American Parkour Forum

Parkour and Freerunning => Parkour And Freerunning => Topic started by: aarontp on August 25, 2010, 12:22:01 PM

Title: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: aarontp on August 25, 2010, 12:22:01 PM
Watching videos about Parkour, when the people are high up, instead of just jumping and excecuting a roll, they'll do crazy crap like a backflip or a frontflip (which isn't really crazy...just stupid), and I wanted to know...what's the practicallity of doing something like that.

Or was I watching a video of Freerunning/Tricking, not Parkour?

If there is some practical application of a backflip, can I have a link to a tutorial?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Alex Melusky on August 25, 2010, 12:25:41 PM
If a video is all parkour but one flip, does it become a free running video? Most flips people throw into videos are random ones for fun (unless it is a free running video). If there were only a couple flips throughout the video, then you shouldn't be worrying. After all, David Belle does flips, so they should have some merit.

On practicality: I have an amazing sense of air awareness now because I practice flips. If I mess up, I usually land on my feet or land in a way that doesn't hurt me.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: midnight46 on August 25, 2010, 01:20:14 PM
i know what u mean every time i type in parkour or watch jam videos on youtube its mostly people doing flips
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Ozzi on August 25, 2010, 01:55:04 PM
Parkour - Freerunning - Art du duplacement

All disciplines dedicated to movement emphasizing on efficiency of performance.

While some may think flips are inefficient, they are another way to challenge ones body to be controlled even on situation where you find yourself up side down. just like mentioned above.

Once you one become proficient with regular type training, its only another way to find a new method to challenge your skills. Flips do that very well with body and mind (fears)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Alec Furtado on August 25, 2010, 02:38:26 PM
Physically: Flips are fantastic for developing air awareness and pursuing the limits of your own movement.

Mentally: The incredible focus and control that flips require in combination with breaking through the mental barriers to do them (which most have at some point) can really complete your ability as a traceur.

Socially :P: You don't have to explain to people that you don't do flips when they discover that you train parkour.

Emotionally: The are very freeing and great fun.

Financially: I've made $2 so far though my "Backflip = $1" t-shirt (purchased from Ryan Ford, though I still have 18 backflips to break even).
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: DaveS on August 25, 2010, 03:27:29 PM
Sometimes it can be useful to divide Parkour into two aspects. There is the exploration part, and the achieving part. When you are exploring you care mostly about new experiences because that's the only thing that helps you learn. When you are achieving you care mostly about fundamental abilities, because that's the part that helps you get better at other things.

Practising flips and 'non-efficient movement' can be useful for many people as part of an exploration of what is possible through practicing movement. They are a way of giving yourself an opportunity for limitless creativity, letting you concentrate on the 'new' rather than on the 'necessary'. There are other ways of approaching this, but this type of training is essential in ensuring your training as a whole is effective.
However, the price for removing limits is that you don't get practice maintaining the focus necessary for working with situations that have limits. Every real situation has limits of some kind, and so this type of training is also an essential part for your training as a whole to be effective.

Practically speaking, you're going to need to spend time being creative and also spend time being focused. You get to choose how much of each :)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Macgyver 0. on August 25, 2010, 04:24:27 PM
thats free-running then.  I have to agree with you though, I never understood flips...
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 26, 2010, 09:51:11 AM
thats free-running then.  I have to agree with you though, I never understood flips...

Careful - the distinction is of major debate (all-too-often I'm sad to say).

As for the usefulness and efficiency of flips, here's an example: Let's say you have a rail or wall that's about neck-high to clear and a gap below as well, and the landing surface is lower than the take-off surface, to the point that a dive roll would be imprudent. A running front may be the most efficient way to clear that obstacle without injury or slowing down significantly. It's very dependent on your abilities, the situation, the necessity of speed, etc.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: aarontp on August 26, 2010, 05:33:04 PM
That makes sense, the whole: "to challenge yourself thing", like in Martial Arts, when you master the basics, they give you new forms that hurt like hell. Thanks. Though I won't be doing a backflip any time soon lol   :D
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Alex Melusky on August 26, 2010, 05:48:41 PM
Careful - the distinction is of major debate (all-too-often I'm sad to say).

As for the usefulness and efficiency of flips, here's an example: Let's say you have a rail or wall that's about neck-high to clear and a gap below as well, and the landing surface is lower than the take-off surface, to the point that a dive roll would be imprudent. A running front may be the most efficient way to clear that obstacle without injury or slowing down significantly. It's very dependent on your abilities, the situation, the necessity of speed, etc.

To go along with this: You can also get more distance from a front flip than you can from just jumping. You can dive out farther in a flip, and the flip itself gives more distance. If there is a long gap and the only way to reach it was through this technique, it would be better to at least know it before learning it on the spot.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FrostySTL on August 26, 2010, 07:00:33 PM
To go along with this: You can also get more distance from a front flip than you can from just jumping. You can dive out farther in a flip, and the flip itself gives more distance.

Ummm, huh? I know I'm kinda new to this, and can't do a flip, but this makes no sense. It sounds like you are saying I can jump over larger gaps if I do a front flip across them, instead of just jumping.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Alex Melusky on August 27, 2010, 04:05:24 AM
To go along with this: You can also get more distance from a front flip than you can from just jumping. You can dive out farther in a flip, and the flip itself gives more distance.

Ummm, huh? I know I'm kinda new to this, and can't do a flip, but this makes no sense. It sounds like you are saying I can jump over larger gaps if I do a front flip across them, instead of just jumping.

Not necessarily gaps, but you you get more distance. When you just jump, your feet or pointed to the ground . With the flip, your head will be where your feet usually are. To land, you rotate back to your feet, giving you that extra bit of distance.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dom Rocco on August 27, 2010, 05:43:16 AM
Here's an under-discussed topic
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 27, 2010, 08:32:51 AM
its a really interesting topic too.  ;)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dom Rocco on August 27, 2010, 10:20:01 AM
its a really interesting topic too.  ;)

Well to each his own but reading the same exact arguments worded 100 different ways is not something I find particularly interesting and this goes on multiple times per week, if not daily
What new ground do you expect to turn up in this thread?
Will this finally be the thread that ends the discussion and gives everyone involved the closure they need to move on from this tired discussion because someone interjects something new that everybody agrees with?
Probably not
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: aarontp on August 27, 2010, 10:25:49 AM
@Dam (or Dom...), the problem with people like me is we come into something, and try to figure things out like they are lol. Every time a novice enters something, he'll have questions. I had questions that my Martial Arts instructors heard a thousand times-there's no foolproof way to prevent questions from being asked again.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dom Rocco on August 27, 2010, 10:36:35 AM
How many times is the reply to a subject just "something something search function"?
Seems like there's a double standard if that can't be applied here too
I just wanted to come in and make a smart ass comment, I'm going to go read something else now
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 27, 2010, 10:41:05 AM
@Dam (or Dom...), the problem with people like me is we come into something, and try to figure things out like they are lol. Every time a novice enters something, he'll have questions. I had questions that my Martial Arts instructors heard a thousand times-there's no foolproof way to prevent questions from being asked again.

btw for future reference, the search bar will help with a lot of beginner questions.
and welcome to the forums.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 27, 2010, 11:20:14 AM
Parkour actually has very little practical application... 99% of what you'll be doing in a real situation is running.

It's all f#cking movement.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: aarontp on August 27, 2010, 11:30:40 AM
Parkour actually has very little practical application... 99% of what you'll be doing in a real situation is running.

It's all f#cking movement.

It's all f*ing awesome movement that I wish to learn lol
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 27, 2010, 01:13:12 PM
Parkour actually has very little practical application... 99% of what you'll be doing in a real situation is running.

It's all f#cking movement.

we aren't arguing over the difference of parkour and freerunning, just explaining to the new people that flips can be practical.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Macgyver 0. on August 27, 2010, 01:33:21 PM
Quote
Parkour actually has very little practical application... 99% of what you'll be doing in a real situation is running.

It's all f#cking movement

I have to disagree actually.  you never mentioned the situtation.  If there is a wall in my way thats between me and a gang, I am going up the wall.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 27, 2010, 02:11:04 PM
I have to disagree actually.  you never mentioned the situtation.  If there is a wall in my way thats between me and a gang, I am going up the wall.
likely not because they could easily grab you as you are climbing up it. or just follow you. your best bet would be to run.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: G. Will. on August 27, 2010, 03:28:18 PM
likely not because they could easily grab you as you are climbing up it. or just follow you. your best bet would be to run.

Look at your avatar. Put thugs behind that guy and imagine them trying to chase him after running down those stairs.

I'd agree "most" situations would be suited to flat out running, but parkour is a nice icing on the cake. :)
Besides, I read that you're not going to be very good if you train only for that situation and not because you enjoy it.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 27, 2010, 03:34:41 PM
At a decent to high level of proficiency and a slight head start I think climbing up say a 12' wall could easily separate you from an angry mob. Moreover, I find very little fear in coming off of a 12' foot edge/roof whereas most laypeople would definitely think twice (or at least injure themselves upon landing).

Side note: No I don't give a @#$% or want to hear about not being on roofs so if you're about to type a "roof police" manifesto go ahead and stow it. If I'm being chased and my life is on the line I am DEFINITELY going on a roof if it serves to help me escape.

In any event, the topic was asking about the practicality of flips, not the practicality of parkour in general.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 27, 2010, 04:05:18 PM
I have to disagree actually.  you never mentioned the situtation.  If there is a wall in my way thats between me and a gang, I am going up the wall.

Why would you be in that situation in the first place?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 27, 2010, 04:12:22 PM
At a decent to high level of proficiency and a slight head start I think climbing up say a 12' wall could easily separate you from an angry mob. Moreover, I find very little fear in coming off of a 12' foot edge/roof whereas most laypeople would definitely think twice (or at least injure themselves upon landing).

Side note: No I don't give a @#$% or want to hear about not being on roofs so if you're about to type a "roof police" manifesto go ahead and stow it. If I'm being chased and my life is on the line I am DEFINITELY going on a roof if it serves to help me escape.

In any event, the topic was asking about the practicality of flips, not the practicality of parkour in general.

also i think its fine if your on roofs because your experienced MThomas. but i don't want new people trying it.
true but...
Why would you be in that situation in the first place?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 27, 2010, 04:43:29 PM
I definitely don't condone new practitioners getting all gung-ho on rooftops, I agree with you there.

As far as being in that situation, a friend of mine was beaten nearly to death and thrown off a bridge last night. I wouldn't have thought he'd be in that situation either but now he's in a coma :-( It's a shitty world.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: max eisenberg on August 27, 2010, 06:00:27 PM
i use parkour all the time at work. it doesnt have to involve running at high speed and getting past ledges or other obstacles.

parkour can be as simple as jumping up to reach product on the top shelf. the most simple, effective way of getting from point a to point b and or completing your goal.

dont over complicate things and you have the idea of parkour.

im probably way behind in the discussion but, i just wanted to throw that out there.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 27, 2010, 06:23:06 PM
i use parkour all the time at work. it doesnt have to involve running at high speed and getting past ledges or other obstacles.

parkour can be as simple as jumping up to reach product on the top shelf. the most simple, effective way of getting from point a to point b and or completing your goal.

dont over complicate things and you have the idea of parkour.

im probably way behind in the discussion but, i just wanted to throw that out there.

Max makes a really good point here.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Austin "iSHREDbanez" on August 27, 2010, 06:58:31 PM
Yep I mean it can happen... From the serious situations to the trivial... Just don't hurt yourself with the trivial :P
The serious ones, dag...
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 27, 2010, 07:01:41 PM
How useful is it to you?  Flips are then incredibly practical if your goal is freerun.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FrostySTL on August 27, 2010, 09:09:44 PM
As far as being in that situation, a friend of mine was beaten nearly to death and thrown off a bridge last night. I wouldn't have thought he'd be in that situation either but now he's in a coma :-( It's a shitty world.

Sorry to hear that bud. What are the chances of recovery? He will be in my thoughts...
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: max eisenberg on August 28, 2010, 07:55:48 AM
How useful is it to you?  Flips are then incredibly practical if your goal is freerun.

if the idea of freerunning is a goal for anyone, some serious thought needs to be put into their training.

your goal cant be an idea. your goal can be to flip from here to there but, not a blanket statement that includes anything possible.
 
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Macgyver 0. on August 28, 2010, 08:23:08 AM
Quote
At a decent to high level of proficiency and a slight head start I think climbing up say a 12' wall could easily separate you from an angry mob. Moreover, I find very little fear in coming off of a 12' foot edge/roof whereas most laypeople would definitely think twice (or at least injure themselves upon landing).

Side note: No I don't give a @#$% or want to hear about not being on roofs so if you're about to type a "roof police" manifesto go ahead and stow it. If I'm being chased and my life is on the line I am DEFINITELY going on a roof if it serves to help me escape.

In any event, the topic was asking about the practicality of flips, not the practicality of parkour in general.

Umm... of course I'm sure alot of people would I would It kind of seemed this was directed towards me.

Quote
Why would you be in that situation in the first place?
Why would you be running?? why not just stay inside all day?If the "is parkour useful" conversation goes like this I'm out.

