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Local Connections - USA => Hawaii => The Islands => Going Natural - Fitness the old school way. => Topic started by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 06:55:45 PM

Title: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 06:55:45 PM
What is MoVNat? (Method Naturelle)

MOVNAT is an outdoor functional training method designed to develop, maintain or restore the full range of natural human movement capacities such as walking, running, jumping, climbing, moving on all fours, balancing, lifting, carrying, throwing, catching, swimming and defending.

Through practice, fundamental physical qualities such as speed, strength, endurance, coordination and flexibility are developed. Training also necessitates and promotes the growth of essential mental and moral qualities like self-control, courage, will, focus, alertness, and respectfulness, solidarity, cooperation, and reciprocal altruism.

Lastly, just as MOVNAT promotes the return of the body’s natural physical capacities, it also encourages respect and concern for nature. We train to be able to move naturally, we train in nature, and we train to connect ourselves with the natural world and to care for it.

"One's got to be strong to be useful, not only to oneself, but to others"
Georges Hebert

"Any person", whoever he is, if he really wants to live his life to the full of his abilities, has towards himself some physical duties to fulfill, just as he has, in another point of view, some moral duties to perform and some social obligations to respect. These duties constitute physical morality. They can be embodied in a double formula: to develop oneself and to preserve oneself in order to be able to help others.

Appearing in France in 1905 and elaborated by Georges Herbert (1875-1957), the Natural Method is more than a simple concept of training for the body, it is a genuine physical and moral education method, based upon reliable experience and on over a century of history. Here is the definition given by the inventor himself:

A methodical, progressive/graduated and continuous action, from childhood to adulthood, aiming to ensure integral physical development; to increase organic resistances; to highlight the aptitudes in all kind of indispensable exercises, both natural and utilitarian; to develop the energy and all the other qualities of action; finally to subordinate all physical and manly gain to an idea of a prevailing moral: altruism!

Training by The Natural Method privileges movement in all its forms. The exercises are classified into 10 families which are:

Walking
Running
Jumping
Climbing
Quadrupedal movement ( moving on all 4 limbs)
Balancing
Lifting
Throwing
Defense
Swimming


All these exercises flow from one to another during a session of 40 to 60 minutes and enable complete and utilitarian physical development. Moving about, flexibility, freedom of individual action, continuity, alternation of effort and graduation of the intensity of work are the main teaching principles of the method. The sessions take place preferably outdoors in purpose-built spaces or not, but can also be held inside for reasons of convenience.

The Natural Method is intended for people of any condition regardless of age, sex or starting level of fitness. It has a practical and immediate application in everyday life, as well as in emergencies or danger, giving the ability to assist others in whatever form.

The motto of the method, to be strong to be useful, is in fact the condensed formula of the following sentence:

"One's got to be strong to be useful, not only to oneself, but to others".


Learn more about Georges Hebert here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Hebert)
Here is a VIDEO  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmMKgtoDGcU&fmt=18)example


I have seen that a few times, there are certain shots were he does look like him but I doubt it is.
there is another OLLLLLD video of an original Zorros episode with this guy doing crazy amazing stuff for his time. He was  a stunt man, you can see kongs, pop vault. I'll see if I can find it. His name was something Burbang I think.

Douglas Fairbanks was the original zorro :)

There you go, thanks.

Wow that dude on the video was pretty amazing.  I dunno bout that tire rolling, but the rest was unreal... Nice, thanks Ian

well it was from a 1930s movie about inventors.
so i think the tire rolling was from a different guy

here are some methode naturelle and movnat training videos

http://www.vimeo.com/1223381
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmMKgtoDGcU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLtncKujyjI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue8vHQrbwgE

I'm not sure if this is Herbert but its pretty amazing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3FheeVpFYo

Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 06:58:37 PM
Here is another one you all will love, pumps me to get our training going.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKGF-ErsJiI&eurl=http://www.parkourgenerations.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=423&p=2672&feature=player_embedded

ya i just saw that the other day.
its an awesome vid, i think he re-did an old video he made before

MOVNAT is Erwan Le Corre's update and expansion on Hebert's Natural Method. Unfortunately, the links to his stuff were all on .net, so they're all messed up.

This is from Rafe Kelley, Sept 2007. Rafe trained with Erwan Le Corre in France and has a background in many athletic endeavors including CrossFit and parkour.

This is the post I intended to open this blog with a statement about what I know about the Methode Naturelle as my training in Methode Naturelle is going to be the focus of this blog. Up until this spring my primary training focus had been parkour dating back to march of 2005, before that it was gymnastics though with substantially less dedication, and before that it was basketball and before that martial arts. I am now at the point that I can say that the Methode Naturelle has superseded parkour in my training as parkour superseded gymnastics, for me it is more primal more vital more complete like when I started training parkour I have the feeling of how in the world did I miss this before. Why didn’t I ever follow through on my desire to mix parkour training and self defense and why did I yearn for barbells, kettlebells etc when I had so many rocks and logs available to me, what possessed me to waste beautiful sunny days inside training crossfit?

So I am at the point were wish to dedicate my training to the Methode Naturelle and I wish to also help other people follow the same or a similar path. The complication though is that my understanding of the Methode Naturelle is still very incomplete I hesitate to call my training Methode Naturelle, I think of it rather as Methode Naturelle inspired. Imagine for instance you wanted dedicate your life to Muay Thai training but had only had a four-day seminar on it to base your training on. I do think that the Methode Naturelle is bit easier to explore on your own, the principles are relatively simple though the degree of depth possible is seemingly limitless. So the purpose of this post is to explore what I do infact now about the Methode Naturelle. …

The idea of training to have the essential capacities of our hunter forager ancestors had appealed to me ever since I started parkour. It was my goal to eventually open a school teaching what I saw as the original warrior arts. …

The aim of the Methode Naturelle is to develop a complete and healthy human being physically, mentally and morally through the training of the vital natural capacities of the human species that were necessary for our survival as hunter foragers. … The motto of the Methode Naturelle is etre forte pour etre utile meaning be strong to be useful. The training of the Methode Naturelle is not to reach an aesthetic goal or to win an athletic competition it is to prepare the individual to be a strong useful person capable of helping him or herself and the others around them in wide variety of situations.

The vital movement capacities of the Methode Naturelle are to walk, run, jump, climb, quadruped, balance, swim, lift, carry, throw and defend.

A Methode Naturelle training session should be between 20 and 60 minutes and include as many of the natural capacities as possible (generally). The ideal conditions for Methode Naturelle training are in a natural environment with as much of the body exposed to the elements as possible while maintaining modesty. Which is not to say you cannot train the Methode Naturelle in the city or a gym or with shoes on only that this training is not the ideal.

Training should be daily or close to it.

A Methode Naturelle session maybe natural or methodically which is to say one might simple start moving through there environment looking for ways to practice all of the natural capacities for a given time period or one might instead plan out specific route hitting specific capacities or even build a specific course to train each capacity. The obstacle courses seen throughout the world in military training are derived from this last method.

Training each of the ten capacities alone is not sufficient one must be able to chain them together. That is to train one capacity directly after the training of another capacity so that there is no rest between them. so the body is forced to learn to adapt to moving easily between different capacities. This can be very challenging; each capacity has specific physiological demands, which must shift when moving to a different capacity. Furthermore one should be able to mix capacities to be able to run, swim and balance while carrying for instance, or defend yourself while balancing, or swimming, or while climbing this of course adds yet another layer of challenge.

The Methode Naturelle aims to develop a generalized physical capacity not specializations. That is to say to it is the belief of the Methode Naturelle that the athlete who is able to run fast, but also far, to lift very heavy weights but also to climb, to defend himself but also to swim is more useful then the athlete who is peerless at any one of these activities but incompetent or even just less competent at the others. The Methode Naturelle is expressly non competitive because competitive sport is seen as not useful, friendly games are fine but the expression of excess that is modern sport is contrary to the goal of usefulness both in the aim to win at all costs and in the requirement for excessive specialization. The Methode Naturelle athlete, will never run with speed of the sprinter nor the endurance of the marathoner, he or she will never develop the upper body strength of the gymnast or the fighting mastery of the martial artist, he chooses instead, to be as good as he or she can at all of these things and more because he or she never knows what capacity will be called on, for him or her to be useful. According to the Methode Naturelle the generalist is the most useful athlete.

It seems to me very easy to adapt the Methode Naturelle towards developing specific attributes. I am not sure how Hebert approached this, however Erwan talked about seeking to always train the areas were you are weakest. I think this applies both to a specific capacity and also the duration, volume intensity of the training, so one might need to work on their overall running capacity or might specifically need more endurance, or more speed. This can be adjusted by including shorter or longer periods of relative rest (walking, balancing etc) the key is not to stop moving or rest completely. A Methode Naturelle session composed of lots of relative rest, and many short high intensity movements will develop strength, speed, and power, one were the pace is relatively constant and as hard as possible for the given session will develop cardio respiratory endurance, and stamina. My impression is that the later style of training is considered the more basic and important. The amount of relative rest and intensity of work is just one of the many ways in which you can vary your stimuli to develop a broad overall capacity. For instance perhaps one is very strong but lacking in accuracy and wishes to work on the throwing capacity, for this individual finding the heaviest rock he or she could and throwing it would be much less beneficial then finding rock that was much lighter and casting it at a challenging target. In the Methode Naturelle one should always adapt ones training in such a way as to strengthen your weaknesses.

One of the things Erwan often said about the Methode Naturelle was it was not a conditioning program like Crossfit, or RKC or similar functional fitness programs. The Methode Naturelle is an entire method for the development of the human animal. In modern athletics we often dichotomize practice vs. conditioning, one develops technique the other develops physical attributes. This dichotomy is false though, doing precision jumps will develop strength, power, and stamina for jumping as well as correct technique, while doing dead lifts or squats will not only increase the strength of the legs but also will develop a specific lifting skill. I believe this dichotomy arises because of specialization, for instance sprinting is to specific a physical capacity to develop the entire ability of the human being so in order to be the best sprinter one must also lift, and jump and do various other drills but when one trains for a complete physical adaptation the distinction between skill and condition disappears almost completely, when your goal is simply an overall adaptation does it matter if your ability to climb is more due to finger strength or more due to correct technique? If one continues to train correctly both skill and condition should advance together.

… What I have seen consistently though is that the athlete with a highly developed overall physical capacity will need very little time to learn the skill of the athlete who focuses on technique. Traceurs often seem obsessed with developing the saut du chat technique for instance and there are constantly questions on how to do it. I train gymnasts though and they will do this technique very well with absolutely no training at all simply when given an obstacle to overcome were this is an appropriate technique. In short fundamental training proceeds technical training in importance.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:02:40 PM
I've been posting a LOT of MN related stuff. Why?

Unlike Honolulu, most of Maui is unpaved. As much as I love parkour, it just isn't catching on here, yet. So I see 2 ways to go - freerunning for the flippy dance acrobatic people, and MN or MovNat, or some hybrid for me.

I'm going to keep looking for stuff, but don't hold your breath... unless you're underwater, training your dives Grin

http://movnat.com/

Erwan's site is up... how much info? Not much. It's propaganda and $eminar ads.

THIS ARTICLE IN MEN'S HEALTH (http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=motivation&conitem=7d7caa4e23adf110VgnVCM10000013281eac____) has way more useful information. Sigh.

Nice article.  Definitely learned a few new things.

I really like this it makes complete sense.

"The Methode Naturelle athlete, will never run with speed of the sprinter nor the endurance of the marathoner, he or she will never develop the upper body strength of the gymnast or the fighting mastery of the martial artist, he chooses instead, to be as good as he or she can at all of these things and more because he or she never knows what capacity will be called on, for him or her to be useful. According to the Methode Naturelle the generalist is the most useful athlete."

Update, just read the Mens Health one.  Couldn't stop reading. The information is really awesome.

http://naturalathletics.blogspot.com/

This is Rafe Kelley's blog -- he was Faelcind over on APK and .net ... one of the "No Competition" toe-running guys from PKWA.
This is good stuff, and inspiring. I want to go out and train MN now.

this was a great read. ill read the links later when i get on my comp
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:08:25 PM
Video: “MovNat - Erwan Le Corre Barefoot Running”
Natural movement: Erwan Le Corre
Filmmaking: Timothy Kahn
Music: “Sampling Memory” by Tryad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwbzpyterI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmovnat%2Ecom%2Fmedia%2Fvideo&feature=player_embedded

The article had some stuff in sidebars that didn't get onto the net version.

Run without stopping - despite flying sticks, sand, rocks... overcome obstacles without slowing.
Humans can innovate and cooperate... so find creative ways to work together.

Sample workout [repeat cycle 2-5 times]

Evade
QM monkey 20 yards, sprint 50 yards, jog back, QM crab 20 yards, sprint 50 yards

Escape
Long jump, run a few strides [repeat 10x]
Jog to 12" obstacle [step, bench, log]
Jump over it back & forth 10x

Attack
Run to pull-up bar. Pull-up to failure.
20 reps each: punch, knee kicks, elbows
Sprint 50 yards, jog 50 yards [x4]

Balance
Squat til fingers touch ground. Walk 10' line without bouncing. Stand --> squat 5x. Precision a couple feet away. [repeat section 5x]

Rescue
Jog to 50# weight. Lift to waist. Carry 15'. Hoist to chest. Push-throw it. Sprint to it. Repeat.

But his own workouts are nothing like this.

Nice examples.

Im guessing his is much more extreme?

You think we should put the MOVNAT vids in the pic/vid section?

Not sure if you guys know but we do already have a MOVNAT thread HERE (http://hawaiipk.com/forum/index.php?topic=818.0) If anything this should go on the fitness section.
Plus we now need to combine the two threads. The other one has more vids to.

On the vid,

How did they keep the camera so steady. I remember Gregg you told me once we need a steady cam (after you saw the falls vid)
Is that just a camera that stays steady no matter what?

I remember Ian made a MN thread but forgot where. Thanks.  I agree we should combine and move to fitness.
Gregg's translate of the MN manuals are pretty useful too.

I was wondering about the cam work too. At first I thought maybe they were on a bike or something motorized, but the rocky part changed my mind, and it is just way too steady for something like that.  That would be a really useful function to have...

I noticed he has a wide angle lens on. What type/size of wide angle/fisheye lens do you guys use? I just ordered a x.5 for $25... Good enough?


We have yet to get one of those  :(

Hmm I thought you already had it. Your videos look pretty wide.  My camcorder probably just isn't as good.  I need upgrade with wat I can.  ;)

The MOVNAT vids should be in the vids thread, but the discussion about MN and MovNat theory and practice shouldn't be in the video thread.

A Steadi-cam has gyro stabilizers in the assembly that fits over the camera operator. It resists movement, at least up and down. They're really expensive.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:14:13 PM
from $200-2,000.  Google action
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l28/shyloaf_17/steadicam_efp_large.jpg)
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:15:05 PM
MovNat - Training at Wildfitness                                   
I now have some fresh MN training ideas  ;).

Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4nmu6mZd4s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmovnat%2Ecom%2F&feature=player_embedded)


Inspiring.

UnNatural Method (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYrO1jpfrpQ)

1:02 of yesterday's training. I was going to do every element of MN [walk, run, jump, climb, lift, throw, attack] on the garbage pile [and swim after]. After my first fridge flip, I concentrated more on lifting, pushing, etc.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:17:57 PM
Yea! haha. That was awesome G.

Unnatural method. lol   It would be so funny to see a cops expression if one were to just pull up.  To see his expression after you tell him that you're just working out... lol   

That was some uncoventional training, way to work with the surroundings.  Thinking in the future - traceur walking down the city street picking up empty abandoned appliances to fill his MN urges. lol  Nice change up G

Nice, awesome stuff. Like the way you basically helped the community while training. Awesome stuff.

Thanks, ya?
I figured it was the best way I could inspire you guys.
I'm glad the cops didn't come. I might have scared them - and got shot  Shocked
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:19:16 PM
I'm trying to pick up the tidbits that Erwan drops on his MovNat.com site... not that he drops a lot ;D

World's Most Annoyingly Fit Man (http://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/index.php/natural-fitness-wild-workouts-with-the-world%E2%80%99s-fittest-man/) article ;D

I've copied out some of his comments... I would say I'm still in the exploratory stages of understanding Methode Naturelle. I take what I can, and play with it how I can. Erwan has expanded MN to TWELVE basic exercises:

Walk, run, jump, climb, BALANCE, QUAD MOVEMENT, lift, CARRY, throw, CATCH, natural combat and swim. They're natural expansions... I think Hebert had already added balance and QM by WW2.

#
Erwan Le Corre
May 28th, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Teenagers can have a beautiful energy and thirst of life, but also totally lack of objectiveness. There is often some sort of “hero complex” in the need to film and exhibit oneself for the sake of it. I guess it is probably part of a personal journey that helps to get to know oneself better, just that it doesn’t help when it contributes in spreading misconceptions that can tend to dilute a meaningful and well-defined concept and turn it to a vague, meaningless one.

It can be convenient to train indoors for instance if weather conditions are really bad. You have to understand that training in nature is not a golden rule, it is training natural movement that is. If for any practical reason it is more convenient to train inside, it makes sense to do so, can be because of lack of suitable outdoors location in big cities, because of extreme cold, pouring rain etc…Indoors places also offer the advantage of full scalability, means safety especially in beginners, though it’s also possible to have this kind of purpose-build area outdoors. It can greatly help your progress than it is possible to adapt the context to fit your current skills. In nature, you don’t have that. It’s a take it or leave it deal all the time, you have to adapt to nature, not the only way round. That’s the ultimate stage.

