Topic: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?

[Deft]

Bachelarius- Your post is very confusing.

quote Bach-"What you fail to realise is the sheer amount of difference there is between an efficient and efficient run"
 HUH?

quote Bach-"Well, I wouldn't say flow is the focus, more fluidity. I.e. you focus more on doing smooth, fluid motions right? You just don't see the need to go all out with the efficiency side of things"
 I never said ALL the focus was on flow, but it is a key element. Flow Vs fluidity is just semantics. Fluidity will have flow and flow will have fluidity. As far as efficiency goes. THAT IS THE ENTIRE ISSUE!!!!!! If efficiency didn't have to be maintained then flips and spins would be common place in parkour. 

quote Bach-"You're just running and that's it. Is that really so similar to what you're describing? Do you think it feels the same as your art?
 I have no idea what you are saying or getting at.

quote Button-"Perhaps they're just smart enough to realise they can do their own thing, without needing a name for it to give themselves 'validation'."
  Seb. said that "action without philosophy has no meaning" I feel that my actions (that of Freestyle parkour/Freerunning)  ((right now I am having to defend my actions and their label.  I feel Seb's quote is the reason for my actions and my title. True, everyone can do their own thing but I want my actions to have a philosophy and to not be without meaning. If I just "did my own thing" as button puts it then I am only doing random nonsense. I am doing a modified version of parkour called either Freestyle Parkour or Freerunning. I choose the first. I see a lot of people doing this and call it goofing off. I take my actions seriously and I take my training seriously. There is a category for it and that is what I do. I will never just pass it off as nonsense.
(and my karma is sooo bad because for every 1 remark I make which some may not like I get 10 smites, and I think little clicks gang up and smite people. Kind of like now they rigged the POWs for a while. but that is all in the past)

m2- to get somewhere as fast as possible is parkour. to do EXACTLY that but with the extra challenge of a flip or so is what I call my art. I feel many people think FRPK is "to show off, or to do tricks" but just imagine this trying to flow as fast as possible and to throw in a spin or move that doesn't slow you down. (that is EXACTLY like in the Disp. video except there was multiple flips) That is the challenge of this art. IT is not to be flashy. If it were just that then it would only be tricking.


quote button-"Deft, I find it really annoying that you say other people are 'closet freestylers' or whatever term you use."
  I only point out Freestyle movement amongst "purists" not to point fingers but to show that they are doing exactly what they tell me is wrong and then say "that I don't know what pk is."  I am pointing out those instances to show you we train, play, practise, and all that the same but that you refuse to accept that when you flip in your run that it is not part of this modified parkour. Every time people flip and spin on a pk run they are fueling this modified parkour. Yes, I admit it is not the original pk created by Belle but Everyone who has ever done a flip or spin mid-run has a hand a creating this modified parkour. It's just that I choose to accept this change where as most people do it but not accept it and I can not sit back and just watch that occur without commenting on it.

this is my last post of the day because I am loosing the fire in the belly to continue this
bottom line is most of the people here will continue to do flips, spins, and other non-efficient moves and so will I. I will at least have the decency to call it something like Freestyle or Freerunning Which is direct offshoot of traditional pk, which I feel is better than doing flips, spins and such and just call it parkour which I feel is more of a bastardization of what Belle has created.

[Tyson Cecka]

Heh, sounds to me like Freerunning is whatever you want it to be

Now Freerun to me is still Parkour and means an attitude: travel, meet peoples share your experiences! FREE your mine, RUN over the world!

And what Faelcind has already posted:

As for david versus seb's definition. I don't see how you can possible say that they're two different ways of describing the same thing. Maybe its the language barrier thing but from reading the site I don't get that impression, the genereal attitude on parkour.com is that parkour is the art of movement to be developed however you see fit, Sebastiens comments all fall in line with this. He says his way his utility, but thats not the same as David saying the way of parkour is utility. What right does Seb have to define parkour apparently no more then he has to call himself the co-founder of parkour, but he does just that on his site. Further evidence that Sebastien's see parkour differently then David can be found in his reference to David practicing the natural method of parkour.

Kinda hits the root of the issue though right?  I think Freerunning is what a lot of people on UF wanted parkour to be so long ago, your own way, your own path, whatever you wanted it to be... And once that view kept using Parkour rather than Freerunning, David finally came out with a definition to set people straight. Seb never did, now just was it his intention to allow people to define Freerunning for themselves or just an English word for Parkour?