Quote
i use parkour all the time at work. it doesnt have to involve running at high speed and getting past ledges or other obstacles.

parkour can be as simple as jumping up to reach product on the top shelf. the most simple, effective way of getting from point a to point b and or completing your goal.

dont over complicate things and you have the idea of parkour.

im probably way behind in the discussion but, i just wanted to throw that out there.

This is cool.  and parkour is a great workout  :)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 28, 2010, 09:55:39 AM
Why would you be running?? why not just stay inside all day?If the "is parkour useful" conversation goes like this I'm out.

i think your over estimating how the likely hood of being jumped. it happens, MThomasfreerun's friend is an example, Ive been jumped too. but the odds of it happening aren't too high if you pay attention to your surroundings.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 28, 2010, 10:20:47 AM
A flip could be used to get over a larger gap then you can jump, (as said above by Thomas,) for getting yourself right side up if you'd fallen backwards from somewhere, and flipping over a spiked-topped gate you cannot normally get a good vert jump over.  Those three situations would be the most "common."

If the rest of you wish to talk about the practicality of parkour/freerunning, (or whatever it is you are discussing?) please start a new topic.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 28, 2010, 10:34:54 AM
i really don't think we where discussing the practicality of parkour and freerunning. there was a brief mention, but that's it.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 28, 2010, 10:36:47 AM
i really don't think we where discussing the practicality of parkour and freerunning. there was a brief mention, but that's it.

Didn't specifically mean the practicality of PK/FR, but not talking about the main topic in general.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: hfksla on August 28, 2010, 10:38:09 AM
It's all f#cking movement.
and lets face it... i've wanted to do a flip before i knew what parkour was
(and thats actually how i found out about pk, i was looking at flip tutorials :P)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 28, 2010, 10:39:36 AM
If you believe it's all movement, do you have a place on this forum?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 28, 2010, 12:05:57 PM
If you believe it's all movement, do you have a place on this forum?

yeah, why wouldn't he?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: hfksla on August 28, 2010, 12:16:25 PM
I don't believe that stuff like breakdancing and bboying counts as PK/FR.
but if i throw in a flip or two it doesn't turn my parkour into freerunning or tricking

EDIT: 1,000 post... believe it or not, it was productive ;D
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 28, 2010, 12:36:07 PM
yeah, why wouldn't he?

If he believes "it's all movement," then why be on a parkour forum? Parkour is 'specialized' movement.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 28, 2010, 01:03:20 PM
If he believes "it's all movement," then why be on a parkour forum? Parkour is 'specialized' movement.

seems to me like your putting words in his mouth.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 28, 2010, 01:06:26 PM
seems to me like your putting words in his mouth.

It was directed as a question to anyone who believes "it's all movement," perhaps I should rephrase it?

Why be on a parkour forum if parkour is specialized/type of movement? To complain to those who think otherwise?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 28, 2010, 03:12:03 PM
Sorry to hear that bud. What are the chances of recovery? He will be in my thoughts...


Thank you.  His condition is unchanged and prognosis is...uncertain.

@MacGuyver: I meant no disrespect, in case it came off that way, or to anyone else really. Just a tough weekend.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 28, 2010, 04:44:18 PM
It was directed as a question to anyone who believes "it's all movement," perhaps I should rephrase it?

Why be on a parkour forum if parkour is specialized/type of movement? To complain to those who think otherwise?

hes not saying its not specialized, hes saying when it comes to parkour, freerunning, and ADD they are all movement so why sit around and bicker about small technicalities.

Thank you.  His condition is unchanged and prognosis is...uncertain.

i really hope your friend gets better.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 28, 2010, 04:45:11 PM
hes not saying its not specialized, hes saying when it comes to parkour, freerunning, and ADD they are all movement so why sit around and bicker about small technicalities.

Because that's what makes them different? And that's why you do them?

If he wants to move, so be it. I want to train for parkour.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Sai Chikine on August 28, 2010, 04:55:45 PM
Evan, leave it be. It doesn't matter what's called what. We all move our bodies don't we?

btw.... B!tch counter...
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 28, 2010, 04:58:22 PM
It's pointless arguing over ideology, go train.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: aarontp on August 29, 2010, 11:57:10 AM
precisely. while ya'll were arguing over who knows what, I climbed a ten foot wall (score).

Also, I never said it was just movements, I was just countering what that one person said about it being movements. It's an art, just like Kung Fu, basically (form, or art, or whatever you wish to call it)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 29, 2010, 12:05:18 PM
precisely. while ya'll were arguing over who knows what, I climbed a ten foot wall (score).

Also, I never said it was just movements, I was just countering what that one person said about it being movements. It's an art, just like Kung Fu, basically (form, or art, or whatever you wish to call it)

don't think anyone here is arguing. good job on the wall btw.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 29, 2010, 01:21:24 PM
This comment is aimed at the OP, but could be interesting to consider for anybody else in this discussion, despite its length. Stranger things have happened.

Parkour, as described by David Belle, is primarily concerned with your ability to react in an emergency. David identifies heavily with the MN motto "be strong to be useful", meaning that we aim to develop and cultivate strength (mental and physical) so that we can help people (including ourselves) in sticky situations. David said to imagine that you are in an emergency and then you will know what parkour was meant to be. With this in mind, here's what I want to add.

From the very beginning, a key aspect of training which will guide your direction and how you are seen by the community is your sense of priority. In descending order, what are the most useful skills to have in parkour which will equip you to deal with emergency situations (and by extension, life in general)? Before you even lay a finger on a railing or jump between two walls, you need to think about what is most fundamental to your ability to be useful. In my opinion, the basis for all training should come from general fitness. You should learn how to run for distance and how to run for speed, you should develop your muscular strength and your muscular endurance. This is more important than any "techniques" or "specific" training you can do. Why? Because by building a foundation of strength, stamina, speed and endurance, you give yourself a wide base which you can go on to use in all other situations.

With a physically fit body, you can now run farther and faster than the average adversary, you can move your body weight and carry heavy objects, but most importantly you are healthy (it would be worth mentioning that along with the training, good nutrition is also fundamental to your ability to be useful. As is rest). If you have ever seen Dogen Trick's "Titanium Ankles" video, you'll also know that with a solid foundation of strength, you can reap the benefits of more specific training faster than somebody who is only interested in the technical aspects.

Anyway, once you can run and have decent strength, the next most important abilities to have in an emergency tend to be those which involve obstacles other than flat ground. Sometimes it is inevitable (or just easier) to pass certain obstacles that lay in your path. In terms of a chase, the ability to climb quickly is generally the best skill to have. If you can get somewhere where you can't be followed, this is helpful. The obvious example is a roof. Sometimes it can be a flight of stairs or a mobility ramp that gives you the edge. It could simply take one turn vault to drop and roll. In any case, most situations will rely on a very general ability to run and overcome obstacles. Therefore, your training should be general and broadly applicable.

As you develop a strong repertoire of movements that help you in most situations, you'll want to begin to apply them. What I mean is, it doesn't matter that you can cat pass the wall outside your school if, after running for only 800 metres, you haven't the energy to get over it and instead take a longer, less effective route (and possibly come to regret this). This is where general fitness comes in. Your cat pass practice is probably pointless unless you know that you can use it when it comes down to a situation where you must. The likelihood of a situation requiring only a single, isolated cat pass is, after all, very low.

Once you have confidence in your abilities here, you'll want to expand to other aspects of training. What good is it to be able to reach a place if, when there, you are unable to help? Self defence, first aid and the ability to carry are likely skills to be required in these cases. Also, what good is it to be wonderful at level arm jumps if you find yourself on a camping trip and are unable to traverse mountainous rock to escape a wild goat-gone-crazy? (Shame on me for using such a dumb example.) Or are unable to swim a short distance? As you progress in parkour, these widely applicable skills become very important to consider.

There is much more to consider at this point. Your ability to surpass fear, to commit at height, to keep a clear head, to balance well. Many practitioners concentrate mostly on the fear aspect, practising bigger and more daring (and dare I say " coincidentally impressive") moves, jumping between roofs, making huge cat pass precisions and wall gaps. I think in some cases (or if I'm going to be daring, most cases), this over-emphasis on adrenaline-packed fear breaking is laced with egotistical motives. While surpassing your fears is utterly vital to your training of parkour, it should never be placed above your ability to run for example (and lets admit it, how many of us can do a big sdc-precision but are unable to run for a simple 3 miles?)

Now, lets consider flips. So far, I am only aware of a modest handful of situations in which a flip is the most efficient option. It can be used in a very specific situation and generally only if you have a high energy reserve to spare. As such, what grounds have you for practising flips more consistently than your ability to run? The point that I am trying to make is that flips come near the end of a very long list of descendingly fundamental skills. If you wish to be a truly great traceur, you should realise that in concentrating on flips, you are exploiting an incredibly narrow set of situations and will likely find your leg being chewed on by a wild dog when it comes to a real situation if you haven't already practised your fundamental skills to a high level. As I said from the start, it's about priority. As David Belle so rightly said, when you put yourself in those situations, you come to know what parkour really is.

Just to add a final few points, I think that the argument "flips help spatial awareness hence are good for parkour" is slippery at best. Personally, I haven't found the full-twisting back flip to have much carry-over to anything besides other flips (for others this may not be the case). I would contend that you'll get a better appreciation for precision jumps by practising them repetitively and diligently than by getting used to the feeling of being mid-somersault. DaveS made what I believe to be a better case for flips- the exploration of your body and its capacities. Although, I would still argue that you can appease your appetite for exploration simply by expanding yourself with the fundamental practises of parkour and without need for flips until you reach a certain (moderately high) level.

And that's all I have to say on the matter! I could have just said "it's about priority and what is most useful in the widest set of situations" but I felt like substantiating it and hope that I made a good case for my argument. I hope this is helpful.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: hfksla on August 29, 2010, 01:41:37 PM
Did you write that up?
If so +1 and thank you for taking the time for such an elaborate post ;D
I've gotta go once i post this but I'll read the rest of it when i get home ;)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 29, 2010, 01:54:16 PM
Did you write that up?
If so +1 and thank you for taking the time for such an elaborate post ;D
I've gotta go once i post this but I'll read the rest of it when i get home ;)

If that comment was aimed at me, then yes =)
I feel passionately about it so I couldn't help but get the message across in full. I guess I'm just eager to discuss these things as I haven't been on a parkour forum since parkour.net went down in '08.
Hope you enjoy the rest of the post.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: max eisenberg on August 29, 2010, 03:08:39 PM
This comment is aimed at the OP, but could be interesting to consider for anybody else in this discussion, despite its length. Stranger things have happened.

Parkour, as described by David Belle, is primarily concerned with your ability to react in an emergency. David identifies heavily with the MN motto "be strong to be useful", meaning that we aim to develop and cultivate strength (mental and physical) so that we can help people (including ourselves) in sticky situations. David said to imagine that you are in an emergency and then you will know what parkour was meant to be. With this in mind, here's what I want to add.

From the very beginning, a key aspect of training which will guide your direction and how you are seen by the community is your sense of priority. In descending order, what are the most useful skills to have in parkour which will equip you to deal with emergency situations (and by extension, life in general)? Before you even lay a finger on a railing or jump between two walls, you need to think about what is most fundamental to your ability to be useful. In my opinion, the basis for all training should come from general fitness. You should learn how to run for distance and how to run for speed, you should develop your muscular strength and your muscular endurance. This is more important than any "techniques" or "specific" training you can do. Why? Because by building a foundation of strength, stamina, speed and endurance, you give yourself a wide base which you can go on to use in all other situations.

With a physically fit body, you can now run farther and faster than the average adversary, you can move your body weight and carry heavy objects, but most importantly you are healthy (it would be worth mentioning that along with the training, good nutrition is also fundamental to your ability to be useful. As is rest). If you have ever seen Dogen Trick's "Titanium Ankles" video, you'll also know that with a solid foundation of strength, you can reap the benefits of more specific training faster than somebody who is only interested in the technical aspects.

Anyway, once you can run and have decent strength, the next most important abilities to have in an emergency tend to be those which involve obstacles other than flat ground. Sometimes it is inevitable (or just easier) to pass certain obstacles that lay in your path. In terms of a chase, the ability to climb quickly is generally the best skill to have. If you can get somewhere where you can't be followed, this is helpful. The obvious example is a roof. Sometimes it can be a flight of stairs or a mobility ramp that gives you the edge. It could simply take one turn vault to drop and roll. In any case, most situations will rely on a very general ability to run and overcome obstacles. Therefore, your training should be general and broadly applicable.

As you develop a strong repertoire of movements that help you in most situations, you'll want to begin to apply them. What I mean is, it doesn't matter that you can cat pass the wall outside your school if, after running for only 800 metres, you haven't the energy to get over it and instead take a longer, less effective route (and possibly come to regret this). This is where general fitness comes in. Your cat pass practice is probably pointless unless you know that you can use it when it comes down to a situation where you must. The likelihood of a situation requiring only a single, isolated cat pass is, after all, very low.

