American Parkour Forum

Parkour and Freerunning => Parkour And Freerunning => Topic started by: Chris Seaton on October 28, 2010, 11:08:30 AM

Title: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on October 28, 2010, 11:08:30 AM
PLEASE READ CAREFULLY BEFORE POSTING.

I'd appreciate it if someone who has mod powers would sticky this for future reference. 

A recent front page article concerning some traceurs in Ireland (http://www.americanparkour.com/content/view/5848/1/) who faced court charges for trespassing sparked my interest in writing a front page APK piece concerning what constitutes trespassing.  Because of my position in the community, and my professional status as an attorney, I feel a need to make sure my brothers and sisters in the movement understand what exactly constitutes trespassing and how you can comply with the laws. 

I have submitted an initial article for front page consideration that will hopefully be posted soon.  It covers the basic definition of trespassing and how it can affect you while training.  That being said, I would like to open the doors to you, the APK community, as far as the subject of trespassing is concerned. 

So that being said: What questions do you have about trespassing? 

Before you post, here are the guidelines: 

1. Do not ask for specific legal advice concerning a situation.  I am not allowed to provide such advice, and will not place myself in a position where a potential attorney-client relationship could be construed. 

2. Make your question as coherent as possible.  This means using punctuation for a change, proper capitalization, spelling, and grammar. 

3. Please do not ask questions that are specific to a particular state.  I am licensed to practice in one jurisdiction at the present time: Tennessee.  While I am working on expanding that base, if I answer a question that involves another state's laws I could be hit with a charge of "Unauthorized Practice of Law," which could lead to a revocation of my license.  So it's not going to get answered. 

This thread will stay up for one week, I will collect the questions that fit the three requirements listed, and then write a new piece that will answer those questions as best possible. 

Hit me with your best shot, people :)

--C
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: David Lout on October 28, 2010, 11:24:03 AM
What are the punitive measures given if one is caught on a property where there is a "No Trespassing" sign? Does that constitute a fair warning, and therefore punishment for not leaving when the police arrive?
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on October 28, 2010, 11:52:09 AM
What are the punitive measures given if one is caught on a property where there is a "No Trespassing" sign? Does that constitute a fair warning, and therefore punishment for not leaving when the police arrive?

I am quoting this to show what a proper question should look like. Nicely done.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Josh Boggs on October 28, 2010, 12:17:26 PM
I am quoting this to show what a proper question should look like. Nicely done.
ANSWER! :D
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on October 28, 2010, 01:03:01 PM
ANSWER! :D

READ THE ORIGINAL POST.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: John George 'JG' on October 28, 2010, 08:33:43 PM
Is there a chance of getting charged with Disorderly Conduct for practicing Parkour if we get stopped by an irate officer? This is concerning only the act of practicing Parkour, and not how the Traceur acts towards the officer.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: jp2ykz on October 29, 2010, 01:18:32 AM
I'm not sure if this first question falls under state law or if it is common to all states but my second question should apply nationally. As far as the rest of them, they should all be the same everywhere but I'm no lawyer so I don't know and hence I am asking.

Can you be charged with trespassing on state property when there are no signs and the area is open to the public?

Can you be charged with trespassing on federal property when there are no signs and the area is open to the public?

Are there additional penalties for trespassing on federal property?

What kind of offense is trespassing. I.e. misdemeanor, felony etc.?

What are some common penalties for trespassing?

Are you aware of any cases of extreme penalties for trespassing being handed down in the courts?
 
If you are told to leave state or federal property, how long do you have to leave for if no time frame is specified?

If there are signs prohibiting certain activities but that do not specifically prohibit parkour, dose that constitute fair warning?

What is fair warning?

Do you have to be warned to leave or stop doing parkour on a property that is otherwise open to the public in order to be charged with trespassing?   

Can dangerous activities supersede the need to be warned?

Dose parkour necessarily constitute dangerous activity?

 
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on October 29, 2010, 11:28:58 AM
I'm going to call you JP for sake of ease. 

All of those are good, and I may answer more than one of them. 

