Author Topic: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma  (Read 53157 times)

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2008, 07:00:31 AM »
hey phreaknite, not against you anything but why is bread/wheat bad?

No offense taken.  I don't think I addressed this in this thread.

I posted a ton of info on the "evils of bread" in other threads....search the forums, I think the most recent is in Muse_of_fire's thread in the Diet forum called "Zone (and similar) diets.." or something like that.

Bread (and most products made with flour and grains) are very high in carbohydrate.  It is easy to overconsume carbs when you eat breads, especially if you eat out where they will give u 200g of bread (over 100g carbs) and 2 oz of meat (about 15-20g protein).  Thats a big imbalance and most people don't compensate for it.

Secondly, the carbs within bread, rice and grain products have a high glycemic index (and, in case you care) a high glycemic load.  This means the carbs from the bread enter the blood stream quite quickly when compared to other types of carbs that are higher in fiber relative to their consumable carbs (like broccoli, for instance). 

This means more sugar in your blood.
This means a spike in insulin.
This means fat storage.
This means blood sugar plummets as insulin spikes.
This means your brain doesn't get enough sugars.
This means you feel tired, lazy, and foggy-headed (shouldn't be surprising if you ever ate a big pasta meal..)

There is no benefit to eating carbs en masse like this.  This is why breads are bad, unless u REALLY balance them in your meals.

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2008, 11:15:32 AM »
I'm currently at the college lunch common's and to give someone an example as to how bread makes it's way into everything we eat....here we go:

Pizza - white refined bread
Pasta - white refined
pasta toss - white refined with vegetables (and/or tons of processed meat)
Baked ziti - white refined
Chicken fingers - breaded and deep fried
mozz sticks - breaded deep fried
french fries - heavily breaded and deep fried / potatoes
potato skins - heavily breaded / deep fried
burger onslaught - accompanied with white refined buns
quiznos - not to mention high in fat, accompanied by very high carb sub rolls
yogurt - extremely high sugar + high sat fat granola

What else do they offer?

Fruit - not alot...mostly bottom of the barrel type stuff
Parfaits - with high sugar yogurt and granola as mentioned
soups - the kind high in HFCS
tiny bowl salad - "salad" with lettuce and *1* slice of cucumber and *1* cherry tomato
quiznos salad - "bowl of lettuce" with processed meats and retarded amounts of dressing piled on
Cookies

Good luck staying away from bread. It has a death grip on society and it won't let go easy...I've been sitting here for about 20 minutes now and it seems 15-20 people have left with nothing but two slices of pizza

Offline Rickoise

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2008, 11:19:04 AM »
well you have to remember that bread is light and fluffy, you don't need to eat 200grams of bread to make a sandwich
according to the bread i have in my cabinet, each slice is only 27 grams, meaning you only eat 54 grams of bread in a sandwhichand by your calculations its 27 grams of crabs which isn't bad for your 20 grams protein from your meat,(like 10% of you daily carbs and 25% of your daily protein) plus whatever lettuce or tomatoes you put on it also.  A sandwich is a pretty balanced food.


Edit: Oh and i almost forgot that my wheat bread also has 10grams of protein per 2 slices. so you're getting more protein than carbs when you eat a sandwich with meat.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 11:23:33 AM by Rickoise »

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2008, 11:32:46 AM »
false rickoise...

no time to respond now, ill touch on this later

Offline chipset

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2008, 03:38:15 PM »

This means you feel tired, lazy, and foggy-headed (shouldn't be surprising if you ever ate a big pasta meal..)

There is no benefit to eating carbs en masse like this.  This is why breads are bad, unless u REALLY balance them in your meals.

If you go and run ten miles you really start to feel difference between having pasta and not having pasta. It really depends on the activity level. Even if you're not runner, but just exercise hard, you consume something along the lines of 2500 calories a day (shot in the dark, my daily norm is about 3500 but I'm heavyweight distance runner). About 40% (1000 calories) comes from carbos. That's at least 250g of carbohydrates. A DAY.

Where'd you gonna get that except from bread and pasta?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 03:41:32 PM by chipset »
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2008, 04:58:04 PM »
well you have to remember that bread is light and fluffy, you don't need to eat 200grams of bread to make a sandwich
according to the bread i have in my cabinet, each slice is only 27 grams, meaning you only eat 54 grams of bread in a sandwhichand by your calculations its 27 grams of crabs which isn't bad for your 20 grams protein from your meat,(like 10% of you daily carbs and 25% of your daily protein) plus whatever lettuce or tomatoes you put on it also.  A sandwich is a pretty balanced food.


Edit: Oh and i almost forgot that my wheat bread also has 10grams of protein per 2 slices. so you're getting more protein than carbs when you eat a sandwich with meat.