There is no reason for me to de-popularize Hebert that is so much my inspiration, but only to explain where he comes from, beyond the romantic legend. Also, I refrained myself from turning this essay into an encyclopedia so I kept it simple, essential.
By the way, we have no real clue what were Hebert’s personal skills, he was rather skinny but muscular, which is actually the natural athlete body type, but for some reasons I have never found images of him performing movement and real account of his physical skills, just that he was pretty in shape. It leaves us with the conclusion that what truly matters about him is to remember what was his ability to inspire people and his qualities as a physical education leader more than him as an athlete. Same goes for Amoros.
I would say the same about myself, I have displayed some of my movement to inspire others, and to also show that “the video matches the audio” or in others words that I walk the talk, but in the end, what matters is my ability to spread the concept of natural movement training and education on a solid and lasting basis.
Because my intent is to “produce” new generations of natural athletes that will also inspire others, and generations of MovNat coaches that will provide a solid natural movement education to people.
This is what matters rather than my personal level of fitness.
Like I said, we can be admiring the past, be impressed by what others can do, but we also need to inspire, impress and admire ourselves!
Honoring the legacy is good, but it’s even better to make it alive again, means make it evolve and move forward. That’s the direction of life itself: always forward.

Sean, thanks. My true drive, my entire purpose behind MovNat is education in natural movement and then sharing the True Nature philosophy, to be strong, healthy, happy and free.
It all will unfold step by step. Rome wasn’t made in day.
In the next post, I will underline and explain why MovNat is not just Methode Naturelle with a new name.

Per, I will deliver as promised, and what I promised is basic training tips somewhere in June, likely to be by the end of June. Basic because it’s important to be realistic, nothing replaces direct coaching. So I will rather focus all my energies in teaching others how to teach others. i.e certifying professional trainers in MovNat, rather than let people think they can learn everything in just a few clicks. It has to be real. The tips will help you get started indeed, but think that the more you will use them, the more thirst for knowledge and experience it will generate ;-).
#

Erwan Le Corre
May 28th, 2009 at 10:30 PM

Matt, indeed, I have started writing a book about MovNat, the philosophy and practice of natural movement. It obviously takes time to write a book and at the moment, I lack of it because of all the practical side of the development of MovNat, but for sure it is on its way.
Both sides of the coin truly matter, a meaningful practice stems from a meaningful philosophy and no there is no meaningful philosophy without actual application and experience through practice.
As for possible plagiarists, the key here is to be always a step ahead so that it is clear who leads from front and who’s only trying to jump on the bandwagon.
I am not talking here about the rather few people that have been out there already, and sometimes for years, trying to push a similar orientation in the fitness milieu and which approach and efforts I obviously highly respect. Everybody involved in the shift to the natural that is coming in health and fitness, that they are there as early initiators or leaders genuinely driven by a sense of mission or just followers, will positively contribute in any case. You can be a follower, and become a leader. You see, the only thing that doesn’t change is that everything always changes, according to the ancient wisdom :). Nothing’s static in this world.
So it doesn’t matter what the “bad guys” do, in fact they will participate in the overall revolution of natural movement, that they do it with noble intentions or not.

Per, it is amazing how many people have got in touch with me the past 3 months and from a lot of different countries, even tiny ones!
I understand your point totally though and you understand mine, some tips will help you get started and think “great!” and you will make progress as well as understand “hey, there is only so much I can learn on my own”. I am well aware there is only so much I can convey online and that’s why I prefer to warn people that I cannot deliver something that is unrealistic.
There is already half thousands people that have filled out the MovNat pro form so far, mostly fitness professionals, so you can also be sure than in not a too long time there will be an army of MovNat coaches to spread the practice on a solid, professional basis and hopefully there will be one in your area :).

Thanks everyone for the positive feedback, which helps me to better understand your questions, concerns or expectations.
#

Erwan Le Corre
May 29th, 2009 at 2:44 PM

That’s an interesting point Damien, actually MovNat can be trained just anywhere and anytime and this is a big aspect of the philosophy and training method.
“The Workout The World Forgot” video was shot in the summer in Corsica, same about the barefoot running one, and same about most of the photos in the gallery (a few in Kenya where I recently worked), not in the green, dense Brazilian jungle. Corsica is not at all anything of tropical and fancy destination, nature there is gorgeous but tough, rugged, dry and you could find kind of similar areas in the USA that are amazingly beautiful natural locations, in about every state, and that are very accessible. You don’t need to go to a tropical island. You can train in the winter as I do to, with clothes on and shoes on, or in a city, a park, a yard, it is a very opportunistic and adaptable training.
You can check out 2 posts there at http://barefootted.com/ if you scroll down where there are photos of winter running in the surroundings of LA with my good friend Barefoot Ted.
As for “paradise”, my paradise is everywhere nature is, whatever the season and I have never heard that going to nature is only for wealthy people, which I am personally not at all ;-).
I hope it helps :).
#

Erwan Le Corre
June 4th, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Cloud, the ability to defend oneself ranges from the most primal to the most technical way. So you want to train both, from hyper simple close range moves to elaborated techniques that you need to learn and refine.
So basically, depending on the situation, you want to respond in the most primal manner first and as soon as possible go for more complex moves.
I believe that styles like Thai Boxing, elements of Kravmaga are good for the primal, stand up side, but I also believe that when it comes to ground game the Gracie jiu-jitsu has arguably the best combative program because it’s 100% on realistic street application.
Of course, MMA schools are excellent, I think it’s fantastic that the sport grows so much, men are fighters at heart and training hard betters us and gets us more balanced in life I think.
#
Erwan Le Corre
June 4th, 2009 at 5:12 PM

Hey Lane, the book will cover the whole philosophy of natural movement and will be a practical guide to get started.

Lane, please don’t take what follows personally because I know you’re a nice person (Lane is…a Zookeeper, yes people), but I will use the comment you made to express some of my thoughts.
Regarding unaffordable trips, many people have asked for training directly in Brazil and are impatient to be able to sign up so it means many people are willing to finance this, I don’t know if they are wealthy or not, I know some told me they just would save because they want this experience. Well, the Men’s Health article is all about my training program in Brazil and if I didn’t hold some of them there then people would keep on ask for them.
Many have also expressed their concern to not be able to travel that far and this is why I have announced seminars directly in the USA. Many have also told me that they could attend only if there is an event held in their own state. And many others have asked if there is a book or a DVD they could buy.
I deeply respect that some of us are financially challenged and it is actually currently my case, but what can I do? I am really not well-off myself at the moment, as I need to spend or save whatever to move further with MovNat as my ambition is to develop the concept and practice widely and essentially on a professional basis. I guess everyone needs to deal with their own agenda or means.

I am still in the process of applying for an O-1 visa to move to the US, it is a slower process that I thought and it just delays everything, since I cannot announce seminars if I don’t have enough guarantee that I will be able to work legally.
Remember, I am a French citizen, and despite the amazing support of so many Americans (through emails) it’s all about dealing with red tape.

As soon as I get that visa, I should be able soon to travel around the States to coach people where they are, with short clinics and for a decent price. I am about education. My goal is to spread my natural movement education program. It goes beyond fitness and beyond a so-called confidential business in tropical paradises for an elite of wealthy people, even though there will be punctual events of this type and even though I could just do that, it is not where my heart and vision is. I train anyone whoever they are and it can be anywhere, I don’t do it for free, but you don’t have to be a billionnaire.
Last Saturday, I trained a group of 10 people 7 hours non-stop in a London park and gave my best given…I had been sick like hell for two days with malaria. A very tough tropical disease.
But I had an engagement and some people came their way down from Scotland. I just told them I was not feeling so well today and then carried on.
I was rushed to hospital the day after and just got out from hospital today, completely weakened.
It’s not about the money.
#
Erwan Le Corre
June 4th, 2009 at 5:41 PM

Yosapayan, MovNat has not much to do with parkour. First off, MovNat is extremely comprehensive as it derives directly from Methode Naturelle, while parkour, also originated in Methode Naturelle, is deprived of any element of lifting, carrying, throwing, catching, fighting or swimming.
That’s a LOT missing when you think with a situational mindset and then understand the necessity of broad movement skills to be able to face broad situations. If you have this situational mindset that is truly realistic, a broad training is a no-brainer, but if you don’t have it you just keep on refining a few moves over and over, which is what most parkour guys do, which is what every sport specialist does. They are not many to complement their training with what parkour is lacking of.
Secondly, the MovNat program has several training types to obtain specific results while parkour training is fully undefined, it is up to everyone to figure out basically, and how do you learn? You watch youtube video and try to do the same, with its share of trial and error and injuries.
You need to be very young and have a lot of free time to go this way.

There are thousands of parkour videos on youtube, but in the end, who practices parkour? 95% teenagers and 90% males. I believe something is very wrong here. It tells you something about a crucial and key point: this practice is failing in reaching a truly broad audience because it is way too intimidating to people and because it is still stuck in its rebellious underground image that male teenagers love but that just scares everybody else away.
There are many local parkour communities around the world that do a truly fantastic job in helping beginners to train the right way and provide lots of guidance, but why is that? Because they have no official coaching system and no professional coaches or very few so far.
This is why all my energies will be as soon as possible fully focused on MovNat certification seminars, as I intend to entirely base the development of MovNat thanks to professional coaches, not amateurs.

As regarding Ross Enamait and Gymjones, absolutely excellent programs, I also recommend them, even though our approaches differ, but that’s what makes the world richer.
#
Aaron Brown
June 3rd, 2009 at 8:18 PM

Hiya!
I was introduced to MovNat via the MH magazine article and have been highly interested in it ever since. The article sparked my interest because during the summer, I typically don’t have access to a gym and so it sounded interesting. It is my hope that if I don’t go abroad to study in the fall, that I might save up enough to come to one of your seminars. Until then, I’m trying to get the hang of the workout listed in the article. It became a killer when I increased the distances. -_-

I also tried to improvise my own for a little variety. It mostly takes advantage of the elementary playground near my house. It went something like this yesterday:

*Jogged about a half mile
*Shimmied up a light pole (that garnered a few “wtf” stares… -_-)
*Jogged some more
*Leapt over the school fence back and forth 10 times
*Did 10 dips, followed by 10 upside down situps hanging from a horizontal bar, as well as lifting my legs up to wrap around the pole and back down 5 times
*Climbed on top of horizontal bar (by taking advantage of the vertical poles on the sides, I don’t have the upper body strength to hoist myself up a horizontal pole)
*tightrope walked pole
*jumped down from there twice
*used horizontal bar as monkey bars

…and that was the best I could do. I haven’t gotten it down yet, exactly, but it’s my hope to get it down better, and maybe eventually be able to pull myself up that hor. pole. I have no idea if I’m following the concepts of MovNat properly or not, and I hope I am. I like your idea of functional strength over just developing “show muscles” and the idea of developing a “smart body.” Keep up the good work and I hope one day to be able to train with you! ^_^
#

Erwan Le Corre
June 4th, 2009 at 5:45 PM

Aaron, no you’re not following MovNat training principles, you’re doing basically “a little of everything” in an exploratory manner which is all good stuff tough, and actually if for some reason the list of moves you’ve described was just what you could afford to do at a given time because of lack of space and time, then it could be called “MovNat” as the method always follow the principle which is to do what you can, where you are, with what you have (Roosevelt, US president).
You have at this stage to be exploratory and opportunist indeed, so keep up with these experiences.
#
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:21:00 PM
Steve started a MN thread at NEPK, so I invaded it.  x:D

Ahoy, hawaiipk! Prepare to be boarded!   ;D

I'm pretty sure that with a decent knowledge of how human musculature works, conventional (gym-based) workout knowledge, and a little experimentation, you could probably crack Erwan's secrets with little to no problem, especially if a bunch of people sit down and think about it for a while.

For example; any repeated movement will drill that movement into your muscle memory, and as long as there is resistance and it provides a challenge to your muscles, they will grow. You can develop slow-twitch muscles by doing slower exercises, and develop fast-twitch muscles by doing quicker, more explosive exercises.

With that said, you'd probably want a good ratio (1:1) of slow-twitch muscle exercises and fast-twitch muscle exercises. I'm assuming it's beneficial, in the case of MovNat, to utilize a full-body exercise in order to train all of your body's muscles to be used to being worn out and to drill them in moving together. But, you'd need plenty of rest (1 full day of recovery at least) for every 1 or 2 days you train, depending on intensity.

Also, keep moving. If you do enough resistance training and keep the intensity high, it counts as cardio as well as resistance training...increase your endurance, burn fat and build muscle all at once! Maintaining motion will develop great endurance, push your body past its strength limits, and give you an absolutely killer workout in 20 or 30 minutes.

You should think of movements that come naturally to people: running, pushing, crawling, jumping, throwing, catching, etc, and find ways to incorporate these into a multi-part exercise. For example, you could do an explosive sit-up, push a ball, rock, or another heavy object away from your chest as if you're going to throw it (but still hold onto it), drop the rock and flip onto your chest, bang out a pushup or a few, segue into a side plank, turn that into a bridge (if you have the flexibility), and then flop on your back again for another rep.

Or you could begin crawling with your chest relatively high off the ground and after 5 "steps", drop the height so you're closer to the ground, take another 5 "steps", drop so your belly is brushing the grass, take another 5 "steps", and then commando crawl for 5 steps, then repeat. If you're feeling adventurous, you could all of a sudden rise and bust out a few burpees or rise by doing a jump squat, roll when you land, and then continue your crawling.

The rationale for this thinking is that in a survival situation, you're not going to be doing chest-flys or even just running in a straight line. You're probably going to need to run, crawl, jump, roll, climb, maintain balance and hold positions for half an hour or so without rest. Sure, you might even have to throw things, catch objects, or defend yourself. Just incorporate a ton of different motions into a non-stop workout and go from there. If you're training as a group and one person's trying to climb onto a bar suspended in the air, the rest of you could do a multi-stage workout while waiting for your turn.

So, keep moving, do multi-part exercises, and stick to movements that you'd be doing in a survival situation. That's my assumption.

EDIT: Gregg, I just saw your MovNat workout breakdown in another thread...pretty good! I'll be stealing some of that (with proper attribution of credit).
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:24:04 PM
http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2009/01/erwan-le-corre.html
An interview with Erwan.
--- --- --- ---

from http://www.cannovan.com/

I was fortunate enough to attend a MovNat Clinic in London last Saturday with Erwan Le Corre. It was a fantastic experience and I highly recommend that anybody who is interested in fitness to attend one of his courses if they have the opportunity.

Erwan was assisted by MovNat certified coach Colin Holding. There was a group of 10 of us and the clinic started at 9:30am and finished at approx 6:30pm. It was a long hot sunny day and Erwan crammed as much MovNat training as he could in the time available - however, by the end of it I was still inspired to learn more. The training took place at various areas of Hampstead Heath park, which considering we were in London was an ideal location for an introduction to MovNat.

For the first hour or so Erwan talked about MovNat – what it is, what natural movement is and talking about different types of training e.g. CrossFit, Yoga, specialising in sports, etc.

He then took us through a MovNat warm up consisting of: walking then running forwards, backwards & sideways. Moving onto walking in a crouched position, getting as low as possible. Moving on all 4’s forwards, backwards & sideways. Squatting & standing up, kneeling with attention to the flexibility of ankles & knees. Forward rolls, sideways rolls & backwards rolls then ending with some light sparring. I’d never done a warm up like it before – completely different to what you’re taught in a commercial gym. It wasn’t easy, but it was fun.

For the rest of the day Erwan demonstrated and had us practice some of the key movements in MovNat:

    * Walking
    * Running
    * Jumping
    * Balancing
    * Walking on all fours
    * Climbing
    * Lifting
    * Carrying
    * Throwing
    * Catching
    * Defending


Unfortunately, there wasn’t enough time to learn about the twelfth MovNat key movement – Swimming - but I was pretty tired by then, after trying out all the other movements, so probably best that we left swimming for another day.....

The training ended with Erwan explaining how to combine different MovNat key movements into a combination that you could use for a workout. Each of us created our own combo and went through a number of circuits. Mine consisted of walking along some fallen tree branches (balance), jumping between logs, vaulting a fallen tree, running to another tree and climbing one of its branches - repeating this approx 5 times. It was quite tough, especially climbing the tree branch (similar to doing a muscle up).

Erwan then created another combination for the whole group - a workout consisting of running, vaulting a fallen tree, moving on all fours & crawling under some fallen branches, jumping between small logs, running, then climbing along a rope between two trees, then running back to the start – repeated as many times as possible in 10 minutes. By this time I was exhausted, but it was a great example of how you can use the environment around you for a really good workout.

The Frenchman Erwan speaks perfect English and is an excellent coach. He had recently returned from Tanzania in Africa and had been ill for a few days before the MovNat clinic – he said he wasn’t sure what was wrong with him – some tropical bug perhaps?? But he had fasted for a couple of days and was determined to turn up for the clinic.

It was only a few days later that I heard Erwan had actually been very ill after the clinic – he ended up in hospital the next day & was treated for malaria. He was admitted into hospital for tropical diseases for several days. Last I heard he has been let out, which is good news – hopefully he will make a full recovery.

He had mentioned to the group that he was not feeling 100%, and with hindsight it was remarkable that he was able to complete a full days coaching – talking & demonstrating for hours. A testament to his high levels of fitness.

This one day MovNat course has inspired me to learn more. Hopefully I will be able to attend a MovNat seminar later this year or early in 2010. There was only so much that Erwan could teach in one day, and only so much information that I was able to absorb in one day, so a week long seminar would be great - I can’t wait....
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:25:03 PM
MovNat training: He has 2 levels - "Awakening", for people who aren't in shape, and "Expansion". It's interesting to see what he considers the requirements. $1290 for 5 days of living in a tent? You've got to be kidding. And this isn't even Cert... and MovNat Cert level 1... A MovNat level 1 certification will enable you to initiate any beginner to the practice of Natural Movement and help the “Zoo human” reconnect to their True Nature! I thought I was already doing that. For free.

‘Expansion’ Program: August 25th to the 29th OR September 8th to the 12th

You are physically active and consider yourself fit to very fit and want to expand your training regimen and make it more functional and real.

You are looking for a comprehensive training system designed to prepare you to real-world challenges and acquire practical and adaptive movement skills.

By attending this course, you will have the opportunity to optimize, broaden and equalize your natural movement skills and to experience the primal and natural feel of the MovNat practice.

