American Parkour Forum

Parkour and Freerunning => Parkour And Freerunning => Topic started by: Pat Kerby on May 23, 2006, 05:41:09 PM

Title: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Pat Kerby on May 23, 2006, 05:41:09 PM
I don't agree with the opinion that flipping is not a part of Parkour.  I thought Parkour was all about "finding your own way" in movement.  Granted, when I try to do flips it's a hospital stay in the making, but when you see Skynative, or Bam from the UFF team do it it's poetry in motion.   
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: FreeStyleFox on May 23, 2006, 05:48:34 PM
Not getting into this here. thank you
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Olloth Kenson on May 23, 2006, 05:51:39 PM
Yeah. It's best you don't bring the subject up (Well... here it's not so bad since most of us are civilized about things) Simply because people take radicals to both sides and it causes unneeded conflict. As a personal opinion you can flip if you like, and call it what you like, and I won't care. I'd rather not argue about it because I'd rather not get depressed on a perfectly good (assumably PK worthy) day.

Expect this topic closed soon for the sole purpose of keeping the peace, however.

EDIT: Typo =P
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Ryan Ford on May 23, 2006, 05:54:25 PM
Please read the links in the top right part of the home APK page (What is parkour?, etc.). I think you need to put a little more research into what parkour is all about before you make bold statements like here. ;)
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Mark Toorock on May 23, 2006, 08:18:42 PM
Yes, quite simply,

Quote
I thought Parkour was all about "finding your own way" in movement

is not correct. "Finding your own way to move as quickly / effectively as possible" is more like it. Then it becomes pretty clear that a flip would extremely rarely be the best / most effecitve  / quickest way to move in a situation.

The beauty of free running is that it is open to all types of movement as it's not constrained by the one basic premise of effective movement.

Hopefully this is enough to put this to rest:)

Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Pat Kerby on May 23, 2006, 10:13:29 PM
OK.  Parlour/Free running.....I'll take the one with no rules.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Asa Liebmann on May 23, 2006, 10:35:33 PM
anarchy?

Mr. Kerby, don't look at these ideas as rules, but as guidelines. There are no "rules" to fishing, but there are basic guidelines. That is to use certain tools in order to catch fish.

Without defining principles, what would separate Fishing from Archery, or reading from writing, or you from me?
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Pat Kerby on May 23, 2006, 11:31:38 PM
I think this is more like arguing about how to cast the lure, when the object is catching the fish. But I'm sorry I brought it up, and understand that, like with anything spiritual, parkour, or whatever you want to call what I'm doing, is a personal thing.  Each person gets his own rewards, and has his own reasons for participating. For me it's about the freedom of it, so I view any rules as constraints.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Matthew Lee Willis on May 24, 2006, 01:29:49 AM
Oh what do we have here...a flipping post...*backs away slowly*
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Mark Toorock on May 24, 2006, 02:39:57 AM
Hahahhaha Bravo Mr. Willis!!!
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: CyanideSoda on May 24, 2006, 03:46:17 AM
When i clicked on this thread i thought it was about "Flippin". Like when people turn on the mob and rat them out. I need to stop watcing so much sopranos. :-\
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: ERI1044 on May 24, 2006, 04:32:38 AM
hahahahahaha



*flame*

that's all i have to say :-p
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Olloth Kenson on May 24, 2006, 06:36:24 AM
Mr. Willis got an applaud from me on that one! Bravo indeed!
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Asa Liebmann on May 24, 2006, 08:08:32 AM
Parkour gives you a "relative" type of freedom wherin nothing can stop you from reaching your destination, fulfilling your purpose, etc.

However, if you want absolute freedom, then nothing with a name can give you that, that's something for you to find on your own.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Deft on May 24, 2006, 08:30:13 AM
I feel that somehow by giving Matthew some more smites it will help the situation hehe ;)
**pents fingers in Mr. Burns style and says...."Excellent..."**
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Pat Kerby on May 24, 2006, 09:02:13 AM
Geez, it's like I mentioned "He who cannot be named" or something.  I'd just like to point out that in Asa's animated logo there is a gainer, and a front flip....and I'm still in awe of Skynative.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Asa Liebmann on May 24, 2006, 09:22:52 AM
A friend of mine designed that animation, and I liked it very much, regardless of the fact that there are flips in it. Flips are fun, challenging and definately impressive. This doesn't make them Parkour.

Skynative is amazing!

It is possible, and probable, that everyone who does Parkour has other interests as well.

I for instance, enjoy dancing. Because I am a traceur, and I dance, does this make dancing Parkour?


