Author Topic: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma  (Read 53193 times)

Offline Steve Low

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #120 on: March 30, 2009, 08:53:33 PM »
Dude, you just stated what was already said in this thread....

Ketosis is FINE if you're able to function well. If not, find something else.

If your performance is crap on high carbs then you might as well try a moderate/low/ketosis carbs and see how they affect you.

MOST people are not carb tolerant... and wheat/white break has craploads of carbs with no fat/pro so it's best to stay away for MOST people.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #121 on: March 31, 2009, 08:26:23 AM »
Chris,

I understand and agree with most of what you're talking about here.  Not a lot of what you posted in your latest reply was new to me, but there's one point that I would like to make, especially on a forum like this, where some less-experienced people may take things at face value or get ideas in their heads without reading in detail. 

Although you tend to be very thorough with all kinds of information, you should be very careful of what you say regarding the 0 carb issue.  True, a person can survive on 0 carbs a day, at least for a while, but that's putting the body into starvation mode, which essentially eats muscle.  This also limits fuel for the brain, which can be quite detrimental, especially if one is in "survival mode."  Even Lyle McDonald said in the article you just quoted, and I quote;

"However, not everyone functions well in ketosis [referring to production of energy from fats as a substitute for glucose, after quitting all carbs, for those here who don't care to research it]. They get brain fuzzed, lethargic and just generally feel awful. Even with weeks of being on a ketogenic diet, they never seem to adapt completely. That’s not a good recipe for long-term adherence to a diet or healthy functioning or training." 

In normal functioning, carbohydrates are the most efficient way to fuel the brain, without causing detriment to other functions of the body.  Looking at just the brain itself, one needs carbohydrates for fuel, amino acids from protein to help with neurotransmitters and brain communication, fatty acids from fats to help with cell specialization for thinking and feeling, and micronutrients from fruits/veggies for antioxidants.  Why force the body to pull the fats away from their normal function to do double-duty for two of the four things mentioned above?  It doesn't make sense in this day and age.  There's no reason to put the body into that state.  McDonald even seems to have the habit in his article of following each mention of 0 carbs with a mention of including a small amount to prevent various negative effects. 

For the record, you did mention in a previous reply in the glucose post; "Really, you only need 0 carbs a day to survive...like, basic survival.  Not good but possible."  Let that be noted here too for the sake of being thorough, as I'm learning to do with you.  :P

For traceurs, we are athletes, and this type of ketogenic diet would be detrimental IMO.  They do have their uses, yes, but not for us here, unless someone is first trying to lose a lot of weight and start from scratch.  From what I've learned (I'd need to do some digging to find my sources from this a long time ago), returning to carbs after ketosis can also be detrimental as well, similar to when Holocaust survivors stormed the allied troops for food, stuffed themselves with bread, and then died on the spot.   That, of course, is extreme and there were other factors at play, but relevant in regard to switching back and forth. One must be careful returning to carbs after a ketogenic diet.  As I mentioned already, extreme positions on diet just don't seem advantageous for most people in our sphere, which is the reason for my post now again. 

As always, keep up the good work and the volumes of great info you've posted here.  I enjoy the discussion and have learned a lot. 




I think you missed my point...I think I already said most of what was here...

Like steve said, one should experiment with ketosis and with higher carb diets.  I suggest starting with ketosis since most people are already on a higher carb diet.

To reiterate steve again, Wheat/White bread has a crap load of carbs which is hard for most people to control/comprehend.

In terms of weight management/control, if you eat a meal that is 30/40/30 with 10g of protein it doesn't matter really if the carb/protein/fat are from bread, sausage and vegetable oil OR if they are from broccoli, veggies and olive oil.  The latter is healthier for other reasons but weight management is not the case there.  The main difference is that the former you eat less volume -- the latter you eat higher volume...which is more satisfying all around.

Offline Jon

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2009, 06:51:11 AM »
wonder bread gives you cancer don't eat it
if you do eat bread try to get whole wheat fresh bread from a bakery (less preservatives than most shelf brands) plus in my opinion it tastes way better
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 AM »
wonder bread gives you cancer don't eat it
if you do eat bread try to get whole wheat fresh bread from a bakery (less preservatives than most shelf brands) plus in my opinion it tastes way better

Senseless speculation is not welcome here.  There is no evidence that white bread gives you cancer.

Think before you post, please.

Offline Jon

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2009, 08:34:40 AM »
i have nothing against white bread only wonder bread, but your right seriously my bad, but whole wheat is definitely better for you than bleached super-processed crap
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Offline Dan Elric

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #125 on: June 08, 2009, 09:04:11 AM »
i have nothing against white bread only wonder bread, but your right seriously my bad, but whole wheat is definitely better for you than bleached super-processed crap

There's no reason to eat bread at all >.>

Offline Jon

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #126 on: June 08, 2009, 09:10:17 AM »
i like bread but ill stop now
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Offline tombb

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #127 on: June 10, 2009, 12:51:15 PM »
Bread, including any specific bread like wonder bread does not give you cancer.