Self-assessment for this course:
You can run 10 kilometers (a 10k) in under 50 minutes easily (an 8 minute mile pace)
You can easily perform 10 explosive pull-ups in a row
You can deadlift more than your own bodyweight
You can comfortably swim freestyle and backstroke
You have some martial art experience
You have some barefoot experience
You don’t have injuries to work around
You can hold your breath at least 1?30?
You don’t suffer from vertigo
You have no serious health issues
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:27:48 PM
Decided to do some catch up with the reading.

"Aaron Brown
June 3rd, 2009 at 8:18 PM

Hiya! --- EDITED OUT THE LONG AARON BROWN/ ERWAN LECORRE QUOTE


I am not sure why he says that is not following the training principles of the MovNat. It seems to me hes teaching MovNat karate style (yu have to stand like this, put your hand here etc)

 I understand he wants people to follow a main idea, but for what I understand MovNat is about, well, natural movement, natural human skills. Why is he trying to set that into an specified way of doing it?

Enough reading, going for a run with roxy!!!

Here's what I understand:

0: There's working out in ways that aren't functional. Sit-ups, bench press, flips...

1: There's moving naturally, exploring, trying things.

2: There's Methode Naturelle, Hebert's system. You move naturally, or you plan out what you're going to do. You try to include as many of the 8-10 elements, and train chaining these elements without any significant rest. There are 12 tests so you can see how you measure against yourself, what progress you are making, and have goals to shoot for. It's a focused version of #1 - "Be strong to be useful."

3: There's MovNattm which is Erwan's secret training method. It's an update and revision of #2. He added martial arts and love for nature, and took out Hebert's slogan and replaced it with "Explore your true nature"tm...

So now there are a couple problems. Erwan hasn't said what MovNattm is. He's said what it ISN'T: It isn't 0. It isn't 1. It isn't 2.

Here's why:
0 isn't functional. MovNat is based on 12 functional exercises.
1 is basically random and unstructured.
2 is focused on getting results, and is structured. However, it's 100 years old, and was written before oriental martial arts became popular. So some of it is out of date. Also, it seems that somebody "owns" MN, and doesn't want to update it, or let other people update it.

SO:
0+1 = HIPK video, because it has movements that aren't functional, and the training was basically unstructured, taking advantage of the surroundings, but not chaining or combining them in the most effective way [sprints combined with power moves].

1+2 = my training, because while I'm influenced by MN, I also adjust my workout by whatever I find. I PLAN to use all the elements, but I don't always chain them in the most effective ways, and I'll often skip the Defense, because it feels stupid doing it alone.

My other problem is with Erwan's philosophy. "Find your true nature."tm Me, me, me. It's selfish, pointless, and in the long run, counter-productive. If a group of people are trained by MN, they learn to look for ways to help each other. In MovNat, you're on your own.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:32:04 PM
I believe Erwan commented that Aaron's training wasn't MovNat because Aaron was doing reps of one exercise, and then moving on to another exercise altogether. From what I can see, Erwan stresses MovNat as a system where you'll do something like run for a while, jump over some obstacles along the way, shimmy up a tree, throw some rocks around and then do combative training for a few minutes, followed by lifting a heavy log and finally beginning to run again while carrying a heavy rock that you will discard a minute into the run.

Then repeat, or mix up the exercises. Maybe quadrupedal movement across a log next time, followed by a swim.

So, no real "reps;" just flowing through whatever's in your environment. Of course, training for functional movements such as muscle ups, balancing, quadrupedal movement, throwing and lifting rocks would help if you eventually progress to a true MN workout.

I thought self defense was part of the original NM.

Defense is one of the 8, 10, or 12 basics... ;D I don't do it much, because I don't like throwing shadow punches, and I train by myself 99% of the time. I may tie a sandbag to a tree one of these days. I've used banana trees as targets, but I feel sad when they "bleed".

Some of the basic karate kicks look like they're in the book - roundhouse, side, and front... but the hands look like all Euro boxing moves. The grappling looks mostly Euro, except some of the pics when they're in clothes looks like judo. I'm guessing karate and judo were "brand new" in 1912.

Steve... I feel like I answered this already, but maybe in the other thread? Yeah. Serious deja vu.

It's cause Aaron was just doing whatever he could with what was around. That's a good beginning, but as you start to train, you may need something slightly more structured... to work on weak points and overcome plateaus.

You keep moving the whole time, but that doesn't mean you can't loop around and repeat. For example, in the article, one of the exercises was passing rocks from one guy to the next. The guys were in a circle. Erwan added rocks until there were 5 rocks for 7 or 8 guys. They did that for a while. Then they moved on to running/ tossing driftwood.

I see at least 3 different methods of training:
1. Free exploration, which you do at all times.
2. Mini obstacles, where you combine 50m sprints with one of the other exercises, perhaps in 1 or 2 ways. You vary the intensity in order to give yourself more of a challenge, or to catch your breath. You cycle through the different "stations" non-stop, for at least 20 minutes.
3. Major obstacles. This is like his final test - he has a course of 5 [to 10] minutes, with specially designed and planned obstacles. Your goal is to flow through the course 4 [or 2] times in 20 minutes.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 09, 2009, 07:36:02 PM
Sigh... "MovNat basic training tips: it will be delayed as I am extremely busy at the moment (1-2 weeks) thanks for your understanding and patience."

http://steelicarus.vox.com/library/post/movnat-london-seminar---review.html?_c=feed-atom

Another blog about his London seminar. Not so much new info.

Erwan just hooked up with Frank Forencich "Exuberant Animal". What... has he been reading our forums? Like he says, they're a good fit. Erwan's a bit more at the extreme end, and Frank is more playful and social.

Although... Erwan DID joke about selling MovNattm leopard print loincloths, and looking for a supplier of wooden clubs.

Today Erwan posted about the philosophy of MovNat. I still think he's secretly reading our forums ;D

I understand "Explore Your True Nature". I understand why he wants to get people moving. I feel better when I'm able to get outside and play.

I wish he had written about the basic training tips. It would have been more useful. Oh wait -- "be useful" -- that's Methode Naturelle, not MovNat. LOL ;D

Erwan, I'm just teasing, ok? I do REALLY want to read your basic training tips.

Where is the link to the philosophy he wrote?

http://movnat.com/archives/486

I love you  ;D
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 27, 2009, 02:55:47 PM
Just in case you missed it on the Indiana "Methode Naturelle v. Weights" thread (http://www.americanparkour.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,159/topic,18938.0/). Mostly so I don't have to go searching for it in 2 years ;D

As has been pointed out this is a false dichotomy. Methode Naturelle involves weights, specificially lifting, throwing, catching and carrying them, it patently ridiculous to consider a handsatnd push up more natural then lifting something heavy overhead which were our ancestors more likely to need to do?

Furthermore to the best of my knowledge George Heberts training involved designed objects like barbells as much as it did natural found objects like logs and rocks.

Before you start trying to argue for the superiority of Methode Naturelle you might want to research it a bit more.

Now in reality the specific way that Methode naturelle used weights is probably inferior to more modern methods of weight training notice I say weight training not body building, body building muscle isolation and Machines are completely useless athletically and not part of this debate. Weight training is the use of barbells dumbells and other similar training devices to produce progressive overload of the body to force physiological adaptions to increased strength, power, stamina etc.

Modern studies show you can not gain strength as effectively in fatigued state as when rested, the requirement for continous work in methode naturelle is contrary to the way our bodies work and the best methods for developing strength that have sense been developed.

Methode Naturelle was good system back then, and the basic insight of training in way derived from the way our bodies have been adapted by the natural world around us is as true now as it was then but MN is not the perfect system we should be trying to understand the principles of good physical practice in general and looking at what has made athletes succesfull in sports in general. A big part of that is progressive scaled weight trained with plate loaded barbells and dumbells using major natural compound movement patterns like the squat, deadlift and press.

Finally I have had the oppurtonity to train with Erwan when he was trying to ressurect Methode Naturelle, and when he was formulating his own approach and had many discussions with him as he made the transition. He is very clear if you have not trained with him directly you are not training his MovNat and he has trademarked the name for the very purpose that he can make that distinction. MovNat is his unless your qualified to train with his system you should not claim that is what you are doing.

My opinion is simple, squat, deadlift, and press using barbells for safety and scalability and rocks, logs, and training partners for the development of broad functional capacity, if you find weight training boring your doing it wrong.

  Hebert's "Practical Guide to Physical Education" [2nd ed] shows them lifting large metal "bricks" - probably the 40kg weights they used for testing. The pics also show old style dumbbells with the black iron spheres on each end, light and heavy bags, ladders, and people.

  The throwing pics show 7.25 kg shot put, large and small rocks, ropes, and discus.

Right. Lifting and throwing were in the early part of Hebert's workout, right after the warm-up. There were 3 major two-hand lifts: developpe [press], jete [jerk], and arrache [snatch]. For the heavy bag, they show a combination of deadlift, plus using leverage to get it up on the legs, and over the shoulder. So those lifts would fit right in at CrossFit.  ;D

Erwan said he'd be coming out with pointers on developing a MovNattm workout. However, he's also working on a book, and has his seminars this summer, which I can't afford to go to ;D

So until then... here are some training tips from his Twitter feed.

  Training tip: you don't always need to be in nature to move naturally. Do what you can, where you are, with what you have. Be opportunist! 3:15 PM May 25th from web
  Training tip: invest more attention in your inner sensations. It is not just what you do on the outside, it is how it feels in the inside. 7:06 AM May 25th from web
  Training tip: forget the classic muscle isolation and body parts approach. Go for natural movement patterns. Move the primal way. Explore. 2:53 AM May 24th from web
  Training tip: change your approach first. If you go on with a conventional approach, you will end up with the same conventional experience. 7:24 AM May 23rd from web
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 28, 2009, 03:19:23 PM
Again - from the other thread - sigh...

To build strength, or increase stamina, the best methods are those which take into account lessons learned from modern science.  High-intensity interval training, Tabata and barbell weight training (compound & Olympic lifts) are the best ways to increase the body's abilities.  This type of training is also very enjoyable to some people, including me.

Olympic lifts are Clean/Jerk and Snatch. [Used to also include Clean/Press but wiki says it was discontinued because it was difficult to judge proper form]. MN lifts are... press, jerk and snatch. No problem there.

Tabata [20 sec work, 10 sec rest [x8]]. MN = no significant rests... instead alternate with a derivative exercise - like walking on the 'points' of the feet. So you could lift for 20 sec, walk a 15 m loop, and repeat that [x8].

  A HIIT session consists of a warm up period of exercise, followed by six to ten repetitions of high intensity exercise, separated by medium intensity exercise, and ending with a period of cool down exercise.
  A MN session consists of a warm up period, exercise of increasing intensity, alternating with low or medium level exercise, and ending with a period of cool down exercise [walking] and breathing exercises.

[At least in theory] ;D

Thanks for reminding me of Tabatas and HIIT. I was doing interval training, but lately I've been doing some longer distance slower beach runs, because it feels good, and reduces my stress. I've noticed that my running speed and jumping heights and distances suffered last month. For August I'll try throwing in more of the short intervals.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 30, 2009, 03:03:32 PM
Again from the other thread. I wish they'd move it over here...

The Methode Naturelle principle of relative rest is great for certain types of training but was not based on any strong logic or deeply practical reason as far as I can tell, that just the way Hebert wanted it to be done. The best studies plus the experience of the best strength coaches through the years to show for maximal strength and power activity full recovery is neccesary and that means rest, and rest means rest like laying on your back rest. If want get moderately strong or have have a good conditioning effect and get your work out done fast, accesory drills, super setting, relative rest are all great, if you want true maximal strength and speed adaptions you need to rest fully.

BTW here is great article on tabatas http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/effects-of-moderate-intensity-endurance-and-high-intensity-intermittent-training-on-anaerobic-capacity-and-vo2-max.html (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/effects-of-moderate-intensity-endurance-and-high-intensity-intermittent-training-on-anaerobic-capacity-and-vo2-max.html)

There is no reason to think 20 and 10 is magic, there are lots of ways to play with intervals don't limit yourself to one interval ratio because its a big fad.

Rafe - that's a great article on Tabatas. [by Lyle McDonald]

Over a 6 week period: On stationary bike:

Control group: 10 minute warm-up + 60 minutes at 70% VO2 max x 5 days/ week. [350 min work/ week]
Tabata group: 10 minute warm-up + (20 sec at 170% !! + 10 sec rest)x8 x 4 days/week plus
                    10 minute warm-up + 30 minutes at 70% + 4 sets of Tabata. [98 min work/ week]

Results: Control group - 9.6% increase in VO2 max, basically no anaerobic improvement
            Tabata group - 11.6% increase in VO2 max, 28% increase in anaerobic, but most in the first 4 weeks.
            They were in worse shape than the control group the entire study = started at 92%, finished at 96%

"High-intensity interval training and the Tabata protocol specifically are one tool in the toolbox but anybody proclaiming that intervals can do everything that anyone ever needs to do is cracked. That’s on top of the fact that 99% of people who claim to be doing ‘Tabatas’ aren’t doing anything of the sort."

"Because 8 sets of 20″ hard/10″ easy is NOT the Tabata protocol and body-weight stuff or the other stuff that is often suggested simply cannot achieve the workload of 170% VO2 max that this study used.  It may be challenging and such but the Tabata protocol it ain’t."

Lyle was implying there was basically no difference between the 2 groups. I think this is a faulty conclusion, because he wanted to show there was no difference.

What are the REAL results?
Control group = 9.6% increase in VO2 max, no increase in anaerobic.
Tabata group = 11.6% increase in VO2 max, 28% increase in anaerobic IN 28% OF THE TIME!

If anything, this is a huge advertisement IN FAVOR of doing real [170%] Tabata training. To me, being stuck on a stationary bike in a gym for 6 weeks would be HELL!

I'm still learning about MN. I learn something new every day. For August, I'm going to try to run Tabata sprints. We'll see at the end of the month the improvement in my 100 m, 500 m, and 1500 m times.

Since I started training MN, my 100 went from 15 to 15.1 to 16.3 to 15.56  :'(. My 500 went from 1:57 to 1:35 to 1:49 to 1:43  :-\. My 1500 went from 6:35 to 5:56 to 6:05 to [testing today]. What doesn't show is that now I can run 6 miles at a good pace, and still sprint and kong a picnic table at the end.  ;D

I know 20/ 10 isn't a magic number. I've been doing more distance, or fast runs, but not sprints. The few "sprints" I did this month were usually 60m or so, with a 60m jog or some other fairly long recovery. They obviously didn't help much.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Ozzi on July 30, 2009, 07:14:06 PM
Ill suggest Going natural for a man board on its on section, yeah?
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 31, 2009, 12:31:39 AM
Right now it's flying barely under the radar. It's here, and some people know it. Pilou, Indiana thread, New England PK. Some other people. But nobody's giving me a hard time about it.

It's giving me just the time I need to play catch up, and bring the rest of HIpk along... if only a bit. Anybody who's interested in this kine stuffs is going to see it eventually.

BionicGrape is scanning the missing pages for me. I should be able to fill that in pretty soon. Rafe from WAPK and Beretta from SFPK are giving me some interesting ideas.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Ozzi on July 31, 2009, 02:27:13 AM
I need to catch up reading all this stuff my man.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on July 31, 2009, 04:28:44 PM
Yet another copy over...I know this isn't strictly MN any more. It's about interval training. I don't know if 170% or 250% of VO2 max is something you can easily figure, outside of a lab setting where you're hooked up to breath testing equipment.

@ t[Rainer] = I know. Rafe is from WA, Beretta's from CA, I'm from HI.
@ Cameron = thanks for the article. http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/can-you-get-fit-in-six-minutes-a-week/?hp The summary was the best part:

Those six minutes, if they’re to be effective, must hurt. “We describe it as an ‘all-out’ effort,” Gibala says. You’ll be straying “well out of your comfort zone.” That level of discomfort makes some activities better-suited to intense training than others. “We haven’t studied runners,” Gibala says. The pounding involved in repeated sprinting could lead to injuries, depending on a runner’s experience and stride mechanics. But cycling and swimming work well.

I looked up Gibala's abstract. http://jp.physoc.org/content/575/3/901.short
Each session consisted of either four to six repeats of 30 s ‘all out’ cycling at ∼250% VO2 peak with 4 min recovery (SIT)

Total workout time/ week = [4 x :30 sprint + 3 x 4:00 recovery]*3 days/week = 42 min/ week. That doesn't count warm-up or cool-down, either. [WU/CD times aren't listed in the abstract]. Also, this test was only run for TWO WEEKS. So can you get fit in 6 minutes a week? No. But it makes a great article headline.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on August 24, 2009, 11:47:35 AM
http://gregcarver.com/blog/2009/training-in-nature-with-movnats-erwan-lecorre/

Very positive review of Erwan's first MovNattm training session.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on September 24, 2009, 12:06:03 PM
(http://movnat.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/trycicleetsombrero.jpg)

Erwan's moving to Boulder CO. This is great news for Ryan Ford, and the guys from COPK.
It's good news for anyone on the mainland, actually. It's a LOT closer than Brazil!
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on September 30, 2009, 10:44:26 AM
New vid from Erwan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m61t3ObnSP0
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Ozzi on September 30, 2009, 03:05:26 PM
Watched it a few days ago, its being feature on fron page next week.

Great stuff./
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on October 02, 2009, 01:25:04 PM
One of the problems with forums is you lose good information over time. I found this thread (http://www.americanparkour.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,159/topic,455.0/) on APK while I was searching for Methode Naturelle stuff.

Quote
Hi all, this is Erwan, 34, from France, also known as Hebertiste. This is a little message for you guys :

We're living in a world that consumes more and more things, constantly modifying them in order to fit one's desires and fantasies, so that about anything become disposable or can be customized.
Guys probably some of you want to feel free to do the same with parkour because you've been growing up with such a loose sense of what is REAL ;
Knowing the price of everything and the VALUE of barely nothing...
You want to be free to take anything and make it yours, your own way, and call it what you like right, isn't it so cooool to do so ? Go on that way. It won't change the nature of parkour anyways. Sould I say "true" parkour ? Unnecessary.

