Author Topic: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....  (Read 14601 times)

Offline Bret Coon

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2009, 05:56:17 PM »
please tell me why you think their is no link here is something taken from wikipedia that supports what i believe

Quote
National Cancer Institute

In 2006, the US National Cancer Institute concluded in a study of over 470,000 men and women aged 50 to 69 that there was no statistically significant link between aspartame consumption and leukemias, lymphomas or brain tumors.[66] The study compared how much of 4 types of aspartame-sweetened beverages the subjects said they had drunk in 1995 or 1996 to how likely they were to have developed these cancers during the following five years.[67] This conclusion was questioned in letters to the editors[68][69] which pointed out that the study did not consider non-beverage consumption of aspartame, did not estimate the subjects' long-term use of aspartame, and did not include any subjects who had consumed aspartame since childhood (as the subjects were all over 49 and aspartame beverages had only been on the market for 15 years). The letters concluded that the study design was inappropriate to test the stated hypothesis.

and here is the link i got it from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame_controversy


please read the whole thing and do more research before you jump on what i believe 

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2009, 06:11:19 PM »
please read the whole thing and do more research before you jump on what i believe 

Little do you know what you have just done...

My knowledge of asparteme is such that I know that the data is inconclusive - at best.  But tombb knows much more on the topic, im sure....and you are about to find out how much more that is... :P

*gets a tub of popcorn*

Offline Shawn Meilicke

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2009, 06:31:52 PM »
please read the whole thing and do more research before you jump on what i believe 

Little do you know what you have just done...

My knowledge of asparteme is such that I know that the data is inconclusive - at best.  But tombb knows much more on the topic, im sure....and you are about to find out how much more that is... :P

*gets a tub of popcorn*

i know htis doesnt add to the convo but:
LMAO
+1 for making me LOL
"Though all the world may hate us, we are named.
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Offline Bret Coon

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2009, 08:29:18 PM »
now i did not say that he didn't know more than i do, but i believe what i believe and since the data was inconclusive id like to be aware that it might have to do with chemical reactions with other things that you consume with the aspartame and i did not say humans in my first post i sad small animals but like i said i do not have the time or the patience to do the research at this moment but when i get a spare moment i will...

i want him to give me more information on this topic and i love to debate, i think i can be a politician because i argue so much, but this is just my opinion that the first constitutional amendment right gives me the freedom to say

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2009, 08:36:04 PM »
oh don't worry - you can debate all you like -- trust me, just wait :P

Offline tombb

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2009, 11:20:43 PM »
please tell me why you think their is no link here is something taken from wikipedia that supports what i believe

Quote
National Cancer Institute

In 2006, the US National Cancer Institute concluded in a study of over 470,000 men and women aged 50 to 69 that there was no statistically significant link between aspartame consumption and leukemias, lymphomas or brain tumors.[66] The study compared how much of 4 types of aspartame-sweetened beverages the subjects said they had drunk in 1995 or 1996 to how likely they were to have developed these cancers during the following five years.[67] This conclusion was questioned in letters to the editors[68][69] which pointed out that the study did not consider non-beverage consumption of aspartame, did not estimate the subjects' long-term use of aspartame, and did not include any subjects who had consumed aspartame since childhood (as the subjects were all over 49 and aspartame beverages had only been on the market for 15 years). The letters concluded that the study design was inappropriate to test the stated hypothesis.

and here is the link i got it from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame_controversy


please read the whole thing and do more research before you jump on what i believe 
I am not sure I see a logical argument here.
You have no proof backing up what you state, no actual reason to believe what you apparently really want to believe, and instead you show is a link that shows that there have been studies to even contradict your claims, but that they didn't measure all possible parameters, so they they might be inconclusive.