And Deft, stop caring so much about what's is in videos on the Internet, do you learn everything in life from videos on the internet? Do the people that made the videos want you to pick them apart and define things by them? Videos are a showcase of skill, unless possibly they are tutorials. When people train they train, when they do parkour they do parkour, when they make videos they are showing their skills... what are you still going on about this crap for?

[Rafe]

As far as efficiency goes. THAT IS THE ENTIRE ISSUE!!!!!! If efficiency didn't have to be maintained then flips and spins would be common place in parkour. 

That like saying that if defeating your opponent wasn't an issue in MMA flips and spins would be common place. It misses the whole damn point. There is no parkour outside of efficiency and speed. Efficiency isn't a restriction its the core of the whole discipline if its not the goal of your practice what you do is not in any way parkour, its not modified parkour, its not parkour + its just something else entirely. As long as you fail to accept this simple fact your going to continue to misunderstand parkour, piss of people who practice parkour and collect smites left and right.

Nobody has any problem with you doing what you do flips, spin, splits vaults, musically fart whatever. Your free to do what you like, but if you call it parkour your spreading misunderstanding.

[button]

STrue, everyone can do their own thing but I want my actions to have a philosophy and to not be without meaning. If I just "did my own thing" as button puts it then I am only doing random nonsense. I am doing a modified version of parkour called either Freestyle Parkour or Freerunning. I choose the first. I see a lot of people doing this and call it goofing off. I take my actions seriously and I take my training seriously. There is a category for it and that is what I do. I will never just pass it off as nonsense.

I never said that adding flips and parkour movements together was nonsense, and I didn't imply you didn't take it seriously. Re-read what I said. My point was that some people can simply accept parkour & acrobatics are two seperate things, but some people have trouble accepting this and need a blanket name for what they do.

I only point out Freestyle movement amongst "purists" not to point fingers but to show that they are doing exactly what they tell me is wrong and then say "that I don't know what pk is."  I am pointing out those instances to show you we train, play, practise, and all that the same but that you refuse to accept that when you flip in your run that it is not part of this modified parkour. Every time people flip and spin on a pk run they are fueling this modified parkour. Yes, I admit it is not the original pk created by Belle but Everyone who has ever done a flip or spin mid-run has a hand a creating this modified parkour. It's just that I choose to accept this change where as most people do it but not accept it and I can not sit back and just watch that occur without commenting on it

See, the thing is, there's no doubt about that someones taken parkour as an inspiration and used it to create something else - but it's not 'modified parkour'. It's taking parkour movements and adding something else to them, it's not taking parkour and adding something. This is why I object to the name 'freestle parkour', and why many people will tell you you don't understand parkour, because the term 'freestyle' is based upon a defintion via the physical movements, but parkour is defined by intent, not moves. It's defined by a certain intent, and you can't have 'freestyle movement within the mindset of escaping or reaching' really, can you?

So, I think it's fair enough if people want to take common parkour movements and add inefficient movements to them to create something else, but you can't take parkour and add inefficient stuff to it, because it's no longer parkour in any form.

[Mark Toorock]

Efficiency isn't a restriction its the core of the whole discipline if its not the goal of your practice what you do is not in any way parkour, its not modified parkour, its not parkour + its just something else entirely. As long as you fail to accept this simple fact your going to continue to misunderstand parkour

Bang!! Right on the nose.

Deft, you failed to answer a question of mine before, I'm going to ask you now not to reply to other people in this thread, because frankly you are taking away the usefulnees and prupose of this thread. If you want to "defend" Freestyle Parkour, make your own thread for it

Now, if you were in a race, would you add an unnessecary movement?

This is a perfect embodiment of what Faelcind is saying, you can't add extra movement to a race and still have your pupose to be to get to the finish first. You can't add extra movmenet to Parkour and still have it be Parkour, Parkour is not "movements like this and that", parkour is getting their first.


Because by adding even a single flip or purposely adding an uneccesary movemnt, you are CHANGING the INTENT and parkour is defined by the intent of getting there fastest, PERIOD.

So, if you can add a flip or spin and tell me your intent is still to get there fastest, then I'll see your point, but you'd have a hard time logically proving to me that you're adding movement with the intent of getitng there fastest.

[SkyNative]

Very interesting stuff on here. Like others said I wait anxiously for word from Seb, because as the creator he has a right to define the term ("freerunning", although maybe not "parkour") Also I really like Faelcind's analogy..

That like saying that if defeating your opponent wasn't an issue in MMA flips and spins would be common place. It misses the whole damn point.