Also I suggest you go to the "Movements" section and read "techniques in parkour" where you will find that there is no single movement that is Parkour by itself.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: MONKEY KING on May 24, 2006, 11:56:20 AM
W3rd. I personally dont have a problem with people doing flips and all that, I dont think it can be called Parkour, simply because the whole thing in parkour is navigating obstacles fluidly, effectively, and using the least amount of energy possible. I mean, If you're in a tall building and a missile just hit the top, debris, shrapnel, fire, and roof threaten to collapse on your head, oh and there's a moderate sized group of mercenary coming up the steps for you. Do you seriously think that's the best time to be attempting a flip to get away? Maybe you do, Ive never been in that situation but I dont think a flip will ever be relative to anything but old fashioned liberating fun.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: ERI1044 on May 24, 2006, 12:09:18 PM
yep!! you've got it Mr.V  ;D
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Andy Animus Tran on May 24, 2006, 01:33:32 PM
Parkour is, above all else, about efficiency of movement.  Freerunning is about freedom of movement.  L'art du deplacement is about moving through the environment in ways not before conceived.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Steez on May 24, 2006, 03:20:58 PM
I don't think that Parkour is all about *efficiency* of movement.  often times, there would be a way to get to where you are going by expending less energy than Parkour would dictate, and thus be more efficient.  Parkour is about the *effectivity* of movement, meaning the best balance between speed and efficiency (you usually can't get both)

props to matthew!
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Andy Animus Tran on May 24, 2006, 03:28:27 PM
I don't think that Parkour is all about *efficiency* of movement.  often times, there would be a way to get to where you are going by expending less energy than Parkour would dictate, and thus be more efficient.  Parkour is about the *effectivity* of movement, meaning the best balance between speed and efficiency (you usually can't get both)

props to matthew!

How about "directness" of motion?
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Asa Liebmann on May 24, 2006, 03:40:40 PM
you can be very direct as you walk slowly...

this is veering off subject.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Matthew Menze on May 24, 2006, 03:47:53 PM
Wait...Isn't Parkour freedom of travel, vrs Freerunning which is freedom of motion? If so, flip are almost always not parkour, but at worst calling them Parkout is just a mistake of words...Alot of people just assume that "freerunning" is a amaericanized word for "parkour".

Matt
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: RyanV on May 24, 2006, 04:04:33 PM
I thought i read somewhere that at one time freerunning was a term to describe the term Parkour for non-french speaking people. But since that time the media and peoples ideals have given freerunning a new definition all its own distinctly different from Parkour.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Valigon on May 24, 2006, 08:20:31 PM
I dont see why so many Traucers are scared of talk of flips, i mean yeah its not "Parkour" but then again there is no "Real" definition to parkour because to each his own, every person has a differnet experiance with "Parkour" and its hard to give something that is difernt from person to person a "Real" defintion. so what if one guy does a flip and calls it parkour, the fact of the matter is that in HIS mind it was parkour, furthermore isnt it kind of oxymoronic for Traucers to talk about not caring what others think of them, then they go and criticize eachother for calling something "parkour" when they dont aggree with them. kind of like a docter telling you not to smoke cigs, while hes pufing a pipe. Anyway im gona stop now before i start pulling stuff out of my butt to keep typing....
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Steez on May 24, 2006, 08:49:58 PM
I dont see why so many Traucers are scared of talk of flips, i mean yeah its not "Parkour" but then again there is no "Real" definition to parkour because to each his own, every person has a differnet experiance with "Parkour" and its hard to give something that is difernt from person to person a "Real" defintion. so what if one guy does a flip and calls it parkour, the fact of the matter is that in HIS mind it was parkour, furthermore isnt it kind of oxymoronic for Traucers to talk about not caring what others think of them, then they go and criticize eachother for calling something "parkour" when they dont aggree with them. kind of like a docter telling you not to smoke cigs, while hes pufing a pipe. Anyway im gona stop now before i start pulling stuff out of my butt to keep typing....

there is a definition for Parkour, dictated by David Belle, who gets to do cool things like that.  http://parkour.net/modules/articles/item.php?itemid=1
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Argon on May 24, 2006, 09:07:13 PM
My problem with flips is that there are so many people who, though often they are not primarily traceurs, care about flips much more than other techniques, almost to the total exclusion of other elements of training. Sure, that seems fine, but it really creates problems for themselves and others.

First, the appeal of parkour, to me, is one of ethos. I train, diet, and excercise, not to impress anyone else, but because I want to experience greater things and push myself further. I think alot of true traceurs share this passion, and consequently, we put alot of focus into our training from the ground up. We strength train, endurance train, and drill the basics over and over again. We stretch, warm-up, and eat right, all so that we can give our maximum performance.

When it comes to flips, the appeal seems to be largely logos, people want to try them because of the thrill of succesfully completing the move, and the bragging rights that go with it. The value associated with this is a direct consequence of the real and percieved danger of these manuevers. However, because many people want only to flip succesfully, they neglect other parts of thier training. They put themselves at risk or injury in doing so, and by taking short-cuts in thier training, they make the prgoession appear quick and easy, enticing others to do the same.