Parkour was created with some very clear and basic intention : being able to save one's own life. Nothing else.

Keep this in mind whenever you go out to do parkour. Use your imagination and think of an emergency situation, or dangerous one, because of a fire, a flood, a chase or else. If you can clear obstacles and that it means in such situation (or similar) you could save your life, job is done. If in addition to this it is graceful and "light", perfect. If you think tricks, flashy moves, flips etc...will help to save your lives, which I seriously doubt though...very seriously..., go for it guys, go for it...

But figure for a while you're in such an emergency situation, then you will know what is the true spirit of parkour.Its ACTUAL purpose.

I repeat :
Parkour was created with some very clear and basic intention : being able to save one's own life. Nothing else.

If you have something else in mind when doing parkour, forget about parkour, you're obviously doing something else. You've just got the wrong purpose, and whatever your moves look like, whatever they are, the true spirit is definetely not inspiring your mind. You kids are just playing.

I repeat again :
Parkour was created with some very clear and basic intention : being able to save one's own life. Nothing else.

Go train.

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Mark Toorock on January 16, 2006, 05:03:26 AM
Erwan has such a way with words!!

Thanks for sharing that Andi, it's very "On-target" and to the point.
 

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Skipper on January 16, 2006, 05:25:44 AM
Very nice, thanks for posting that andi, and thanks for writing it Hebertiste!

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Matthew Lee Willis on January 16, 2006, 07:31:50 AM
Good way of explaining it again...

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Q Manimal on January 16, 2006, 07:47:28 AM
ive always trained relatively with that mindset, but it didnt really hit me til the other day sitting in school. if there was a school shooting, and i was almost anywhere in the school i could get outside without using the doors. if there was an actual fire, i could get out the window and get down. if im in a park and someone tries to mug me, i can almost definately get away. it was a parkour epiphany. the ability to roll to reduce damage alone could save my life. ive never jumped off a three story building, but if i ever had to, i think id be alot better off than the average person.

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Ryan Ford on January 16, 2006, 10:38:31 AM
Quote
I repeat again :
Parkour was created with some very clear and basic intention : being able to save one's own life. Nothing else.

and what about someone else's life? what about an emergency situation that isnt neccesarily life threatening? i think these should be included....

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Mark Toorock on January 16, 2006, 10:41:43 AM
Good Point demon, quotes from David Belle say that "Parkour is to be used to help others" and certianly soldiers aren't in a situation to save their own lives, they're usually fighting for the cause of their nation, and definitely fight to help each other.

Although of course it doesn't change the sentiment behind Erwan's point.

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Erwan on January 16, 2006, 11:56:27 AM
Obviously YES Demon. I just kept my post (initially posted on UF) right to the point, since anyways how can you save other's lives if you cannot save your own in the first place ?

Parkour is a specialization of the Methode naturelle, which motto is "Etre fort pour être utile" which means " Be strong to be useful ". David's dad, Raymond, was probably the best rescuer of all when still in duty. All pro firefighters in France are still trained by the Methode naturelle. Raymond greatly inspired his son to always go beyond his own limits and find solutions to escape (dangerous situation) and reach (safety place). If David hadn't first hardly and constantly trained that way, then himself inspired his little friends, then made a team, got in the medias etc...this VERY website and all parkour related websites, businesses, videos, teams, traceurs and all would never have existed. This is the roots of your inspiration,  training or even quest. It is all about inspiration, and spreading the word. But please guys don't forget the original spirit, the true essence, the real purpose : get stronger, faster, complete, so you are useful to yourself and others. If in addition to this you have lots of fun, its even better ;-)
Keep up with your training and everything that helps to help others, let them aware that it is important to be ready for any situation, and that it will greatly enhance their health and quality of life.

So naturally, practising Parkour might allow you to maybe save someone else's life one day. At least save your own. This is the real purpose. Anything else is "customizing" or ignorance. Good luck.

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: gearsighted on January 16, 2006, 01:00:53 PM
Absolutely excellent post Erwan, as usual. I have been perusing some word documents of your original conversations with Artful on UF a while ago, and your overall understanding of both Methode Naturelle and Parkour are inspiring, especially in your ability to simplify the underlying ideal.

Thanks for posting up, and welcome to the site!

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: andi k on January 16, 2006, 02:26:59 PM
Quote
I have been perusing some word documents of your original conversations with Artful on UF

i dunno what persiuthingy means but if you still have those documents why not upload/post them ? id like to see that stuff

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: The Manilla Gorilla on January 16, 2006, 02:28:16 PM
I think he means persuing, Which means he is trying to get them

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Mark Toorock on January 16, 2006, 02:43:29 PM
I would guess he means perusing, just as he wrote, which means "browsing through at a liesurely pace" ...

I think with Erwan's permission he'd hapiply post them here, those were GREAT conversations.

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Erwan on January 16, 2006, 02:51:21 PM
Agreed M2.

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: andi k on January 16, 2006, 02:51:22 PM
m2 i have an article for the site,  shall i email you it ?

edit: oops, i pressed quote, not IM. ah well..

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Mark Toorock on January 16, 2006, 03:34:26 PM
Either way Andi, please do, we'd love to have it! :)

And Thanks Erwan, we'll get some of those posted in our Articles section!

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: gearsighted on January 16, 2006, 04:39:40 PM
Yes, I meant Perusing (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perusing). I'm not sure if there is any background beyond this (I don't remember any, other than the other posts by Artful Dodger,) but here is the text of the word doc that Asa sent me the other day to help out with some research I'm doing on Methode Naturelle:

Don Jean Haberey (http://www.va-parkour.com/media/DonJeanHaberey.rtf)

Many thanks to whistolpip for the help and in-depth discussion afterwards!

If you haven't gotten to it by tomorrow, I'll post it as an article in the morning.


Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: andi k on January 16, 2006, 06:45:02 PM
DONT DOWNLOAD !! VIRUS IN THE FILE !!


just kidding lol,  thanks gear  l

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: andi k on January 16, 2006, 06:48:49 PM
Quote
and there's absolutely no doubt that he inspired the quite younger kids that later on grew up developing their own style and techniques in the suburbs of Paris that lately came to the world as "le Parkour".

actually, from what ive heard, this is not up to date. erwan ?

Title: Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
Post by: Erwan on January 17, 2006, 01:23:53 AM
Indeed Andi, David told me he had never heard of him.

"I'll be cristal clear, I'm not claiming that Jean Don Habrey created first the Parkour. David Belle and his friends did.
But after all, Parkour is just a word, right ? Where does it actually begin and when ? Did doctor Georges Hebert initiated the parkour ? Yes and no right ?
However, Habrey is undoubtedly a pioneer since he was, as far as I know, the first guy to create a whole philosophy and technique of moving in the urban environment. When he started climbing onto bridges and jump from roofs to roof, back in the early 80's in Paris, means more than 20 years ago and Lisses teens were then...10 or so ! And he's now...60 years old."

I said it and I confirm again now : David Belle created Parkour (even though the word itself was created later on).
"Did doctor Georges Hebert initiated the parkour ?" Hébert and his Methode Naturelle book simply greatly inspired David, as well as his (then) living example of father.
Is Parkour just a word ? Yes, it is only a word, and any other could have been chosen. BUT eventually Parkour was chosen and it describes most of all an intent. A purpose. Getting out of that dangerous situation, train for it often so you can, if it ever shows up. Get able to help yourself or others in many types of situations.

Haberey had a different way of training, much closer to the Methode naturelle (in fact really similar), less spectacular somehow (no big jumps, since using no shoes), but more complete (including barefoot running, swimming, fighting, resisting cold or lack of food and sleep etc...).
But well, reading back part of  those previous posts of mine, I believe everything is explained.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on October 29, 2009, 02:35:46 PM
http://www.wildfitness.com/

They were one of the first groups Erwan trained [for MovNat cert?]. They seem to concentrate on running, boxing, and kettlebells [per their web site]. They push either a primate diet [eggs, fruits, nuts, berries, some vegetables] or hunter-gatherer diet [add fish and meat]. They offer holidays in Greece and Kenya, have independent coaches in the London area.

I've seen them on MovNat.com and ExuberantAnimal.com ... I'll keep watching them - see if they have enough cool stuff to warrant their own thread.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on October 30, 2009, 12:42:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30CUT_ONx6Q

testamonials:) i dunno why they only do kettlebells, boxing and running? apart from that they seem pretty deadly:)
i still prefer MovNat by a mile though:)

their youtube channel:) http://www.youtube.com/user/Wildfitnessmovies
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on October 30, 2009, 01:26:46 PM
They do more than KB, box and run. That's just the core of their training. They also play Exuberant Animal games [Frank Forencich], stretch, swim, climb, go for boat rides, and sit around the fire playing guitar. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI9YPbJ6uHY&feature=related shows Erwan training in San Diego with the women of "Kettlebell Kamp". It's still photos with music, and the pace is WAY slow. Still - here's what it looks like they did:

Jump onto fixed stone spheres. Climb trees. Move around pillars. Walk/jog from flat ground over benches, picnic tables, back down. QM on a low wall. Jump from rocks to benches around edge of park. Drag partner - with your arms under their pits. Climb up stairs hunched over. Sideways climbs through railings. Lean abs over rail and balance. "Crab walk" down stairs. Stretching.

This is probably an "Exploration" type training.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on October 31, 2009, 10:50:47 AM
A couple hikes gone bad on Big Island this week. So have fun but be a little careful...

17-year-old Shea Walling of Honokaa died after he fell 80 to 90 feet down Mamaewa Gulch in South Kohala, Big Island.
He slipped while attempting to climb out of the gulch. Fire rescue personnel found Walling at the bottom of a dried up 120-foot waterfall. He was taken to Kona Hospital where he was pronounced dead 5 hours later.

Police said a 16-year-old male companion also fell and suffered cracked ribs and scrapes. He was listed in serious condition. A 19-year-old man who also was hiking with the group was not injured, the fire department said.

--- --- ---

A 43-year-old Norwegian woman who had been reported missing while hiking the Mauna Loa summit crater Wednesday was found in good health Thursday afternoon.

Responding to a 10:02 p.m. report of a missing hiker on Mauna Loa, firefighters with the Kaumana, Central and Waiakea fire stations concluded the woman became separated from her husband after he sat down to rest and she continued to hike the volcano's summit.

Her husband attempted to locate her after she failed to return, but became disoriented and hiked down to the Mauna Loa Observatory to call for help.

Fire rescue personnel weren't able to locate her Wednesday and continued their search Thursday morning with the help of Chopper 1 and a private helicopter, said Waiakea Fire Station Capt. Keith Laeha.

The woman, who Laeha described as a "seasoned hiker," apparently spent the night at the summit after she found an area sheltered from the wind. After sunrise Thursday she hiked down to the 7,000-foot elevation where she was located around 1:30 p.m.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Ozzi on October 31, 2009, 12:28:54 PM
Sorry to hear about the dead kid.

On the other hand, about the missing woman.  I think she was trying to get rid of her husband  ;D
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on October 31, 2009, 12:55:53 PM
Yeah - sounds like the hikers were trying to climb the falls, and fell. The reports don't say if it was loose rock, or if they were trying to do 5.10 moves without safety gear, but 2 of them fell.

Summit hikers - maybe he was having problems with the elevation. Disoriented, tired. Or maybe it was after sunset and he wanted to head back, and she wanted to reach the summit then head back. He's just lucky he made it to the observatory, and didn't fall off some cliff. At 10 pm, the sun would have been down for 3 hours or so... lows there have been 3c, so 36f [cold] with 5-15 mph winds.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on November 13, 2009, 11:59:19 AM
Picked this up from Barefoot Ted's blog while I was looking for something else. [from 2007]

    Ted

    I've just watched your video "ala méthode naturelle"(MN).
    It's good to see that ! However I might give you tips, if you don't mind, regarding the way you move across obstacles, which could be much improved.
    I do have a concern though because of the video, and I'm going to explain it to you and hope you understand :
    I'm preparing a website entirely dedicated to MN as you probably know.
    My big concern is the spreading of videos labeled "MN" that don't explain anything about what is the method and therefore could spread the wrong perception about what MN truly is. M stands for METHOD.
    I want to avoid people randomly performing natural drills but in a totally aleatory way, which is only for people that have no or very few understanding of the training principles.
    I do enjoy people training naturally in the nature, and that's my goal to eventually trigger such a trend worldwide and to bring people back to nature and their own nature !
    But you see, I have a plan.
    I don't know if you've ever heard of parkour, but parkour is a discipline that started here in French (due to the influence of MN) with guys training passing obstacles. No acrobatics,only the utility. No competition, only the self-growth.
    And now, because of tons of people made videos labeled "parkour" inculding flips and tricks and flashy moves, now many people think it's a lot about style and impressive stunts.
    Now, some people are even pushing for competitions !!! All that stands against the original philosophy. And there's not much that can be done because the founder didn't take care of that right from the start.
    I'm not the founder of MN, but I am the one who's going to revive it worldwide.
    There is no "my" interpretation or "my" application of MN.
    There is a method, if you use it, it is indeed the "Natural METHOD", if you don't, it's natural training (which is good anyways !!!).
    It's just that if you want to talk about MN, you must know its conceptions and training principles. It's not just a rough concept, Hebert wrote many books and explained his whole method with much details.
    I hope you understand my concern, it's because of the internet, soon we could have tons of young guys filming so-called "MN videos" but they don't know anything about the training principles or philosophy attached !
    It would create an ALTERATION and a DILUTION of the image of MN and this is what I want to prevent.
    I'm really glad you were inspired by the MN and I hope to meet you and train with you one day.
    I'm about to release more info soon, also in English. I will even pass it to you by email before it's online if you want, for you to better understand.
    My plan is to eventually build MN training centers worldwide.
    I plan to go to Brazil by the end of the year for this reason with a first pilot-center.
    If you want to become a complete natural athlete, and that's my hope that more and more people take this direction, I'd be very happy to help you with your training.

    Cheers

    Erwan
--- --- --- ---
    Monday, April 30, 2007
Blogger Barefoot Ted said...

    Naturally, I need your advice and input in order to learn and apply
    the METHOD which I really know nothing about. I have no desire to
    dilute or misinform, so will be happy to be more careful with my
    wording. I respect your concern and desire to keep the METHOD pure
    and true to the original.

    What I do know is this: I enjoy going out into nature to play. I
    like to run and climb and dance and swim. I like to be fit and injury
    free. For me, this comes quite naturally and has all my life.

    BFT
--- --- --- ---
    Monday, April 30, 2007
Erwan said...

    Ted no worries I know there was nothing else but a good intention :-).
    Plus you have the good mindset, willing to feel free, to go back to nature but also your own nature (our original human nature), to find a balance with our modern lifestyle, to avoid injuries by moderate and incremental training while making sure to make actual progress in ALL natural and utility capacities. You want that to improve your own life in a constructive and also fun way that feels natural to you.
    You have a generous mind and wish to share that with others to possibly help them feel better too, also to experience that wonderful feeling of natural freedom too, so why not to become a MN coach one day.
    All Hebert's books are very old and haven't been updated since more than 60 years. There's several ones, all in French, in which he explains everything about his conceptions and training method.
    Since I'm certainly not going to translate them all, I made a synthesis.
    I indeed have the vision of reviving his work worldwide and make it accessible to a greater number of individuals.
    My big concern is with :
    young people (that practice parkour because they all know parkour comes from MN) filming themselves randomly training "MN" just like they film themselves doing "parkour" because it make them feel special and "cool", but the issue is that they'll portray it wrong, giving no explanation to what they show and using music to make it look like a movie or something. They upload their stuff on the Internet, soon many others do the same, and soon the perception of what MN is is altered, misunderstood, diluted.
    My second concern is that there's many people out there willing to use anything new just to make bucks. If they can, they will use MN the wrong way for their own commercial goals.
    That's why I'm preparing to be totally free to focus 100% on developing MN but also try to avoid as much as I can such excesses.
    My plan is to build a strong new foundation for the method, worldwide.
    A serious network of people that truly believe this planet needs humans to change their behavior or else everything will go to an end.
    It's not political, it's not religious, it's not ideological.
    It's only common sense.
    Not yet enough "common" though hahaha.
    I want to show it is possible to practice physical activity a natural way with great fun and without equipment, just wood structures.
    To not destroy natural places with heavy concrete structures for a sporty activity. To not support polluting industries with plastic gear or else. To train rivalry free. To train for a helpful to others purpose in mind. To train and loose weight or get fit not as a goal, but as a natural consequence of a utility training.
    I'm deep inside of me convinced such a paradigm will happen, and that it will happen worldwide, and that it is already happening.
    And quite convinced the development of MN will greatly support such a new trend.
    I have the vision of numerous people going back to the woods, the rivers, the hills and mountains, and revive their own true nature, and find this strength and freedom. For free.
    It's not possible to tell you here whatever is in my mind about it.
    Maybe I'm a dreamer, maybe I do believe in this "reverse-evolution".
    Time will tell.

    Train well buddy !

    Erwan
--- --- --- ---
    Monday, April 30, 2007
Blogger Barefoot Ted said...

    Howdy Erwan

    I hope to learn more about MN in the future and share what I learn to
    others. But how?

    I believe that you need to make more instructional videos. I am
    looking forward to learning more.

    BFT
--- --- --- ---
    Monday, April 30, 2007
Erwan said...

    Ted, the problem with videos is that people start to think they know enough, especially the young guys. They're fast making videos of themselves and write inaccurate things about both training and conceptions.
    That's why I'm going to go step by step.
    First to release a long article with lots of excerpts from Hebert's books to have his conceptions better understood.
    The in a second time the training principles.
    Then I'll start making videos.
    Then I will arrange certification seminaries for people that want to become trainers. But it takes time, MN is really complete and a serious matter, you can't learn it overnight, and especially not learn how to teach it from videos.
    I'd like to see it spread also in the US. As regarding your own training, maybe we could arrange something in a next future.
    But you see, my concern is to avoid people practice (natural drills) kind of randomly and claim "this is MN" as I explained before.