But Button's comment,

My point was that some people can simply accept parkour & acrobatics are two seperate things, but some people have trouble accepting this and need a blanket name for what they do.

While I agree there certainly needs to be a distinction and fully accept that, it would be very convenient, and save a world of time to have a term that means the combination of acrobatics and parkour movements, like "Freerunning." Otherwise whenever someone asks what you're doing you have to go over this entire debate again with all it's fine points to be clear and correct; explaining as Faelcind said it, that"...free running takes the movements utilized in parkour deletes parkours mindset and again adds increased acrobatic/aesthetic elements." I would prefer to describe what Im doing and not have to refer to Parkour, or Parkour movement at all. Unless of course I am doing parkour, then I would be grateful to explain it and spread the accurate word.

As for all this...

Going back to a very good post, someone said that Sebs definition is "an english word for parkour", but Seb explains parkour differently than david. I think Sebs intention matches our perception of Free-running, as it allows things like acrobatics thrown in the mix, but i dont think it can be simplified down to freerunning=parkour. Yes, i would talk to seb more, and im not comming to any conclusions just yet, but it sounds like Seb has other meanings for parkour as if he felt the need to 'expand' on the definition.

Im gonna say for now, that free-running means what its always meant to most of us. On paper, Seb may not agree, but go out and train with seb, things might fall into place a little smoother. (but i cant be sure of that, unless i actually do go train with seb  Wink )

- Skipper

I allready new seb said that free running was no different then parkour, the issue is not whether he considered free running equivalent to parkour, its whether what he considers parkour is same thing described as parkour by David Belle, or rather the thing now commonly known as free running. From reading his site the later option is what appears to be true. Good luck in talking to him but I have my doubts about him offering clarity on the issue.

If Seb comes out and says that he accepts davids defination and that free running is simply a synonym for Parkour. Then I'll stop using it as to describe that other art. I'll call it street acro or yamakasi or L'art du deplacement there are plenty of names out there for it. Right now I feel that given the information out there free running is the most convenient and logical title for the art.

- Faelcind

A very fair point, Seb could be saying "Freerunning is just another word for Parkour, you know, flipsand spins and shit"

- M2

lol, isnt that what i said?

but i was just reviving what someone else said earlier.

- Skipper

That's the line of reasoning I tried to describe in my first post. Anyways, I guess it's a stalemate until we get more info from Seb, not to kill the discussion or anything. 
 
PS. I wont comment of Deft.
PPS. Is it technically "Freerunning" "Free-running" or "Free Running" ? Parkour.com uses both the second and third. I prefer the 1st though. Hey! Maybe that's how we can justify creating a new meaning for it!! lol. jk
PPPS. "Street Circus" Heelarious!! 

[Gareth EE Field]

Try looking at this as the classic debate: objectivism vs. relativism. Objectivists would say that freerunning is just a word for a concept, and it doesn't mean anything different just because people think it does. Relativists would say that people thinking that freerunning is different makes it something else by default.

I liked Derride, but I thought his arguements were a prank on ... well everyone. Objectivism just seems to win, in my mind.

[Mark Toorock]

Twicthkid, next time, could you dumb it down for me a bit?


From Skynative:

While I agree there certainly needs to be a distinction and fully accept that, it would be very convenient, and save a world of time to have a term that means the combination of acrobatics and parkour movements, like "Freerunning." Otherwise whenever someone asks what you're doing you have to go over this entire debate again with all it's fine points to be clear and correct; explaining as Faelcind said it, that"...free running takes the movements utilized in parkour deletes parkours mindset and again adds increased acrobatic/aesthetic elements." I would prefer to describe what Im doing and not have to refer to Parkour, or Parkour movement at all. Unless of course I am doing parkour, then I would be grateful to explain it and spread the accurate word.

That's exactly why I want to clarify this. Just as I once asked for a definition of Parkour (which some people said was pointless and useless until DB and PAWA made a definiton, then it became a very good idea )

[Deft]

Ok. I just read everyone's post and past post about this isue and have been spinning my wheels a lot on this. I have come to the conclusion that there is truth coming from the most of you. I see how I am wrong (but still feel correct on some issues) but none the less, I am admiting defeat. I still feel that the majority of the people on this site and the people who practise parkour as a whole can constitantly train parkour and whatever they want. From now on I will abandon the term Freestyle Parkour. From now on I will just call it Parkour and assumse that when I flip or whatever non-efficient move I happen to do that you all will understand that what I am doing is parkour except for the few seconds of my freestylistic movements.

