American Parkour Forum

Parkour and Freerunning => Parkour And Freerunning => Topic started by: Matthew Lee Willis on January 23, 2006, 11:59:26 AM

Title: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Matthew Lee Willis on January 23, 2006, 11:59:26 AM
         I was thinking about a lot of what has been said about Parkour on these boards, mainly by Mods.  One comment that has stuck in my mind the most is "A speed vault is not Parkour."  I understand the context in which it was presented.  I guess their would be two different ways in my mind to create a tutorial DVD.

1.)  The "Actions" put forth which what can propel you through your environment.  The turn vault, monkey, dash, turn vault etc.

2.)  The mind set.  The philosophy of which has been set in motion.  Also the way that many treat Parkour as a discipline close to martial arts or yoga.


         The way that many of the mods her on APK which consequently are those that are mostly in TRIBE, tend to describe Parkour more in the second fashion.  So this will be interesting what Tribe chooses to do in "TEACHING" those who know nothing about Parkour. 

         I do understand that the official Information will come out before the DVD is released.  I think that this is a big deal if Parkour is represented in a wrong way.  Although, what is the wrong way?  All I guess I have to say is that there is a lot that rides on this tutorial DVD being portrayed accurately.  I know that APK is good about being very general in their explanations of what they represent.  I guess this is why they have titled this DVD, Tutorial DVD, because it doesn't say what the tutorial is representing; aside from  parkour that is for new traceurs.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Skipper on January 23, 2006, 12:17:49 PM
....... Were taking things a bit too literal here. This isnt going to be our sole representation of parkour to the world, this is for people that know nothing of the mindset, the movements, or anything else other than them knowing they want to get into it. This isnt a parkour video, its not to showcase our talents, it is to help people that want a jumpstart in their parkour career. it will show them the BASIC movements that they need to drill before they can even come close to acheiving the mindset (i saw acheiving because that is the only way to understand the mindset, it cant be taught through a dvd).

Again, this is not our portrayal of parkour to the world, this is a tutorial dvd for the movements, furthering the development of new minds to the parkour community. understand?
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: JumpOff on January 23, 2006, 12:29:39 PM
hmm, good point matthew


"the movements" of what? of parkour? what are "movements" of parkour? Are you teaching general motion? A track runner can teach how to jump....


i'm also interested to see how this DVD will turn out....
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Flippusmn on January 23, 2006, 12:46:08 PM
Quote
Were taking things a bit too literal here. This isnt going to be our sole representation of parkour to the world, this is for people that know nothing of the mindset, the movements, or anything else other than them knowing they want to get into it.

Well at some point it may be a good idea to make a representation of Parkour atleast to America right? Later make a video that shows who the Tribe is and what there purpose is, it may be in this one for all I know ???.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Skipper on January 23, 2006, 12:54:16 PM
of course we will make a movie along the lines. but thats besides the point.

Jump, lets not kid ourselves. yes parkour is the mindset, but the first steps to getting that mindset is to drill a few basic movements. We all did it when we started. you might know these moves as kongs, turnvaults, catleaps, rolls, etc. you know exactly what were talking about when we say the 'movements' of parkour. the movements that tend to be more efficient than others. we all know them, theres no denying that  ;) ;)

you learn the movements, you find ways to link them together, and then you begin to understand what parkour is truly about. like m2 said, if youre not new to parkour, dont waste your time buying it  ;)
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: ERI104 on January 23, 2006, 01:16:32 PM
i'll buy a copy for all my friends :D
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Mike "Pyro" Araujo on January 23, 2006, 01:32:57 PM
a speed vault is not parokur?????
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: BULLFROG on January 23, 2006, 01:37:15 PM
a speed vault is not parokur?????

yeah, i didn't understand that either
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Skipper on January 23, 2006, 01:41:50 PM
Ok, what we mean by saying a speed vault is not parkour is that no single move can possibly make up parkour. Seeing as parkour is the mindset and going through an environment efficiently, just doing a speed vault alone does not justify the movement as parkour. same goes with a kong. if you just do a kong and nothing else (you might be showing a friend what a kong looks like, or just drilling kongs, etc), you arent doing parkour. if you begin running and do a kong to overcome an obstacle, and then continue running, doing other moves to successfully interact with your environment efficiently, then you are doing parkour.

i hope that helps those who didnt get what we were saying before  :)
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: BULLFROG on January 23, 2006, 02:04:15 PM
ahh...now its clarified...thanks skipper

i understand everything about parkour, its concept and mindset and all that...i'm not a newbie...been training for a year, but that comment caught me off gaurd, because i didn't quite understand what that meant.

thats what i tell everyone here in canada (toronto) also, parkour is not about specific movements, its about the "mindset" of parkour that makes it parkour.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Skipper on January 23, 2006, 02:13:52 PM
Im glad it helped. and yes, it is about the mindset, but you cant tell me that you never spent any time drilling the individual moves. you have to teach your muscles how to move, as well as your body. and with such a physical demand, you cant just tell yourself "act efficient"... you have to master the movements to a point where you dont even think about the movement.