Thats simply not true.  Sure, there are some airy breads, with almost nothing to them.  But weigh the normal amount of bread u get in a sandwich from subway, your local deli, or any other sandwich shop.  Then weigh the meat.  For now, ignore the dressings, vegetables and spreads (which mostly just add carbs and fat, anyway).  You will find that the bread outweighs the meats by 2, 3 or even 4 times.  Plus, while meats are mostly protein, gram for gram they have a lot of water.  Bread, per volume, is pretty much all consumable carbohydrate.

1 slice of italian bread (30g) has 15 g of carbs, and 9 grams of protein.  Its important to note that these proteins are from grains and are pretty much worthless.  The absorption rate for grain proteins is something like 40-50%.  That means you are really only getting 4g of amino acids into your blood stream for 15g of carbs in that bread.  With 2 oz of turkey breast ur only getting 10g of protein.  That means with 2 slices of bread and 2 oz of meat, you have:

30g carb  ------------- 120 calories
14g protein ----------- 56 Calories

Lets just say, for simplicity, that you are getting 54 calories from fat (6g fat) as well, and lets not care about the source for now.

That means you are getting 24% calories from protein and 52% of your calories from carbs.  You're just asking for an insulin spike.  Not to mention, you haven't taken into account the added carbs from vegetables and spreads you would like on your sandwich.

With that said, you're also looking at a pretty scrappy meal....most people would accompany the sandwich with something like chips or (if ur healthy) some sort of veggie, which is just adding more carbs.

Now, lets see how big of a meal we could get with broccoli instead of bread.  Broccoli has 4 grams net carbs per cup.  That means, to get the same exact meal (carb for carb) you would need over 6 cups of broccoli.  Have you ever tried eating even 2 cups of broccoli?  That meal went from scrappy to tremendous very quickly just by taking out the bread and using a vegetable as the carb.

Breads have their place but do recognize that you may be sacrificing that nice satisfied feeling because u are packing all of your carbs into your bread.


This means you feel tired, lazy, and foggy-headed (shouldn't be surprising if you ever ate a big pasta meal..)

There is no benefit to eating carbs en masse like this.  This is why breads are bad, unless u REALLY balance them in your meals.

If you go and run ten miles you really start to feel difference between having pasta and not having pasta. It really depends on the activity level. Even if you're not runner, but just exercise hard, you consume something along the lines of 2500 calories a day (shot in the dark, my daily norm is about 3500 but I'm heavyweight distance runner). About 40% (1000 calories) comes from carbos. That's at least 250g of carbohydrates. A DAY.

Where'd you gonna get that except from bread and pasta?

First off, running 10 miles is a lot different than the day to day diet.  Secondly, 1000 calories from carbs is not a lot.  I get 40% of my calories from carbs...I rarely eat bread, pastas or noodles.  250g of carbs a day is not a lot at all so long as you keep it balanced with your proteins.

There are way better sources for high density carbohydrates that don't have high Glycemic Indicies or loads.  Beans, corn and sweet potatoes are three examples off the top of my head.  All contain more micronutrients and fiber than bread do, as well.

My daily norm for calories is somewhere between 3500-4000.  I get 40% from carbs.  Thats not carb overloading.  I am going to guess that you just THINK you are getting 40% of your calories from carbs, when its probably way more.  Typically, when people carb load, they are taking in 80%-100% of their total caloric intake as carbs....and even those who do it usually save that kind of dieting just for a major running bout, like a marathon or half marathon.


Carb loading is dangerous and not beneficial, ANYWAY.  There are several articles on this, written by scientists AND athletes, both active and retired.  The only time carb loading is even remotely safe is when its immediately after a bout of exertion due to an anomaly in muscle physiology that causes "sugar gathering" components of muscle fibers to gather at the surface near the blood-muscle interface at that time.

In short, if you make bread a staple in your diet then you are just hurting yourself.  You will either over eat because you are not satisfied with your bready meal or you will be forever hungry because you will be not eating enough volume because of the amount of bread you ate....not to mention missing out on a slew of micronutrients..

Offline chipset

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2008, 05:45:45 PM »
The problem is, a footlong subway sandwich is about 700-800 calories. However, I might eat ramen noodles in the morning (+400 calories = 1200 calories). Then maybe a meal with meat at dinner (~800 cal). Then maybe a powerbar (+300 calories) before run/workout. That's roughly 2500 calories or 1000 calories below my norm. So, really pasta saves the day (say pasta instead of ramen, +700 calories instead of 400).
That leaves me with a buffer of 700 calories that I like to fill with fruit.