[Tyson Cecka]

Congrats Deft, but rather than convincing you with words, go outside keeping what M2 has said in mind (purpose, speed etc.) and do some parkour runs. Once you experience the difference you will be able to figure this out for yourself without the combined whole of APK trying to "defeat" you

[button]

Deft, that's just earned you +19 karma. Nice one for being mature about it. 

[Mark Toorock]

Deft, you have been reborn. I have set your Karma to +1. I don't like to remove negative Karma, as I feel it should be hard to work off, but you have shown wilingness to listen and learn, and this is one of life's most valuable lessons.

Please don't see it as defeat. Consider that you may have been right, or you may have been wrong, but either way, by being open to the opinions of others, you have won, not lost.

As the others said, try a run for the purpose of getting somewhere in a hurry, or as I do (sometimes), try a run for no reason other than to run, have no thought when you come to a rail, see what happens. In this there is a learning experience.

Then, when you decide to do flips or tricks, enjoy it! Have fun! Go big! But realize that you are doing this by choice, and that your main goal is other than parkour at those times.

Now back to our regularly scheduled arguing

I have emailed both Sebastien and Joss, asking both for some clarification that may help put some finality on what  Freerunning  is.

[Skipper]

it would be funny if Joss were to happily explain it in full detail. Whereas everyone on .net said its not their business and you shouldnt ask pawa to so such a thing because it has nothing to do with parkour. Maybe they just didnt see the real question, who knows, but hopefully we get some good answers so we arent stepping on anyone's toes in the future.

and deft, congrats. youve earned all that karma. now invest it properly 

[Sam Slater]

I just went through this entire topic and I have read and re-read these definitions that are presented and I wanted to pose a question.

I agree that there must be a certain mindset that is had by persons who practice Parkour.  This I do not deny.  I do not however see this mindset in the definitions of Parkour.  Parkour seems to constantly be defined as performing a series of motions that will quickly maneuver the individual from A to B.

Sebastian's definition of Freerunning seems to be an attempt to define a mindset or a discipline that has it's foundations in the practice of Parkour.  When he says "Free your mind, Run over the world", I interpret that as saying that by practicing Parkour, you can reinvent the way you view your surroundings.

I am in no way saying that this is how the term is commonly used.  I am simply attempting to use the response that he has already given M2 to attempt to understand his logic. 

As a result, I find that this is almost how I use the term Freerunning.  I see it as a mindset that uses Parkour as a means to express said mindset, by unconventionally move from point to point through an environment that would otherwise have you move in a less direct manner.  It would seem that in order to further the notion of personal expression and freedom of thought, that the inclusion of acrobatics into this practice must be seen as conducive in some manner.  So yes, I see Freerun as Parkour with acrobatics, however as I am inclined to follow definitions from the person credited to have coined the phrase, I also include the mindset behind that practice. (Subsequently I think that this is what Deft is looking for, as it defines a mindset, however it does not restrict the practitioner to simply Parkour)

I would however like to see some quote from Belle defining parkour as not just physical actions.  The definition that he has created is very unappealing, in my opinion, as it does not, so far as I can tell.  I have hear and read that the practice of Parkour carries over into other areas of your life so that you are always looking to overcome obstacles in your way, however that is a result of the physical and not part of the definition.  (I suppose my martial arts background has me looking for him to create a system similar to what Foucan has where Parkour is either redefined as a means to an end, or where is part of a specific "way" that one is striving for.  Yes, I know that this "way" is there, however if he does not define it then situations such as this can and do arise)

Aside
This is me simply finding the need to type my thoughts on some notions brought up in this thread.  I have to warn those who dare to read on that there will more than likely be no resolution to this discussion found in the following.  You have been warned

In a response to the "is there a difference ..." question, I have to agree that common necessity of a word that combines the practice of acrobatics and Parkour have changed Freerunning to mean just that.  Now I know that people may say that simply changing the meaning of something in common language does not make what you have done is correct.  This logic is true with statements or notions, however with language it is the case that it is almost impossible to keep meanings from changing.  Languages are used to convey notions or describe things.  What seems to be the problem here is that the community cannot agree on a common language (which I am sure is M2's reason for this topic).  So how do we come to the concensus on what means what.  I can see three options:

1:  Defer judgment and definition to a higher authority - This seems to have been M2's initial attempt.  The problem that exists is that the current authority is ignorant of the scope of their judgement and wishes to take the path of rejecting the notion that there is an issue that needs to be resolved. 