You have to drill kongs until youre not afraid to do them, i know i though about it really hard when i first learned kongs! haha
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Brian Belida on January 23, 2006, 02:16:22 PM
Well, it looks like skipper is way on top of this :]
But to draw another hopefully helpful point, you can't look at it as having mastered one specific move because then you really are pretty much just jumping. Albeit you are building proficiency in that one technique, it's still just one jump / vault / move. I remember the first day I realized that parkour is much more than that, when I realized I had to really work on the transitions; takeoffs, landings that continue smoothly into running or another technique, not stutter stepping.
It was a lot I had never thought about! And it gave me a lot to work on, opened my eyes to more possibilites, and superified my understanding of parkour =D.

There's a more complete thought there somewhere, but my brain is still a bit thrown off from 17 hours of travel back from a Jan Term class and starting school today, 3 days later :p.

EDIT : Having seen skipper's new post, yeah I remember the first night I went out and it was so hard to get "how the heck do I do a kong vault like I saw in that video?"
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Gearsighted on January 23, 2006, 03:52:07 PM
Parkour is much like a martial art. There are many movements that, over time, have become standards for their usefulness in multiple situations. Just like a single strike in and of itself isn't a martial art, a vault, jump, etc. by itself isn't Parkour. These movements are only tools with which to build your movement upon, but they are only a jumping off point towards limitless variations that occur when you attain a certain mindfulness in movement and stop thinking about each individual move seperately.

This is why M2 said that this video will be for absolute newbies who don't have more experienced people to learn from. It will give them a good base of functional movement to start with, from there on it is up to them to hone, perfect and then enhance this essential mindset of Parkour in their own environments and with their growing understanding of the most effecient patterns of movement for any given situation.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Michael Zernow on January 23, 2006, 04:02:14 PM
Then again you can buy it if you really want to even if you aren't a beginner just to see the awesome work by Mike which, as you know if you've seen Dispersion, is really incredible.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Gareth EE Field on January 23, 2006, 04:38:14 PM
AHHH!!! Too much metaparkour!
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: andi k on January 23, 2006, 09:53:49 PM
Quote
what we mean by saying a speed vault is not parkour is that no single move can possibly make up parkour.

no ? if you go to the bus, notice youre late, and dont walk around the wall but do ONE speedvault, and then you have reached the bus, its NOT parkour then ?

Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Ryan Ford on January 23, 2006, 09:59:01 PM
touche andi. ;)

but in most cases, parkour consists of more than one single movement.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Matthew Lee Willis on January 23, 2006, 10:49:05 PM
I thought this would start an uproar of discussions.  I just think that people should think about this.  Can you truly teach what parkour is by trying to explain it to them by defined movements.  I think that in this case the Video should be called something else.  I think that this should some how be labeled (since it is going to be the first of what I explained) Parkour Training DVD.  I know that the people here like to use that word "training" so I think that this might solve a problem of what exactly is going on with this DVD.

I guess this is touching into the realm of what someone else posted here about "Its it possible to capture Parkour on Video?"  I will not sure my views on this but I feel that it is in the same line.  I feel that there should just be a line drawn around what exactly this DVD is doing.  I also liken this unto Urban Free Flow when they put up their tutorials page.  They had some obviously non-100% efficient movements.  Yes they were studying under the Freestyle umbrella.  There was a big problem with what people were saying was PARKOUR.  I feel that is the DVD is explained correctly before it is release that it might help some understanding of what TRIBE is trying to show instead of getting flamed.

Tribe has not shown us directly what they represent but we all assume that they will try to represent Parkour in its fullest.  I know that in Dispersion a DVD released by APK with the clan from VA-Parkour, they did Parkour and flips.  This is just something I don't want to go wrong with this New tutorial DVD, try to represent what True Parkour is all about. (The mindset, the philosophy)

On Another note- I would have to Agree with Andi.  You had a goal in mind...to save yourself (a walk) and you use your parkour mindset of overcoming physical obstacles to accomplish your goal.  I would call it Parkour. ;)  Although True Demon; there is a reason why we always say obstacle(s)
         Also a way that the comment was used "A speed vault is not Parkour" can go further.  It is the fact that Parkour is a mindset...with a goal behind it.  A discipline, a philosophy not a certain movement.  That would be confining it....WHICH is what I was trying to represent with this whole post.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Tyson Cecka on January 24, 2006, 02:07:57 AM
I was the one who posted that thread originally getting people to think about how one comes to understand Parkour. I don't think that someone is going to be able to watch this DVD and then go, "ah Parkour, I understand everything now," and I don't think that is what it is meant to be anyway. This a just some tutorials on basic movements that are very helpful in Parkour.