    If I may give you some advise, from what I see in your vid, you lack balance when running and jumping. You don't use your arms the right way. They seem to try to help readjust your balance all the time, when they should actually anticipate your moves and ensure you don't loose balance. They also should help you go faster or use less energy, but also jump further. They don't synchronize with the rest of your body.
    Your upper body looks stiff.
    I hope you understand my intention is only to help !
    You need to relax your arms and shoulders, and let your upper limbs work together with your lower ones. You need more plyometrics condition in your leg, because you seem to be a lot excentrics-concentrics, not "bouncing" see what I mean ?
    Balancing on a rail like you do is great, but it's not like balancing when in motion. You need to relax muuuuuuch more.
    I hope it helps my friend.


    Cheers

    Erwan
--- --- --- ---
    Monday, April 30, 2007
Blogger Barefoot Ted said...

    Yes, thank you very much for your words.

    Yes, I will be an avid reader/studier/learner of your upcoming articles.

    Also, I would like to post our recent emails in my blog comments if
    you don't mind. I want others to be aware of my naivety about MN
    along with my desire to learn more.

    Very much looking forward to learning and absorbing as much as I can
    about MN. I really to need to attend a seminar.

    BFT

    PS. One of the newest additions to my training, something that I am
    surprised that MN is without, and that is drumming, i.e., drum circles
    (see Wikipedia) and/or musical /chanting/singing and its benefits.
    Have you done any group drumming
--- --- --- ---
    Monday, April 30, 2007
Erwan said...

    Hi Ted, no problem posting something regarding your "MN".
    Actually yes, it could be called "MN" training but that's the kind of training for people that have only a very basic understanding of what MN is. When people that don't know what MN is, they say "hey, let's do some MN barefoot in the woods" and they won't understand what it is and spread misconceptions. My big concern like I said.
    MN is an educational method, attention to kids especially, to have them develop fully all of their natural and utility capacities, but also for grown-ups to maintain this development.
    It is a physical education, but also moral : to be strong to be useful, means to be able to help oneself, but also help others. Altruism is an important ethics of MN. It's not only the natural efforts or movements.
    You have read the little introduction on my website I guess.
    There's 10 kind of natural exercises/capacities.
    Drumming is great, just like dancing, BUT they're not utility capacities, more a cultural thing to entertain people. Your survival doesn't depend on drumming. However it does depend on your ability to walk, run, jump, climb, swim, lift, defend etc...
    so they're the priority capacities because they're the truly utility ones in order to develop and preserve oneself (as a living being).

    It's easy for you to run, and also to run barefoot.
    My advise is that you should see what kind of capacity is LESS developed in you, like do you swim good ? Can you hold your breath ?
    How's your climbing ? How're you defense skills ?
    Can you walk on all your four limbs efficiently ?
    What about your jumps, vaults, drops, leaps ? Do you have enough speed, distance, precision ?
    You'll SOON understand there's MANY priority and utility skills you need to get, and that drumming is only after your training just to relax and have fun :-).

    Tell me what areas you think you need to train most in order to have more homogeneous capacities.
    Yes, I forgot also, (mental) qualities of actions has to be trained as well. Will you know what it is with your ultra races, but some jumps especially require to be fast and brave. A different kind of courage. Think about it.

    Train well buddy ;-)

    Erwan
--- --- --- ---
    Tuesday, May 01, 2007
Blogger Barefoot Ted said...

    Haha Ted I've just noticed you've posted all of our correspondence on the matter. Hey remember English is only my second language, I know it can look very awkwardly written sometimes !
    Also it shows me you're a very sincere and respectful person.
    Have a great day.

    Erwan
--- --- --- ---
    Tuesday, May 01, 2007
Blogger Barefoot Ted said...

    Erwan, your English is very good. Easy to understand.

    BFT
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on November 14, 2009, 01:46:21 AM
to go back to nature but also your own nature (our original human nature), to find a balance with our modern lifestyle, to avoid injuries by moderate and incremental training while making sure to make actual progress in ALL natural and utility capacities. You want that to improve your own life in a constructive and also fun way that feels natural to you.

YA!:D MOVNAT ROCKS SOCKS!!!!!!!!

agghhhh i wish erwans book would come out soon:(
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on November 17, 2009, 12:46:42 PM
agghhhh i wish erwans book would come out soon:(

That's not going to happen until he has a solid number of people certified as Level 2 coaches. [Intermediate. At least]. Right now he doesn't even have many people certified as Level 1 [Beginner].

He'll start certifying Level 1 in 2010. I think you may get an inspirational book in 2011, but I wouldn't really expect a book on MovNattm Training Methods until 2012 at earliest. It's not that Erwan is a slow writer. History has shown that he's perfectly willing to write a LOT. His vision is to develop and certify coaches. That's not going to happen overnight. As he starts getting coaches certified at Level 1 this year, he's going to find that he needs to improve and refine his material. As they work with MovNattm for a year or so it's going to surface questions he hasn't had to explain before.

As he starts training Level 2 coaches, he'll have addressed enough of the Level 1 questions that he'll feel comfortable releasing a Level 1 book. It will probably be similar to his blog, mostly an inspirational book, with lots of pictures.

It's only as he starts training people to be Level 3 coaches [advanced] that he's going to work out enough of the Level 2 bugs to release a Level 2 book. I don't think this book will be widely released. Not at first, at least. May only be released to Level 2 and 3 coaches, and maybe some level 1 coaches.

So read through the "Practical Guide" and people who train with Erwan, but aren't Erwan. Try to think "From this reaction, from this description, what did he teach them? How did he teach it? How did MovNat change the way they teach or train?"

Best would be to train with him for an extended time... start saving your money up.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on November 18, 2009, 07:44:55 AM
you seem to know a lot about what hes going to do, he said on his twitter that it'll hopefully be out by next spring, he also said there'll be a part on conditioning your (bare) feet so i reckon it'll be more than just inspirational writings, after all it is going to be "the philosohy and practice of natural movement.

yea im thinking about going during next summer 2010 or sometime 2011, as thats the earliest i could go (if i had the money id get on a plane tommorow!) but ill still be under 18 then and i dunno what the deal is with that (like if hes allowed train people who arn't 18)
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on November 18, 2009, 01:43:40 PM
I don't know what he's going to do. All I can do is look at what he's done in the past, and make some guesses, based on the little I know of him. He progresses fast, but doesn't rush. He's concerned about getting things right. He wants to develop a coaching network, and doesn't want the idea of MovNattm to get watered down. He also doesn't give away information for free...

All that would imply that the first book will be mostly directed at people who want to get out of the Zoo, but aren't really sure how to do it. He will provide some practical tips. He doesn't want people to get hurt. BUT... he wants to channel people to his coaching network, seminars, and certifications. So I'm guessing he will give some basics, some practical tips, diet and recipe info, but mostly encouragement and inspiration.

He's getting press and publicity now. I'm sure he wants to take advantage of the buzz. Writing a book is time consuming, especially for someone concerned about getting things right. I'm looking forward to the book, but not holding my breath.

I hope you can train with him soon. It sounds like people really enjoy it.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Rafe on November 22, 2009, 02:23:08 PM
My advice is to stop worrying about when MovNat this or that will come out, there are many other quality sources of information out there on how to develop a training program. If your goal is full broad capacity across natural movements you have explore a bit more but Erwan is not the only source of information nor in my opinion the best on many of these subjects. By holding your breath waiting for his books, his website to release information etc you are falling into the trap of his marketing. The system maybe patented and he may keep it secret but just because he doesn't broadcast it doesn't mean it contains any super crazy amazing secrets.

We all get so attached to names you want to be MovNat practioner to do that you have to read the book and go to the seminar and pay lots of money. But what is that name really worth. I am not saying don't listen to what he has to say or that his seminars or books aren't worth the money just don't get trapped into the idea of being disciple of his way. Its like martial arts people get obsessed with one coach one system but systems are never reality there just one way to see things Gracie Jujitsu maybe great but you can still learn from sambo, Muay thai maybe amazing but shotokan and Kyukushin are worth some time too.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on November 23, 2009, 01:03:20 AM
I steal from anyone I can, including your blog, Rafe :D I really enjoyed your stories of running around WA. Thanks.

I'm not waiting for Erwan. I don't agree with some of his philosophy. He -IS- quite a few steps ahead of me on this stuff, tho.

Silly comparison, maybe - Zumba with "Beto". It's a patented system, and there aren't any crazy amazing secrets - it's basic Latin dance steps with a little belly dancing thrown in. Still, it's fun to watch [and try when nobody's looking] ;D "Beto and the girls are good enough dancers that they make it look fun and easy. Erwan makes natural movement look... well... hard and exhausting ;D
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on November 26, 2009, 11:13:03 AM
Since I'm already looking for ways to improve my jumps, climbing, running... might as well try to steal from the "experts" in those fields. No sense reinventing the wheel...
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on November 29, 2009, 02:12:09 AM
Erwan is not the only source of information nor in my opinion the best on many of these subjects. By holding your breath waiting for his books, his website to release information etc you are falling into the trap of his marketing. The system maybe patented and he may keep it secret but just because he doesn't broadcast it doesn't mean it contains any super crazy amazing secrets.

could you suggest some places i should look for info? specifically relating to natural stuff
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on November 29, 2009, 02:40:36 AM
Look at each of the utility exercises. For example, look at the experts on Olympic lifting, etc for the lifting stuff. That's what most of Hebert's lifts are, anyways. The press, snatch, deadlift, etc have changed a little in the past 100 years, but they're fundamentally the same.

Also look at industrial sites, where they have to do a lot of lifting heavy or awkward items. They should have plenty about proper use of the legs, back, use of leverage, etc to lift, carry and throw things.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on November 30, 2009, 07:48:29 AM
Look at each of the utility exercises. For example, look at the experts on Olympic lifting, etc for the lifting stuff. That's what most of Hebert's lifts are, anyways. The press, snatch, deadlift, etc have changed a little in the past 100 years, but they're fundamentally the same.

Also look at industrial sites, where they have to do a lot of lifting heavy or awkward items. They should have plenty about proper use of the legs, back, use of leverage, etc to lift, carry and throw things.

yea thats what i figured:) thanks:) not many experts in quad-ing tho lol:)
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on November 30, 2009, 10:20:49 AM
Ah, but Pilou has read Hebert's book on Quadrupedie. I will make a QM thread, and post.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 01, 2009, 01:28:46 PM
btw how much time do you think you should put into each of the capacities???:S

maybe:

walk + run      =  23%   
quad      =  4%
climb      = 15% 
jump      =  8%           
lift         = 7%
throw     = 7%
carry      = 7%
catch     = 7%
balance  =  7%
swim      =  7%
defend   =  7%

er...i have no idea really

what you guys think?:)
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Ozzi on December 01, 2009, 04:38:51 PM
Hmm, that is a good question, I think we should all strive to attain 100% capability on each skills if you ask me. So I figure every time you train you should od most if not all of them.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on December 02, 2009, 08:49:28 AM
 I think the amount of time you would put into each of the twelve movements is up to your goals and your enviroment.  If you live in a tropical enviro. then it may be more applicable to swim, balance and climb, while if you live in joshua tree it may be more applicable to run, and climb, And only swim enough to be practical, 

 After you MASTER your terrain, move on to other bits of the world. eventually you will be able to master and adapt to all ecosystems,
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 02, 2009, 10:45:36 AM
yea good point but im really interested in training naturaly more than training situationaly, for situational training i think the method you suggest would be perfect but even if some of us live in land locked areas we still ahve bodies which are also suited to swimming (among other things)

great pic btw:)
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on December 02, 2009, 06:05:03 PM
I dont mean to sound like im saying DONT do the stuff  Not in your area.. Because over time you should become efficient in all the 12 movements.  But obviously if you live in kansas where you have lakes and pool. your not going Breath hold dive as well or as deep as someone from hawaii.   Living in hawaii im not going to climb as well as someone training natural  in the 'gunks.
  play your strengths
 If it came to the point where my life depended on climbing up a rock wall or fighting through 10'ft surf I would take the surf
  IM ranting a little so im going to get back on track

   let be break down how I would hypothetically train. this is assuming you live in an area like me. where Water rules and there is a decent amount oh steep and wooded terrain .  I say hypothetically because I dont train, I do whatever is "fun" and available for that day.


         Percentage of that skill trained/ week or month.....                                  efficiency **
          walk/ run  10-15%  ***                                                                          100% 
           quad      = 20 %                                                                                   80%
           climb      = 2*%                                                                                   20%
         jump      = 10%                                                                                       80%         
         lift         = 3*%                                                                                       100%
         throw     = 3%                                                                                        20%
          carry      = 13%                                                                                       100%                                                                                 
          catch     = 5%                                                                                          60%
          balance  =  20%                                                                                      100%                                                                                 
        swim      =  30-45%                                                                                    100%
       defend   = 10 %                                                                                           60%
         

 * some movements are basic to train and shouldn't take up much time.  climbing, some pull ups and campus board may be a rope takes 15-30min a week. and lifting even less.
 * Efficiency in my mind is based on current sport  benchmarks. An avid climbers average about v9-5.13's, swimming distance a mile or free-diving 3,2,5 (3 min breath hold, 20m dive, and 50m distance. NO FINS)
*** Walk/running should be done daily as your transportation.. because thats what it is. Forget about cars, buses, trains... we where meant to travel far on our own feet use them


 Ones  a movement has reached a particular efficiency then Taper down that skill to once a week to maintain. Then start focusing on another set of movements..

                                                                                       
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 02, 2009, 07:01:14 PM
Ok. That was a short break. Sorry. Your discussion is just too cool, and I don't want to have you going on for a month without me.

You gotta do what you can with what you've got. I like to have fun, but some times, I like to train hard, too. Both the surf and the rock wall sound like fun to me. 4-6' faces I'm comfortable in. 10' backs [20' faces] no, sorry Derek. I'm going to have to pass on those.

Figure out what your abilities and limitations are. Hebert and Erwan seem to focus on weaknesses - if you can't swim well enough to help yourself [or someone else] in an emergency, you need to work on swimming.

Hebert's whole system was based on training large groups of kids/ marines. So his first goal was to get them to "0" level in all his tests. When you know that everyone in your platoon can:

high jump .8m, running high jump 1m, long jump 2m, running long jump 3m,
run 100m in 16 sec, 500m in 1:40 and 1500m in 6:00, rope climb 5m without using legs,
throw 7.25kg 5m, lift 40 kg overhead, swim 100m in 3:00, and stay underwater for 10 sec, 

that gives you a certain amount of confidence in them.

More later.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 03, 2009, 08:02:49 AM
high jump .8m, running high jump 1m, long jump 2m, running long jump 3m,
run 100m in 16 sec, 500m in 1:40 and 1500m in 6:00, rope climb 5m without using legs,
throw 7.25kg 5m, lift 40 kg overhead, swim 100m in 3:00, and stay underwater for 10 sec, 

my new set of goals...

does he consider qm more of an exercise for climbing and therefore doesn't put it in?
and what about balance and defence?

id say i could do the running, climbing and swimming, maybe the jumping and probably not the lifting and throwing

EDIT: anyone wanna suggest for carrying and catching?

walk 20m carrying 30kg?
catch 4kg throw from 5m????

this forum is awesome!:D
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 03, 2009, 08:31:13 AM
totally off topic but look at this

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cairn.info%2Frevue-science-et-motricite-2006-3-p-83.htm
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 03, 2009, 10:32:10 AM
Good goals. I'm still working on a couple of them - esp my runs and rope climb. If you think you can already reach "0" level, then try for +1, +2, +3... to be considered "athletic", you had to be at +5 in all 12 tests.

In the 2nd edition of "Practical Guide" QM and balance were both basic climbing exercises. So they weren't tested.

Defense... I'm not sure. The book seems to imply that if 2 people got the same score on the 12 tests, whoever won a fight was considered the stronger of the two? I'm not sure if this was only theoretical, or since they were already sparring they would pair up the people of equal scores.

Catch and carry are Erwan's extensions to MN. Catch would be hard to test, because you'd be relying on something external to do the throwing. Unless you can get something reliable and consistent, there would be too many variables. One possibility could be one of those tennis ball serving machines. Put in 50 balls, see how many you could catch.

Carry - let me think about this...
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 03, 2009, 10:40:05 AM
lol funnily enough i had the same idea with the tennis ball amchine except it was chucking rocks at people

im gonna try an get the 0 level score in everything first to be a movement generalist and all that, ill report back with my results

balance elementary for climbing?:S

i like the downplay of defence 'cuase i never really saw how defence was that natural, situational sure, but natural?

EDIT: the more i think about it the more i like it, 'cause although balance is really good is not really an essential utility (well unless your balance is woeful), and similarly with qm:)

EDIT EDIT: does anyone have the table which goes from -5 to +15 'cause im not at some of the 0 goals yet:(

btw +5 swim 100m is 2mins, todays world record is 47.5 secs! (well teh interents says so anyway)

man i gotta stop this and study...
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on December 03, 2009, 01:28:10 PM
carry, I would suggest 50-75%of body wieght  for 1 mile.

 military ruck march which is pretty much much carring wieght on your back (45-60lb) is 12miles in under three 3 hours.  Or 20 miles in under 10hrs

Gregg, while both (the wall and and waves) sounds fun,  The  Area you live in will dictate your natural  skill level, If the wall is a v8, No hold larger then a width of pencil slightly inverted..   Or 8-10' waves..   I would hope you would choose what your more skilled with.

NINJA:
     Balance is a HUGE part of natural movents and training, But like I mentioned earlier;  Personal enviroment plays a large part in individual needs. "balance is really good is not really an essential utility "  This may be the case for you and your enviroment.  But for someone who lives elswhere it may be an absolute neccesity to get to a-b. Case in point is   the Pacific North West.  Alot of times the ONLY way to cross rivers or gullys is to balance over fallen trees. With floods, cold, and white water it would be death to try to wade or swim through.