Keep 'em coming, people.  You're sparking my curiosity.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Anthony Ruiz on October 29, 2010, 06:32:32 PM
I havent seen an answer maybe im just not understanding this.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: unger on October 29, 2010, 06:40:23 PM
I dont understand your posting here to answer our questions, but you cant answer any questions that we ask you?
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on October 29, 2010, 08:35:08 PM
*sigh*

Read the original post. 

This thread is here to collect the questions so that I can answer the most intelligent and coherent ones in a front page APK post later.

They will not be answered on the forum. 

Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: PicturesOnTheWall on October 29, 2010, 09:07:05 PM
LOLOL N00BS JUST DO A BACK FLIP OVER THE COP CAR
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Andy Keller on October 29, 2010, 11:15:58 PM
LOLOL N00BS JUST DO A BACK FLIP OVER THE COP CAR

Example of what NOT to post. Pictures, please refrain from nonsense.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on October 30, 2010, 03:15:16 AM
Thank you, Andy. 
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: hfksla on October 30, 2010, 05:22:46 AM
If a store recently closed down, and is unoccupied. Is it legal to train there? In other words, is it considered trespassing?
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: RadicalFacePlanter on October 30, 2010, 07:34:28 AM
Have to ask, but is it ok to build equipments on private property if there are nobody residing, improving, or claiming property there for at least 3/4 miles radius?  (I think the timber company probably owns it since west virginia is full of trees and if not, then government owns it.)
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Jacob Carter on October 30, 2010, 08:04:56 AM
If you were being chased and needed to go on private property to get away to a safe location (e.g. rooftops) could you still be charged with trespassing if caught there?
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on October 30, 2010, 09:03:16 AM
If you were being chased and needed to go on private property to get away to a safe location (e.g. rooftops) could you still be charged with trespassing if caught there?

This is a really good one and I'm marking it down for use because it's something that us traceurs have a legit need to know for our training.  At least I think so anyway.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Patrick Witbrod on November 01, 2010, 05:33:36 AM
If you were training at a public park with no one around that you could see and out of nowhere a child between the ages of 6 and 14 appears. Not seeing the child in time you fall on or vault into or roll onto. Could you get into legal trouble and if so how severe could it become? Would it be a criminal charge like assault or reckless endangerment or would it be a civil charge where you would have to pay restitution or both?
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on November 01, 2010, 05:42:55 PM
If you were training at a public park with no one around that you could see and out of nowhere a child between the ages of 6 and 14 appears. Not seeing the child in time you fall on or vault into or roll onto. Could you get into legal trouble and if so how severe could it become? Would it be a criminal charge like assault or reckless endangerment or would it be a civil charge where you would have to pay restitution or both?

Patrick, this is a really good question.  However, I'm not going to answer it in this upcoming article, because it doesn't have to do with trespassing. 

Fret not: there's another article coming which will (hopefully) answer this question for you later.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: mospunk on November 02, 2010, 09:16:18 AM
Mr. Seaton, Esquire,

Why, in the first place, would a traceur be cited for trespassing while training on public, state-owned land (such as a park or university), a place where people train or do other physical activities such as ultimate frisbee, soccer, martial arts, and the like?

Are there particular uses deemed for properties owned and run by the state or city (ie. universities or parks), which would deem non-intended uses, such as Parkour, as a reason to cite for trespassing?

Assuming that no destruction to property, disturbing or endangering the general public, or any other laws are being broken, is trespassing the only obstacle for a traceur training in a public space aka the only thing they can get busted for?
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Shawn Yang on November 02, 2010, 10:19:04 AM
Does a resident of, say, an old people's home have the right to force us to leave if we were training on their front staris type thing? Or does only a super have that kind of right?
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Robert M. on November 02, 2010, 06:18:10 PM
I have a question.
Is it trespassing if I were to have something like a Parcube or other parkour items in the park and was off to myself or with a group in a clearing? Especially contrasting to a family that may bring their own grills, bikes etc. We both have our own materials and are using public property.