I think the name is fine and I don't think it's proper to already be questioning the Tribe before they have even come out with much of anything... Hope that was helpful.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: klaymen on January 24, 2006, 02:48:28 AM
Quote
what we mean by saying a speed vault is not parkour is that no single move can possibly make up parkour.

no ? if you go to the bus, notice youre late, and dont walk around the wall but do ONE speedvault, and then you have reached the bus, its NOT parkour then ?



i think what he meant was that no single movement is parkour. as in, if you are just doing a speed vault to be doing one, it is not parkour. there are certain places where a speed vault would not be the best movement. the point of him saying that was that people are focusing too much on the movements instead of the actual journey. i'm sure you would agree, that if someone is just speed vaulting a rail back and forth because they think it looks cool, it would not be parkour.

EDIT: @MLW-

va-parkour doesn't have a clan. i don't think there are any clans in the VA/DC/MD area. hopefully it will stay that way.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Skipper on January 24, 2006, 03:40:49 AM
Ahhh, you would be right in that case andi. I meant it in the most literal sense, to do a speedvault just to do a speedvault. not to get anywhere, but to practice doing a speedvault. this is why i mentioned
Quote
you might be showing a friend what a kong looks like, or just drilling kongs, etc
.... so i could drill the point further. i know you understand what i meant by it.  ;)
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Mark Toorock on January 24, 2006, 05:39:23 AM
I think there are two things going on in this thread, and they are common problems in our little microcosm :)

MLW:
Quote
might solve a problem of what exactly is going on with this DVD.

OK, the "Problem" here is that THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

Personally, I don't give a shit what other people in the community think we should call it and EXACTLY how it should be worded. As I said in my first post about this (note the message hasn't changed here) This DVD is for the beginners to learn some of the basic movements that will later help them as they learn Parkour. The other thing I said is we're not going to even try to please everyone.


Now, the other thing going on is the whole "what is parkour and can it be defined by movement".
I've said for a while now that I will write an essay on "The progression of learning Parkour" ... and this is a good time for it, maybe I'll do it next week on my vacation.

The "problem" here is that people (including Andi) can very easily use both sides of the same argument when it is convenient.
I can say "one move isn't parkour" and be right (because of the circumstances, etc)
I can say "one move isn't parkour" and be wrong (because of the circumstances, etc)

This same thing can be used with flips and ANY other movement, shape, physical effort that the human body can make.

So, the real "problem" to me here is that people like adversity. We like to have something to argue about, we like to have something that gets us fired up, and this is what makes us great, it is part of what being social and inquisitive creatures is all about.

As for the "Can one move be parkour" argument, I'd like to say for beginners, telling them that is too confusing, it is better for them to grasp the concept by thinking of more than one movement, so that they get the concept of "urgency" even between movements. Because I believe that Parkour is a concept and not a description of a physical activity.
However then, once someone has a grasp of the concept, I believe you can talk about single moves, flips, whatever else and have a reasonable discussion.
The IMPORTANT part to me is NOT to CONFUSE people who are new to Parkour.
Me, American Parkour, the mods, we're not here to try to educate people who know what Parkour is, they don't need it. We're hear to help new people understand it.
The DVD is not meant to teach people "What is Parkour", it is meant to teach people basic movements that will be useful to them once they learn Parkour.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Brian Belida on January 24, 2006, 06:16:30 AM
Tribe has not shown us directly what they represent but we all assume that they will try to represent Parkour in its fullest.  I know that in Dispersion a DVD released by APK with the clan from VA-Parkour, they did Parkour and flips.  This is just something I don't want to go wrong with this New tutorial DVD, try to represent what True Parkour is all about. (The mindset, the philosophy)

Dispersion was first made with no intention at all to be released by APK specifically. We started it and had finished film quite a bit before the APK site was totally up and running. Dispersion was shot over the summer of 2005 as a Mike Yamrus / Merry Men project that we had no idea what was going to happen with it. APK popped up and The Merry Men in all of their merry goodness wanted to contribute some content to APK to help it become a well respected site with... well... good content!
I think you've been on the message boards long enough to know at least most of the Tribe Members level of understanding of Parkour and desire to represent it *bangs fist on chest twice then throws out peace sign* I hope that clears up any misunderstanding of Dispersion.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: JumpOff on January 24, 2006, 06:41:40 AM
Yeah, Dispersion was done as a Merry Men/VA Parkour production...no affiliation to APK or Tribe....