  FITNESS SCORING SYSTEM and Natural fitness.

 I dissagree with this concept

1)  This system was made for the French(?) military. Militarys are built around written standards,

2)  Humans are naturally fit, If you are able to excell in your invorement (and able to adapt to foriegn enviroment.). IE able to get to point a-b,  navigate over, under, through objects to find food, and  be able to save yourself  then  you are truely "fit"

  Checkpoints and a scoring system are good for motivation, But not a necessity.


Defence: I would say that this is a good skill to protect yourself others and your food. Is this a "fitness" skill probably not  but a very important natural skill.

 Forgoten movent or skill:

 I think orientation is missing or should be part of the twelve skill levels,
 Not knowing which way  to travel makes it very hard to save yourself.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 03, 2009, 01:33:21 PM
I think it's interesting to do the 12 tests every month. It was fun to see how the numbers climbed from +12.1 to +44.65, and then depressing to see it fall, fall, fall...

Defense not natural? You need to spend more time watching animals. Boxing and wrestling are constrained, controlled and contrived ways of defense... but that's the point. The goal's to be healthy and useful. If people cripple each other, they're no longer healthy or useful.

Defense wasn't downplayed. It's just not easy to test it individually, methodically, objectively. Too many subjective variables.

Rocks aren't so fun to catch. I "juggle" jagged ones all the time, but I'd hate to catch one of them coming at 80 mph.

Carry: If you wanted to score this, there are 3 variables: Weight, distance, and time. Score = kg * meters / sec.
  Maybe the Farmer's Walk? You have a heavy weight in each hand, and have to carry it on a there and back or slalom route as fast as possible. World's Strongest Man competition uses 2 160kg [353#] cement blocks with metal bar handles or 125 kg [276#] "suitcases". I don't think I could even deadlift 320 kg, let alone walk with it.
  20m is too short. 30kg may be too light. But with the formula, you can easily compare apples to oranges:

250 kg * 50m / 50 sec = 250 [newtons?] = WAAAAY too heavy for me.
30 kg * 20m / x sec = 250 --- solving for time --- x = 0.24 sec = 300 km/hr = 186 mph = I can't run that fast
x kg * 1000 m / 250 sec [4:10] = 250 --- solving for weight --- x = 62.5 kg [138#] = Maybe with some work...

The easiest thing would be to start with a heavy but do-able weight, for kg/2 seconds. Say (2 * 25 = 50) kg for 25 sec. When the stop alarm goes off, your score would be 2 * m. So if you got 50m, your score would be 100. This would work great on an American football field, where every yard is marked off. Super easy to tell how far you went.

Not quite so easy: Starting with fixed weight and distance. Say (2 * 25 = 50) kg for 50 m. Score would be 2500 / sec. So if you haul butt and finish in 15 sec, your score would be 167. If you can sprint, and finish in 10 sec, your score would be 250.

The problem here is that 10 sec is just so short. It's hard to time yourself 100% accurate even for 100m sprint. You start looking at fractions of seconds, and it gets messy. If you have someone else to time you, this would be ok, and the math isn't THAT sloppy. Still, if you can sprint 50m in 10 sec carrying 50kg, you're beast, and should try heavier weight.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 03, 2009, 02:00:25 PM
carry, I would suggest 50-75%of body wieght  for 1 mile.

?!?!?!?!

The  Area you live in will dictate your natural  skill level

i get what you mean, kinda like situational-naturalness, sounds really MovNat-ish, but really im more into just naturalness than situationality (i am into situatuionality too tho):)

  FITNESS SCORING SYSTEM and Natural fitness.

 I dissagree with this concept

1)  This system was made for the French(?) military. Militarys are built around written standards,

2)  Humans are naturally fit, If you are able to excell in your invorement (and able to adapt to foriegn enviroment.). IE able to get to point a-b,  navigate over, under, through objects to find food, and  be able to save yourself  then  you are truely "fit"

  Checkpoints and a scoring system are good for motivation, But not a necessity.


imo the checkpoints are good 'cause i can say "im ok at running and climbing, and im sorta ok and swimming and jumping, but i suck at lifting and throwing so i need to work on them the most"


Defence: I would say that this is a good skill to protect yourself others and your food. Is this a "fitness" skill probably not  but a very important natural skill.

certainly very important in the time we live in, but i dont see how its natural

 
 Not knowing which way  to travel makes it very hard to save yourself.

i think mn was just about movement although i think erwan had a post about this in the .Net thread, saying that lots of stuff like first aid, sign language etc are situational but not actually natural movement
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 03, 2009, 02:06:06 PM
I think it's interesting to do the 12 tests every month. It was fun to see how the numbers climbed from +12.1 to +44.65, and then depressing to see it fall, fall, fall...

Defense not natural? You need to spend more time watching animals. Boxing and wrestling are constrained, controlled and contrived ways of defense... but that's the point. The goal's to be healthy and useful. If people cripple each other, they're no longer healthy or useful.

you scored +44.65! thats amazing!!!!

"healthy and useful" i thought we wanted to do things naturaly:S
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 03, 2009, 03:04:23 PM
Derek posted while I was writing that novel ;D

50-70% body weight for 1000 to 1500m would be a good challenge. Same for the ruck marches. Personally, I would mix it up.

I'm not skilled at either a 5.8 no rope climb or 8-10' waves [16-20' faces]. If the wall is low enough, I will try to pop or wall run it. Else, I'll look for something with obvious and large holds. [Or a channel in case of the waves]

Balance is important enough that Hebert upgraded it from a climbing exercise to "utility" classification. Same with QM.

Fitness scoring system and Natural fitness. It's fine that you disagree with it. So what standards do you want to use for your environment? Oops. Now suddenly we have a system again. Systems are nice if you want to set and achieve goals. That's why weightlifting works. It's good for motivation, like you said.

1) This system was made for French marines and adapted to civilian use. The standard "0 level" was the military minimum goal, just like the SEALs have a minimum goal. [Note - for kids and teens, the minimum goal was less, depending on age].

2) Right. If you're naturally fit, you should be able to excel and adapt. There are some skills that will help you in most environments. That's what the 8-10-12 utility exercises are.

Defense: It was designed for military, before widespread use of motorized transport, machine guns and bio-chem warfare. Still, even modern military and police learn unarmed combat. For them, it's not just a nice skill to have. This was "safe" training. There's a reference at the end of the defense chapter for more extreme stuff.

Orientation: It's an important skill, but it's a knowledge skill, not so much a physical skill. I agree that it's important to learn how to reckon from nature, and how to read maps [and be able to tell when they're WRONG]

@ Ninja -- I see you posted while I was posting. Good. I like this. TWICE?? Oh junk. I'm glad we're not playing the HIpk post game any more.

carry... work up to carry a buddy. At one time my goal was "Save Akebono" the sumo wrestler. I figured if I could get him on a sheet and drag him 50m or so, that was good enough. I could pull about 520# of boxes across carpet and tile, but not the full weight.

I think he's saying, "If you have a lot of 5.8 climbs in your area, you'd better be able to climb a 5.8. If you plan on going north shore during big surf, you'd better be able to get out of it." I totally agree with that.

Points. I use em. Alternately, I can tell you my 100m, 500m, rope climb, etc... but it takes longer than saying I was +44.61 but now only +25.71. Bad diet, and ineffective training [plus I did the +44.61 over a week, and the +25.71 was doing all 12 tests pretty much right after each other. The page about doing all the tests in one day was missed in the original Google scan, so I didn't know until I got the missing pages from BionicGrape]

Defense is natural for an animal. A cat will defend with teeth and claws. Humans are more than animals, but we still scratch and hit and kick and bite and pull hair. And use tools. So that people don't get badly hurt practicing, you have to agree on some limits.

MN was just about movement. Stuff like first aid, and orienteering are critical skills to have. HOWEVER -- he did include basic lifesaving in the swim section. It's not really swimming, but with a lot of non swimmers in a water environment, it was a skill he wanted his people to have.

I think I'm caught up. I hope so.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 03, 2009, 03:46:08 PM
Sorry for the text walls. If I wrote that much every day I could churn out a 50,000 word novel in 2 months.

@ Ninja - Thanks for the abstract about Hebert's "Swimming". It was short, and it was sad... "Finally, the comparison between Hebert's proposals in 1913 and 1959, and the general concern for learning to swim at both periods lead to the conclusion that Hebert moved from innovation to obsolescence."
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on December 03, 2009, 08:01:30 PM
ninja,

 I don't think I understand what you mean by situational vs natural.

 Defense is natural because  when we where wild creatures. We had to defend our food against other tribes, and other animals.


 Gregg,
 My standard is to be efficient in My environment and eventually any environment. It may be a standard, but its hard to grade, and compare. Its also very open ended and will change from person to person..

 My fear that if everyone starts putting standards and grades to MN then its going change the core concept.  And thats getting out of the "zoo human" and evolving away from "homo sapien domesticus"


Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 04, 2009, 07:52:01 AM
i mean that something like dance is quite natural, but will you ever use it to escape or rescue someone?

and running through a concrete city is probably very situational 'cause alot of us live in cities, but not really that natural.

as regards the 12 tests if the 0 value for lifting is 40kg over your head the surely the carry 0 value should have a smaller weight (25kg?) carried over a distance (100m), i wouldn't really consider time a factor in this one, in the same way there is no time limit for the throwing or the lifting
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 04, 2009, 12:21:25 PM
off topic again but ive been looking for the 12 tests with the values from -5 to +15 but i cant find it or any of his books online:( have they been taken down or something?:(
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 04, 2009, 12:34:05 PM
@ Ninja [btw... What's your REAL first name? I feel silly calling you "Ninja"]

http://books.google.com/books?vid=HARVARD32044051103216&printsec=titlepage#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The running is natural. Only the situation [city] is "unnatural".
Dancing can be more or less natural. It would probably be considered secondary at best, like games, sport, and manual labor.

Carry [deadlift] is easier than lifting something overhead [clean and press]. You can start with lighter weight, but Hebert also had people carrying each other. There isn't a time limit for the throwing test, but there is for lifting. Pilou just chose not to translate it. From the test notes, it says there's a one second rest.

If you want to do WEIGHT * DISTANCE I'm not going to argue with you ;D The math is way easier.

@ Derek

The grades and standards were one of the main points of Methode Naturelle. The system it was replacing had only a subjective system. So it's not CHANGING the core concept. It merely defines it. MovNattm may or may not have an objective  rating system. Probably not yet. Erwan had objective requirements to attend his advanced class this summer... hard ones.

How will you ever know if you're efficient? ;D
That's like me saying "I'm a trillionaire. I have over 50 trillion dollars." [true, but it doesn't mean I'm rich! At today's exchange rate it's worth US $0.14]
(http://www.3833.com/files/images/miscellaneous/zimbabwe_50_TRILLION.jpg)
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 04, 2009, 12:53:15 PM
.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 04, 2009, 01:23:30 PM
Ok, Ninja...
http://books.google.com/books?vid=HARVARD32044051103216 should give you a "read this book" button. Press it, then scroll down to page 33. If you're still having trouble, let me know and I will try to post the charts.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 04, 2009, 01:53:19 PM
sorry not there:( maybe 'cause im in Europe?:( wont let me upload screenshot unfortunately:(
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 04, 2009, 02:36:48 PM
Harvard link also connects to Google. I'll post them later today.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: turtlekarma on December 04, 2009, 03:21:29 PM
@ Ninja [btw... What's your REAL first name? I feel silly calling you "Ninja"]

http://books.google.com/books?vid=HARVARD32044051103216&printsec=titlepage#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The running is natural. Only the situation [city] is "unnatural".
Dancing can be more or less natural. It would probably be considered secondary at best, like games, sport, and manual labor.

Carry [deadlift] is easier than lifting something overhead [clean and press]. You can start with lighter weight, but Hebert also had people carrying each other. There isn't a time limit for the throwing test, but there is for lifting. Pilou just chose not to translate it. From the test notes, it says there's a one second rest.

If you want to do WEIGHT * DISTANCE I'm not going to argue with you ;D The math is way easier.

@ Derek

The grades and standards were one of the main points of Methode Naturelle. The system it was replacing had only a subjective system. So it's not CHANGING the core concept. It merely defines it. MovNattm may or may not have an objective  rating system. Probably not yet. Erwan had objective requirements to attend his advanced class this summer... hard ones.

How will you ever know if you're efficient? ;D
That's like me saying "I'm a trillionaire. I have over 50 trillion dollars." [true, but it doesn't mean I'm rich! At today's exchange rate it's worth US $0.14]
(http://www.3833.com/files/images/miscellaneous/zimbabwe_50_TRILLION.jpg)


Gregg is rich, buy a plane and fly your ass down here so we can train lol.  hyper inflation...what is it now in Zimbabwe +1000% a day? 
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 04, 2009, 03:56:56 PM
$50 trillion ZDS [rev 3.0] is unfortunately before the latest currency change. They lopped the trillion off, and the new $50 ZDS [rev 4.0] is what I was basing my USD $0.14 on. This 2008 bill is no longer honored by the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe. The $100 trillion bill is a collectors item. Mine is basically very cool wallpaper.

Last November they had a 98% daily inflation rate. Basically, prices doubled every day.

The people mostly use the USD or S African Rand now... Fairly stable currencies.

But enough $ talk. Now back to the wonderful world of MN and MovNattm
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on December 04, 2009, 04:35:01 PM
well since this is a MOVNAT forum and not a "natural fitness"  im not going to argue about it too much. ..

I understand that has "hard" standards for his instructors and I would hope do all fitness instructor programs.

I understand why  MOVNAT, CrossFIT, P90X etc, all have standards..  because they are a registered fitness "program"


  I didnt think APK was affiliated with MOVNAT or Erwin, and assumed MOVNAT was interchangeable with natural fitness.


 By putting up the Trade Mark (TM) Any post I posted becomes irrelevant as I am not a qualified  MOVNAT instructor.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 04, 2009, 04:50:43 PM
No, Derek! This is a natural movement sub-forum.
It's not MovNattm approved, or even affiliated.

I'm so not knowing... when you were talking about v8, I thought you meant climbing 5.8... I didn't realize until later that bouldering has its own rating scale, and v0 is about the same as a 5.8...

btw, could you start up a thread in "Going Natural" about orienteering, and offer some basic info?
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 04, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
The full charts are now in the "Physical Education or Complete Training by the Natural Method" thread. That's the book they came from. It will be easier to find the charts there [among 5 posts] than in this thread.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on December 04, 2009, 07:49:21 PM
 
   I know there is little Information on this type Training. But Reading these post it would seem that Herberts and Ewrins are the guideline.  I SAY play, train, Learn (whatever you wana call it)  OUTSIDE  and your experience be a guideline.

  Gregg, you've posted a lot about what "they" suggest..  I would like to here more on what youve learned training outside

Orienteering:  Yah  Ill try to right up something in the next week
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: JulesFox on December 05, 2009, 04:36:43 AM
Hi, my name is Jules. Anyone on Oahu want to do Natural Method training on a regular basis? The beach training with Ozzi was a lot of fun (and a damn hard workout.) I would like to go train in some unexplored territory and/or explore the concepts in Heberts book (thank you for the translation, by the way.) I'm thinking like a class for people who want to do hard/crazy(safe) stuff outdoors ie. desert running in Ewa Beach/ Cliff diving and climbing at china walls and spitting caves portlock/ Climbing the ocean side of Diamond Head. Am I alone in wanting to do (and doing) these things? I am very inspired by Heberts book and also Le Corre's new take on it.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: turtlekarma on December 05, 2009, 01:32:55 PM
Hi, my name is Jules. Anyone on Oahu want to do Natural Method training on a regular basis? The beach training with Ozzi was a lot of fun (and a damn hard workout.) I would like to go train in some unexplored territory and/or explore the concepts in Heberts book (thank you for the translation, by the way.) I'm thinking like a class for people who want to do hard/crazy(safe) stuff outdoors ie. desert running in Ewa Beach/ Cliff diving and climbing at china walls and spitting caves portlock/ Climbing the ocean side of Diamond Head. Am I alone in wanting to do (and doing) these things? I am very inspired by Heberts book and also Le Corre's new take on it.

I'll start training with you once finals are over.  Do you want more of an off trail kind of training?  I can think of several that you might enjoy.  your ideas sound like fun...as long as we keep it generally safe (I chicken out when I have serious doubts), I'm down. 
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 06, 2009, 01:55:51 AM
Hey Jules... Sounds fun. Too bad I live on Maui. Oh well.

Derek: A few things I've learned over the years... mostly from mistakes :P

Two hours of barefoot training a week don't measure up to someone who's gone barefoot all their life.
Easiest way to progress is like karate hand conditioning: sand, small gravel, medium gravel, large.
Climbing sharp, wet rock barefoot is asking to get cut. Walking on cut feet is no fun.
If you want to do a long hike, and you don't have enough water, decide not to.

If you train by yourself and you screw up, you have to be able to get yourself out of whatever mess you get in. If it's a scrape, no big deal, but when you're in shock, it's hard even to walk straight.

Learning from other people's mistakes is the best way to learn.
Not learning from your own mistakes is the stupidest.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 07, 2009, 02:12:17 AM
i posted the 12 tests and their ratings on my local pk site, one of the dudes was wondering:

"for the lifting, this may sound stupid but what counts as 1 after the first one, do you have to go, ground to arms straight above head everytime? Or is that just the first time and then go from a standing position with arms locked downwards to upwards? If you can understand that post can you please clarify,"

we presumed you have to go back to the ground and do the whole lift again for each sucsessive one?

thanks:)
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 07, 2009, 03:50:30 AM
Pilou was bored by that section - Hebert was being super detailed, since this was the area he was testing. So Pilou didn't translate it. So I just took a look at it, and I wish I hadn't ;D

  First: It looks like Hebert's having people do the first part of the lift using bent back. This is stupid form for lifting, as you're using your back muscles for the lifting, and not your legs. It's a good way to hurt yourself. At least that's what I've always been taught. Look for a good video of clean and press or "developpe".
  Second: I haven't been doing those pauses. I've been going from ground to shoulders, mostly using leg strength, then pressing overhead.
  Third: It doesn't look like Hebert is having them bring the iron block all the way to the ground. Of course, I'm using a barbell, so my hands aren't going all the way down to the ground either. I'll generally barely touch the weights to the ground, and go back up on the next rep.

