Author Topic: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?  (Read 26433 times)

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2006, 08:03:32 AM »
Deft, I'm not going to smite you, and I don't think other's should either as you're making a very civilized post of your thoughts.

I will address a couple of points; where you say in all caps it "IS PARKOUR" ... this is the very heart of the problem. It IS NOT PARKOUR.

I will give you the simpliest definition of parkour that I can that I feel maintains accuracy.
Parkour is getting somewhere as fast as humanly possible.

Nowhere in there is there room for "Style", "Extra movement by choice", "Freedom", "Philosophy", "Tricks" or anything else, except moving quickly with a purpose of reaching a destination (for a more complete ans accurate definiton we must add using only the human body).

Until you understnad this basic premise of Parkour, the majority of people will not agree with you.

Now, you say that Dispersion is "called a parkour video so that it could be sold" ... so far, I've given away almost 2X as many as I've charged for, and on the ones I do charge, there is an average "profit" of about .20 out of the three dollars. My pont here is that the video IS NOT for SALE. It is available for free in two formats on this site. Only if someone wants it on a physical DVD sent to them in the MAIL do they have to PAY to COVER the COST of sending them a DVD. So please, stop saying that (yes, you've said it before now).

Secondly, it is stated as a video that contains "Mosty Parkour Movement" on Wikipedia, which is where more than 2,500 of the 4,000 people to download it have seen it.

The ONLY video which states it was done to show Parkour is "Timeless".

The other videos show people doing parkour and other things ... much like David Belle's videos where he is in a gym practicing acrobatics, martial arts, or even hitting a punching bag. These things are not Parkour, but they are in a video. That doesn't mean that David Belle does "Freestyle Parkour" ... it means that he makes videos with more than "just" parkour in them.

I agree that this could be misleading to some,but that's the way it is. So, you have to take the given definition of Parkour from PAWA, and then determine yourself when someone does something in a video that is outside of that.

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Offline Deft

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2006, 09:15:32 AM »
When I mentioned aboup Disp. being sold I was not putting a negative connotation on that.The reason I commented on that is becasue when people post vids on here in the pic and vid thread is primarily for a community of traceurs. We are in the KNOW (even if we disagree on some isues) We know what's up. When people make a professional grade film that can be bought by anyone, obviously considerably more eyes will view that than a video posted here till it expires and/or is shoved to the bottom of the line by time.

I feel when making a "little training video" there is little need to defend all of your actions, but if you are appealing to a larger audience (including a non-traceur audience) and making a buck or two that clarity MUST be maintained.
I don't know about Wikipedia and what it says. All I know is what I got from this site.
(I am not aginst you making money off promoting health and activity in a positive manner that doesn't hurt or steal from anyone. Keep it up! I know that in a matter of time you all wil be making more than chump change)

Quote M2-" will address a couple of points; where you say in all caps it "IS PARKOUR" ... this is the very heart of the problem. It IS NOT PARKOUR."

OK I can see your point. I feel Parkour and Freerunning/Freestyle Parkour are brothers (if not twins) and that because of the "dire efficiency" issue they are forced to sit in the opposite sides of the room and act like strangers. They are identical twins save for the fact of the dire efficiency issue. What I am getting at is that Freerunning/Freestyle PK is definantly a branch that came from the tree of Parkour. I feel that by calling it Freerunning or Freestyle you are denying ANY ties to Parkour.  I feel is Definantly the case which is also why I see so many people (especially those who bash Freestyle) doing the same movements. A while ago I came up with the phrase closet freestylists. I believe this came from my confusion from when I see people point their finger and say "flips are not parkour" and then there is a flip in THAT video (and there might be a slilly discalimer) then they do it again in another video without a disclaimer. I feel that is the essence of Closet Freestylism and that it shows how they are both alive and part of the parkour world.

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Offline Asa Liebmann

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2006, 09:39:48 AM »
Quote
They are identical twins save for the fact of the dire efficiency issue

Just like you and I are identical twins save for the fact that we have different parents?

Sorry, but I think that calling two so fundamentaly different things identical is way off.