I'm rereading and feel like it may be confusing as stated. New wording: Does it become trespassing in a park because of my items being relatively unknown and foreign to my community compared to another group's items?
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: xuwenli200888 on November 02, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
I have submitted an initial article for front page consideration that will hopefully be posted soon.  It covers the basic definition of trespassing and how it can affect you while training.  That being said, I would like to open the doors to you, the APK community,ed hardy clothes (http://www.edhardytime.org/) as far as the subject of trespassing is concerned.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Austin"Yoshi" on November 02, 2010, 07:25:03 PM
They should of known better....
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on November 03, 2010, 03:07:52 AM
I have submitted an initial article for front page consideration that will hopefully be posted soon.  It covers the basic definition of trespassing and how it can affect you while training.  That being said, I would like to open the doors to you, the APK community,ed hardy clothes (http://www.edhardytime.org/) as far as the subject of trespassing is concerned.

Hello spambot. 

Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on November 03, 2010, 03:08:20 AM
They should of known better....

This is not a question.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: RadicalFacePlanter on November 04, 2010, 03:36:15 AM
Hello, not a question in particular, but I dug up some information reguarding tresspassing which answered my question and some questions some others asked.

"
Knowedge
•The trespass laws in most states require that the trespasser have some level of knowledge that the property is private. Knowledge can be inferred due to a fence, some other marker, or posted "no trespassing" or "private property" signs. Other states require that, in the absence of knowledge that you are trespassing, you must actually cause damage to the property in order for the owner to recover damages from you. Knowledge is almost always required for criminal charges to be brought. "

Hope I'm not intruding (and not intending to make assumptions since your the attorney  ;D), just wanted to share some of my findings.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Shawn Yang on November 04, 2010, 08:13:19 AM
question:
would canadian laws differ from state laws?
:S
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on November 04, 2010, 08:54:05 AM
Thanks for all the questions, folks.  I've printed this entire thread off, and will start sifting through the questions. 

Because of time constraints (and because we preach efficiency here) I'm only going to be able to answer 10 of these.   Fear not--there's a lot of common themes that run through these questions, and I'm going to pick ten that will answer the most concerns as possible. 

Mods, if someone would lock this thread I'd appreciate it. 

Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Robert M. on November 04, 2010, 10:47:15 AM
Before the mods lock this thread, I just want to say thank you. Thanks for taking the time to address the subject. Thanks for taking time to get individual questions. Some people don't mix their business with their pleasure, but by doing this, you sort of are, and I want to say thanks for that as well.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Shawn Yang on November 04, 2010, 01:39:35 PM
I agree
I also thank you for this
:D
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Patrick Witbrod on November 04, 2010, 07:08:43 PM
Yes thank you very much.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Chris Seaton on November 28, 2010, 02:15:19 PM
No problem folks.  Sorry there's been no posting as of the answers yet, I've been swamped at work. 

I will try to get to these this week.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: mickeynotmouse on November 28, 2010, 08:40:00 PM
Mr. Seaton, Esquire,



I lol'd
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: pancakerz on January 12, 2011, 08:26:56 PM
OP is an attorney free runner eh? that's awesome!

by day he pushes pencils.
by night he pushes himself...to the limits.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: mikez195 on January 24, 2011, 08:10:34 PM
we should stand up for our rights its a f#cking sport we deserve to train where eva where does it say no parkour/freerunning and its not like we damage anything a wall flip isnt gunna break ur brick wall god whats the world come to and idk they just always give me a warning and if cops come im training in parkour i get arrested then i will sew them for false charges because this shits bull crap we should b able to freerun and or do parkour where ever i feel like this will b a growing problem for us and end up becomeing very difficult to train because of the asshole laws
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: Andy Keller on January 24, 2011, 08:56:23 PM
we should stand up for our rights its a f#cking sport we deserve to train where eva where does it say no parkour/freerunning and its not like we damage anything a wall flip isnt gunna break ur brick wall god whats the world come to and idk they just always give me a warning and if cops come im training in parkour i get arrested then i will sew them for false charges because this shits bull crap we should b able to freerun and or do parkour where ever i feel like this will b a growing problem for us and end up becomeing very difficult to train because of the asshole laws

Dude. Punctuation.
Title: Re: Know Your Laws: Trespassing--Ask the Ace Attorney
Post by: slowbuildingclimber16 on February 02, 2011, 02:43:12 PM
If there isnt a no tresspassing sign for like a school but there is a fence and you get caught can u still go to court??