My point is, it is hard to get calories from protein :(
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2008, 05:57:08 PM »
well, its not about calories, anyway

each macronutrient has its purpose

thinking you are going to be using your carbs the same way as your protein is a pretty big folly

Offline Ken PKChiro

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2008, 06:25:47 PM »
phreak, I've been very impressed by your posts here.  Applaud definately. 

I would change rice higher than bread myself, but you have it down overall.  Bread in general is just another form of sugar.  I don't have a problem with wheat... real wheat products, not processed, but nowadays, even wheat bread is significantly processed.   I won't bother to repeat phreak, but in general he's got it right.  You get MUCH more from red meat, etc etc. 

I even know of several doctors and chiros, who will REFUSE any patient who is a vegetarian because you just can't heal these people.  In addition, several of these guys tend to cut all but meat and veggies from the diet (intermittent fruit), and these are the people who deal with cancer patients etc etc daily.  Just a thought.
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Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2008, 06:54:19 PM »
Yeah, I don't get why they try to make wheat bread taste like white bread.  Wheat bread is delicious.  White bread tastes like nothing.  (I was raised on white bread.)

Oh, and for whoever said to remove the yolk from egg... it's unnecessary.

This all said...  Roll up your meat and cheese in lettuce or something.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2008, 07:07:39 PM »
This all said...  Roll up your meat and cheese in lettuce or something.

If you are going to do this, then make sure u get another source of carb like a veggie or fruit.

Lettuce has 15 calories per 2 cups -- thats 4 grams of net carbs in 2 cups....thats nothing.  Make sure you get your carb from somewhere -- and a good source.

and thanks a bunch Cheetaur, compliments are always appreciated :P  When are you going to come back to colorado so that u can fix me, i hear legends and myths haha..

Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2008, 07:08:15 PM »
Yowzerz.... and I was under the impression that bread was good. It only says 6-11 servings on that pyramid ;D But I guess it is just all about balance...

While we are on the topic of grainy-ish things, I was wondering about the quality of those Nature Valley Oats & Honey granola bars. I attached the nutrition label to this post. I usually have one after a workout (since I didn't know this about bread, it makes me think other things aren't as good as I thought...)


@ phreaknite, how do you know so much? :P Your job or you've just been into this stuff for a while? Btw, +1, good job ;D
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2008, 07:16:44 PM »
Yowzerz.... and I was under the impression that bread was good. It only says 6-11 servings on that pyramid ;D But I guess it is just all about balance...

While we are on the topic of grainy-ish things, I was wondering about the quality of those Nature Valley Oats & Honey granola bars. I attached the nutrition label to this post. I usually have one after a workout (since I didn't know this about bread, it makes me think other things aren't as good as I thought...)


@ phreaknite, how do you know so much? :P Your job or you've just been into this stuff for a while? Btw, +1, good job ;D

OMG do not quote the Food Pyramid in front of me!!!!

The FDA approved food pyramid is evil.  It is my opinion that the pyramid is a major contributor to the reason why this country is so fat. NO ONE needs that many carbs in that kind of balance with protein.  In addition to that, everyone's diet and needs are different and saying that ONE pyramid can sum up a whole planet of human nutrition is just insanity.

If you want a better pyramid that is more accurate buy the book "Mastering the Zone" by Barry Sears....he has a much better pyramid that I do not want to post here for copyright reasons...

In regards to the granola bars, they go the same for all the grains i have been discussing.  They are high in carb for their volume which will leave u generally unsatisfied.  Additionally, the grains have a high glycemic index which will likely make u fat.  Since this is a post workout meal (well more like a snack) thats not too bad...but still a bit high in carb imho.

You may want to eat a hard boiled egg or two with that bar. 


EDIT:  Those bars are really not ideal -- after looking again, the second ingredient is sugar.  This is just going to be a huge sugar bomb to your system.  I would avoid them and switch over to either something more natural (ingredients being grains and a natural sweetener like honey) or a supplement bar if u want a quick bar-type meal..

In general, I would switch to a more balanced protein bar like the ones made by the South Beach Diet or Zone Perfect bars or even MetRx snack bars.

Really though, a well rounded meal would do you better after a workout.

In regards to how I know so much, I did a ton of independent research just reading around in credible articles, books, textbooks and talking to really smart people.  I constantly learn new things and i learned the most by being wrong and knowing that I didn't know it all...

Honest ignorance is better than simulated understanding :P

« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 07:25:46 PM by phreaknite »

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2008, 07:17:31 PM »
and I was under the impression that bread was good. It only says 6-11 servings on that pyramid ;D

I'll assume that smiley was used in lieu of Brian's face to show sarcasm...otherwise I'll be forced to go an a very lengthy rant about grains, the FDA, and the loser food guide pyramid...