Once you have confidence in your abilities here, you'll want to expand to other aspects of training. What good is it to be able to reach a place if, when there, you are unable to help? Self defence, first aid and the ability to carry are likely skills to be required in these cases. Also, what good is it to be wonderful at level arm jumps if you find yourself on a camping trip and are unable to traverse mountainous rock to escape a wild goat-gone-crazy? (Shame on me for using such a dumb example.) Or are unable to swim a short distance? As you progress in parkour, these widely applicable skills become very important to consider.

There is much more to consider at this point. Your ability to surpass fear, to commit at height, to keep a clear head, to balance well. Many practitioners concentrate mostly on the fear aspect, practising bigger and more daring (and dare I say " coincidentally impressive") moves, jumping between roofs, making huge cat pass precisions and wall gaps. I think in some cases (or if I'm going to be daring, most cases), this over-emphasis on adrenaline-packed fear breaking is laced with egotistical motives. While surpassing your fears is utterly vital to your training of parkour, it should never be placed above your ability to run for example (and lets admit it, how many of us can do a big sdc-precision but are unable to run for a simple 3 miles?)

Now, lets consider flips. So far, I am only aware of a modest handful of situations in which a flip is the most efficient option. It can be used in a very specific situation and generally only if you have a high energy reserve to spare. As such, what grounds have you for practising flips more consistently than your ability to run? The point that I am trying to make is that flips come near the end of a very long list of descendingly fundamental skills. If you wish to be a truly great traceur, you should realise that in concentrating on flips, you are exploiting an incredibly narrow set of situations and will likely find your leg being chewed on by a wild dog when it comes to a real situation if you haven't already practised your fundamental skills to a high level. As I said from the start, it's about priority. As David Belle so rightly said, when you put yourself in those situations, you come to know what parkour really is.

Just to add a final few points, I think that the argument "flips help spatial awareness hence are good for parkour" is slippery at best. Personally, I haven't found the full-twisting back flip to have much carry-over to anything besides other flips (for others this may not be the case). I would contend that you'll get a better appreciation for precision jumps by practising them repetitively and diligently than by getting used to the feeling of being mid-somersault. DaveS made what I believe to be a better case for flips- the exploration of your body and its capacities. Although, I would still argue that you can appease your appetite for exploration simply by expanding yourself with the fundamental practises of parkour and without need for flips until you reach a certain (moderately high) level.

And that's all I have to say on the matter! I could have just said "it's about priority and what is most useful in the widest set of situations" but I felt like substantiating it and hope that I made a good case for my argument. I hope this is helpful.

couldnt have said it better myself, no really i have been trying for quite some time now. no matter what you like to call your training system it really all comes from the ability to move rapidly through your environment to come out on top. human movement is a beautifully raw, powerful, graceful, and above all else EFFICIENT thing.

our bodies are designed to run a hundred miles non stop, its why we have little body hair, why we sweat and salivate and why we run on TWO legs and not four. our body is meant to conserve and explode, explode so we can conserve. as of right now i would like to say that we are possibly the most well rounded animals on this planet.

our minds allow us to think quickly about all aspects of the situation while we efficiently stride across the ground using our arms as counter balance mechanisms that double as appendages we climb, grab, throw and complete many other movements with. with such a versatile body we are just about unlimited in our capacity to move in any way that is called for.

this is parkour, this is where it came from, parkour is why we are here. if it wasnt for our ability to perform parkour nature would have snuffed us out thousands upon thousands of years ago.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: S Leger on August 29, 2010, 04:27:11 PM
+1000000000000 to Luke MC.  That post was probably one of the best articles about parkour that I've ever read.  Bravo.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Josh Boggs on August 29, 2010, 05:43:51 PM
This comment is aimed at the OP, but could be interesting to consider for anybody else in this discussion, despite its length. Stranger things have happened.

Parkour, as described by David Belle, is primarily concerned with your ability to react in an emergency. David identifies heavily with the MN motto "be strong to be useful", meaning that we aim to develop and cultivate strength (mental and physical) so that we can help people (including ourselves) in sticky situations. David said to imagine that you are in an emergency and then you will know what parkour was meant to be. With this in mind, here's what I want to add.

From the very beginning, a key aspect of training which will guide your direction and how you are seen by the community is your sense of priority. In descending order, what are the most useful skills to have in parkour which will equip you to deal with emergency situations (and by extension, life in general)? Before you even lay a finger on a railing or jump between two walls, you need to think about what is most fundamental to your ability to be useful. In my opinion, the basis for all training should come from general fitness. You should learn how to run for distance and how to run for speed, you should develop your muscular strength and your muscular endurance. This is more important than any "techniques" or "specific" training you can do. Why? Because by building a foundation of strength, stamina, speed and endurance, you give yourself a wide base which you can go on to use in all other situations.

With a physically fit body, you can now run farther and faster than the average adversary, you can move your body weight and carry heavy objects, but most importantly you are healthy (it would be worth mentioning that along with the training, good nutrition is also fundamental to your ability to be useful. As is rest). If you have ever seen Dogen Trick's "Titanium Ankles" video, you'll also know that with a solid foundation of strength, you can reap the benefits of more specific training faster than somebody who is only interested in the technical aspects.

Anyway, once you can run and have decent strength, the next most important abilities to have in an emergency tend to be those which involve obstacles other than flat ground. Sometimes it is inevitable (or just easier) to pass certain obstacles that lay in your path. In terms of a chase, the ability to climb quickly is generally the best skill to have. If you can get somewhere where you can't be followed, this is helpful. The obvious example is a roof. Sometimes it can be a flight of stairs or a mobility ramp that gives you the edge. It could simply take one turn vault to drop and roll. In any case, most situations will rely on a very general ability to run and overcome obstacles. Therefore, your training should be general and broadly applicable.

As you develop a strong repertoire of movements that help you in most situations, you'll want to begin to apply them. What I mean is, it doesn't matter that you can cat pass the wall outside your school if, after running for only 800 metres, you haven't the energy to get over it and instead take a longer, less effective route (and possibly come to regret this). This is where general fitness comes in. Your cat pass practice is probably pointless unless you know that you can use it when it comes down to a situation where you must. The likelihood of a situation requiring only a single, isolated cat pass is, after all, very low.

Once you have confidence in your abilities here, you'll want to expand to other aspects of training. What good is it to be able to reach a place if, when there, you are unable to help? Self defence, first aid and the ability to carry are likely skills to be required in these cases. Also, what good is it to be wonderful at level arm jumps if you find yourself on a camping trip and are unable to traverse mountainous rock to escape a wild goat-gone-crazy? (Shame on me for using such a dumb example.) Or are unable to swim a short distance? As you progress in parkour, these widely applicable skills become very important to consider.

There is much more to consider at this point. Your ability to surpass fear, to commit at height, to keep a clear head, to balance well. Many practitioners concentrate mostly on the fear aspect, practising bigger and more daring (and dare I say " coincidentally impressive") moves, jumping between roofs, making huge cat pass precisions and wall gaps. I think in some cases (or if I'm going to be daring, most cases), this over-emphasis on adrenaline-packed fear breaking is laced with egotistical motives. While surpassing your fears is utterly vital to your training of parkour, it should never be placed above your ability to run for example (and lets admit it, how many of us can do a big sdc-precision but are unable to run for a simple 3 miles?)

Now, lets consider flips. So far, I am only aware of a modest handful of situations in which a flip is the most efficient option. It can be used in a very specific situation and generally only if you have a high energy reserve to spare. As such, what grounds have you for practising flips more consistently than your ability to run? The point that I am trying to make is that flips come near the end of a very long list of descendingly fundamental skills. If you wish to be a truly great traceur, you should realise that in concentrating on flips, you are exploiting an incredibly narrow set of situations and will likely find your leg being chewed on by a wild dog when it comes to a real situation if you haven't already practised your fundamental skills to a high level. As I said from the start, it's about priority. As David Belle so rightly said, when you put yourself in those situations, you come to know what parkour really is.

Just to add a final few points, I think that the argument "flips help spatial awareness hence are good for parkour" is slippery at best. Personally, I haven't found the full-twisting back flip to have much carry-over to anything besides other flips (for others this may not be the case). I would contend that you'll get a better appreciation for precision jumps by practising them repetitively and diligently than by getting used to the feeling of being mid-somersault. DaveS made what I believe to be a better case for flips- the exploration of your body and its capacities. Although, I would still argue that you can appease your appetite for exploration simply by expanding yourself with the fundamental practises of parkour and without need for flips until you reach a certain (moderately high) level.

And that's all I have to say on the matter! I could have just said "it's about priority and what is most useful in the widest set of situations" but I felt like substantiating it and hope that I made a good case for my argument. I hope this is helpful.
beautiful...you've really opened my eyes
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 29, 2010, 06:51:41 PM
human movement is a beautifully raw, powerful, graceful, and above all else EFFICIENT thing.
can i sig that?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Chris Ell on August 29, 2010, 07:09:49 PM
The times when I've actually applied parkour in my life, I've never thought "You know what would be useful here? A flip." Mind you, I wasn't being chased or anything. But if I was, I sure as hell would NEVER attempt to flip while running. Flips are dangerous and disorienting in a situation where you need perfect concentration. Even if I knew the area extremely well and trained there often, I still wouldn't do it. Besides, if there were ever a situation like MThomasfreerun described, a simple pop vault or clean kong vault would suffice.

 Heres a small example of why flips are just a bad idea when you're running aboot (Yes this really happened): My friend Tom and I were getting ready to train in down town Tampa and were walking towards the spot where everyone was. I saw a short cut through some parking garages we could take and so we ran off towards them. I pop vaulted the first wall and was met with an identical second wall about 20 feet across. Now, I easily could've flipped over this wall without breaking my momentum hardly at all, but instead did a pop vault to turn vault. That's when I saw the 20+ foot drop staring me in the face. Then, my friend comes over the wall and has the same reaction as me. We had both forgotten about the massive drop directly over that wall even though we've trained there plenty of times before. If we had flipped, we may have died, but we certainly would've broken something (or many somethings). Point being this: flips will never ever ever ever be practical in a "real" situation. Ever.

Also, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZeiacoEoLU) is footage of the day we went training if anyone's interested.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: max eisenberg on August 29, 2010, 07:11:13 PM
can i sig that?

sure
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 29, 2010, 07:12:32 PM
The times when I've actually applied parkour in my life, I've never thought "You know what would be useful here? A flip." Mind you, I wasn't being chased or anything. But if I was, I sure as hell would NEVER attempt to flip while running. Flips are dangerous and disorienting in a situation where you need perfect concentration. Even if I knew the area extremely well and trained there often, I still wouldn't do it. Besides, if there were ever a situation like MThomasfreerun described, a simple pop vault or clean kong vault would suffice.

 Heres a small example of why flips are just a bad idea when you're running aboot (Yes this really happened): My friend Tom and I were getting ready to train in down town Tampa and were walking towards the spot where everyone was. I saw a short cut through some parking garages we could take and so we ran off towards them. I pop vaulted the first wall and was met with an identical second wall about 20 feet across. Now, I easily could've flipped over this wall without breaking my momentum hardly at all, but instead did a pop vault to turn vault. That's when I saw the 20+ foot drop staring me in the face. Then, my friend comes over the wall and has the same reaction as me. We had both forgotten about the massive drop directly over that wall even though we've trained there plenty of times before. If we had flipped, we may have died, but we certainly would've broken something (or many somethings). Point being this: flips will never ever ever ever be practical in a "real" situation. Ever.
wow..... that would scare the shit out of me. lol


sure
thanks
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 29, 2010, 07:34:11 PM
The times when I've actually applied parkour in my life, I've never thought "You know what would be useful here? A flip." Mind you, I wasn't being chased or anything. But if I was, I sure as hell would NEVER attempt to flip while running. Flips are dangerous and disorienting in a situation where you need perfect concentration. Even if I knew the area extremely well and trained there often, I still wouldn't do it. Besides, if there were ever a situation like MThomasfreerun described, a simple pop vault or clean kong vault would suffice.

 

Also, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZeiacoEoLU) is footage of the day we went training if anyone's interested.

To each their own. I'm guessing if I put you against Ryan Doyle (who actually said he'd prefer a front flip to a full on jump when he was on fight science) and he performs a front and you perform a pop vault, most likely Doyle's gonna take you on efficiency (no offense -I don't actually know your skill level so I'm taking a guess based on a slightly better-than-average freerunner - he'd sure bake my ass).  The point is, some people are more comfortable performing a flip than certain other movements. That's their prerogative and I would never tell someone they are wrong for doing what they feel most comfortable with.


Quote
Heres a small example of why flips are just a bad idea when you're running aboot (Yes this really happened): My friend Tom and I were getting ready to train in down town Tampa and were walking towards the spot where everyone was. I saw a short cut through some parking garages we could take and so we ran off towards them. I pop vaulted the first wall and was met with an identical second wall about 20 feet across. Now, I easily could've flipped over this wall without breaking my momentum hardly at all, but instead did a pop vault to turn vault. That's when I saw the 20+ foot drop staring me in the face. Then, my friend comes over the wall and has the same reaction as me. We had both forgotten about the massive drop directly over that wall even though we've trained there plenty of times before. If we had flipped, we may have died, but we certainly would've broken something (or many somethings). Point being this: flips will never ever ever ever be practical in a "real" situation. Ever.