Also, there is no reason to eat any one food, but you need some food, and given that simple fact you should try to get a well-balanced and nutritious diet. Bread can definitely be part of any diet as long as it's well balanced and in moderation. It has some drawbacks like low fiber and higher caloric density, so you have to adjust your portions and other foods accordingly (e.g., eat it in good balance with extra fibers from vegetables and extra proteins etc, and in smaller portions).
Given that, there is nothing wrong in rotating bread and grains in your diet. You can avoid it if you don't particularly like it and it makes it easier for you to balance your diet, but the important thing is to have a balanced diet, you are much better off with a balanced diet with bread than an imbalanced diet that doesn't fit your metabolic and nutritional needs and doesn't contain bread.

It's important to separate myths and urban legends from reality, there are a lot of very misguided notions out there, like people who think HFCS is somehow worse than the sugar in fruits or honey, or think that pasteurized milk is nutritionally worse than non-pasteurized one, and even think that hormones in milk affect humans (they don't) or that fresh milk would have less of them (it has more, since pasteurization actually disables ~90% of them even before digestion destroys the rest, and cows' milk naturally contains cow's hormones anyways). All those are myths that have been disproved by science and yet still survive because people repeat them without looking into them.

There are things that can cause cancer in some foods, like sodium nitrites in conserved meats forming nitrosamines and causing gastric cancer (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16865769 ) bad again you can tell the difference between actual reality and myths because they are not related to any specific chemical or studies (why would "wonder bread" give cancer? Just because it has "wonder" in the name? None of the ingredients are carcinogens)

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #128 on: June 10, 2009, 01:22:08 PM »
Tom,

I agree, obviously, with the notion that saying wonder bread causes cancer is silly...as I stated above.

You kind of go on a crusade in your post, though, which I would like to address for a second.

Firstly, bread and grains CAN be a part of your diet -- it certainly won't kill you -- but i see no reason why it SHOULD be in a diet.  All of the benefits of bread (like B vitamins and carbs, pretty much...) can be found in much better sources that don't carry the same burden of having to watch portions vigorously...fruits and vegetables, for example.  I still vote that, in practice, for >90% of the population, it is way more practical and easier to just avoid breads and grains when possible.  Though, if you HAVE to eat it, its not like eating poison, necessarily.

Secondly, in terms of dairy, the claims of cancer causing are pretty much unfounded.  The claims of hormones causing a decrease in the age of sexual maturity only holds a weak link at very best.  (Let me preface my next statement with the fact that I eat TONS of cheese and drink at least a half gallon a milk a day out of habit these days...)  The problem with milk, though, is that in practice it is again (1) easy to overconsume and (2) easy to misplace it in the diet when it can be against the goals of the athlete.  Overall, milk can be beneficial in weight loss (for large populations) but there are others (still large populations) that actually get a pretty high insulin response JUST from the proteins in milk.  Coupled with lactose it can cause a high insulin response when compared to other sources of protein.  With this in mind, it can get in the way of some people (particularly at higher levels of training like more advanced traceurs) who want to cut some of the extra down.  This all stems back to the idea that one should experiment and re-experiment with their diet on a consistent basis.

On that note, you're absolutely right about the nitrates in meat, as one would expect :D

The point is that this goes back to where you and I typically diverge in our views.  I am more a proponent of propagating easy, simple and beneficial practices whereas you are a proponent of giving everyone the big picture, even if it is a bit more complicated, and having them make their own choice.  While I do think your approach is noble and helps people (including myself), for most beginners here I tend to find that the short and simple advice suffices until people come to me asking "WHY!?!"...in which case I answer them.

This may have appeared to be a tangent but I feel it was worth mentioning since, in the rest of this thread, we are definitely against grains/bread and some readers may be confused where this sudden "change of heart" came from in the community.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 01:24:29 PM by Chris Salvato »

Offline Jon

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #129 on: June 10, 2009, 01:24:14 PM »
I GET IT I NEVER REALLY THOUGH THAT WONDER BREAD CAUSES CANCER I WAS MERELY EXAGGERATING THE POINT THAT WONDER BREAD IS NOT AS HEALTHY AS WHOLE WHEAT BREAD
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Offline tombb

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #130 on: June 10, 2009, 02:12:49 PM »
Chris,
I completely agree with all your comments, as you mentioned it's really about our different views of how detailed/complicated or simplified/easier-to-follow we each think advice and understanding should be.
Each has its own advantages and drawbacks, for example even if I try to give the whole accurate picture and help people understand it better, some might just get confused by the details and end up taking no action andremain undecided. On the other hand as you know people just using small simple rules like "x is bad" are more likely to go to extremes, apply them incorrectly and even get preachy and spreading misinformation, and still get fooled by other mistakes (like "sugar is bad, but brown sugar must be good because it's brown!") because they don't yet understand the underlying reasons.