I can do all sorts of flips and tumbling moves, but typically I only do them when I'm alone, when I can focus and not worry about other people's perceptions, or my own desire to impress them. The converse of this is, to me, what causes all the trouble.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: klaymen on May 24, 2006, 11:35:52 PM
I dont see why so many Traucers are scared of talk of flips

well, do a search in the forums  ;)

it is tedious work explaining the same things over and over again.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Skipper on May 25, 2006, 05:02:15 AM
we arent scared, we are ABSOLUTELY SICK OF EXPLAINING IT.

so just assume we have done it millions of times and do us a favor and not argue over it. ;)
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: ERI1044 on May 25, 2006, 06:31:31 AM
please please please please do us all a favor and READ everything on the front pages before posting on the forums....


http://www.americanparkour.com/content/view/223/270/ (http://www.americanparkour.com/content/view/223/270/)

edit: flips are awesome!! they're just not parkour...
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Pat Kerby on May 25, 2006, 08:20:29 AM
Read it....didn't agree.  Since then I have heard David Belle himself say that flips are not really a part of parkour (while he was doing a flip), and since he gave it the name, he gets to decide.  But in the first video I saw of him, he was flipping all over the place.  So I guess he wasn't doing parkour in those videos either.  Whatever you call it, I like it. 
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Mark Toorock on May 25, 2006, 08:39:15 AM
Haha. Yes, very sick of it. ;)

I think people are confusing one thing here as a recurring theme:

The APPEAL of Parkour may be different to each person: "I like Parkour because of this and you like it because of that".
Please do not confuse this to mean that Parkour is different for each person. Parkour is a defined thing, there is tons of good (and bad) information on what Parkour is.

I really can't believe people could still think it is "Freedom of movement" - it is not.

Please people, before posting "I thought it was this" or "Isn't Parkour just" ... read "What Parkour Is" on the homepage. If there is a concept in there that is not clear, then please post a question in a well thought out way.

This site is about to see a huge explosion in traffic when District B13 goes National on June 2nd. There will be hundreds of new people (thousands?) who will NEED to be given a good, accurate, concise definiton of Parkour (Parkour is DEFINED by PAWA and David Belle) They may also need a good DESCRIPTION of Parkour, which is where things like "What Parkour Is" fit in.

It will take a lot of effort and patience from the good people of this community to spread the correct message about Parkour, so please, if you don't know the facts, or if you disagree with PAWA's definiton, get it worked out now instead of posting confusing information as if it was fact on here for new people.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Mark Toorock on May 25, 2006, 08:45:10 AM
Oh, I wanted to add something else to this conversation which will hopefully save people a lot of angst.

Nobody is "Down on Flips". They are just not part of Parkour. This is a nuetral statement, not good, not bad, not happy, not sad, and definitely not angry or argumentative, simply a fact.

I am learning gymnsatics, I love doing flips (confined to the gym for now), David Belle does flips. That doesn't make it part of Parkour.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Skipper on May 25, 2006, 09:13:10 AM
David cooks breakfast occasionally too, but alas, that is not parkour either.

"But skipper, david is the creator of parkour, why is he doing flips and cooking breakfast??? is he allowed to do all of that stuff????"

Why yes, sometimes he takes a few minutes out of his day to not do parkour as well.

we learn something new everyday, knowledge is power kids.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Gearsighted on May 25, 2006, 11:21:59 AM
Well, just so you all know, everything I do, and have ever done is Parkour. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Skipper on May 25, 2006, 11:58:08 AM
but YOU didnt invent parkour... explain that one mr. wizard!
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Steez on May 25, 2006, 03:32:23 PM
come on skipper, that's easy stuff.  CLEARLY, gear went forward in time and gained advanced knowledge of very intricate genetic/biological engineering.  he then went back in time and created David Belle.

so you see, he did invent parkour  ;)
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Gearsighted on May 25, 2006, 03:33:40 PM
Thank you. I think I did a good job too.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: ERI1044 on May 25, 2006, 03:52:22 PM
HAHAHAHAHA this just made my day  ;D
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Alex \"Ace\" Scott on May 25, 2006, 10:53:00 PM
Those last 6 posts, I think, make this the coolest thread ever  :P. ;D
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: The Manilla Gorilla on May 26, 2006, 05:09:18 AM
Yeah, L looked atvthe tread and was like"ohh god, how did this Are flips PK thread get up to 3 Pages..." Then i saw M2's post and nodded in agrement, Then i saw gear and Skippers posts and smiled... Way to turn lemons into lemonade
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Quazar on May 26, 2006, 10:08:23 PM
...and then have a lemonade fight
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: FreeStyleFox on May 27, 2006, 08:27:06 AM
Ahhh my eye it burns it burns!!!!!
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: MONKEY KING on May 28, 2006, 07:02:54 PM
David cooks breakfast occasionally too, but alas, that is not parkour either.