First, I'd suggest being careful about using definitive words like "never" - I only have to find one situation where it's not true and your statement is killed  ;)

Second, one of the cardinal rules of parkour is to "check your obstacles," is it not? So it's on you for deciding to vault a wall without knowing the landing on the other side (and you actually DID know - just forgot, right?). Don't hold the rest of us accountable because you failed to do that - my example presupposed knowledge of one's landing, but I guess I should have explicitly stated that.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Chris Ell on August 29, 2010, 07:53:54 PM
To each their own. I'm guessing if I put you against Ryan Doyle (who actually said he'd prefer a front flip to a full on jump when he was on fight science) and he performs a front and you perform a pop vault, most likely Doyle's gonna take you on efficiency (no offense -I don't actually know your skill level so I'm taking a guess based on a slightly better-than-average freerunner - he'd sure bake my ass).  The point is, some people are more comfortable performing a flip than certain other movements. That's their prerogative and I would never tell someone they are wrong for doing what they feel most comfortable with.


First, I'd suggest being careful about using definitive words like "never" - I only have to find one situation where it's not true and your statement is killed  ;)

Second, one of the cardinal rules of parkour is to "check your obstacles," is it not? So it's on you for deciding to vault a wall without knowing the landing on the other side (and you actually DID know - just forgot, right?). Don't hold the rest of us accountable because you failed to do that - my example presupposed knowledge of one's landing, but I guess I should have explicitly stated that.

Oh, that's a completely different situation than I was thinking of. I was saying that if you were to just one day be chased, or to just run and react to whichever obstacle you may come across the best way you can on the spot (what my friend and I did that day) not necessarily knowing the surrounding area, I feel that a flip would be completely reckless and dangerous. Also, I've met Ryan Doyle, and while he's an incredibly nice and talented guy, some of the things he said made me doubt his credibility on the subjects of parkour and freerunning. But like you said, to each his own I guess.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Shyam Subramanian on August 30, 2010, 04:46:08 AM
Well I'm sure looking firward to more of Luke MC's posts.  That was amazing.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: hfksla on August 30, 2010, 05:15:22 AM
Couldn't agree more with Luke and Max ;D
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Alex Melusky on August 30, 2010, 11:25:48 AM
Also, I've met Ryan Doyle, and while he's an incredibly nice and talented guy, some of the things he said made me doubt his credibility on the subjects of parkour and freerunning.

I would like to know what made you doubt him...
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 30, 2010, 10:59:37 PM
@Chris Ell: That's true, fair enough.

How about this: a teammate of mine brought up the excellent example of a chest high barbwire/razorwire fence with say a 8' drop on the other side. Are you planning to kong vault it? Dash vault perhaps? Certainly a dive roll is not a great idea...as I mentioned, I just have to find ONE example;-)

As for Doyle, well, actions speak louder than words. His movement is what I care about and he is extremely proficient at it, so I'm satisfied. But as we keep saying, to each their own, heh.

Love and respect.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 02:45:27 AM
First of all, I HATE this topic. And not for the reasons you might think. But I just wanted to mention I've seen Chris Ell train with Ryan Doyle and I'd take that bet. Doyle is what he is but his parkour is mediocre at best. Chris is also a complete beast.

I'm SICK of the "it's all movement" mindset. I'm sorry but definitions build our world. Futbol and Football sound similar and are both a bunch of guys on a grass field trying to get a ball across a line, but NO ONE would say they're the same game.

Parkour is about efficiency of travel, escape and pursuit, and 'etre fort pour etre utile'. The difference comes in the mindset and goal of training. And as far as 'parkour would be 99% running in a real life situation so how we train is pointless anyways, so might as well flip' Really? Setting aside the "it's broken, we might as well cut it off" thought process, whats the fastest way to end a chase? Put an impassible object between you and your pursuer. I'm much more comfortable with my ability to wallclimb higher or gap farther than outrun any given person over a distance.

That's not to say one can't play both games. Flipping has immense benefits physically and mentally that would benefit parkour. But so do weight lifting, swimming, defense, and nutrition, and it would be silly to call those Parkour.

The "it's all movement" mindset allows for the bastardization of an important system, ideal, and philosophy. This is what turned Karate into Bubba-Fu. Saying "it's all movement" allows for the misunderstandings that we have to deal with everyday ("are you guys doing parkour? do a flip!"). It encourages the roofjumpers, re-re-runners, and idiots to label their maniacal, dangerous stunts as Parkour. And it will lead to the death of parkour in the mainstream.

We love to talk about how much Parkour is a life style, a life system, or a philosophy. But then immediately spout the fashionable "it's all movement." The simple fact is if your Parkour training is "all movement" you're doing it wrong.

I'm sorry but suck it up and take your lumps. Stand up for parkour as what it is or lose it to the youtubers.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: hfksla on August 31, 2010, 04:29:11 AM
Hmm...
as much as I hate to say it, Hull's gotta point.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 05:07:55 AM
I'm SICK of the "it's all movement" mindset. I'm sorry but definitions build our world. Futbol and Football sound similar and are both a bunch of guys on a grass field trying to get a ball across a line, but NO ONE would say they're the same game.

Parkour is about efficiency of travel, escape and pursuit, and 'etre fort pour etre utile'. The difference comes in the mindset and goal of training. And as far as 'parkour would be 99% running in a real life situation so how we train is pointless anyways, so might as well flip' Really? Setting aside the "it's broken, we might as well cut it off" thought process, whats the fastest way to end a chase? Put an impassible object between you and your pursuer. I'm much more comfortable with my ability to wallclimb higher or gap farther than outrun any given person over a distance.

That's not to say one can't play both games. Flipping has immense benefits physically and mentally that would benefit parkour. But so do weight lifting, swimming, defense, and nutrition, and it would be silly to call those Parkour.

The "it's all movement" mindset allows for the bastardization of an important system, ideal, and philosophy. This is what turned Karate into Bubba-Fu. Saying "it's all movement" allows for the misunderstandings that we have to deal with everyday ("are you guys doing parkour? do a flip!"). It encourages the roofjumpers, re-re-runners, and idiots to label their maniacal, dangerous stunts as Parkour. And it will lead to the death of parkour in the mainstream.

We love to talk about how much Parkour is a life style, a life system, or a philosophy. But then immediately spout the fashionable "it's all movement." The simple fact is if your Parkour training is "all movement" you're doing it wrong.

I'm sorry but suck it up and take your lumps. Stand up for parkour as what it is or lose it to the youtubers.

I'm glad that you posted this. Not many people have the courage to stand up for parkour like this when they know that most people's response will be "what an uptight (and typical) fundamentalist". The point you're making here needs to be made clear though, and I think I may make myself a little unpopular for what I'm about to say.

Stéphane Vigroux once said (in the U$F 3 Documentary) that parkour is very particular. He did not say "eh, le parkour... it's what you make it, just move" because he trained with David Belle and he knew better than this. He knew that Belle's parkour was looking for something quite specific and was bound by philosophies and ideals that other art forms don't necessarily follow. Yet "parkour" as a word has somehow become a lifelong attachment for many people who, upon deeper inspection, aren't really completely interested in parkour so much as they're interested in free exploration of their capacities, facing challenges and putting themselves to the test. I recognised this in my own training back in 2008, and instead of going around calling myself a traceur still, I stopped associating myself with that word because I knew full well that I would only be diluting the message of an art that deserves more respect than that. Later, I refocused my training to align exactly with my understanding of parkour, and now that is what I practise.

Thing is, most people who I have encountered on my travels or on the internet are much like my 2008 self yet still clinging to the word "parkour". People who get their inspiration from Daniel Ilabaca and Ryan Doyle, making beautiful and elegant movement, surpassing their limits and setting great examples for future practitioners. But it isn't parkour. If you don't agree that you should be strong to be useful, it isn't parkour. If you think that "training for an emergency" is naive and unrealistic, it isn't parkour. If you are above all of this and simply want to enjoy the movements without the "politics", I'm sorry, it isn't parkour. And there's no shame in admitting that! I'd rather you did, because then when I look for reliable information or videos on parkour, I won't keep seeing things like 3Run's street stunt samplers.

Quote
And it will lead to the death of parkour in the mainstream

Here, I'm afraid I disagree completely. I believe the death of parkour has already been and passed, at least in the UK. True parkour as a practise is as good as gone. The "it's all movement" mindset is the mainstream now. Even the people we look up to the most are spreading a mixed message. For example, the ever-popular "Choose Not To Fall" video by Ilabaca demonstrates a total deconstruction of parkour's "etre et durer" motto. Danny says "less time full-on conditioning for the future and more time just enjoying the fact that you've got another day". This is a great outlook on life, no doubt, but it sends out a message that is contrary to "to be and to last", and can lead to many people lessening their physical conditioning in favour of enjoying their Ilabacaflips. It dilutes and obscures the message of parkour, like so many of Ilabaca's and Livewire's hybrid videos and cross-over philosophies.

Quote
Flipping has immense benefits physically and mentally that would benefit parkour. But so do weight lifting, swimming, defense, and nutrition, and it would be silly to call those Parkour.

And this is part of the point that I was trying to stress. Just because something can have benefits to parkour, does not mean you should incorporate it straight into your training without further analysis. Everything on that list (weight lifting, swimming, etc) is, in my opinion, more important to incorporate into your parkour lifestyle than flips as the carry-over is higher (from weights and nutrition) and the skills are more important in terms of the "etre utile" motto (swimming and defence). The reason people choose flips over these other important aspects of training is because flips are damn good fun. And this is fine. I'm ok with this. Just be honest with yourself when you try to justify calling it "helpful to parkour". If you really, truly, honestly wanted to pursue parkour, you'd have a very different outlook and your training would be much more broad and complete (refer back to my original post in this discussion).

I came here because I am interested in learning and spreading the messages of parkour. Not free running, not street stunts and not break dancing. It's just my preference. So when I talk about parkour, I am talking about something very specific. Not just "movement in general". I have no interest in telling people how they should train, that's up to the people. What I would like to see, however, is people being a little more thoughtful about the words they use to describe their methods. Parkour is what it is. If you're going to use the word, be sure you understand exactly what it is that you're saying.

I don't like making whiny posts, though I feel strongly about this.

*EDIT: Just to add, as I think I was unclear on the "death of parkour" point, I don't believe that parkour is actually dead, only that it has gone further underground than ever before, and that "it's all movement" is the new mainstream. I am aware that in the UK, we still have Parkour Generations and other such examples trying to spread the correct message and (from what I hear) doing a good job. This doesn't extend far out of London though for the most part. -sigh-
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 05:24:46 AM
You hit it right on the head Luke. Just to clarify when I said 'death of parkour in the mainstream' I meant true parkour, as you and I see it. It very well may be that time has come and gone but I was raised a pastors kid and Im not one to count out resurrection. I think that the opinion of true parkour comes with time and life experience. There's a life cycle to the sociology of parkour. Typically we see something impressive on television, do tons of research, go out and try it, progress quickly, go big or go home, get hurt, start training over safely, get caught up in pushing the limits of your skill, and then eventually learn to love less. By learn to love less what I mean is dedicating yourself to efficiency and virtuosity. Learning to use as little energy as possible to achieve each objective, and learning to do the common uncommonly well.

There's a whole article in there but Im at work on my phone so I just wanted to say Im with you. And don't count out true parkour yet. There will always be life behind an idea if there are people willing to live for it.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 31, 2010, 05:26:08 AM
First of all, I HATE this topic. And not for the reasons you might think. But I just wanted to mention I've seen Chris Ell train with Ryan Doyle and I'd take that bet. Doyle is what he is but his parkour is mediocre at best. Chris is also a complete beast.

I honestly have never met Chris Ell nor seen his stuff. I in no way was nor am attempting to devalue his abilities. If you want me to use a different athlete as an example, I can pick Oleg or Ilabaca, or a dozen others, but I have a feeling based on your comments that you have already decided that people with this style are inherently "mediocre" at parkour...

Quote
I'm SICK of the "it's all movement" mindset. I'm sorry but definitions build our world. Futbol and Football sound similar and are both a bunch of guys on a grass field trying to get a ball across a line, but NO ONE would say they're the same game.

Parkour is about efficiency of travel, escape and pursuit, and 'etre fort pour etre utile'. The difference comes in the mindset and goal of training. And as far as 'parkour would be 99% running in a real life situation so how we train is pointless anyways, so might as well flip' Really? Setting aside the "it's broken, we might as well cut it off" thought process, whats the fastest way to end a chase? Put an impassible object between you and your pursuer. I'm much more comfortable with my ability to wallclimb higher or gap farther than outrun any given person over a distance.

That's not to say one can't play both games. Flipping has immense benefits physically and mentally that would benefit parkour. But so do weight lifting, swimming, defense, and nutrition, and it would be silly to call those Parkour.

The "it's all movement" mindset allows for the bastardization of an important system, ideal, and philosophy. This is what turned Karate into Bubba-Fu. Saying "it's all movement" allows for the misunderstandings that we have to deal with everyday ("are you guys doing parkour? do a flip!"). It encourages the roofjumpers, re-re-runners, and idiots to label their maniacal, dangerous stunts as Parkour. And it will lead to the death of parkour in the mainstream.