Probably a combination of both is the best, so I always make sure I don't post more often than you do hehe. ;)

I am sure that if I looked at individual people's diets I would be just as likely as you to tell some/many of them that they really are eating too much processed starch (bread etc) and processed sugar, and not enough fibers, proteins and quality foods, because that's just very common in our culture and times. People that have a good balanced diets including grains in moderation are probably the exception.

On a very small side note, insulin is raised by all protein intake, even meat and not just milk, and it's not necessarily a bad thing especially if you exercise, but that's a side discussion we can have another time :P


JFOX, it's good to hear that you did not actually believe it and were just exaggerating, but it's still generally better not to do that because that's how rumors and myths start, people read it, see that nobody corrects you, and assume everyone on the forum must be in agreement with those statements... Believe me I would rather not have to correct these things over and over myself.

Offline Jon

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2009, 05:15:11 AM »
i know exagerating is bad in a forum thats suposed to provide helpful information i formmaly apologise for my misleading information
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Offline Fatalsyn

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #132 on: June 16, 2009, 02:13:10 AM »
Are you saying to cut out bread because you are trying to keep a low calorie diet? So for someone like me who has a 4000 calorie diet, I don't really have to worry about cutting bread out then, right?

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #133 on: June 16, 2009, 05:43:25 AM »
Cutting out bread helps to keep a low calorie diet, yet.  But to get a HIGH calorie diet like 4,000 calories you would likely be more interested in upping your fats more than your carbs because:
1) Fats don't negatively effect insulin sensitivity
2) Fats are more dense in calories so it is easier to get higher calories from fats than carbs.
3) Fats are delicious

In other words, its context dependent.  I would experiment with a lower carb diet to see the benefits of being more insulin sensitive -- but some people don't operate well with low carb.  Only way to find out is to give it a shot...not just for a day but for a month or two.

Offline Fatalsyn

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2009, 04:12:07 PM »
Kk, I'll try that. What do you suggest for good fats?

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #135 on: June 17, 2009, 05:26:42 PM »

Offline Fatalsyn

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #136 on: June 17, 2009, 10:06:30 PM »
My recommendations for good fats can be found here:
http://www.chrissalvato.com/2009/05/eating-right-how-to-get-started/

This site is also good:
http://www.gofrolic.org/gofrolic/food_blog/Entries/2008/12/28_Cooking_Oil_101.html

Thank you very much, I'm going to start making changes to my diet immediately. Cottage cheese, fruits, and unsalted mixed nuts for breakfast now :).

Offline Tom Coppola

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #137 on: July 17, 2009, 10:11:17 AM »
I would have to agree with the exclusion of bread all together.  Gluten, one of the main components of bread, is slowly becoming a highly researched topic within the dietary science community,  and the research is quite interesting.  I would recommend researching gluten free foods and the effects that gluten has on the body.
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Offline tombb

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #138 on: July 17, 2009, 12:27:26 PM »
I would have to agree with the exclusion of bread all together.  Gluten, one of the main components of bread, is slowly becoming a highly researched topic within the dietary science community,  and the research is quite interesting.  I would recommend researching gluten free foods and the effects that gluten has on the body.
Gluten is perfectly fine for you, just like bread is, except some people have Coeliac disease so they are intolerant to it. Look at your diet as a whole, make sure you are getting quality foods and have a balanced nutrition, and you'll be fine, and definitely bread or grains can be part of a good diet.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: White / Wheat Bread Dilemma
« Reply #139 on: July 17, 2009, 02:23:28 PM »
I would have to agree with the exclusion of bread all together.  Gluten, one of the main components of bread, is slowly becoming a highly researched topic within the dietary science community,  and the research is quite interesting.  I would recommend researching gluten free foods and the effects that gluten has on the body.
Gluten is perfectly fine for you, just like bread is, except some people have Coeliac disease so they are intolerant to it. Look at your diet as a whole, make sure you are getting quality foods and have a balanced nutrition, and you'll be fine, and definitely bread or grains can be part of a good diet.

Well, i think thats still up in the air.  I haven't don't much research on the gluten issue yet but I have heard from a few different, more reputable sources, that gluten research is pushing forward with some startling results...in that it is being shown to be more harmful than benign.  As I said, this is just hearsay and its something I am definitely planning to look into a bit more. 

Until I see the research, however, I am hesitant to take a side.

I still think that, for practical purposes, bread/grains should be avoided and viewed as a "treat," though they can fit into a properly planned diet...after some work in figuring out their place.  My exception to that rule of treating them as a "treat" may go away, though, if I see more research that shows gluten has negative effects, though.