Quote
It is the fact that Parkour is a mindset...

Isn't parkour action? Since actions are stronger than word/mind?
In this sense, the "fundemental/tutorial" DVD makes sense.  It is a culminating effort between "The Tribe" to offer the visual and analytical breakdowns (in their words at least) of the "common" "moves" or parkour.  Yes, it is true that you really can't learn something until you try it and until it becomes clear to you(I remember, that I couldn't get a kong for the longest time no matter how many videos and tutorials I read), but it does help.  You are able to get so much inspiration and help from even WATCHING something.  Personally, I can't learn anything new unless I watch it happen and work it out in my head(like tricking)....  On the same note, isn't UFF releasing a "tutorial" video too? whats happening with that?
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: BULLFROG on January 24, 2006, 06:44:48 AM
that is so true, about drilling the basic movements till you become alot more proficient at them. when i first started training, i did do stutter steps and just "vault" and land, and thats it, then walk back around and vault again, and land, etc...etc, people don't think about trying to work on the little things of the movement, like take-off ( split-foot takeoff), control of your body while in the air, the hand placement on the object, the pushoff gaining the height and distance you want, then into a smooth landing to run.

it took me awhile to comprehend the actual doing it smoothly, quickly and none of this vault and stop-landings.

what alot people don't understand is that doing the movements isn't parkour...its just a medium to achieve your goal.

through drilling and "perfecting" movements that you will be able to do parkour with ease and effiencency.

hopefully the dvd your guys are working on, will convey that message of drill the basic movements but also talk about being safe and not going for the big stuff.

oh, one more thing..i'm pretty sure you guys will say on the dvd the difference between doing parkour and training for parkour, but i'd just like to be safe and ask if you are.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Mark Toorock on January 24, 2006, 07:05:57 AM
Quote
just like to be safe and ask if you are.

Again, MISSING THE POINT.

You'd like to be safe? Wear a helmet :P

What if we do? What if we don't?

What will be the outcome for the new people who buy the DVD? That is the important answer in my mind, not "what this community FEELS should be the perfect wording and everything that needs to be said in EXACTLY a certain way".

There is a very clear description of "What Parkour Is" on this site for example. Could it be better? YES! Of course! Could it be worse? sure. There is a very clear definition on PAWA ... could it be better? YES!

There is no "One size fits all" solution for things. things almost always need supporting information and context to be properly conveyed and understood.

So, everyone is welcome to buy a copy of the DVD when it comes out and do a full critique, either word for word, sentence by sentence, or however they choose, but it won't change the product, and it won't chenge the product's effectiveness in helping new people understand some of the basic movements that are useful in Parkour.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Matthew Lee Willis on January 24, 2006, 07:12:00 AM
I am truly please to hear from you M2.  I guess there was a conflict in my mind.
Quote
The DVD is not meant to teach people "What is Parkour", it is meant to teach people basic movements that will be useful to them once they learn Parkour.

Thank You for answering my Concern.  So it is great that you have said this because it gives some backing to what the DVD is all about.  I never meant to argue with anyone on this matter I was just concerned.  I hope that the message you portrayed  M2 is able to be conveyed the way you want in the DVD.  I was not trying to be argumentative but from my past history of defensiveness I might come off that way.  BEST OF LUCK TRIBE.

OK...there is no VA Clan.  I said clan, because it is a culmination of people getting together to practice something.  I didn't mean exactly they they were a formal group.  Although, they have shirts and stuff, I don't know what you would call them.  I guess just a group of practitioners.

About Dispersion and APK-  I understand that it was done during the summer.  Although APK has to take responsibility for anything that they are "sponsoring" on their front page.  This is why there is an association between the two.

Mods- Akh I in no way am trying to degrade the value of the knowledge and ambition to share that knowledge of the mods.  The only question that I had has now been answered.

Jumpoffmyroof- I could have explained parkour as an action but you have to have the mindset to have the action or you could be doing FXW or something.  Also Tribe just Sprung from Zeus (M2) head.  I understand that they have nothing to do with dispersion.