We love to talk about how much Parkour is a life style, a life system, or a philosophy. But then immediately spout the fashionable "it's all movement." The simple fact is if your Parkour training is "all movement" you're doing it wrong.

I'm sorry but suck it up and take your lumps. Stand up for parkour as what it is or lose it to the youtubers.

I'm curious - where do you pull your definitions? This seems to be the biggest trouble area. It's obvious you've got a very specific and rigid idea of what you believe parkour actually entails. You hate the "it's all movement" view, yet that's the exact way the Yamakasi have described it:

"Parkour, l'art du deplacement, freerunning, the art of movement... they are all the same thing. They are all movement and they all came from the same place, the same nine guys originally. The only thing that differs is each individual's way of moving." Don't try to separate them or waste energy debating whether this is this or that is that - that leads only to separation within yourself. You must find out why YOU practise, that is all. After that you will find your way. Labels count for nothing. Just move."

http://www.parkourgenerations.com/articles.php?id_cat=4&idart=29

Maybe you disagree with this viewpoint, but then I ask again - where are you pulling your definition - your concept of parkour? It would seem that some pretty credible sources disagree with you...

Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 05:50:15 AM
"What I’m interested in for parkour is the utilitarian thing of getting to the other end, whether as a task or a challenge, but in film they like a little entertainment, so I do that, too, but it’s not what I’m interested in." -David Belle

I tend to use David Belle as my source for core parkour knowledge. The Yamakasi are great guys and I've trained with them myself. They put my body to the test in ways that I've never experienced before or since. They are an inspiration to train with, but I think what they're trying to do here is put an end to what became a slightly hostile environment for practitioners of opposing views. The want to unify people in their general love for movement, and they are right in saying that parkour/free running/etc all came from the same place but to say that they are still the same is simply not true. Perhaps to them but not to the wider community who pick up the arts and choose to focus more specifically on certain aspects. I've read Sébastien Foucan's book (Freerunning: Find You Way) and I've read many transcripts of David Belle and I've listened to the Yamakasi voicing their opinions, and they don't match up precisely. Foucan's philosophy is different to David's which in turn is slightly different to that of the Yamakasi. What the Yamakasi are doing is commendable and will promote peace between practitioners of movement, but they did oversimplify when they said it's all the same.

For anybody who trains any of the named arts in a way that the Yamakasi do, indeed, the lines between them blur and can even vanish. They train hard, from fundamental skills and tough conditioning through to technique and then limitless expression. This is true of all the arts when approached from a Yamakasi-style training regime. Perhaps I am at fault for putting too much emphasis on the Natural Method in my philosophies, but I'm quite sure David's aim for parkour is to be utilitarian, whereas other arts, as spoken by their founders, are not (e.g seb's freerunning is about finding yourself).
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 06:10:17 AM
PRECISELY! The yamakasi are the MMA fighters of the movement world. In the time they've trained they have absorbed, developed, and integrated techniques from all different styles and intents. One could say they are the Jeet Kun Do of movement. I am more than happy to acknowledge all the styles as Movement Arts just as Martial Arts. But again, Tae Kwon Do is not Karate. And kyokushin karate is not shotokan karate and Chang moo kwon TKD is not muk duk kwon TKD. I appreciate where the yamakasi are coming from as a collection of masters, however Bruce Lee said "First you learn technique, then you master technique, THEN you abandon techniques" And im sure he'd very much caution anyone from skipping those first steps.

Also, I hate to mention this but, as the founders of one of the arts in question (LDDP) the yamakasi stand a lot to gain from positioning all arts as the same. They are unifying their practitioner base and as such, if they are no different, can claim the entire user base of parkour and freerunners as adherents to their own system. At they same time they are giving no one person or style reason not to support them or train with them as a client base.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 06:55:35 AM
Andrew when we said in this thread its all movement we where not saying its all the same thing, we where attempting to avoid a fight over definitions that we have on here ALL THE TIME. we all understand there is a difference, but there is no reason to fight over that difference every Thursday.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Kendy on August 31, 2010, 06:59:20 AM
Flipping is efficient
I flip becuase it's fun
Fun makes me happy
By the transitive property, flips make me happy
The transitive property is an effivient method
Flipping has efficiently made me happy
Therefore flipping is efficient

GO AHEAD, QUESTION MY PROOF!


Andrew when we said in this thread its all movement we where not saying its all the same thing, we where attempting to avoid a fight over definitions that we have on here ALL THE TIME. we all understand there is a difference, but there is no reason to fight over that difference every Thursday.
Today is actually Tuesday... just saying >.> <3
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 07:01:59 AM
Again we all understand the difference between parkour and free-running, and some people train for both. The "its all movement" thing is not because we think its all movement, its because we are sick of fighting over it.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 07:11:15 AM
Again we all understand the difference between parkour and free-running, and some people train for both. The "its all movement" thing is not because we think its all movement, its because we are sick of fighting over it.

But surely you don't consider this current debate to be "fighting"? I think it's an engaging way of getting us all to think a lot more deeply about the foundations of our practise. Provided that things don't descend into ad hominem attacks, we can all learn something very valuable- particularly newer people- from the discourse into the fundamental philosophies of what we do. I don't feel as though I'm fighting against anybody, and I hope you don't see it that way either. I'm just throwing out ideas. It may seem repetitive to you, but newer practitioners will benefit from seeing these discussions early in their training. It's stimulating.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 07:12:38 AM
So youre simultaneously  lying and equivocating? And you wonder why new practitioners are confused on the subject?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 07:15:37 AM
But surely you don't consider this current debate to be "fighting"? I think it's an engaging way of getting us all to think a lot more deeply about the foundations of our practise. Provided that things don't descend into ad hominem attacks, we can all learn something very valuable- particularly newer people- from the discourse into the fundamental philosophies of what we do. I don't feel as though I'm fighting against anybody, and I hope you don't see it that way either. I'm just throwing out ideas. It may seem repetitive to you, but newer practitioners will benefit from seeing these discussions early in their training. It's stimulating.

then can we make a new thread about it instead of hijacking this one? because the original statement of its all movement was to prevent the thread from getting derailed.

So youre simultaneously  lying and equivocating? And you wonder why new practitioners are confused on the subject?
there is no reason to be a dick.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 31, 2010, 07:18:32 AM
Again we all understand the difference between parkour and free-running, and some people train for both. The "its all movement" thing is not because we think its all movement, its because we are sick of fighting over it.

If you are sick of fighting over it, did you care in the first place? Are you just giving up?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 07:21:37 AM

 there is no reason to be a dick.
There's no reason to put your comfort and peeves before the needs of the community or the cause of truth.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Kendy on August 31, 2010, 07:29:42 AM
If you are sick of fighting over it, did you care in the first place? Are you just giving up?

I wasn't gonna say anything serious in this thread cause I don't like these threads either, but that was uncalled for.
Just becuase Tex doesnt want people fighting over the definitions doesnt mean he's given up.  However, historically speaking, appeasement doesnt work out all that well.  In face, Hitler rose to power with the aid of American and European appeasement.  Hitler and Nazi Germany were kicking and screaming about the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles; eventually, the other countries allowed him to break the "unjust" terms of the treaty.

My point here is - while Tex's intentions are good and true, yes Evan, appeasement may not be the best way to handle this problem.  But don't say he's given up; that's just slander.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 07:29:57 AM
If you are sick of fighting over it, did you care in the first place? Are you just giving up?

Evan go train, stop trying to pick fights. of course i care, but this is a Pk and freerunning forum. If this was anywhere else i would be right next to Hull arguing the definition, but here it has been done so many times before that at this point its redundant and counter-productive. Yes there are different philosophies to parkour and freerunning. And to most of us it has become a major part of our lives. but we are a community, and one that can accomplish great things, if we work together. But we can't work together if we are arguing over the definition instead of answering a simple question. How do you think it looks to the new people that some asked if if a flip could be practical and its been derailed how many times?

There's no reason to put your comfort and peeves before the needs of the community or the cause of truth.
you seriously need to chill, your no messiah. this argument has been had many times. and at this point your not debating you singling people out for trying to prevent a thread derail. if you want this argument then fine, go make a thread, ill probably be on your side if its the threads topic.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 07:41:03 AM
then can we make a new thread about it instead of hijacking this one?

I feel that the discussion has been relevant to the original topic. People have different ideas of what "practicality" means in parkour, as we don't all agree that "A-B efficiency" is the only metric by which to measure the practicality of incorporating flips into our training. As such, the philosophies of practise are fundamentally addressed and challenged in order to properly explore the question. Still, I think that at this point it has turned a little personal between some members. I have no interest in that so I'd be happy for a new thread to start.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 31, 2010, 07:46:38 AM
Existentialism - (philosophy) a 20th-century philosophical movement chiefly in Europe; assumes that people are entirely free and thus responsible for what they make of themselves.

Subjectivism - The doctrine that reality is created or shaped by the mind; The doctrine that knowledge is based in feelings or intuition; The doctrine that values and moral principles come from attitudes, convention, whim, or preference

---

Why is it all just movement?  Because MY parkour isn't YOUR parkour.  We're different people, and thus it varies slightly.  Not a single one of us do or think the exact same thing while performing parkour.  It could be incredibly similar, but not quite the same.  Also, different people have different styles of doing thing.  There is no ultimate move just as there is no ultimate martial art; each person is the deciding factor.

"Parkour is the physical discipline of training to overcome any obstacle within one's path by adapting one's movements to the environment." - APK

Freerunning is considered parkour in this definition...  But there is little objectivism to be found.


Not one of you can win this argument due to subjectivism and existentialism, try picking up a philosophy textbook next time, and then go train.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 07:54:40 AM
Again, does my football or YOUR football change what football is?

And I do apologize for the thread-jack.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: max eisenberg on August 31, 2010, 08:00:26 AM
if anyone here would do a flip in a true emergency you are seriously misunderstanding the core concept of whatever motion art you practice.

if you got into a fight would you try and do a backflip? then why would you bother doing a flip running from someone?

wasting energy doesnt get you anywhere. go ahead and argue these points, your only going to look stupid.

now practice what you want to practice because it can only make you a more well rounded practitioner unless you only stick to one or two things. in which case you are again seriously misunderstanding the core concepts of your art.

give this up now please.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Kendy on August 31, 2010, 08:02:52 AM
Again, does my football or YOUR football change what football is?

And I do apologize for the thread-jack.

my football is purple - just saying
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 08:03:26 AM
if anyone here would do a flip in a true emergency you are seriously misunderstanding the core concept of whatever motion art you practice.

if you got into a fight would you try and do a backflip? then why would you bother doing a flip running from someone?

wasting energy doesnt get you anywhere. go ahead and argue these points, your only going to look stupid.

now practice what you want to practice because it can only make you a more well rounded practitioner unless you only stick to one or two things. in which case you are again seriously misunderstanding the core concepts of your art.

give this up now please.

there this answers OP's question, a flip is not practical, end of discussion. if you want to argue philosophies start a new thread.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 31, 2010, 08:05:13 AM
Again, does my football or YOUR football change what football is?

And I do apologize for the thread-jack.

And what exactly is football?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: hfksla on August 31, 2010, 08:16:25 AM
Football is tough and intense sport
Football (soccer) is a sport where the players pretend to be injured to get the other team yellow cards
atleast thats what happened in the world cup...
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: JCalebM on August 31, 2010, 08:17:04 AM
Existentialism - (philosophy) a 20th-century philosophical movement chiefly in Europe; assumes that people are entirely free and thus responsible for what they make of themselves.

Subjectivism - The doctrine that reality is created or shaped by the mind; The doctrine that knowledge is based in feelings or intuition; The doctrine that values and moral principles come from attitudes, convention, whim, or preference

---

Why is it all just movement?  Because MY parkour isn't YOUR parkour.  We're different people, and thus it varies slightly.  Not a single one of us do or think the exact same thing while performing parkour.  It could be incredibly similar, but not quite the same.  Also, different people have different styles of doing thing.  There is no ultimate move just as there is no ultimate martial art; each person is the deciding factor.

"Parkour is the physical discipline of training to overcome any obstacle within one's path by adapting one's movements to the environment." - APK

Freerunning is considered parkour in this definition...  But there is little objectivism to be found.


Not one of you can win this argument due to subjectivism and existentialism, try picking up a philosophy textbook next time, and then go train.

I dont think this quite works against Drews point, because he is arguing, the same as David Belle, that there is only one parkour, not many.

But, truly we shouldnt look at flips as whether or not we do parkour. Parkour is where your training is rooted. I do parkour, but I had been tumbling long before i ever did parkour, and because of that, doing flips is a part of who i am. So if i am doing parkour, and do a flip, does that mean that i no longer am doing parkour? No, it means that flips are something that i enjoy and occasionally i might do them while at the same time that im doing parkour.

Now what i do have a problem with is when i see people ONLY doing flips and stunts and calling it parkour, because that is not parkour. If parkour is not where your training is rooted, then you are just doing stunts. If all you do is go outside and flip off of things, you are just doing stunts. Not parkour or freerunning or any one of the alternate words for parkour.