Note there are a couple possible mistakes - I was just going from the Google scan, and it doesn't always make sense. I had to make a couple guesses. It wasn't on important stuff...

512. Regarding the test called the "lift" of the stone (or pig iron) of 40 kg for the measurement of physical fitness and to establish the form of results recognition (Chapter IX 1st part),

The performance scale of this test was established for the key lifts performed under the following rules: Starting position: take the pig down, feet together or slightly separated; immediately stiffen legs keeping the pig below the knees.

The subject raises a pig iron fitted with iron handles. AfTecte This object as a rectangular block. The most suitable length to give it whatever weight, must be equal to the average width of shoulders, due to reach of 60 centimèters +/- 5 cm at most.

1. Raise the pig to shoulder height, chin visible above the pig, raising the trunk without folding the knees.

2. Mark a pause of a second at shoulder height.

3. Raise the pig vertically at the end of outstretched arms without bending your knees and keeping the upper body straight "upright". The pig must stay horizontal, both arms working symmetrically; the feet should not move.

4. Mark a pause of a second, the arms outstretched.

5. Lower the pig to shoulder height.

6. Mark a pause of a second at the shoulder. Lower the pig down below the knees, flexing the trunk without folding the knees.

In adults, I normally train them to lift with two hands weights of 15 to 30 kg at most. The exercise with heavy weight, over 40 kg, should rarely occur.

8. Mark a pause of a second, pig below the knee, the knee still stiff.

Begin a new "lift" as it has been said and go on, but never extend beyond the rest of a second during downtime.

Video: 1 rep clean and press of 502# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nJrYPVJ88M That's pretty much the form I use - just not so much weight - And I set it down gently, not drop it on the ground. ;D

I've seen other vids where they just do repeats from the chest, or repeats where they go from the groin to overhead. I'm stupid, maybe. That doesn't seem like the complete motion to me. I'm going to keep going from ground to shoulder, to overhead, to shoulder, to ground. I'll try the pauses. I have a feeling it makes it more difficult. You're not able to keep the momentum going.

Anyway, it's super late. Almost 2 am. I gotta work - so let me know how that all works for you guys.

Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 07, 2009, 08:25:29 AM
thanks you!:D ha its half 4pm over here:)
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Ozzi on December 10, 2009, 05:51:25 PM
Jules and Ryan, I am down guys!
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 14, 2009, 08:11:47 AM
http://www.fbh.be/

seems interesting, is this the mn federation Erwan was talking about a while ago, i tried to find it before but i dont speak french so that makes things hard:(
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 29, 2009, 04:20:45 PM
no-ones [osted here in a while so i just thought id say i got 1 min underwater and 100m swim in 2:35

the 2:35 is'nt great, but its a start:)

if you know post what you got please:D
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on December 29, 2009, 04:32:53 PM
 Ninja,  was this one min  swimming?  laying at the bottom of a pool?

  Some tips to hold your breath longer
 1) get your face wet. especially your eyelids and your ears.
 2) Your breathing should be similar to  " inhale for 4 sec, hold for 2 sec, exhale 10 sec, hold for 2, repeat.
            I prefer to do 1&2 together, face in the water with a snorkel. for around 3 min

 3) warm up with two breath holds.

 4 Go for max.  With the breathing and warming up you be able to hit 230- 3 no problem.. If you hold it long enough you will experiance contractions in your diaphram. this is normal and you can push further then this. Contractions are the start of the "hard" phase in a breathhold. Your breath hold can be pushed to a little over 33% -50 %longer after the start of the hard phase.

          ALWAYS PRACTICE WITH SOMEONE WATCHING OVER YOU [/size] seriously you would be suprised by how much people die every year doing breath holds in a pool without a spot.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 30, 2009, 12:59:31 AM
Thanks for the tips, Derek. I'm so congested... I'll try, see how it works for me.
Spotter is always a good idea. I've never done it, but then I don't stay down very long. After just finishing 10 of the other tests, I don't usually have the breath left. There is a lifeguard, tho, about 25 feet away.

The chart just said totally submerged underwater. I didn't read the book super-close... don't know if there are a bunch of picky rules that I overlooked. I don't think so. There were other tests for diving, etc, but I don't remember seeing any more rules. There -IS- a page in that section that didn't get scanned by Google...

My best 100m swim was 1:25, but my dives have only been 30-40 sec. Pathetic by Derek standards ;D
You can see my scores since April on my training log "Btay - tastes like parkour". Too tired to put up a link for it. Will be testing again before FRI. [Hope to be over this cold...]
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 30, 2009, 07:35:09 AM
i was holding myself underwater by gripping the edge of the pool:)

thanks dude i didnt know any of that stuff:) there is a life-guard but unfortunately i doubt theres any chance of me getting a spotter:(
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 30, 2009, 07:43:51 AM
jeez you got really good scores!:D

what did you do for the climbing? a rope in a tree? and the the throwing, a rock or a weight or summat?
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on December 30, 2009, 08:39:38 AM
A good forum for freediving breath hold Tips and training  is
deeper blue (http://"http://forums.deeperblue.com")

 A Life guard is trained how to spot people who need help on the surface. If your near the edge and blackout chances are the lifeguard will not spot you till  after your "terminal gasp"  meaning you probably wont be saved.

I freedive quite a bit by myself, But ive also been to certification classes and know the risk and how to minimize the risk as well as anyone..... Even still every time you enter the water without a spot (even just sitting on the edge of the pool) you are betting against your life.


 Freediving is interesting in it takes hardly any real fitness. Ive seen 50 yr old women who where well out of shape do over 5 min. 
   One reason for this might be the aquatic ape theory (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_theory"). Pretty much say humans evolved Bipedly and hairless becouse we where ment to live around the waters edge. Big brains becouse of lots 0f omegga 3 from fish. Hairless becouse its hydrodynaminc. Ease of water births. Mammilian dive reflex, oily skin, etc.

Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 30, 2009, 07:03:27 PM
Doing tests today. Couple good scores, despite this stinking cold. Couple not so good ones. I'll see tonight when I score it out.

Throwing is a 16# rock. I keep it hid off to the side, and have been using the same one since April. It's oblong, and not smooth, but it's the right weight, and one side fits my hands well.

Climbing is a rope at one of the schools - they've got this little course - looks like they run people through it two at a time? It's a bit short, but it's not like I'm climbing 12m no legs right now.

Thanks for the tips Derek. I'll read them tonight, and start practicing them for next month.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on December 30, 2009, 08:31:47 PM
Forgot to mention.
 You should breath up for your breath hold for twice your estimated time  ie 4 min for a 2 min hold. And once you resurfaces recover for the twice the time before you dive agian

is there enough interest for me to make an intructional thread? 
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on December 31, 2009, 01:19:54 AM
Yeah, put it under swimming, or develop it as its own cool thing. Thanks D!
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on December 31, 2009, 08:23:27 AM
totally please:D
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on February 09, 2010, 10:03:02 AM
from movnat.com

@Alejandro: to protect your skin against the sun, there are some sun screens that are entirely made of natural components and work perfectly.
But the best protection is the skin itself, and how it is healthily nourished thanks to proper diet, and of course to avoid exposure at certain hours, depending on the weather or your complexion.
To repel mosquitoes, there are also repellents that are made of essential oils, you can as well use ash as mosquitoes hate the smell. Now, you also get used to them at some point, so they bother you much less even though you still get bites.

@Tony, despite I am meeting 2 literary agents while I am in NYC, the book project is postponed as I have decided to go for DVDs first, that are a much more practical material than a book. The book anyway will cover mainly natural movement, I will keep for later the idea of a different book about my philosophy of “True Nature”, which then will cover many lifestyle patterns including nutrition, again in a way that is practical, providing simple ideas that can be easily applied to improve one’s life and make it more natural, healthier. Not sure about a cookbook though :D .

@Pieter thanks, well I wish that MovNat gets an increasing recognition for sure as I know how beneficial it can be to people, hence the importance of making the training accessible to many, hence the importance of instructional video material and certified trainers.
I am very aware that not everybody can afford to attend one of my events, but in the meantime it is these very events that are going to give me the means to work on developing other projects, so I hope people can understand that!

@Brad and Matthew: John did an awesome job to represent the Paleodiet and MovNat! (I encourage people to adopt the Paleodiet, at the same time I respect that people have ethical concerns and choose to not eat animals).

@Greg: the MovNat training shorts are awesome indeed, they have a MMA cut, they are super light and stretchable so you don’t feel them at all when you move. If you want to buy them you have to email contact@movnat.com.
We will officially sell them (normally) before the summer, along with the first DVD.


end quote

IS ANYONE ELSE REALLY FRICKEN EXCITED!!!!!!
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on March 24, 2010, 11:54:47 AM
"Army drops bayonets, busts abs in training revamp" article (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9EFS3B00&show_article=1) by SUSANNE M. SCHAFER Associated Press

FORT JACKSON, S.C. (AP) - New soldiers are grunting through the kind of stretches and twists found in "ab blaster" classes at suburban gyms as the Army revamps its basic training regimen for the first time in three decades.

Heeding the advice of Iraq and Afghanistan combat veterans, commanders are dropping five-mile runs and bayonet drills in favor of zigzag sprints and exercises that hone core muscles. Battlefield sergeants say that's the kind of fitness needed to dodge across alleys, walk patrol with heavy packs and body armor or haul a buddy out of a burning vehicle.

Trainers also want to toughen recruits who are often more familiar with Facebook than fistfights.

"Soldiers need to be able to move quickly under load, to be mobile under load, with your body armor, your weapons and your helmet, in a stressful situation," said Frank Palkoska, head of the Army's Fitness School at Fort Jackson, which has worked several years on overhauling the regime.

"We geared all of our calisthenics, all of our running movements, all of our warrior skills, so soldiers can become stronger, more powerful and more speed driven," Palkoska said. The exercises are part of the first major overhaul in Army basic fitness training since men and women began training together in 1980, he said.

The new plan is being expanded this month at the Army's four other basic training installations—Fort Leonard Wood, Mo., Fort Sill, Okla., Fort Benning, Ga., and Fort Knox, Ky.

Drill sergeants with experience in the current wars are credited with urging the Army to change training, in particular to build up core muscle strength. One of them is 1st Sgt. Michael Todd, a veteran of seven deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan.

On a recent training day Todd was spinning recruits around to give them the feel of rolling out of a tumbled Humvee. Then he tossed on the ground pugil sticks made of plastic pipe and foam, forcing trainees to crawl for their weapons before they pounded away on each other.

"They have to understand hand-to-hand combat, to use something other than their weapon, a piece of wood, a knife, anything they can pick up," Todd said.

The new training also uses "more calisthenics to build core body power, strength and agility," Palkoska said in an office bedecked with 60-year-old black and white photos of World War II-era mass exercise drills. Over the 10 weeks of basic, a strict schedule of exercises is done on a varied sequence of days so muscles rest, recover and strengthen.

Another aim is to toughen recruits from a more obese and sedentary generation, trainers said.

Many recruits didn't have physical education in elementary, middle or high school and therefore tend to lack bone and muscle strength. When they ditch diets replete with soda and fast food for healthier meals and physical training, they drop excess weight and build stronger muscles and denser bones, Palkoska said.

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling of the Army's Training and Doctrine Command, the three-star general in charge of revamping all aspects of initial training, said his overall goal is to drop outmoded drills and focus on what soldiers need today and in the future.

Bayonet drills had continued for decades, even though soldiers no longer carry the blades on their automatic rifles. Hertling ordered the drills dropped.

"We have to make the training relevant to the conditions on the modern battlefield," Hertling said during a visit to Fort Jackson in January.

The general said the current generation has computer skills and a knowledge base vital to a modern fighting force. He foresees soldiers using specially equipped cell phones to retrieve information on the battlefield to help repair a truck or carry out an emergency lifesaving medical technique.

But they need to learn how to fight.

"Most of these soldiers have never been in a fistfight or any kind of a physical confrontation. They are stunned when they get smacked in the face," said Capt. Scott Sewell, overseeing almost 190 trainees in their third week of training. "We are trying to get them to act, to think like warriors."

For hours, Sewell and his drill sergeants urge on helmeted trainees as they whale away at each other with pugil sticks, landing head and body blows until one falls flat on the ground. As a victor slams away at his flattened foe, a drill sergeant whistles the fight to a halt.

"This is the funnest day I've had since I've been here!" said 21-year-old Pvt. Brendon Rhyne, of Rutherford County, N.C., after being beaten to the ground. "It makes you physically tough. Builds you up on the insides mentally, too."

The Marine Corps is also applying war lessons to its physical training, adopting a new combat fitness test that replicates the rigor of combat. The test, which is required once a year, has Marines running sprints, lifting 30-pound ammunition cans over their heads for a couple of minutes and completing a 300-yard obstacle course that includes carrying a mock wounded Marine and throwing a mock grenade.

Capt. Kenny Fleming, a 10-year-Army veteran looking after a group of Fort Jackson trainees, said men and women learn exercises that prepare them to do something on the battlefield such as throw a grenade, or lunge and pick a buddy off the ground. Experience in Iraq has shown that women need the same skills because they come under fire, too, even if they are formally barred from combat roles.

"All their exercises are related to something they will do out in the field," Fleming said, pointing out "back bridge" exercises designed to hone abdominal muscles where soldiers lift hips and one leg off the ground and hold it steady.

"This will help their core muscles, which they could use when they stabilize their body for shooting their weapon, or any kind of lifting, pulling, or something like grabbing a buddy out of a tank hatch," Fleming said.

Fleming said those who had some sort of sports in high school can easily pick up on the training, while those who didn't have to be brought along. One hefty soldier in a recent company he trained dropped 45 pounds and learned to blast out 100 push-ups and 70 sit-ups, he said.

"We just have to take the soldier who's used to sitting on the couch playing video games and get them out there to do it," Fleming said.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on March 25, 2010, 08:43:03 PM
 

  I would rather not think of everything involving running and picking up things  movnat

 I can tell you the army ISNOT movnat, when wearing all the gear your body is so constricted. A soldier would be doing these thing in tight fitting heavy combat boots that  are crushing their feet, Not promoting propreception, balance, or arch strength. 
       Of course they do buddy carries, its war and people get shot. I doubt a soldier would throw anything, a buddy, a sandbag.
Climbing, The highest dropout rate for airborne school is due to not being able to complete the required 6 pull ups.  I've seen infantrymen from the 82nd go to special forces selection and not be able to climb a rope.
  Swimming, Soldiers receive NO mandatory swimming classes and 45% of army warriors cannon swim.


 
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on March 26, 2010, 01:15:05 PM
I put it here because Methode Naturelle was a military training program - especially at first.
It's interesting to me to compare and contrast MN and US military training.

Carry: Gear + any special equipment + buddies...
Throwing: They don't use grenades any more? >:D
Swimming: Hebert had this problem too - 75% of the guys from the interior and 25-30% of the guys from the coast couldn't tread water when he started with them.
 
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on March 29, 2010, 09:02:31 AM
 Did anyone see this article,

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE59D0BR20091014

MODERN MAN A WIMP

Many prehistoric Australian aboriginals could have outrun world 100 and 200 meters record holder Usain Bolt in modern conditions.

Some Tutsi men in Rwanda exceeded the current world high jump record of 2.45 meters during initiation ceremonies in which they had to jump at least their own height to progress to manhood.

Any Neanderthal woman could have beaten former bodybuilder and current California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in an arm wrestle.

These and other eye-catching claims are detailed in a book by Australian anthropologist Peter McAllister entitled "Manthropology" and provocatively sub-titled "The Science of the Inadequate Modern Male."

McAllister sets out his stall in the opening sentence of the prologue.

"If you're reading this then you -- or the male you have bought it for -- are the worst man in history.

"No ifs, no buts -- the worst man, period...As a class we are in fact the sorriest cohort of masculine Homo sapiens to ever walk the planet."

Delving into a wide range of source material McAllister finds evidence he believes proves that modern man is inferior to his predecessors in, among other fields, the basic Olympic athletics disciplines of running and jumping.

His conclusions about the speed of Australian aboriginals 20,000 years ago are based on a set of footprints, preserved in a fossilized claypan lake bed, of six men chasing prey.

FLEET-FOOTED ABORIGINALS

An analysis of the footsteps of one of the men, dubbed T8, shows he reached speeds of 37 kph on a soft, muddy lake edge. Bolt, by comparison, reached a top speed of 42 kph during his then world 100 meters record of 9.69 seconds at last year's Beijing Olympics.

In an interview in the English university town of Cambridge where he was temporarily resident, McAllister said that, with modern training, spiked shoes and rubberized tracks, aboriginal hunters might have reached speeds of 45 kph.

"We can assume they are running close to their maximum if they are chasing an animal," he said.

"But if they can do that speed of 37 kph on very soft ground I suspect there is a strong chance they would have outdone Usain Bolt if they had all the advantages that he does.

"We can tell that T8 is accelerating toward the end of his tracks."

McAllister said it was probable that any number of T8's contemporaries could have run as fast.

"We have to remember too how incredibly rare these fossilizations are," he said. "What are the odds that you would get the fastest runner in Australia at that particular time in that particular place in such a way that was going to be preserved?"

Turning to the high jump, McAllister said photographs taken by a German anthropologist showed young men jumping heights of up to 2.52 meters in the early years of last century.

STARK DECLINE

"It was an initiation ritual, everybody had to do it. They had to be able to jump their own height to progress to manhood," he said.

"It was something they did all the time and they lived very active lives from a very early age. They developed very phenomenal abilities in jumping. They were jumping from boyhood onwards to prove themselves."