Thank you again M2 for flatting the situation.  I am happy that Tribe has chosen this way of explaining "Parkour."  THE BEST OF LUCK TO YOU ALL!!!!
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Brian Belida on January 24, 2006, 09:11:10 AM
Excellent! And thanks for the luck, although I hope we won't need it!
I suppose it should also be mentioned that the people buying the DVD will have gotten word of it through the site and hopefully will take the time before or after to explore the "What is..." and "What isn't..." sections along with philosophy!
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Skipper on January 24, 2006, 11:10:36 AM
And its the va-parkour BAND of merry men. we are a band, not a crew/clan/orgy/etc.

lol.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Matthew Lee Willis on January 24, 2006, 12:34:23 PM
Wow...I expeted more...upriseing then acheivement...I just might make it after all *throws up hat -marry tyler more style-*
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Flippusmn on January 24, 2006, 01:25:30 PM
And its the va-parkour BAND of merry men. we are a band, not a crew/clan/orgy/etc.

lol.

So.. a band has members but there not bound together like a clan. It's basically a clan but less together, sort of what we are here in OHIO. We all train together and interact constantly but were no Krew/clan, we just live in Ohio.  ??? It really is a bit confusing, maybe you (the tribe) would be better off being a clan or just the worshiped of AmericanParkour lol.

In all it really doesn't matter does it.

BTW: what are you talking about Mathew?
Quote
*throws up hat -marry tyler more style-*
? w/e even though it might be a good idea to find out.

P.S. I still might buy a copy to show the new peoples here, it may come in handy. ;)
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: ERI104 on January 24, 2006, 01:41:16 PM
in my opinion the band is a close group of friends that basically run the va-parkour scene which consist of VA MD and DC (VA being the best of course). I think they mean to say that, yeah we're together, but we pk with any/everyone. sometimes clans just train with each other and exclude everyone else like a secret club...but they are not. They're a great group of guys that spreads parkour in a positive way!

Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: BULLFROG on January 24, 2006, 01:42:00 PM
M2 - i'm just saying that if a beginner to parkour, watches your dvd, that the movements you are showing/teaching will make him/her believe that, thats parkour...which as we all know its not.

so i was just wondering if either through a disclaimer or actual audio/video you will tell the "audience" that movements aren't what makes parkour, and that all your doing is showing them the basic movements that they can drill and practice and that they can use to achieve their goal in a parkour situation.

i have no problem with you making the dvd or anything like that, all i'm hoping for is for the dvd to inform them that parkour isn't all about movements, you don't have to go into the detail of explaining parkour, its definition and concept, just to make it clear parkour = not totally about the movements.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Flippusmn on January 24, 2006, 01:48:49 PM
in my opinion the band is a close group of friends that basically run the va-parkour scene which consist of VA MD and DC (VA being the best of course). I think they mean to say that, yeah we're together, but we pk with any/everyone. sometimes clans just train with each other and exclude everyone else like a secret club...but they are not. They're a great group of guys that spreads parkour in a positive way!

You've never been in a band have you. What do you think you do in a band, you don't play with other bands, you play with your band  ;).
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Mark Toorock on January 24, 2006, 02:22:10 PM
Oh good, let's argue about what a band is :x


Please, this is the Parkour Topic, let's try to keep these discussions useful!!

The quality of these forums depends on all of us!
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Flippusmn on January 24, 2006, 02:26:53 PM
Oh good, let's argue about what a band is :x


Please, this is the Parkour Topic, let's try to keep these discussions useful!!

The quality of these forums depends on all of us!

I agree, I am done.  BTW: Bullfrog is waiting for an answer ;).
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Skipper on January 24, 2006, 02:38:08 PM
just further clarification. Flippusmn, you said a band is like a crew only it isnt bound together. think, past tense of band is banded... but thats not right, the term for banded is bound. how can a band not be bound.

and for even further clarification, why are you taking it THIS serious?  :P the name is obviously a joke, our little way of poking fun at people who get caught up with being in a crew, lol.

no more debate about this guys, M2 is implying that if our current trend continues, the quality of the boards will go down. i still have hope, so dont screw it up please  :)
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Matthew Lee Willis on January 24, 2006, 11:02:38 PM
Bullfrog.  You are basicly stateing what I have stated.  It was answered and I found myself to be a merry man myslef. 

Side note- Merry Tyler Moore....you un educated @#$)@&# LOL j/k It was a show on Nick at Night.  At the end of the SONG and Opening Sequece she throws her hat up in the air when the song shouts out...I THINK I AM GOING TO MAKE IT AFTER ALL!  I hope that clarified it for ya.
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: BULLFROG on January 25, 2006, 05:56:22 AM
where was it answered, i don't remember?
Title: Re: TRIBES NEW DVD
Post by: Matthew Lee Willis on January 25, 2006, 07:50:22 AM
my second to last post on page 2...I quote M2.