Let me also put it in terms of football and football. If i play soccer (football) does that mean that i cant also play football? No. They are 2 very different things, but i can do both. I can play soccer (football) and sometimes also play football. Now, if go out and just start kicking a ball and throwing a ball, or just run around tackling people, am still playing football or football....No.

Let me also put it in terms of martial arts and more relevant ma tricking. I am a martial artist. I practice traditional martial arts, but i also do martial arts tricking. Does that make me no longer a traditional martial artist? No, because my training is rooted in traditional martial arts, but i can also do martial arts tricking. Also i do multiple styles of martial arts. Lets take kung fu, and tae kwan do. If i do tae kwan do, am i no longer doing kung fu..No, they are 2 different styles and i can do both. But if i just walk around punching people, am i doing either of them... No, because then my training is not rooted in traditional martial arts, i am just running around punching people. That is not martial arts, the same as just doing stunts is not parkour.

I realize this post might make no sense to some people, so if it does, good, and if not, oh well.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 08:34:08 AM
I would also like to apologize for Calebs late post as he is,  in actuality,  a baby silverback gorilla that we have shaved and taught to use a computer. As such, typing that response likely took quite some time. Thank you.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Artisticflow87 on August 31, 2010, 09:07:26 AM
Quote from: Caleb
But, truly we shouldnt look at flips as whether or not we do parkour. Parkour is where your training is rooted. I do parkour, but I had been tumbling long before i ever did parkour, and because of that, doing flips is a part of who i am. So if i am doing parkour, and do a flip, does that mean that i no longer am doing parkour? No, it means that flips are something that i enjoy and occasionally i might do them while at the same time that im doing parkour.

Now what i do have a problem with is when i see people ONLY doing flips and stunts and calling it parkour, because that is not parkour. If parkour is not where your training is rooted, then you are just doing stunts. If all you do is go outside and flip off of things, you are just doing stunts. Not parkour or freerunning or any one of the alternate words for parkour.

Let me also put it in terms of football and football. If i play soccer (football) does that mean that i cant also play football? No. They are 2 very different things, but i can do both. I can play soccer (football) and sometimes also play football. Now, if go out and just start kicking a ball and throwing a ball, or just run around tackling people, am still playing football or football....No.

This^

Again we all understand the difference between parkour and free-running, and some people train for both. The "its all movement" thing is not because we think its all movement, its because we are sick of fighting over it.

And this^
 
How I see the whole 'its all movement' argument, its basically a blunt way of putting " Hey im doing whatever I feel suits me, im not confined to one discipline." 

I truly respect parkour for what it is, and I believe it deserves to be properly "labeled" and properly presented to the world, and that WE do have a responsibility to teach those what it really is, but arguing amongst ourselves over the semantics all the time is probably hurting parkour as much as those improperly labeling, by dividing ourselfs and getting elitist attitudes believing one discipline is better than the other.
Next thing you know it will be like you parkour guys are team A and you free runner guys are team B and the two will develop mixed feelings towards each other, and thats not what its about. I would hate to train with pure parkour guys that judged me because I like to throw a flip here and there.. You can have your preferred style, but real mastery involves learning a little bit of EVERYTHING, because it expands overall growth...

And Im not trying to step on anyones toes because everyone makes good points, but personally I think highly skilled free runners who've also up took in gymnastics, gain more skill and are more in tune with their body mechanics than someone who ONLY practiced strict parkour...
And just because you ONLY train parkour does not mean that in a real life parkour needed situation that youd be more efficient than the flip happy free runner.. That will simply depend on the person.

For example, I know some track runners who probably could do "parkour" better than half the traceurs Ive ever trained with, just for sheer speed, endurance and overall athletic ability...
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 31, 2010, 09:14:48 AM
I dont think this quite works against Drews point, because he is arguing, the same as David Belle, that there is only one parkour, not many.

But, truly we shouldnt look at flips as whether or not we do parkour. Parkour is where your training is rooted. I do parkour, but I had been tumbling long before i ever did parkour, and because of that, doing flips is a part of who i am. So if i am doing parkour, and do a flip, does that mean that i no longer am doing parkour? No, it means that flips are something that i enjoy and occasionally i might do them while at the same time that im doing parkour.

Now what i do have a problem with is when i see people ONLY doing flips and stunts and calling it parkour, because that is not parkour. If parkour is not where your training is rooted, then you are just doing stunts. If all you do is go outside and flip off of things, you are just doing stunts. Not parkour or freerunning or any one of the alternate words for parkour.

Let me also put it in terms of football and football. If i play soccer (football) does that mean that i cant also play football? No. They are 2 very different things, but i can do both. I can play soccer (football) and sometimes also play football. Now, if go out and just start kicking a ball and throwing a ball, or just run around tackling people, am still playing football or football....No.

Let me also put it in terms of martial arts and more relevant ma tricking. I am a martial artist. I practice traditional martial arts, but i also do martial arts tricking. Does that make me no longer a traditional martial artist? No, because my training is rooted in traditional martial arts, but i can also do martial arts tricking. Also i do multiple styles of martial arts. Lets take kung fu, and tae kwan do. If i do tae kwan do, am i no longer doing kung fu..No, they are 2 different styles and i can do both. But if i just walk around punching people, am i doing either of them... No, because then my training is not rooted in traditional martial arts, i am just running around punching people. That is not martial arts, the same as just doing stunts is not parkour.

I realize this post might make no sense to some people, so if it does, good, and if not, oh well.

It's all subjective.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 09:18:25 AM
Its really not. Just saying that doesn't make it so.  Don't get me started on the reality distortion field.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 09:25:47 AM
by dividing ourselfs and getting elitist attitudes believing one discipline is better than the other.

I'd also hate to see this. On the rare occasions that I train with other people, they tend not to share my philosophies or methods but this doesn't create hostility. I don't see why the point about this "divide" is getting brought up though. Nobody here is attacking the non-traceurs, unless you count "it seems that what you train isn't strictly parkour" as some kind of insult.

Quote
And Im not trying to step on anyones toes because everyone makes good points, but personally I think highly skilled free runners who've also up took in gymnastics, gain more skill and are more in tune with their body mechanics than someone who ONLY practiced strict parkour...

I don't see why this would necessarily be true, but it's an interesting point nonetheless. I'm not going to debate it here though. Nice post.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 31, 2010, 09:25:59 AM
Its really not. Just saying that doesn't make it so.  Don't get me started on the reality distortion field.

Prove it.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 09:32:28 AM
Im really not getting into a conceptual relativism argument here.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Kendy on August 31, 2010, 09:32:39 AM
Prove it.

I'm god I dont have to
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 31, 2010, 09:36:24 AM
Im really not getting into a conceptual relativism argument here.

Hurray to miss the point!

The point is that arguing all of this shit is stupid, because it is all subjective.  Talk is boring, doing is fun; go train.

I'm god I dont have to

Prove that you're god.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Kendy on August 31, 2010, 09:38:15 AM
Prove that you're god.

In about 30 seconds you'll feel your entire body start to tighten, but feel all light and tingly
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 31, 2010, 09:39:23 AM
In about 30 seconds you'll feel your entire body start to tighten, but feel all light and tingly

t.t

You win.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andy Keller on August 31, 2010, 09:39:55 AM
We should either stay on topic, or let the thread die...
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 09:43:00 AM
The point is that arguing all of this shit is stupid, because it is all subjective.

I gained a few pockets of insight from the discourse so I don't consider it stupid. Your contention that "all of this is stupid" is likewise a subjective one.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Dan Elric on August 31, 2010, 09:44:22 AM
I gained a few pockets of insight from the discourse so I don't consider it stupid. Your contention that "all of this is stupid" is likewise a subjective one.

See, now you're thinking.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 31, 2010, 09:44:49 AM
if anyone here would do a flip in a true emergency you are seriously misunderstanding the core concept of whatever motion art you practice.

if you got into a fight would you try and do a backflip? then why would you bother doing a flip running from someone?

wasting energy doesnt get you anywhere. go ahead and argue these points, your only going to look stupid.


I've already given a solid example of when a front flip would be a good choice instead of other non-flipping actions - the barbed wire/razorwire fence. But please, go make me look stupid by trying to vault such an obstacle. Post pictures, too.

Quote
here this answers OP's question, a flip is not practical, end of discussion. if you want to argue philosophies start a new thread.

Steve, I generally really like your comments and attitude/philosophy, but for the same reason as I mentioned to max, I don't think this is the best answer to the OP question.

Quote
Its really not. Just saying that doesn't make it so.  Don't get me started on the reality distortion field.

Likewise, saying that it's not doesn't make it so either. I've given concrete examples of credible people who disagree with you. People who were instrumental in founding the discipline you now claim to define in your own terms. The very ESSENCE of subjectivism.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FreeStyleFox on August 31, 2010, 09:47:36 AM
If you wanna flip flip.  If you don't wanna flip or your afraid to then either push your fear or dont flip.  Just don't argue about it.  Its their way not yours.  Just because its not your movement doesn't give you the right to say it shouldn't be theirs.  /end

Now if you wanna talk about how they can be used in a practical manner by all means go ahead just stop trolling other peoples posts people.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 09:52:18 AM
Are we just pretending that we didn't have the yamakasi discussion?

And CHRIST people not one person has said 'dont flip' im just for calling it what it is.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Artisticflow87 on August 31, 2010, 09:57:23 AM
I'd also hate to see this. On the rare occasions that I train with other people, they tend not to share my philosophies or methods but this doesn't create hostility. I don't see why the point about this "divide" is getting brought up though. Nobody here is attacking the non-traceurs, unless you count "it seems that what you train isn't strictly parkour" as some kind of insult.

I don't see why this would necessarily be true, but it's an interesting point nonetheless. I'm not going to debate it here though. Nice post.

Im not insulted, my point of view is more from the sidelines because I tend to not care too much what others say. If I want to train strict parkour I will do so, or if I want to free run I will do so, because I believe you can become good in both without taking anything from either of them. These types of arguments are more so just expressing the understanding of the politics involved and proper labeling of activities, which never really comes to my mind at any point when I train, because training is about YOU and your own personal exploration with your abilities. Which is why I personally dont like to label myself a tricker, free runner or traceur, Im just me, but if people ask what Im doing I will properly answer them as Andrew stresses we should do, which is true, and I respect this type of effort to stay true to parkour for what it is...

Theres too many variables to completely generalize one discipline from the other, this is all opinionated but I personally believe that the body mechanics involved in all out gymnastics and tricking surpass a lot of the strict parkour mechanics in regards to athleticism and strength, which has practicality in overall body control even in a parkour situation that doesnt involve flipping..Obviously in a situation needing a fast escape no one is going to be flipping, I dont care how good you are at it.

I see free runners ( the real ones, not the dumb stunt guys) as people who either like to entertain or highly skilled people who just want new and ''more difficult'' challenges for themselves, even though they can be just as proficient in pure parkour if they wanted to...

And like I mentioned earlier, if you want to really be good at parkour, start with running track and marathons for awhile... Just because you can kong and stride a set of walls doesnt mean you can get away from someone who is faster and jumps higher than you.

You see, theres all kinds of disciplines that builds to your ability to do "parkour" try them all and see what you can really be.
 
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 31, 2010, 10:00:37 AM
Are we just pretending that we didn't have the yamakasi discussion?


We did. You gave tempered response that somewhat insinuated the Yamakasi have a selfish interest in people's opinion (my reading, forgiveness if I misunderstood). My point is merely that they disagree with you, and neither of you are "wrong" thus it is - subjective.

Quote
And CHRIST people not one person has said 'dont flip' im just for calling it what it is.

I think it's more that your response seemed overly feiry and angry compared to the tone of the thread. But I know a thing or two about writing such things, so I'm not breaking balls.

This topic is getting out of hand though - I won't post any more responses that don't specifically discuss the "practicality of flips and all that crap."
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FreeStyleFox on August 31, 2010, 10:00:58 AM
@Hull Its not the youtubers or anybody else that matters.  Its the process.  If we can teach them the love, the heart, the respect, and the joy of the process and of the discipline it all leads down pretty much the same roads.  Not every one will listen.  Not every one will have the heart.  Not every one will care enough.  As parkour freerunning and l'add get more popular the more people we have to teach this love to.  Not every one can love something this way.  

No matter what you say or do people will always put labels to things that dont fit.  In 20 years we will still have people jumping off roof, doing flips and calling it parkour wile video taping it.  We can not change this.  What we can do is educate.  And what we should be doing is teaching the love, the heart, the respect, and the joy.  If you can teach them this they will train for life.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 10:14:34 AM
@Hull Its not the youtubers or anybody else that matters.  Its the process.  If we can teach them the love, the heart, the respect, and the joy of the process and of the discipline it all leads down pretty much the same roads.  Not every one will listen.  Not every one will have the heart.  Not every one will care enough.  As parkour freerunning and l'add get more popular the more people we have to teach this love to.  Not every one can love something this way.  