And as for this "closet freestyle" business, you are once again way off target. You are apparently under the mistaken assumption that traceurs profess to do nothing but parkour. Because a traceur does a flip, or goes on a date, or does the laundry, does this make him or her a closet gymnast, lover, or launderer?

When you understand what Parkour is, you will understand what Parkour isn't.

Offline Deft

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2006, 10:19:29 AM »
Asa- we have talked about this before. NOt everyone who does a flip is a closet freestylist. IF you flip on a regular basis then go to the boards and prech against them THEN you might be a closet freestylist. I restated this to shed light on possible concufions when people's voices are raised against Freetsyle/Freerunning but their actions are congruent with Freestyle. Where is it exactly that I am "way off target"

Asa- Again all you really did was claim that I don't know what parkour withouttelling me why. Youi didn't even hit on my points or throw out any of your own. M2 replied to my post and responded to what I mentioned. He was helping the situation, you are not. I would like to continue this with someone who is actually helpful. All you are doing is jumping in, saying I am wrong with a quick jab, then flee. If you think I am wrong, try to correct me not just  say "you are way off."

(for others- I feel Asa loves to attack my and my posts for some reason but he never really hits on my issues and usually ends by saying something like "you don't understand what parkour is" because my concept is not like his and then leave it at that which isn't helpful at all.)

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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2006, 10:59:42 AM »
Deft,
Thanks for clearing up what you meant about "for sale, etc.".

I believe I see another area of contention ...
Quote
when people's voices are raised against Freestyle/Freerunning but their actions are congruent with Freestyle.

I think you possibly take two things the wrong way;
1. People "arguing" about Freerunning ... they are not necessarily against it!!
I discuss the differences all the time, but I fully support people that choose this activity!! Look at the major story on APK for the last week (and will be for the next two weeks) ... Freerunning tour!! nowhere does it say (or have to "not parkour") and nowhere does it say this is bad!! The only point that people keep trying to impress to you (and I impress this to everyone) is they there is a difference between the activity you are calling Freerunning and the activity that is Parkour.  Yes, many "purists" put some negative connotation on Freerunning. I disagree 100%. I think they feel negative BECAUSE of the misunderstandings and confusion between freerunning and Parkour, and they are being protective of Parkour.
2. People arguing about "Freestyle Parkour"  there, it is a different story, it is the very term that bothers us, I think my above definition of parkour helps you to see why it is simply an oxymoron, again, no part of Parkour is freedom, creativity, extra movement, there is choice, but only if that choice is what you feel is the fastest way to get somewhere.

So, in my opinion - Parkour - about moving somewhere quickly using only the human body
Freerunning - coined by Seb to originally mean the exact same as parkour, but no used by most people to describe an activity that is "Free Running", running with other movements, acrobatics, style, etc added to it whether it be for fun, training the body, or demonstration purposes.
Freestyle Parkour - meaningless oxymoron that displays a lack of understanding of Parkour

I agree with you that the first two have some relation, and that people who do one may have an affinity for the other. How they are linked is hard to say, and exactly the point of my post on PAWA and on here.

I think that your understanding of it is a perfect example of why we need clarification. PAWA doesn't seem to want to give that clarification, so I am hoping to use this conversation to do that.

I will also be hoefully speaking to Sebastien more. Frankly, his answer throws a wrench in the works as far as I'm concerned, it would be much easier if "Freerunning" could now mean what most people use it as,however his answer didn't really indicate that, and I feel it is fair that we give him the same respect / credit for Freerunning as we do to David Belle for Parkour.
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Offline Skipper

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2006, 11:30:49 AM »
Going back to a very good post, someone said that Sebs definition is "an english word for parkour", but Seb explains parkour differently than david. I think Sebs intention matches our perception of Free-running, as it allows things like acrobatics thrown in the mix, but i dont think it can be simplified down to freerunning=parkour. Yes, i would talk to seb more, and im not comming to any conclusions just yet, but it sounds like Seb has other meanings for parkour as if he felt the need to 'expand' on the definition.

Im gonna say for now, that free-running means what its always meant to most of us. On paper, Seb may not agree, but go out and train with seb, things might fall into place a little smoother. (but i cant be sure of that, unless i actually do go train with seb  ;) )

Offline Deft

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2006, 11:59:06 AM »
M2- You always give me much to consider and I appreciate that.