"But skipper, david is the creator of parkour, why is he doing flips and cooking breakfast??? is he allowed to do all of that stuff????"

Why yes, sometimes he takes a few minutes out of his day to not do parkour as well.

we learn something new everyday, knowledge is power kids.

Lmao
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Pat Kerby on May 29, 2006, 11:06:50 PM
Yeah,...whatever.  But face the fact that newcomers to Parkour....Free running, or whatever you want to call it, get interested from seeing videos of people like Chase Armitage, Skynative and DAVID BELLE doing impossible leaps, vaults, and FLIPS.  Sebastian Foucan's demo even has a front flip in it.  Anytime the media gets a demonstration, knowing nothing about it, they're going to say "how about some flips?", and when you go into the long, boring explanation of how flips are not really Parkour, they are going to hear "blah, blah blah.....let's find someone to do some flips.  (See http://www.americanparkour.com/smf/index.php/topic,1501.0.html).  I can understand your desire to keep it "pure", but from a newcomer/filmmaker's perspective, it seems a bit elitist and silly.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Gearsighted on May 30, 2006, 01:23:32 AM
Wow...you mean that a newcomer might misinterpret something and that perhaps it is our job to guide them in the right direction?! I've never heard such a thing!

Then again, according to what you're saying, we should adjust the meaning of the art for each person who comes to us misinformed. If we continually did this, then Parkour would have absolutely no meaning. Eventually EVERYTHING would be Parkour, which would make Parkour NOTHING....
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Andrew Hull on May 30, 2006, 03:31:30 AM
Didn't Belle break from the yamakazi because of how they were practising parkour? That they became freestyle instead of traditional?
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: ERI1044 on May 30, 2006, 12:21:17 PM
nope....the freestyle part is wrong atleast... that was made up by Urban freeflow a lil while ago...thank god it's gone now ;D

i think yamakazi was doing "art du displacement"(sp?) 


i of course could be wrong since i have not followed the entire life story of db.....still don't get the beef he has with seb or if there even is a beef or if they were ever friends.....'


STORY TIME!
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Gearsighted on May 30, 2006, 01:57:49 PM
The break could have been for a variety of reasons, none of which matter now, and especially not to those not involved in the actual situation ;)
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: CyanideSoda on May 30, 2006, 04:20:18 PM
I want to see a solid chunk of footage with foucan. I've seen little pieces and he looks amazing.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Gearsighted on May 30, 2006, 04:32:54 PM
http://parkour.com/media/video1.wmv

There's one more short, if you haven't seen it. Lots of old footage, still...
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Quazar on May 31, 2006, 12:45:45 AM
It's my understanding that when that schism took place it was because the guys from Yamakasi signed on to the Yamakasi film which presented the art in a way that glorified using the skills for theivery and portrayed it in a reckless rebellious light.  This, he aptly considered the "prostitution of the art" and so they went their seperate ways.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Altimot on May 31, 2006, 07:03:02 AM
^^^what he said, im not saying its true, im just saying thats what i heard^^^
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Mike "Pyro" Araujo on May 31, 2006, 11:17:40 AM
If people come here thinking that parkour is only big leaps and flips then they should take time and see what it really is instead of thinking that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I think it was two weeks ago Belle was in NY for the B13 screening. And there was a Q&A after the flim. Although some advised against it some one asked what Belle thought about flips. And guess what he said the same thing everyone is saying now. I have tried flips, and i do handsprings but that doesn't make it parkour.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: The Manilla Gorilla on May 31, 2006, 02:01:15 PM
he was actually asked twice about it :P And i belive Skippper has it taped if you still dont belive it.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: Sredni Vashtar on May 31, 2006, 08:18:24 PM
I don't know about any of you guys but I personally think a huge Kong vault is a hell of a lot more impressive than a flip...


Also, Kerby, here's the thing. You want to go do flips, fine. No one's saying that it's a bad way to move around. But when you integrate flips and other moves that have no purpose but to be showy, then it just can't be called Parkour. There's no *wrong* way to get over a rail, but parkour requires that you maximize efficiency and speed,  and flips reduce efficiency a great deal. I mean, if you were being chased, would you even THINK of flipping over something?

Yeah, it's almost purely a matter of semantics, but the distinction between parkour and freerunning is a pretty important one.
Title: Re: Why so down on flipping?
Post by: FreeStyleFox on May 31, 2006, 09:18:40 PM
Why didn't this thread die?  :o