McAllister said a Neanderthal woman had 10 percent more muscle bulk than modern European man. Trained to capacity she would have reached 90 percent of Schwarzenegger's bulk at his peak in the 1970s.

"But because of the quirk of her physiology, with a much shorter lower arm, she would slam him to the table without a problem," he said.

Manthropology abounds with other examples:

* Roman legions completed more than one-and-a-half marathons a day carrying more than half their body weight in equipment.

* Athens employed 30,000 rowers who could all exceed the achievements of modern oarsmen.

* Australian aboriginals threw a hardwood spear 110 meters or more (the current world javelin record is 98.48).

McAllister said it was difficult to equate the ancient spear with the modern javelin but added: "Given other evidence of Aboriginal man's superb athleticism you'd have to wonder whether they couldn't have taken out every modern javelin event they entered."

Why the decline?

"We are so inactive these days and have been since the industrial revolution really kicked into gear," McAllister replied. "These people were much more robust than we were.

"We don't see that because we convert to what things were like about 30 years ago. There's been such a stark improvement in times, technique has improved out of sight, times and heights have all improved vastly since then but if you go back further it's a different story.

"At the start of the industrial revolution there are statistics about how much harder people worked then.

"The human body is very plastic and it responds to stress. We have lost 40 percent of the shafts of our long bones because we have much less of a muscular load placed upon them these days.

"We are simply not exposed to the same loads or challenges that people were in the ancient past and even in the recent past so our bodies haven't developed. Even the level of training that we do, our elite athletes, doesn't come close to replicating that.

"We wouldn't want to go back to the brutality of those days but there are some things we would do well to profit from."

Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on March 29, 2010, 12:40:07 PM
(http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20091014&t=2&i=11944775&w=460&r=2009-10-14T142431Z_01_BTRE59D140Z00_RTROPTP_0_US-ATHLETICS-MANTHROPOLOGY-interview)

I read about the book last year on Mark Sisson's site. [Same Reuters article].
I thought it was funny. I thought there was an article against the claims, but I don't see it.
If Usain Bolt had to run down his lunch every day for 10 years, I wonder if he'd be faster, or slower?

The guys were doing 37 kph for how long? That's 10.6 meters/sec. Just because I can hit a speed in a short burst doesn't mean I can maintain it. Also... I'm guessing the lake shore was near ideal conditions. If it was slow footing, the guys would have slowed, rather than sped up [or they would have run someplace else.] Still, 1.06 m/s is BOOKING. I wonder how they came up with that number, and how much margin for error there is?

I could jump my height if I was only 4 feet tall :D
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: baki20xx on June 16, 2010, 12:40:37 PM
All of the talk about past man being way better than us has some merit to it, but we all have to realize that most of this is theory and educated guess work. I remain skeptical of anything I read that isn't backed by physically proven facts. I do think that present man would benefit from more outdoor activity, physically stressful actions and a more survivalist attitude. I even resent the time I spend online sometimes, even after I've just finished a 9 hour primarily physical work day, a 30 minute intense workout and a 2 hour martial arts or parkour session all while trying to eat only lean meats, fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds.

As for my theory... Do I think we are weaker and slower. NO. I think there has always been the elite, the average and the lazy. Since the beginning of man there has been the weak and the strong. It is still like that today and it will always be like that. Unless one of these "scientists" can show me the bone and muscle structure of a 20,000 year old man in his prime and prove a comparison to an elite man of today in his prime, I will remain skeptical.

I think many people look to the past to escape the present. They want to believe that the past was so much "better" when moe often than not, it wasn't. Also, remember that the root word in history is story. Much of what is written and known about the past is not fact. A lot of it is dramatized, glorified and exagerated. Rightfully so, too. Thousands of years from now when they dig us up and find books from our "history" I hope they look at us as super humans that were way more awesome than they are. A great legacy. hahaha.

Train hard and often.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on June 16, 2010, 01:51:25 PM
Thanks, Blake. I think a lot of history has been romanticized...

On the other hand, if you have to walk around from place to place to get food, etc, you're going to be better at walking than someone who hops into their SUV and drives to McD's. The guy who lifts lumber, etc all day should be better at lifting than a guy who doesn't.

Much of modern life seems to be about avoiding contact with the world except in brief, ultra-intense, usually controlled bursts. Nature is too lumpy, too prickly, too hot, too cold, too dirty... So we smooth out little areas, cover it with grass or concrete, and only venture into wild areas for a few days a year... maybe.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: baki20xx on June 18, 2010, 01:38:36 AM
Much of modern life seems to be about avoiding contact with the world except in brief, ultra-intense, usually controlled bursts. Nature is too lumpy, too prickly, too hot, too cold, too dirty... So we smooth out little areas, cover it with grass or concrete, and only venture into wild areas for a few days a year... maybe.

So true and so sad...

All we can do is break that trend and try to grab as many people to do it with us as we can.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Ozzi on June 18, 2010, 11:35:35 AM
On that note, swimming to china mans hat today ;)
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Esox on June 21, 2010, 09:55:01 AM
Hi, is this THE Forum in Internet, where most active discussion of Movnat/Methode naturelle -type of training is going on?

If so, I would like to hear your opinion or knowledge on how to measure progress in this kind of training? I know about Heberts 12 tests (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tSFNXC19COC-ZKMlC4S2Vsw&single=true&gid=0&output=html)
But how is progress measured in MovNat? Or are those 12 tests still valid way to measure today?

My own training is sort of mix of Movnat type workouts, some strength training and bouldering quite actively. In bouldering progressing is easy to see, but more difficult in "natural training".. ???
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on June 21, 2010, 11:08:53 AM
That's a cool version of the 12 tests. It's a little different than Hebert's: His rope climb was for distance [5m = 0 points] and the lifting [overhead press] was in metric [40kg 1 time = 0 points]

I don't know if this is THE forum, but I've tried to put as many MN/ MovNat resources here as I could find.

Measuring progress in MovNat? I'm not sure. That's Erwan LeCorre's copyrighted/ trademarked system, and he has been VERY tight with sharing any information. His site is mostly seminar listings. The closest I've seen is the requirements for the "Expansion" course:

You have some “barefooting” experience

You can run 10 kilometers (a 10k) in under 50 minutes easily (an 8 minute mile pace)

You can easily perform 10 explosive pull-ups in a row

You have some powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting experience and can at least deadlift and squat your own bodyweight and clean and jerk half your body weight

You can hold a well-aligned plank pose for at least a minute, you can do 20 successive walking lunges while maintaining your stability, and you can at least vertical jump up to your knee-level and long jump half your height from a static posture then stabilize your body easily.

You can comfortably swim freestyle and backstroke

You have some martial art or defense experience (i.e. boxing, wrestling)

You can hold your breath at least one minute and 30 seconds

You have no serious health issues that prevent you from performing optimally including injuries that you must work around

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on June 21, 2010, 03:10:26 PM
Fuerzas Comando competition in Dominican Rep...

Following the opening ceremony, the competitors will have a few hours to rest before the competition's first event, a physical fitness test. The physical evaluation consists of two timed events where participants have one minute to complete as many push ups and sit ups as they can. Competitors must also complete as many pull ups and dips as possible in an attempt to outlast their opponents. The test will end with a 1.5 mile run.

The competition continues over the next several days. The event will test each team on its weapons marksmanship, aquatic skills, and tactical capabilities. The exercise will conclude with an airborne operation, or "friendship jump," on June 23 and closing ceremony on June 24.

Fitness challenge is a BORE! Sigh... Commandos from 18 nations, and that's the best fitness challenge they can come up with?

Sniper contest sounds way better LINK (http://www.blackanthem.com/News/U_S_Military_19/Sniper-teams-shoot-to-win-stalking-event-during-Fuerzas-Comando-first-full-day-of-competition22320.shtml)

Short vid from last year LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIhRICsHk5E&feature=player_embedded) Esp check out the obstacle course and assault maze.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on June 21, 2010, 05:53:44 PM
Hi, is this THE Forum in Internet, where most active discussion of Movnat/Methode naturelle -type of training is going on?

If so, I would like to hear your opinion or knowledge on how to measure progress in this kind of training? I know about Heberts 12 tests (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tSFNXC19COC-ZKMlC4S2Vsw&single=true&gid=0&output=html)
But how is progress measured in MovNat? Or are those 12 tests still valid way to measure today?

My own training is sort of mix of Movnat type workouts, some strength training and bouldering quite actively. In bouldering progressing is easy to see, but more difficult in "natural training".. ???

  This is the most thorough natural fitness forum I have found.  But its not sponsored by MOV/NAT

   The Point of staying Fit through Natural fitness isn't about becoming a " level 7 or 12". 

   The only measure of your fitness should be Your Environment. 

     
 
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Esox on June 22, 2010, 01:15:51 AM
That's a cool version of the 12 tests. It's a little different than Hebert's: His rope climb was for distance [5m = 0 points] and the lifting [overhead press] was in metric [40kg 1 time = 0 points]

I don't know if this is THE forum, but I've tried to put as many MN/ MovNat resources here as I could find.

Measuring progress in MovNat? I'm not sure. That's Erwan LeCorre's copyrighted/ trademarked system, and he has been VERY tight with sharing any information. His site is mostly seminar listings. The closest I've seen is the requirements for the "Expansion" course:

You have some “barefooting” experience

You can run 10 kilometers (a 10k) in under 50 minutes easily (an 8 minute mile pace)

You can easily perform 10 explosive pull-ups in a row

You have some powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting experience and can at least deadlift and squat your own bodyweight and clean and jerk half your body weight

You can hold a well-aligned plank pose for at least a minute, you can do 20 successive walking lunges while maintaining your stability, and you can at least vertical jump up to your knee-level and long jump half your height from a static posture then stabilize your body easily.

You can comfortably swim freestyle and backstroke

You have some martial art or defense experience (i.e. boxing, wrestling)

You can hold your breath at least one minute and 30 seconds

You have no serious health issues that prevent you from performing optimally including injuries that you must work around

Hope that helps!

Thanks for those. Requirements for Expansion course seems quite hard... But maybe some of those could work as goals also.

12 tests that I linked are from site http://www.methodenaturelledisciple.com/ which seems to be gone now..
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Esox on June 22, 2010, 01:27:19 AM
  This is the most thorough natural fitness forum I have found.  But its not sponsored by MOV/NAT

   The Point of staying Fit through Natural fitness isn't about becoming a " level 7 or 12". 

   The only measure of your fitness should be Your Environment. 

     
 

Yes, I understand that levels are not the goal here. But when doing this kind of training, I think there should be some ways to see/prove that you are making progress. Of course environment where you are dictates what is required from you and your fitness. But "to be strong to be useful", I don't think it meant just one environment where one would excel. And as as the environment changes (forest/city/sea/rivers etc.), so will the required skills/fitness. Therefore I'm looking for some general enough test set to see if general fitness/skills are advancing or do I have to change my training to bring some qualities up to level with others.

Maybe the original 12 tests is not too bad for that, but I would like to hear your opinions on that (have any of you done the tests?) and what maybe would be good changes or upgrades to those.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on June 22, 2010, 01:53:17 PM
I've done the 12 tests monthly for over a year. I usually leave out the rope climb, since there's no climbing rope near me. I may try doing the rope pull ups from the spreadsheet you posted.

You don't NEED to say "I'm a level 12, level 24," etc. A good goal needs to have some measure, though. How fast is your 100m dash? 17 sec? Try for 15 next month. etc.

The 12 tests are decent enough. Hebert scattered other tests through his books - hiking, throwing at a target, diving, etc. Other tests that could be useful would be things like vertical jump... or Erwan's requirements for "Expansion"

Some things I've found... The 12 tests are supposed to be done in 1 go - that's rough. I mix up the order so I'm not doing all 4 jumps in a row, all 3 runs in a row. The high jumps are very time consuming - adjusting the marker, jumping, etc. The shot put is the average of both hands :P Also, don't do the running long jump barefoot into grass... and land on your toes.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Derek broussard on June 22, 2010, 09:00:29 PM
 
    I agree that its good to have goals for a work out.
 
    And I do think its fun to test yourself. I like to find random test in health magazines, I do the army pt test, ect.  But I NEVER base my work out on it. Once you start focusing you will start specializing in only those activities and your body will adapt to excel in those but by compromising in other areas.  These may not be HUGE compromises, like not being able to run marathons because you only climb every day. But it will put gaps into your physical abilities

     If you only focus your work out on these 12 test your missing out, I guarantee it.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: naturalninja on June 23, 2010, 05:11:56 AM
hmmm well what exactly is your goal in training Esox?

to be useful?

to be happy?

to be healthy?
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Esox on June 23, 2010, 07:45:15 AM
I've done the 12 tests monthly for over a year. I usually leave out the rope climb, since there's no climbing rope near me. I may try doing the rope pull ups from the spreadsheet you posted.

You don't NEED to say "I'm a level 12, level 24," etc. A good goal needs to have some measure, though. How fast is your 100m dash? 17 sec? Try for 15 next month. etc.

The 12 tests are decent enough. Hebert scattered other tests through his books - hiking, throwing at a target, diving, etc. Other tests that could be useful would be things like vertical jump... or Erwan's requirements for "Expansion"

Some things I've found... The 12 tests are supposed to be done in 1 go - that's rough. I mix up the order so I'm not doing all 4 jumps in a row, all 3 runs in a row. The high jumps are very time consuming - adjusting the marker, jumping, etc. The shot put is the average of both hands :P Also, don't do the running long jump barefoot into grass... and land on your toes.

Interesting stuff Gregg, maybe i just have to give the tests a go and see how I feel about them.
When you say that tests should be done in 1 go, is that one try per test? one high jump, one long jump etc? Or all tests during one day but giving multiple attempts to each?
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Esox on June 23, 2010, 07:50:42 AM
 
    I agree that its good to have goals for a work out.
 
    And I do think its fun to test yourself. I like to find random test in health magazines, I do the army pt test, ect.  But I NEVER base my work out on it. Once you start focusing you will start specializing in only those activities and your body will adapt to excel in those but by compromising in other areas.  These may not be HUGE compromises, like not being able to run marathons because you only climb every day. But it will put gaps into your physical abilities

     If you only focus your work out on these 12 test your missing out, I guarantee it.

I agree, training is not about the tests. Tests should indicate the general fitness level in some areas that should improve somewhat even though you are not specifically training for it. At least to a certain point, I think that running sprints may improve my 100 m time, liftin stones and logs improves my press etc. Still, enjoying the varied training is much more important.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Esox on June 23, 2010, 07:59:04 AM
hmmm well what exactly is your goal in training Esox?

to be useful?

to be happy?

to be healthy?

Difficult questions... I can reason any of those options and all of them are good. In case someone needs me, I want to be useful. I also want to be happy and healthy.. This kind of training (movnat, MN, etc.) would seem to be good for any of those goals? Actually I like to train like this and more or less I'm looking for rational reasoning, why I should do it and why and how it will do good for me. I can list many good subjective things how training makes me feel and how it effects me. But I would also like to see some objective results, something measurable. Otherwise I just might float in my comfort zone and pretend that I'm training hard and well when the reality might be different?
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on June 23, 2010, 01:02:14 PM
Hebert had adults do all the tests in one day. For kids, he allowed it to be broken up a bit.
High jump: I take 3 attempts to make each higher height. I do best of 3 for the 100m run, the shot put, and the long jumps.

I don't base my workouts on the tests. I tried to do that with the running long jumps one month. I found that it took a lot of the fun out of my workout.

I think the MN test is much more complete than Men's Health (http://www.menshealth.com/men/fitness/motivation/physical-fitness-test/article/2d8affd6ae078010VgnVCM100000cfe793cd).

You can float in your comfort zone in any program.

Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Esox on June 27, 2010, 11:04:45 PM
Ok, I did the tests.. 400 m and press in the beginning of the week, others yesterday. Except swimming, I may have learn to swim properly first..
But boy did I suck on almost all of those others too..

100 m 17 s
400 m 1:33
1500 m 7:04
jump for height (no runup) 76 cm
jump for height 96 cm
Long jump (no runup) 227 cm
Long jump 360 cm
pull ups 14
lifting 34,5 kg
shot put (8kg) 576 (r), 454 (l) = 515 cm

That adds up to -7 points without the swims.. Well it's a start I guess..
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on June 28, 2010, 02:06:19 PM
Are you under 18? The target 0 level is for adult males. It's is adjusted down for younger people.

73. For a subject of 16 to 18, normal performance should not be less than the symbol - 1 in each test;
For a subject of 14 to 16, they must not be less than the symbol - 2 in each test;
Finally for a subject of 12 to 14, minimal performance corresponds to the symbol -3 in each test,

They often didn't do the swimming test, or include it in the overall results. I think it's because so many of the trainees Hebert had couldn't swim at all when they first came in. I would still try the water tests, if you can... just to find out where you are.

Your tests use a 400m run, 1:20 = 0. Hebert used a 500m run, 1:40 = 0. Same pace, just a longer distance.

Good news is you aren't severely negative on anything. Work on general fitness, and focus on running fast.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Esox on June 28, 2010, 10:59:53 PM
I wish i was under 18... I'm 35.  ;D
Not much of a training background, except for last couple of years. Skinny and weak. But with ok finger strength and motivation to improve in other areas also.
So as you said, general fitness, running fast and good "funouts", that should do it.
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on June 29, 2010, 11:10:19 AM
Short fast runs + climb + jump + lift stuff + throw stuff + martial arts + swim + manual labor + sport/ games/ fun = MN.
I've been looking for ways to help people. "Be strong to be useful, first to yourself, then also to others."
Title: Re: MovNat/ Methode Naturelle TALK!!!
Post by: Gregg HIPK on June 30, 2010, 06:40:41 PM
My tests were down a bit from last month. +26.95 as opposed to +30.0
My weak points continue to be 500m, 1500m, running long jump and climbing. I run quite a bit, but it's either sprints [which I did ok on] or longer, slower distances.