I use the term Freestyle Parkour over Freerunning because I feel it best describes my actions. I realize that others see it as a contradiction or a oxymoron. I am not calling it Parkour With Whatever I Want. I admit it is not the same as "true" parkour but it holds true to prakour's teachings with a slight modification of flips and spins. (This modification is practised by most ((practically all)) but accepted by only a few) We have all seen the clip of Belle doing a backflip and say this is not parkour but he does not say what it is. If he gave it a perticular name I would call it such. BUt without that I am left with only what I can verify. That being Parkour and Parkour with the allance of Freedom of Style (not necessairly ANY movement in the world. Flow is still the focus) The best term I have found to label this is Freestyle Parkour. I'm sorry that it kills me that you want to take the Parkour out of my title. Parkour is why I go out and run. It is why I have learned to flip. It have taught me about flow and efficiency.  Parkour brought it to me and to eliminate that from my title I feel is to disrespect all that I have been picking up along THE WAY <--- capitols mean in reference to the parkour way.

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Offline Bachelarius

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2006, 12:34:06 PM »
Well, I wouldn't say flow is the focus, more fluidity. I.e. you focus more on doing smooth, fluid motions right? You just don't see the need to go all out with the efficincy side of things.

What you fail to realise is the sheer amount of difference there is between an efficient and efficient run.

When we do parkour, we have no need to nominate a movement before we do it. That seems to be the toughest thing for people to understand because most people are so used to training on the normal urban architecture (geometric walls, low rails etc). But go out to a place with wierd architecture or go out to a forrest and then just run through there. Only then will you realise why parkour is the way it is. In that terrain you wont be able to use a technique on that obstacle because it's of such a wierd shape and it requires you to bend in a wierd direction to get past a certain point. And you can't even think of doing a trick because you're concentrating so much on that wierd shape.

You're just running and that's it. Is that really so similar to what you're describing? Do you think it feels the same as your art? Because to me the differences are huge and it surprises me that people can even concider them similar...

[edit] I think this post is very off topic though, Looking forward to seeing what you find out from Seb :) [/edit]
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 12:36:24 PM by Bachelarius »
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Offline Skipper

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2006, 12:42:44 PM »
Bach, i know exactly what youre talking about. We had an awesome jam at a national park out here. We probably spent 2 hours on the rocks alone and i wasnt counting, but i figure i did about 2 or 3 named techniques (saut de chat, saut de bras, etc) but the rest was just improv. It really sets youre mind back and you might not be as good as you think you are after a jam like that, but it also gives you a real estimation of where you are at with parkour skills.

I did a write up about it, but i think its long gone by now. it talked about what you mentioned.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2006, 12:48:31 PM »
Quote
it holds true to prakour's teachings with a slight modification of flips and spins

Again, herein lies the problem.

Take my above definiton of parkour, "to get somewhere as quickly as possible"

now, please Deft, explain to me how adding a flip to that "holds true to the teachings" at all?

you can't ad a spin to something defined by directness without changing the very basis of it!!

in a race, would you go purposely out of your way? Would you add additional movement?


If you can exaplin to me how and why you would, then maybe I can see your point.
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Offline button

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2006, 12:49:09 PM »
This is off topic, but I feel I have to say this - Deft, I find it really annoying that you say other people are 'closet freestylers' or whatever term you use. Fair enough you don't understand parkour enough to understand it's impossible to have a freestyle parkour, but why bring others down to your level? Perhaps they're just smart enough to realise they can do their own thing, without needing a name for it to give themselves 'validation'. Does it not occur to you that maybe you have -28 karma because you assume stuff about people you don't know, and tar them with the same brush as yourself?


EDIT: skipper & m2 posted while I was typing. my points still hold true though. http://www.t101.renditionsofreality.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=170 & scroll to the bottom for my thoughts on 'evolved parkour' and why spins & shit are fundamental change in the nature of the art, and why such a change cannot be instigated by newbies such as you, me, bach, skipper, m2, etc...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 12:52:35 PM by button »

Offline Rafe

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2006, 12:52:36 PM »
M2- You always give me much to consider and I appreciate that.