Now first of all, letters to the editor are a good tool for continued point-counterpoint between scientists, but the mere fact that another scientist points out strengths and weaknesses of a study (especially studies that look for correlations and statistics, or lack of correlation as in this case) doesn't automatically mean the opposite claim must be true.
The studies in question are all epidemiological to begin with, i.e., you look at statistics after the fact and try to draw some correlations. Those are always just more of a "let's look if there';s something there" type of study that could never fully prove or disprove conclusively anything anyways, but it makes a valid point especially in the absence of an effect.

What would be conclusive evidence for a cancer-causing hypothesis would be a specific, repeatable, dose-dependent effect with a known mechanism.
There are plenty of things like that (for example stuff like Benzopyrene ) which WILL always cause cancer at high enough doses in the lab, basically -every time-, and have a very specific and clear mechanism for actually doing so, like binding directly to DNA and introducing mutation errors at each binding site every time cells divide and attempt to copy DNA.
That's of course absolutely not the case for Aspartame. It doesn't have any known chemical reason why it should ever cause cancer, and you certainly can't give it to any animal in any way to cause 100% cancer formation like you could for other real well-known carcinogens.
The only study that suggested there could be a problem really is extremely weak scientifically. If you are not familiar with analyzing science you can see the explanation of why it's very poor science and inconclusive in the discussion of wiki, but if you can analyze the paper yourself look at the actual paper and you can see why it is at best inconclusive even ignoring the other problems like the fact that nobody has been able to replicate it (despite the fact that being able to prove such a claim would obviously make any lab or researcher famous). The survival curves of figure 1 are statistically the same for any dose including no dose at all, and are all over the place in terms of increasing dose not having increased effect.
You can see again the same problem in table2 and again look at the % of rats that had tumors, their data has again no trend, from their data you are actually LESS likely to have tumors if you eat aspartame at 3 of the 6 concentrations of aspartame than with no aspartame at all (so you would have as much/little right to say that aspartame prevents cancer as you would to say that it causes it, i.e., it's inconclusive), and again they are just random values and not dose dependent (btw, those rats are genetically predisposed to get tumors and cancer spontaneously at high rates, that's why the 35% of rats with tumors even without doing anything that causes cancer. If you used real rats from the wild you would be lucky to get even 1%).


To put it in simpler terms, let me give you an analogy to show you the disconnect in logic in your argument, with an analogy to something you might be less likely to just believe for no reason:

1) person B claims "Parkour or running in general causes cancer in small animals'
2) There is no evidence that running causes cancer, and no known reason or mechanism of why it should, but studies that actually show running -doesn't- cause cancer don't consider all the possible running situations in humans and can't completely disprove it... (after all a lot of people who got cancer did run at least once in their life...)
3) Therefore, running must cause cancer!

Hopefully you can see why point 3 doesn't follow from points 1 and 2.

And the conclusion you can draw from the wiki page on "aspartame controversy" is that there is no scientific reason to believe that aspartame has any negative health consequences, especially not cancer.

In terms of "people wanting to hide the truth" and similar arguments based on conspiracy or presumed ulterior motives of people, you should keep in mind that every side of a scientific question can have people that want you to believe one side regardless of the truth. The honey and sugar corporations have their own significant economic interests to protect just as much as the nutrasweet/aspartame or splenda producers do. That's why it's even more important that you don't just believe any claim that has no real basis in science and reality and avoid using these other considerations to draw conclusions (e.g., phrases like "what bigPharmaX or AppealToRebellionTargetY doesn't want you to know and therefore must be true" should be red flags that you need to really look carefully for evidence and science make sure they were really correctly interpreted) .... .
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 11:49:29 PM by tombb »

Offline Bret Coon

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2009, 03:22:47 AM »
this page links nutrasweet to aspartame please tell me why the are not link to aspartame if they do not sell it but i give you +1 for effort

also splenda is a clorinated artificial sweetner last time i check the clorinated part is bad for you because i know you cannot eat or drink bleach without harmful side effects

here is a study at duke university proving that splenda in male rats causes bad effects with could also lead to cancer in the future
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/15287390802328630

please if you have more information please list the links you got it from so i know where you get your information from
in my opinion the only kinds of food that should be consumed are pure organics with no processing and additives