No matter what you say or do people will always put labels to things that dont fit.  In 20 years we will still have people jumping off roof, doing flips and calling it parkour wile video taping it.  We can not change this.  What we can do is educate.  And what we should be doing is teaching the love, the heart, the respect, and the joy.  If you can teach them this they will train for life.

this sums up how i feel in a way i myself could not possibly put in words. (i guess this is why fox is a mod)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 10:15:45 AM
Im not insulted, my point of view is more from the sidelines because I tend to not care too much what others say. If I want to train strict parkour I will do so, or if I want to free run I will do so, because I believe you can become good in both without taking anything from either of them. These types of arguments are more so just expressing the understanding of the politics involved and proper labeling of activities, which never really comes to my mind at any point when I train, because training is about YOU and your own personal exploration with your abilities. Which is why I personally dont like to label myself a tricker, free runner or traceur, Im just me, but if people ask what Im doing I will properly answer them as Andrew stresses we should do, which is true, and I respect this type of effort to stay true to parkour for what it is...

Theres too many variables to completely generalize one discipline from the other, this is all opinionated but I personally believe that the body mechanics involved in all out gymnastics and tricking surpass a lot of the strict parkour mechanics in regards to athleticism and strength, which has practicality in overall body control even in a parkour situation that doesnt involve flipping..Obviously in a situation needing a fast escape no one is going to be flipping, I dont care how good you are at it.

I see free runners ( the real ones, not the dumb stunt guys) as people who either like to entertain or highly skilled people who just want new and ''more difficult'' challenges for themselves, even though they can be just as proficient in pure parkour if they wanted to...

And like I mentioned earlier, if you want to really be good at parkour, start with running track and marathons for awhile... Just because you can kong and stride a set of walls doesnt mean you can get away from someone who is faster and jumps higher than you.

You see, theres all kinds of disciplines that builds to your ability to do "parkour" try them all and see what you can really be.
 

Another good post. I agree with most of what you say. The only point I'd like to pick out is the one about gymnastics and trickers. Not because I disagree, but because I think I could add a little perspective to it.

High level gymnasts are physically superior to traceurs in terms of their incredible functional strength and skills, no doubt about that- they have to be. The thing to remember though is the cost: re-constructive surgery. Neither discipline is inferior though. Gymnasts perform incredible feats and obliterate their joints, it's a choice of theirs. Traceurs aim for a steady, lasting life (etre et durer) and as such limit their capacity for expression and movement. None of these outlooks is more correct than the other, it's just a matter of preference. I hope that by reading this, you see that I'm not trying to compare arts to find which is "better" and I'm not telling people what to train. All I'm interested in is exploring how a traceur should prioritise their training to align with the goals of parkour if "parkour" is what they strive to be good at. I'm not trying to be unreasonable.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andrew Hull on August 31, 2010, 10:16:06 AM
Okay, I’m sorry that I come across fiery on this subject, as it’s a matter that is hitting close to home ATM. We have a group in Orlando that claim to do and teach “Parkour” but are the worst kind of irresponsible, disrespectful, and dangerous stunt heads. They have (over the course of a year of trying) REFUSED to change, adapt, or grow and are doing considerable damage to our local community and credibility. The part that hurts the worst is they INSIST on calling what they do Parkour despite every indication to the contrary. So yes, I am ALL ABOUT education. This just happens to be an open wound as it stands right now.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FreeStyleFox on August 31, 2010, 10:18:43 AM
@Hull best way to respond though this is though doing it the right way and not really fighting them but leading by example.  I mean you didn't have a joke with the ADAPT cert traveling an hour and half trying to steal your students.  And he is a joke.  I can go into detail later.  If you like but not on a public forum.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: aarontp on August 31, 2010, 10:19:48 AM
Can I intervene? This hasn't become an informational "I ask you answer" post, this has become an argument, and it's annoying. I don't really care anymore, I don't think I'm going to ask questions like that anymore though.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 10:22:23 AM
lead by example seems like a far better way to teach than to fight.
 
Can I intervene? This hasn't become an informational "I ask you answer" post, this has become an argument, and it's annoying. I don't really care anymore, I don't think I'm going to ask questions like that anymore though.
you can ask questions, but placement is important, i think this thread would have done better in the movement section than general discussion.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FreeStyleFox on August 31, 2010, 10:24:32 AM
Tex its his post ;)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: max eisenberg on August 31, 2010, 10:26:59 AM
I've already given a solid example of when a front flip would be a good choice instead of other non-flipping actions - the barbed wire/razorwire fence. But please, go make me look stupid by trying to vault such an obstacle. Post pictures, too.


really? how exactly are you going to flip over a 10 foot high barbed wire fence? you cant actually be serious.

if you can flip over something you can jump it, ive climbed over barbed wire fences, quickly might i add. it isnt all that hard, you just have to watch what you are doing.

when did i ever say a vault is the only way to cross your obstacle?

so again, really?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andy Keller on August 31, 2010, 10:38:47 AM
TROLLTROLLTROLLFEST

I wish I had something genuine to say that would stop all this bickering.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 31, 2010, 10:40:54 AM
Perhaps we should create a list of what everyone agrees on with what a traceur/parkour is, and move on from there.

A traceur is respectful, for the environment, others, and self.

Parkour is efficient, and has ideas of longevity.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 31, 2010, 10:44:00 AM
@Max: Maybe you should READ people's comments before posting your own:


How about this: a teammate of mine brought up the excellent example of a chest high barbwire/razorwire fence with say a 8' drop on the other side. Are you planning to kong vault it? Dash vault perhaps? Certainly a dive roll is not a great idea...as I mentioned, I just have to find ONE example;-)

Now maybe you're assuming I'm 12' tall. I'm not. I'm 6'. So chest high for me is about 4' 8". Yes I can do a front flip over a fence this high. If you can't, then certainly don't.

Now if YOUR contention is that you can climb a barbed wire or razor wire (ouch!) 4' 8" foot fence with an 8' drop on the other side as fast as I can front flip it...well...I'll agree to disagree on that.

The original post was about practicality, and in parkour this argument tends to be focused on efficiency. Maybe you aren't concerned with efficiency so much as just getting over an object somehow. In that case, sure, climb it instead of flipping it. At that point I'd probably just walk around it though.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 10:47:51 AM
Perhaps we should create a list of what everyone agrees on with what a traceur/parkour is, and move on from there.

A traceur is respectful, for the environment, others, and self.

Parkour is efficient, and has ideas of longevity.
not in this thread.

@Max: Maybe you should READ people's comments before posting your own:

Now maybe you're assuming I'm 12' tall. I'm not. I'm 6'. So chest high for me is about 4' 8". Yes I can do a front flip over a fence this high. If you can't, then certainly don't.

Now if YOUR contention is that you can climb a barbed wire or razor wire (ouch!) 4' 8" foot fence with an 8' drop on the other side as fast as I can front flip it...well...I'll agree to disagree on that.

The original post was about practicality, and in parkour this argument tends to be focused on efficiency. Maybe you aren't concerned with efficiency so much as just getting over an object somehow. In that case, sure, climb it instead of flipping it. At that point I'd probably just walk around it though.

i think if you have the ability to flip and it is the best option then it is practical, if you are not comfortable with flips and you are more comfortable with a different move then that move would be a better option. it will be different from person to person. but that's what makes this discipline great, there is no ONE right answer, we all have our own way to overcome and obstacle and our own unique style.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FreeStyleFox on August 31, 2010, 10:49:53 AM
I tried and Andy tried.  Closing arguments any one?  This has gone far and wide from the OP's topic and he is tired of the arguing.  I think around 10pm EST I will lock this.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 31, 2010, 10:51:44 AM
Perhaps you should just split the topic Fox?
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 31, 2010, 10:51:53 AM
@Max: Maybe you should READ people's comments before posting your own:

Now maybe you're assuming I'm 12' tall. I'm not. I'm 6'. So chest high for me is about 4' 8". Yes I can do a front flip over a fence this high. If you can't, then certainly don't.

Now if YOUR contention is that you can climb a barbed wire or razor wire (ouch!) 4' 8" foot fence with an 8' drop on the other side as fast as I can front flip it...well...I'll agree to disagree on that.

You'll also have the increased danger of over rotating, (head first into an 8' drop doesn't sound fun.) and not tucking well enough. (Catching yourself on the wire, just like Max might.)

You'd have to make SURE you are ready and have perfect technique with the flip before it becomes "more efficient" than Max's fence climb.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 10:52:41 AM
i think if you have the ability to flip and it is the best option then it is practical, if you are not comfortable with flips and you are more comfortable with a different move then that move would be a better option. it will be different from person to person. but that's what makes this discipline great, there is no ONE right answer, we all have our own way to overcome and obstacle and our own unique style.

my closing comment.

Perhaps you should just split the topic Fox?
there is a topic on definitions going on right now. look at general evan.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 10:53:34 AM
http://www.americanparkour.com/smf/index.php/topic,29446.0.html
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: MThomasfreerun on August 31, 2010, 10:54:04 AM
You'll also have the increased danger of over rotating, (head first into an 8' drop doesn't sound fun.) and not tucking well enough. (Catching yourself on the wire, just like Max might.)

You'd have to make SURE you are ready and have perfect technique with the flip before it becomes "more efficient" than Max's fence climb.

agreed 100%. It's not gonna be the right choice for everyone every time. The question was merely, "can it be practical?" And I have tried to provide an example of when it might be. I wasn't being an ass when I said "If you can't, then certainly don't."
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: WoodlandGhillie on August 31, 2010, 10:55:09 AM
http://www.americanparkour.com/smf/index.php/topic,29446.0.html

Thanks. I guess that one missed an email notification.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 11:00:09 AM
Flips have a narrow window of practicality. In parkour, it is better to stay broad to begin with and practise fundamental skills. You should only specialise in these incredibly narrow situations later on. If you want to do flips anyway, that's fine, but strictly speaking is separate to your core parkour training. I think this answers the question. This is my closing argument.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 11:02:50 AM
Flips have a narrow window of practicality. In parkour, it is better to stay broad to begin with and practise fundamental skills. You should only specialise in these incredibly narrow situations later on. If you want to do flips anyway, that's fine, but strictly speaking is separate to your core parkour training. I think this answers the question. This is my closing argument.

why not practice many different things to prepare for any situation?
also as far as training goes flips could be practical in the sense they help physically and mentally. self improvement.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 11:06:19 AM
why not practice many different things to prepare for any situation?
also as far as training goes flips could be practical in the sense they help physically and mentally. self improvement.

I already gave my opinions on this earlier in the thread:
http://www.americanparkour.com/smf/index.php/topic,29314.msg368676.html#msg368676
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andy Keller on August 31, 2010, 11:13:24 AM
Last call, ladies and gentlemen. Topic will be closed at 10pm EST.

It's not worth trying to split.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: max eisenberg on August 31, 2010, 11:48:19 AM
last call you say?

i have nothing to add but, safety first.   :P
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 11:52:00 AM
safety first.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FreeStyleFox on August 31, 2010, 12:22:09 PM
Safety second.  Because you always forget what you put first but if you are putting safety second then you are always thinking about it because its not something we hear every day.   ;)
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: hfksla on August 31, 2010, 12:44:24 PM
Saftey's overrated... DiVeRoLlInToAtRuCk!
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Artisticflow87 on August 31, 2010, 02:38:21 PM
Another good post. I agree with most of what you say. The only point I'd like to pick out is the one about gymnastics and trickers. Not because I disagree, but because I think I could add a little perspective to it.

High level gymnasts are physically superior to traceurs in terms of their incredible functional strength and skills, no doubt about that- they have to be. The thing to remember though is the cost: re-constructive surgery. Neither discipline is inferior though. Gymnasts perform incredible feats and obliterate their joints, it's a choice of theirs. Traceurs aim for a steady, lasting life (etre et durer) and as such limit their capacity for expression and movement. None of these outlooks is more correct than the other, it's just a matter of preference. I hope that by reading this, you see that I'm not trying to compare arts to find which is "better" and I'm not telling people what to train. All I'm interested in is exploring how a traceur should prioritise their training to align with the goals of parkour if "parkour" is what they strive to be good at. I'm not trying to be unreasonable.

I agree, and no I dont think your trying to compare arts, your just making points.. As far as one of your points, I think that being a gymnast or traceur can both wear out the body over time and thats just the natural way of things, but it will come down to how far you are trying to take either of them. Gymnastics isnt all about tumbling, think of the raw calithestics strength you gain on the rings or bars (can improve dynos, climbs, muscle ups) or the amazing balance you gain on the balance beams, not to mention the muscle conditioning and explosiveness gained in your legs from gymnastic tumbling, in addition to gymnastic flexibility which reduces injury and pulled muscles..

Sometimes training for something else benefits other movements and activities too, but a major flaw I find in gymnastics is that its too structured and theres too many rules. Were id shine light on high skilled trickers in this argument is that they are probably more capable of compromising, and more creativity, & instinctual in their movements due to the difficult array of skills they are able to link together randomly. But both gymnasts and trickers both share cunning body control and are able to land on their feet from weird awkward positions without disorientation. You never know when such body awareness can come in hand, even in a isolated parkour situation.