) We have all seen the clip of Belle doing a backflip and say this is not parkour but he does not say what it is. If he gave it a perticular name I would call it such. BUt without that I am left with only what I can verify. That being Parkour and Parkour with the allance of Freedom of Style (not necessairly ANY movement in the world. Flow is still the focus) The best term I have found to label this is Freestyle Parkour

If you want to call what you do by the name david uses, I'll give you two options. David calls the flipping tricking that he does acrobatics he trains with cryrill raffaelli who calls what he does street acrobatics.  He specifically asked if your just doing acrobatics in the street don't call it parkour.

He also offered a synonym for FRPK he called it street circus. I don't think anyone would have problem if you used that either.
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Offline ERI104

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2006, 01:02:25 PM »
REPLY TO SKIPPS POST

Same thing happend with me when i went pking with gear, random, wolf, and akh in the mountians/river ...we spent 80% of the time pking on rocks and hanging out and stuff. it was alot of fun and it actually gave me insite to what IS and IS NOT parkour :D. Did you go to the same place?

REPLY TO FAELCINDS POST

haha when i wanted to start a pk crew i wanted to call it "city flow circus" i guess it would be appropriate considering at the time i wanted to do flips also lol.

I think we should make it offical that street acrobatics be called "street circusing"  ;)
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things people have called parkour
1) popcorn
2) park whore
3) par four
4) pa coop

Offline Skipper

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2006, 01:10:41 PM »
If we call it street circus, we would AGAIN have to answer to david belle as the creator! hahahha is there anything that man cant own?!??!
  ;)

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2006, 01:17:22 PM »
There's always the Beale Street Flippers ... those guys are awesome!!!

Now, I think Butto'ns statement is fair, Deft, you don't do yourself favors by talking about other people or by labelling them, for now, can we please just leave tat out of this? I think you'll find if you answer my points and we reach a resolution that alot of the other things won't be so important anymore.

As for Bach and Faelcinds discussion, I think the point is very pertinent to this conversation ... yes, it is called Acrobatics ... but is there any relation when acrobatics is mixed into Freerunning, between that activity and Parkour? which really is my original question.
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Offline Rafe

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2006, 01:25:16 PM »
So your question is whether free running can be considered related to parkour m2? Haven't you allready stated that believe that it is so?

In any event, I will go ahead and agree and say yes free running is related to parkour, in the same way the tricking is related to martial arts. Just as tricking takes the movements of martial arts deletes its mindset increase the level of acrobatics in the MA movements and adds other acrobatic elements. So free running takes the movements utilized in parkour deletes parkours mindset and again adds increased acrobatic/aesthetic elements.
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2006, 01:41:09 PM »
Faelcind, I personally agree. I'm not sure if everyoe is ready to take your and my word for it though. This is why I wanted an answer from PAWA, but now am simply seeking a concensus among this community, which I feel is all I can do.

Now, we have Seb saying that this isn't what Freerunning is (or at least not really saying it) so I think I need to talk to him more, or else what you feel and what I feel is correct goes out the window, because the creator of the term says it's something different.
 
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Offline Rafe

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2006, 02:00:37 PM »
I allready new seb said that free running was no different then parkour, the issue is not whether he considered free running equivalent to parkour, its whether what he considers parkour is same thing described as parkour by David Belle, or rather the thing now commonly known as free running. From reading his site the later option is what appears to be true. Good luck in talking to him but I have my doubts about him offering clarity on the issue.

If Seb comes out and says that he accepts davids defination and that free running is simply a synonym for Parkour. Then I'll stop using it as to describe that other art. I'll call it street acro or yamakasi or L'art du deplacement there are plenty of names out there for it. Right now I feel that given the information out there free running is the most convenient and logical title for the art.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 02:03:38 PM by Faelcind »
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2006, 02:04:15 PM »
A very fair point, Seb could be saying "Freerunning is just another word for Parkour, you know, flipsand spins and shit" :)

Hopefully I can talk with him and get an answers that does clarify some things for us.
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Offline Skipper

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Re: Is Freerunning Different than Parkour?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2006, 02:07:28 PM »
lol, isnt that what i said?

but i was just reviving what someone else said earlier.