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2009, 05:04:59 AM »
also splenda is a clorinated artificial sweetner last time i check the clorinated part is bad for you because i know you cannot eat or drink bleach without harmful side effects

You do realize chlorine is in drinking water...as well as in water you swim in which is swollowed quite a bit on accident by like 85% of the american population throughout the summer.  The point here is very weak, at best.

here is a study at duke university proving that splenda in male rats causes bad effects with could also lead to cancer in the future
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/15287390802328630

Did you read that study?  It has nothing to do with cancer.

The original study you posted, as well, was epidemiological, anyway -- and worthless.   Just because one study is worthless doesn't instantly prove that the opposing side is true.

In regards to the warnings for aspartame - it is totally legal to sell.  There is just a little warning saying that "Scientific studies prove a link to cancer" based on a set of relatively weak studies...and in the eyes of the law it is better to be safe than sorry.

Now, I don't doubt that there is an adverse effect to drinking/eating tons of splenda.  There is an adverse effect to eating tons of fresh meat, tons of fresh honey, tons of fresh water.  Anything taken out of moderation is going to produce an adverse effect.  The body is not meant to deal with extremes - it is meant to deal with moderation.  So in that regard, I am with you 100% of the way. 

So, I would say, don't drink diet cola because it is "doesn't have sugar" and don't drink regular cola because it  "doesn't have aspartame".  Just avoid both of them as much as possible unless you feel like treating yourself.

Offline tombb

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2009, 07:50:45 AM »
this page links nutrasweet to aspartame please tell me why the are not link to aspartame if they do not sell it but i give you +1 for effort

also splenda is a clorinated artificial sweetner last time i check the clorinated part is bad for you because i know you cannot eat or drink bleach without harmful side effects

here is a study at duke university proving that splenda in male rats causes bad effects with could also lead to cancer in the future
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/15287390802328630

please if you have more information please list the links you got it from so i know where you get your information from
in my opinion the only kinds of food that should be consumed are pure organics with no processing and additives
First off, consider each point one at a time instead of making this into a moving target. The new points you make are also wrong, as Chris already covered, but you should try to also recognize and understand why all your previous points were incorrect too.

Also, you seem to be confusing names and chemicals. Nutrasweet/aspartame are one thing (nutrasweet is the brand, aspartame the main chemical) and splenda/sucralose are a completely different thing (again splenda is the brand, and sucralose the sweetener in it).

Both are really quite harmless and with less health side-effects than 'real/natural' sugar or salt (which are fine in normal doses but happen to have a much stronger effect on the body and thus stronger side-effects when taken in excess).

In terms of chlorine, chlorine is an essential element in human biology, and is a completely different thing than bleach. In case you didn't realize it, the only reason why you can even absorb foods is because your body can use its chlorine stores to make hydrochloric acid (in our gastric juice). Chlorinated compounds are also a very important component of you sweat (the reason why it is a bit salty) and so many key biological functions and as you know normal salt or sea water contain salt which is sodium chloride. That's why you have chlorides supplementation in any decent multivitamin and multimineral pill for example.

Again the flaw in your logic is that you take an atom contained in something you don't like (say bleach) and then compare its properties to that of the whole or of anything else that also contains that atom. 
For example, Bleach also contains oxygen atoms, so by the same flawed logic you would conclude that you should stop breathing air since it also contains oxygen, and "last time you checked air is bad for you because you cannot breathe bleach without side effects..."

It is also clear you didn't read any of the posts in the middle of this same thread as many of these points were already made.