2:  Consensus of the masses -  This very democratic approach seems to be where this thread is heading.  If a majority seems to use a term a certain way, then that is the way the term shall be used.  The problem that I am sure will arise with this is that people, despite the fact that they live in a system of government that is run this way, are so wrapped up in personal freedom that they will reject any attempt at creating definitions that are not the same as their own despite the will of the majority.

3:  Abandon new terminology - It is always an option to revert to more formal use of a common language to describe actions in more detail to avoid confusion.  For example, instead of using the term "Parkour" simply say that you are practicing a method of moving through an environment to quickly traverse a set distance from point to point.  The problem with this is that we are always in search of a way of communicating more efficiently, and as such spouting definitions for everything would be tedious.

Where does that leave the debate?  As of now, nowhere.  As most of us did when the "what is parkour" debate first erupted over on UF, we will have to wait and hope that this higher authority will save us from our dilemma.  I hope that you receive a productive response from Sebastian M2, as it would seem that without clarification from him, this topic could be for naught.

[LockDown]

This debate is very interesting...
from my point of view, parkour is already defined by PAWA in a mindset type way. by saying that parkour is getting from A to B in the fastest way with the human body only... free-running, meant as a synonym for parkour but not, is different to me because Sebastian the one credited with making the term explains parkour in a separate way. making the term, free-running, a different discipline. one that is more open allowing acrobatics and going back on yourself and anything else up to the practitioner.

[Matthew Lee Willis]

I will be touching on things that have or might have already been said or announced but since I am just now reading this whole thread for the first time I am going to go ahead and give my opinion.  After hearing about how free running was something that was suppost to just help Americanize the sport I have a few views on the term.

First of all.  Even though it might have originally made since as just something to explain parkour it has become its own term.  Independent of what parkour originally started as.  I even thought that there was a break away from Seb and David because of the definition of these terms.  I might have been wrong in this but it is what I have seen from much of my research.

On another note the fact that Deft and I have been talking about this non conformity that has been happening with the community is ridiculous. When I first started the rant about Freestyle parkour back in who knows when...one of my original thoughts was the fact that I thought that FREESTYLE could not be taken out of the community.  Well, I was wrong.  I don't hear the term any more and I see everyone moving toward a Utopian consideration of the true meaning of parkour.

A while back Deft and I had both argued about this hypocrisy of terms when "training."  We did not like the way that you could move back and forth from efficiency to non efficiency.  So this is why we stuck to our guns.  One day only following the basic movements of David Bell and its philosophy and the other days moving with this freestyle aspect.  We both very much understood what parkour had represented and it effect on what we had kept up with. (the demoralization of its name)

Unknown to some of you our little (62 members) group here in Texas has been getting stronger and stronger.  With the news of interviews from many different television stations and the possibility of a nation wide chain actually contacting me on putting together a tutorial about parkour and its philosophies.  Deft and I have decided to move back from this term that we so HEART-LY debated to try and be more centralized with where the true movement of parkour was going.  So today too I will be stepping away from this term that has such negative connotations from its formation.

I appreciate all that who have been pointed enough to argue with us and discuss and to shove us around even a little and tell us that this term was never going to survive.  So with us this word will die.  And to use someone Else's terms...we will be reborn again to do true parkour and to do training.  With all of our emphases on parkour and its philosophy.

[Mark Toorock]

MLW, I have DOUBLED your smites for just being a copycat of Deft.


Just kidding, I'll "reboot" you as well.

I'm happy you two have come to this decision, I hope it is because of true understandning and not conformity. Understanding is great, conformity sucks

Disciple: Holy Book!! Now I know what is going to put me to sleep tonight Will read & respond later

[Rafe]

Congrats to MLW and deft for coming over from the dark side  . Seriously though I thought this debate was one of those that would never see resolution simply the hardening of sentiment on both sides. Regardless of won or lost, I think respect is in order for being able to be open minded and see a different veiwpoint. Thats an applaud for both of you. I hope that dedicating your practice to the core ideals of parkour will impart as much meaning to your practice as it has to mine.

[Skipper]

MLW, I have DOUBLED your smites for just being a copycat of Deft.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

I hope you two will begin to gain all the knowledge possible now that the ears are open! welcome 

[Gareth EE Field]

I still like Rob's (DJ Hangman's) idea of what to do with the situation.

We may not be actually capable of coming up what parkour IS, so let's come up with parkour IS NOT. As in: eating a sandwich is not parkour. Stabbing myself with a fork is not parkour. Tripping on acid is not parkour.





JK, this was supposed to be humorous, please don't say that this is just another flips are not parkour thing ...