EDIT - nvm Chris beat me to it  :P

Re-EDIT - Ok honestly. Here's one thing you guys need to realize. Ingredient listings are listed in compositional order. You see there grains make up the first ingredient...all right cool. What do we have after that?  Sugar. Nice. And no this doesn't mean fructose, it means sucrose. Insulin spiker baby!

Alright blah blah keep reading...BAM brown sugar and HFCS. Nice. Brown sugar is sucrose with a tiny bit of mollasses in it. Everyone should know by now what HFCS is. We're like four or five ingredients in and already we have three forms of highly refined forms of sugar. Worrying about the oats is not the issue here. The sugar in these is just absurd.

"Nature's Valley." Just because it says Nature in the name doesn't make it healthy...
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 07:27:06 PM by ChadManX »

Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2008, 07:38:41 PM »
Maybe it would be a good thing to do that rant in a new thread so that it may be stickied and read by all?

I know quite a few things over the broad spectrum of health and watevs. One year of Health class ftl.

And don't worry, I don't really believe anything that I see without doing a bit of research on my own. I guess that's why I asked. ;D

My math teacher, Dr. Gorman, says that HCFS is practically poison. Would that be an accurate description? ;D
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 07:41:29 PM by Veloce »
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Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2008, 07:50:32 PM »
Maybe it would be a good thing to do that rant in a new thread so that it may be stickied and read by all?

Yeah I'll see what I can come up with...last month or so of college so might be a little stretched.

Quote

My math teacher, Dr. Gorman, says that HCFS is practically poison. Would that be an accurate description? ;D

And yeah thats a fairly decent description  :P

Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2008, 08:06:35 PM »
This all said...  Roll up your meat and cheese in lettuce or something.

If you are going to do this, then make sure u get another source of carb like a veggie or fruit.

Lettuce has 15 calories per 2 cups -- thats 4 grams of net carbs in 2 cups....thats nothing.  Make sure you get your carb from somewhere -- and a good source.

and thanks a bunch Cheetaur, compliments are always appreciated :P  When are you going to come back to colorado so that u can fix me, i hear legends and myths haha..

I think that one lunch without too many carbs isn't going to hurt you so much.  Lunch is basically a snack, anyhow.  But if you're looking to eat more, I'd assume you'd also add something to that meal.. A few carrots or something.  Lettuce rolls are good when you throw in some other veggies like carrots or broccoli.  Adds a little something extra to an otherwise plain "sandwich."
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2008, 08:17:15 PM »
This all said...  Roll up your meat and cheese in lettuce or something.

If you are going to do this, then make sure u get another source of carb like a veggie or fruit.

Lettuce has 15 calories per 2 cups -- thats 4 grams of net carbs in 2 cups....thats nothing.  Make sure you get your carb from somewhere -- and a good source.

and thanks a bunch Cheetaur, compliments are always appreciated :P  When are you going to come back to colorado so that u can fix me, i hear legends and myths haha..

I think that one lunch without too many carbs isn't going to hurt you so much.  Lunch is basically a snack, anyhow.  But if you're looking to eat more, I'd assume you'd also add something to that meal.. A few carrots or something.  Lettuce rolls are good when you throw in some other veggies like carrots or broccoli.  Adds a little something extra to an otherwise plain "sandwich."

I tend to disagree with this.  Every meal one should be aiming for balance.  If you go the other way from carb loading and deprive your body of carbs you force your body to use protein and fat sources as your main source of energy.  This leads to a hard working liver and a high yield of nitrogenous wastes in your blood stream, particularly ammonia.

I never said rolling your food in lettuce was bad -- i happen to think its delicious.  I just meant that more carbs should be included in a meal where this is your main course :)

Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2008, 08:22:51 PM »
If you do make that big summary thread of stuff, I would include all of the benefits of doing this.

To me (and I think I might be a good example of the average ignorant consumer), it appears like this amount of healthy eating might not be necessary. It seems to me that there is no problem with having a 1/2 or 2/3 healthy meal, if you get what I'm saying.

I'm thinking of something like (and this is something I guessed at, not based off of anything):
Since all this bad and artificial/processed stuff cannot be digested, the bad ingredients stay in your body. This can be linked to increased drowsiness the next day and increased feelings of fatigue. By avoiding these completely, you should find yourself feeling more energized and more refreshed.

If somebody saw stuff like that, the reasoning to stay away from that stuff completely would make lot more sense, especially if you directly say why it's bad and not just that it is.

EDIT: Like in ^that post, yes Ammonia in your blood does sound bad, but I don't really know why. What will it result in?
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Offline Rickoise

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2008, 09:46:52 PM »
I even know of several doctors and chiros, who will REFUSE any patient who is a vegetarian because you just can't heal these people. 

Sounds like a doctor not willing to put in the work to help someone. Also I don't see how being vegetarian causes you to be incurable.