But, overall for the sake of just being able to turn a flip without ''mastery'', there wont be much practicallity in flipping itself. In a real life situation if your trying to escape something/someone, It will generally come down to who has the most endurance and power to get fastest from point A to B... Power = (force x distance) ÷ time... Id assume at least 80% of your energy is going to be in straight out running as fast as you can, the other maybe 20% in climbing or leaping from something, and if you guys want to talk about practicality, there wont be anymore practicallity than running training to increase speed/distance. So instead of worrying about free runners and there flips, maybe the die hard traceurs should spend more time flat out running to increase endurance and speed, and work outs that involve increasing leg power and less time climbing rails and walls ( that is, if it really is all about the most useful practical thing to do under said circumstances) because Im willing to bet most of us dont live in an environment with architecture that calls for much "parkour training" aside from just running..Well I know I dont, I live in Tampa Florida with boring square houses and trees and flat land, and not much of a big city down town area.
Thus with that said, lets all just have fun and properly educate people in what we are doing...


I dont post much so figure Id say everything Im thinking... Ok Im done.  :-X
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 03:07:30 PM
Gymnastics isnt all about tumbling, think of the raw calithestics strength you gain on the rings or bars

It was the gymnastics rings I was referring to specifically. At the top level, athletes are expected to be able to hold and transition from the Maltese Cross which the human shoulder simply cannot deal with. I don't remember the exact figures from the article I read but basically all of these athletes end up destroying their shoulders and needing corrective surgery. At a (much) lower level though, this of course won't be the case.

Quote
But, overall for the sake of just being able to turn a flip without ''mastery'', there wont be much practicallity in flipping itself. In a real life situation if your trying to escape something/someone, It will generally come down to who has the most endurance and power to get fastest from point A to B... Power = (force x distance) ÷ time... Id assume at least 80% of your energy is going to be in straight out running as fast as you can, the other maybe 20% in climbing or leaping from something, and if you guys want to talk about practicality, there wont be anymore practicallity than running speed. So instead of worrying about free runners and there flips, maybe the die hard traceurs should spend more time flat out running to increase endurance and speed, and work outs that involve increasing leg power and less time climbing rails and walls ( that is, if it really is all about the most useful practical thing to do under said circumstances) because Im willing to bet most of us dont live in an environment with architecture that calls for much "parkour training" aside from just running..Well I know I dont, I live in Florida with boring square houses and trees and flat land, and not much of a down town.
Thus with that said, lets all just have fun and properly educate people in what we are doing...

I agree with this completely. Running is underrated and under-trained, yet completely vital to parkour. It should be the number one priority to train for a typical chase/reach scenario.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 03:13:12 PM
I agree with this completely. Running is underrated and under-trained, yet completely vital to parkour. It should be the number one priority to train for a typical chase/reach scenario.

speak for yourself. just because i don't post that i run doesn't mean i don't run, just seems redundant to post it.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Artisticflow87 on August 31, 2010, 03:20:30 PM
speak for yourself. just because i don't post that i run doesn't mean i don't run, just seems redundant to post it.

Its just a point to be made, I run all the time because Im into other sports, but from my own experience Ive yet to train with traceurs who spend any of their training day actually running for any amount of time worth speaking about... Which this is something I should put light on, to further everyones growth with different ways to train parkour...

Most of my parkour training experiences goes like this- standing around talking about stuff to climb or precision or kong or stride, try it a few times, sit down and talk about it some more, then move on to the next...

luke, yea we are on the same page just different ways of saying it.

This conversation makes me want to just go back to the good ol little kid days of playing tag or man hunt for another method of training parkour. Basically simulate real parkour situations, and having a group of people chasing each other around a given area as fast as they can, plus that would probably be fun...

Edit: Something else I just thought of, do any of you guys ever use a stop watch to time yourself on how quickly you do something during your training. Like say going from one side of something to the other etc... Ive never seen it, but something Im going to try also. Set a course and time each other, so less time focusing on conventional parkour skills, and more time focusing on what actually works the fastest in getting across your enviroment, whatever that may look like....
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Luke MC on August 31, 2010, 03:26:24 PM
speak for yourself. just because i don't post that i run doesn't mean i don't run, just seems redundant to post it.

ArtisticFlow's response to this pretty much sums up what I'd say. Running is most definitely under-trained. Not by every single practitioner- as I know there are many who put the work in- but by the parkour scene as a whole. At least in my limited experience and travels.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 03:32:51 PM
ArtisticFlow's response to this pretty much sums up what I'd say. Running is most definitely under-trained. Not by every single practitioner- as I know there are many who put the work in- but by the parkour scene as a whole. At least in my limited experience and travels.

i was playing with you. i do how ever run a lot.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Rafe on August 31, 2010, 04:28:01 PM
When ever someone says any chase emergency would just be running or just be speed vaults I think they lack experience and imagination. I grew up out in rural community with allot of independence and had some scary running away situations happen not mention playing tag and chase in the woods allot. Being able to do complex movements that require agility and co-ordination is important. It is also my opinion that generally being able to run far is not nearly as important as being fast, Nobody starts out a race at 8 minute mile pace its always a sprint first if you can quickly put distance between you and your opponent they will usually give up.

When I was 12 my neighbor caught me stealing adult magazine from his shop, I bolted, ended up running about hundred yards through the woods which included jumping over a fallen tree scrambling through bushes and jumping over a bike jump before he gave up the chase. Of course he was my next door neighbor so my victory was short lived as he just waited for me at my house and chewed me out there when I slunk back.

Another time I found a cabin in the woods with some friends, which turned out to be scarily filled with rifles and handguns, after poking around these guns for awhile we had gotten pretty freaked out, we heard a loud noise and bolted, the cabin was on a slope and had a back porch facing the slope we were afraid the guy who owned the place was coming through the front door so ended up taking the drop down from the porch 6-7 feet then sliding down this slope scrambling through bushes down to the stream we had been climbing up running down that bouncing rock to rock till we got the too logging road that had brought us there.

In second grade I got the brillant Idea to assault a 5th grader with 4 buddies for fun. They jumped on his ankles while I jumped of the big toy and tackled him and punched him around the ears. A teacher caught us and we all got detention, the next day though he caught me alone on the playground and started chasing me, I ran to a set of concrete pipes that were too narrow for bigger kids to slid into it and waited the him out untill recess was over, after that we ended up talking in detention and becoming friends.

Finally as bouncer I had to chase people down a few times the obstacles there were people usually then it was all about dogding and maneuvering and screaming for them to move but once a patron got pissed of and kicked out a window next door and I really thought I was going to have to vault something to catch him as I was anticipating him turning behind some concrete blocks, sadly he was to slow and I caught him before he could put the object between us,  :-[ I really wanted to kong to tackle that guy.

There are arguments that flips can benefit air awareness and body control and may be usefull in some pretty rare situations. I think those arguments are not well supported but learning a few flips certainly won't hurt your PK.
 
I have done time trials through numerous enviroments played games of chase and tag and never once while trying to adapt and move as fast as possible through any enviroment has a flip seemed like a good idea despite having a background in gymnastics prior to parkour. I did have one athlete I trained who would throw double legs in courses with objects that were to soft to vault over and to high to jump(the hedge/barbwire idea) however he was very good tricker with minimal parkour experience I suspect had he spent the same attention to training basic jumps as flips he would have been able to jump over those objects with better control and safety then a flip offered. This the problem with ryan doyle example to if you train flips way more then jumps there might be situations that they're more usefull if you don't bias your training then I think that is pretty unlikely.

In any event I prefer to focus on a positive definition of parkour not a negative one, train to be usefull to be able to overcome obstacles as effectively as possible. If you think about that honestly the majority of your training will be simple movements, running, jumping, climbing and moving on all fours. If you do a flip now and then great if you find yourself focusing mostly on flips I don't think your doing Parkour anymore then a tricker is training for a streetfight whether the tricks are martial arts based or not.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FreeStyleFox on August 31, 2010, 04:35:27 PM
Thanks for you incite Rafe!  Your posts are always inspiring.  Also I love the quote in your sig!
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: DaveS on August 31, 2010, 05:11:49 PM
Just going to try and tie up a few loose ends in this thread.

The comparison between gymnasts and Parkour practitioners: The two groups practice different things. Gymnasts will be more physically capable, but less mentally capable. Gymnastics is a physical discipline, but Parkour is a complete discipline, physical and mental.

For movement purposes, acrobatics can be a useful way to get past some obstacles. Those obstacles aren't common, but they can exist.
For Parkour purposes, acrobatics can help us learn about ourselves by providing us with extra variety. We already have plenty of variety in practical movement to help us learn, but we can use it in Parkour if we do ever need more for whatever reason.

Running is a very practical way of moving around. It's the most efficient way to get from one place to another quickly. Also, flat ground is a very common obstacle.
However, the other side of the coin is that flat ground is also a very easy obstacle. For Parkour we want obstacles that challenge us, and flat ground presents a limited form of challenge for most of us. It's good to practice running sometimes, but the more capable you get the less practical it is to create challenges for yourself based on running.
Ultimately, the choice about whether or not to use running a lot in your Parkour should depend on what you are trying to improve through Parkour. Different kinds of challenge help you develop in different ways. We all need to learn about ourselves at the start, but at some point we also need to start improving ourselves in order to deal with the challenges life presents. Flips help us learn about ourselves, but they don't help us with the challenges we face in life as well as other things.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Rafe on August 31, 2010, 05:15:37 PM
On the topic of the physical development of gymnasts vs. traceurs, its not a fair comparison few traceurs are coached through the extensive training hours that even jr. level gymnasts go through. The gymnastics team I worked with had 8 year olds training 3 days a week 4 hours a day. The successfull level 9 and 10 programs would have kids doing split shift workouts doing 2 hours of conditioning in the morning and 3 hours of skill work in the afternoon. At the elite level 6 hours a day 5-6 days a week is normal and their training is far more directed then what the average traceurs calls training.

If we had athletes training with the same seriousness for parkour the would attain very similar levels of physical capacity.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FreeStyleFox on August 31, 2010, 05:17:24 PM
45 Minutes.  Rafe good point some people do train that hard and with that seriousness but it is uncommon for a most.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Artisticflow87 on August 31, 2010, 05:33:12 PM
Just going to try and tie up a few loose ends in this thread.

The comparison between gymnasts and Parkour practitioners: The two groups practice different things. Gymnasts will be more physically capable, but less mentally capable. Gymnastics is a physical discipline, but Parkour is a complete discipline, physical and mental.

For movement purposes, acrobatics can be a useful way to get past some obstacles. Those obstacles aren't common, but they can exist.
For Parkour purposes, acrobatics can help us learn about ourselves by providing us with extra variety. We already have plenty of variety in practical movement to help us learn, but we can use it in Parkour if we do ever need more for whatever reason.

Running is a very practical way of moving around. It's the most efficient way to get from one place to another quickly. Also, flat ground is a very common obstacle.
However, the other side of the coin is that flat ground is also a very easy obstacle. For Parkour we want obstacles that challenge us, and flat ground presents a limited form of challenge for most of us. It's good to practice running sometimes, but the more capable you get the less practical it is to create challenges for yourself based on running.
Ultimately, the choice about whether or not to use running a lot in your Parkour should depend on what you are trying to improve through Parkour. Different kinds of challenge help you develop in different ways. We all need to learn about ourselves at the start, but at some point we also need to start improving ourselves in order to deal with the challenges life presents. Flips help us learn about ourselves, but they don't help us with the challenges we face in life as well as other things.

Good post, the part I put in bold words is also the reason I see so many people transition from just doing parkour, to doing free running... Its more challenging in my opinion, and furthers their growth even if its not as practical, which is why I said IF it were really all about practicality then we'd just run...

Also you said gymnast are more physically capable but less mentally, Everyone is less capable mentally in something they dont regularly do vs someone who does, but there it is, give a traceur some gymnast training ( remaining true to parkour when its about parkour mind you) and he will re-enter the parkour scene as an upgraded and more versatile practitioner even if he never uses any of the flips he acquired. Even if its only for some of the sheer conditioning from the tumbling and other gymnastic activities . So I guess when we talk about practicality of flips we have to be specific... Practicality in escaping some one, nah. Practicality on personal, mental, physical growth, I think so...

& Rafe interesting stories.



Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: DaveS on August 31, 2010, 06:21:19 PM
Rafe, I generally agree, but since a Parkour practitioner generally has both mental and physical abilities to practice I think it is inevitable that there is less emphasis on physical training in Parkour than in gymnastics. With similar levels of time devoted to training that can only lead to less physical development, although I agree that the differences would be slight from the perspective of a member of the public.

Artisticflow, I think gymnasts are less capable of overcoming mental challenges in general. Challenges like getting up early in the morning, or finding a solution to a new problem. The mental abilities that these tasks use are not activity specific.
Gymnastics doesn't give you anything like the mental growth that Parkour does. Gymnasts never have to get past obstacles on their own, because their coaches tell them what to do every step of the way. Gymnasts don't train the mind like Parkour practitioners do because they're only concerned with physical performance. They will be less capable at dealing with mental challenges of all kinds.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Tex__ on August 31, 2010, 06:27:12 PM
Rafe i agree.

also you where a rambunctious little kids.
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: FreeStyleFox on August 31, 2010, 06:39:14 PM
Bob Barker reminding you: help control the pet population. Have your pet spayed or neutered. Goodbye, everybody!
Title: Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
Post by: Andy Keller on August 31, 2010, 06:44:09 PM
Glad this ended well. Thanks for the cooperation, everyone.