Offline Bret Coon

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2009, 11:58:33 AM »
well i thank you for the time you spent on this but id like to know more about the things in these things maybe you can post the links or the book name where you got your information from because ive been lied to by my parents obviously maybe they didnt know either

also bleach cleaner is not good for you if you drink it which i kind of learned the hard way as a child so i believed that chlorinated meant it had been bleached

another thing is their a difference in dark carbonated drinks than clear colored ones because i get sick when ever i drink the dark ones and the clear ones have no effect on me.

Offline tombb

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2009, 01:00:24 PM »
well i thank you for the time you spent on this but id like to know more about the things in these things maybe you can post the links or the book name where you got your information from because ive been lied to by my parents obviously maybe they didnt know either

also bleach cleaner is not good for you if you drink it which i kind of learned the hard way as a child so i believed that chlorinated meant it had been bleached

another thing is their a difference in dark carbonated drinks than clear colored ones because i get sick when ever i drink the dark ones and the clear ones have no effect on me.
I am glad you are open to learn more and improve your knowledge on things, that's the right attitude to have.

It's not so much about information or books only, it's mostly about understanding science and exercise logic all the times. So it's not so much that I have good information because I was lucky enough to read the right books for example... Every day we are all exposed to both good and bad information, that's inevitable. But they are not just a matter of opinion. If you understand something rather than just being indoctrinated to one opinion or another, you will be able to tell myths and hoaxes apart from solid facts.

For example, in school you learned math and geometry and you fully understood them, so if someone told you there are an infinite number of fractions between any two numbers, you would know it's true because you fully understand it. If someone later tells you that's not true, and that between the number 0 and 1 there are only 5 fractions, you would know that is false because you understand it, you can come up with many counterexamples etc. Same for logic, valid arguments, etc.
You should already have much of that information from school (basic chemistry, basic biology, physiology, logic, etc) but you have to understand them and practice applying that understanding in your everyday life.
You have to be able to ask yourself if something you read on the web or heard from your parents or fox news etc is really sound logic, and if all checks out, looking up things you are not familiar with (e.g., start with wikipedia entries as a good starting point) and actively searching BOTH sides of any argument and compare them using your best logic and understanding to see which one holds water, rather than just making it an issue of "belief" or just assuming what people tell you is true.

As I said, everybody is inevitably exposed to all sorts of false information and sometimes they don't realize it and pass it along even with the best intentions (so it's probably not that they are lying or anything), I get all the times chain emails from friends and family that are well known hoax (often with stories like bill gates giving you money or little kids with cancer that are not really true), and sometimes people just believe them too easily even with the best intentions...

So anyways, the bottom line is don't treat information as something you just blindly believe but rather something you have to process and believe only because you understand it. For example lot of people study physics and yet never use it to understand simple things like why the sky is blue and not transparent or another color, why lightning makes thunder claps, etc.


(as far as colored vs clear, you should find out for yourself what the difference is, maybe starting with making sure it's not psychological, with your own blind-test at home with a friend helping you maybe, and then figure out exactly which ingredient causes it if it is a real effect for you, you might just be allergic to something specific that also happens to only be in colored soda, maybe caffeine etc, although I think it would be fairly unlikely to be the case).

Offline Bret Coon

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2009, 02:21:45 PM »
i do not believe it is the caffeine because i do not get sick when i drink full throttle or monster energy drinks so it might be the syrup used in the ingredients

also the info i got from my parents came from a guy name Kevin Trudeau or something like that and i researched him, apparently this guy isn't all there with the right side of the law

i wish i could of learned that earlier before making myself look like a fool lol thank you for broadening my perspective on the 2 sweeteners 

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2009, 03:31:34 PM »
i wish i could of learned that earlier before making myself look like a fool lol thank you for broadening my perspective on the 2 sweeteners 

heh, don't worry that happens to the best of us...being put in your place is part of the learning process.

This is something many people can, and will, learn the hard way. The hard way means posting or speaking out in public and being put in your place brutally by someone who knows much more than you. When this happens to you, then my advice is to embrace the moment, be humbled and hit the gym/library to learn more so it doesn’t happen again.

Offline Bret Coon

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2009, 06:22:36 PM »
i like that +1 for both of you on that stuff yall posted

Offline BearMills

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2009, 09:28:50 AM »
hey guys i was watching the video on youtube recently and it made me think about what is going into my body. If you're like me getting over an addiction is near impossible.. and no i am not talking about smoking but I am talking about chocolate and other sweets...but back to the topic.. think as the fatty liquids./foods that go into your body essentially pours toxic waste into your stomach etc etc... The thought of toxic waste has really dug into my mind and has allowed me to abstain from these things.. Just thought I should share it with you guys because it has helped me a lot.



Alex
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Offline Shawn Meilicke

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #95 on: May 29, 2009, 10:10:41 AM »
"Though all the world may hate us, we are named.
The shadow overtake us, we are known
We're more than carbon and chemicals
Free will is ours and we can't let go
We are the image of the invisible"
-Thrice


1+1=10

Offline tombb

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #96 on: May 29, 2009, 09:18:14 PM »
something im sure we ALL didnt know, lol

http://health.yahoo.com/news/healthday/toomuchcolacancausemuscleproblems.html
It doesn't really cause it. I will say that drinking 7 liters of cola a day for 10 consecutive months is way too much, and yes if she stopped after 8 months of continuous 7liter a day of cola that patient would have been better off, or better yet stop at a glass every other day or less like most normal people...
But if you have a normal balanced diet, you still won't have any lack of potassium. The problem is that if you are drinking 7-9 liters a day of cola chances are you don't have a balanced diet in the first place. even eating a banana once a week would have been enough to avoid problems for those 3 people mentioned, and actually even drinking water can make you lose potassium faster, it's not just caffeine or nutrients.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #97 on: May 29, 2009, 09:57:16 PM »
I didn't read the article because it seemed pretty crappy right out of the gate (no offense)...

I did want to touch on one small thing, though..

... or better yet stop at a glass every other day or less like most normal people...

Do you really think a glass of soda every other day is the norm??  In my experience it is either soda as a main beverage or no soda at all (or so limited that it is not worth mentioning...like once every 6 months..)

i really don't think a glass every other day is the norm...

Offline tombb

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #98 on: May 29, 2009, 11:31:41 PM »
I didn't read the article because it seemed pretty crappy right out of the gate (no offense)...

I did want to touch on one small thing, though..

... or better yet stop at a glass every other day or less like most normal people...

Do you really think a glass of soda every other day is the norm??  In my experience it is either soda as a main beverage or no soda at all (or so limited that it is not worth mentioning...like once every 6 months..)

i really don't think a glass every other day is the norm...

Well I didn't say norm as in statistical average or median, I didn't take surveys or anything. I said what normal people (as opposed to someone who would drink 9 liters a day) would drink.

For example for me it's definitely not either none or a ton. For example sometimes if I go with friends to a cheap restaurant like subway etc, sometimes I feel like something different than water and I will get that, so it's definitely closer to at least a large glass a week sometimes, it just depends on circumstances and on what I feel like.

Most things are not taken only in huge excess or nothing at all, aside for maybe alchool and only after someone becomes an alchoolic or recovering alchoolic... And even for that there are plenty of people who just drink a glass of wine once a week if they have a nice fancy dinner where it fits in.

Granted sodas are conveniently available in can and in many places, but still it's hard to beat the convenience and value of completely free water vs expensive sodas.

Offline Shawn Meilicke

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Re: For those of you that still drink soft drinks....
« Reply #99 on: May 30, 2009, 07:40:52 AM »
well i know the article was kinda crappy, it was off of yahoo, i dont expect much from them, i was just reading this, went to check my email, then saw that link, skimmed over it, and then posted it in here
"Though all the world may hate us, we are named.
The shadow overtake us, we are known
We're more than carbon and chemicals
Free will is ours and we can't let go
We are the image of the invisible"
-Thrice


1+1=10