Author Topic: The Way-Back Machine  (Read 5243 times)

Offline Mark Toorock

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The Way-Back Machine
« on: January 25, 2006, 08:30:08 AM »
The web archive .org is a very cool thing, it has lots of pages form UF from WAY back in the day.

Here is an interesting post I made, it is a good way to see how my understanding of Parkour has changed.


Quote
M2rock
UF KREW
(12/7/03 9:44 am)
Reply  What is Parkour? Definitions and philosophies here!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Parkour seems to be such a broad and encompassing thing. Most people will agree that parkour can include a lot of things, and most people don't want to discriminate "what is not parkour"

I think that Parkour is a name we have given to the playing that we all like to do. It includes what I think everyone would agree is parkour, "using the environment as an obstacle course" as well as acrobatics, freedom of expression through motion, and to me, aspects of buildering fit in as well.


I think that skateboarding is not parkour, jackass is not parkour, throwing yourself off something high without thought or purpose is not parkour. Soap shoes are not parkour.

I think that "knowing the names of tricks" is not essential. Parkour is about movement, not necessarily definition of movement. I feel that names of moves simply help us to convey ideas to each other in words, and make it easier to break the elements of parkour into categories for practice and improvement.

Most importantly, parkour is fun. To me it is the ultimate way to get out agression, stress, fear, and energy. This provides a massive release and the ultimate high, freedom from definition. Not a fight against the system, but the decision to be my own master, to decide where and how I will go, and to express myself through motion. 


I particularly like the part about "not needing to know the names of tricks" ...
of course I am embarrased about the part of it "including acrobatics", sometime shortly after this post I learned better.

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Offline andi k

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2006, 08:43:03 AM »
i remember way back in the day,  when i was starting to praise 'true' parkour, flipless,  and when ive been even friendly. haha. long time ago ;)


nuff said.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2006, 08:49:11 AM »
you mean when you used to not be an asshole?
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Offline Skipper

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2006, 09:06:41 AM »
LOL, that was loooooooooooooooooooooooong before i ever even heard the word parkour!

Offline Michael Zernow

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2006, 09:10:36 AM »
I remember that time.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2006, 09:54:18 AM »
This one from about a year ago, remember that there was no PAWA definiton at this time, (I od'nt actually know if there was even a PAWA?)

I know that I use an anolgy here, but I feel it is a good description for Parkour, Parkour doesn't change, people's understanding of it changes.

Quote
M2rock
Seidojin

(2/1/05 5:10 am)
Reply
  Defining Parkour?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 OK, the first person to tell me this is a recurring topic is banned. Twice 


It seems like so many of the discussions on UF -both great discussions with well formed opinions and thoughtful arguments, and snappy threads with lots of he-said she-said stuff - come down to some way or another either wanting or not wanting a definition for Parkour.

I'm not here to tell anyone they are right or wrong, or that their reasons for wanting a definition or not wanting a definition are valid or not. I am a big believer in thinking things through and having your own reasons for believing in something.

That being said, I will still share my opinion with you, do as you please, however if you are going to argue, I am going to insist that it be in a civil and thoughtful manner. Argue the points, not the people.


I have heard many people (including myself) say that "As I go along my definition of Parkour Changes". This reminds me of two things;
1. Chess. As you go along, the game is exactly the same, 32 pieces, 64 squares, however the possibilities for a game are endless. My point here is that as you learn more of the possibilities, it is not the DEFINITION of chess that changes, it is your understanding that changes. 2. George Carlin "In Your own words" ... a skit where George talks about being asked to describe something "In his own words" and he says "Geroibleodok froightid readsitsh." ... He goes on to say how much easier it would be if he could use the same words as everyone else. It's very funny.Here my point is that we do have language to describe things, and I don't think each person having their very own definition of Parkour is helpful or useful.

I would say "Have your own understanding of Parkour, but let's settle on some basic definition"

If your martial arts teacher told you "This is my version of Kung Fu, you go make your own and then you'll understand" ... on your first day .. you would have quit.

If when we first came here and questioned "What is Parkour" (we all originally questioned this at some point) we were given some definition. a year ago we didn't say "Well I want to make my own definition", even though people who have been here for a year have come to their own understanding.

So, up until now, I have shared my thoughts and ideas on the difference between a definition and and understanding.

Taking this into consideration, I think it is good to put a definition to parkour that we can more or less agree on, if for no other purpose than to clearly and concisely relay some of the points of Parkour to people new to the concept, or people who wish to find out more about Parkour.

After all, in my opinion, this is the purpose a definition should suit, a clear, concise meaning for the purpose of relaying information or concepts or ideas about a particular thing.

Some definitions are very long, wordy, and necessarily boring, like many that we find in physics or phylum of flowers for example. However they are created to do what they need to do, and that is to relay the ideas and concepts of physics or flowers.

Now, when we are first introduced to science in school, we are given a cup of water ad told that it is a liquid, or something on a similar level to this. Then, as YEARS go by, we are told that a liquid takes the shape of its container because the strength of the bonds between molecules is not enough for the substance to hold it's own shape at a given temperature and pressure. then it gets deep.

My point here is that we need to set a "reasonably good" definition for Parkour. Not an all encompassing one that will be enough to apply to every situation, and not one so general that "Parkour is whatever I think it is". I will make a bold statement and say "Parkour is NOT whatever you think t is, it is a definable thing, and if you don't think the same as the defnition, then what you're thinking isn't parkour". I go back to my peanut butter sandwich idea to back that statement up. If I feel that I spread the PB with flow, so carefully as to not tear the bread, then perfectly clean the knife before slicing the jelly, it is STILL NOT PARKOUR 

So, now for the hard part, oh, one thing I almost forgot. I am not a founder of Pakour. I am not an omniscient historian of Parkour. I am not DB, I am not Seb. I do not pretend to be any more qualified for this task than anyone esle in the universe. I seek this task if only to save my sanity, and not have to answer "What is parkour" posts for the rest of my life, but move on to posts about DOING parkour.

Now, even if we, the community of UF do feel that we have successfully come to a definition of Parkour, there will be people who say "You are not DB, you are not Parkour, you are not the founder or the creator or even the maker of the peanut butter and jelly sandwich" Well, yes I am, I made the sandwich. :)

I think we should strive only to make a definition good enough to suit the needs of the parkour community, and accept that there will be interpretations, misinterpretations (let's not leave too much room) and people who just flat out disagree.

What I think we can achieve is to setup an "Urban Freeflow community definition of Parkour"

If we as members of the community can by and large agree to this, then it becomes in a sense irrefutable, nobody can tell us that it is not our definition. They can say they don't agree, or they don't like it, but not that it is not our definition.


So, I feel that there is a difference between an understanding and a definition. I feel there is a need, or at least a usefulness for a definition. I feel that we as a community represent a large cross-section of traceurs, and are as capable as any other group of coming up with a definition for ourselves of Parkour.

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this before moving on to "The Task".
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Every person has a choice - live by your fears or live by your dreams

Offline andi k

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2006, 10:03:56 AM »
Quote
you mean when you used to not be an asshole?

no, i mean when i used to think you were worthy to be my friend and when i not knew that you are worse than ez


nuff said.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2006, 10:13:10 AM »
I will ask you politely not to post here unless you plan on adding to this community.

If you feel that warning everyone in the world about me is what needs to be done, then please post some fact, example, or proof (or even reason) of how I am bad for the community, or how my efforts are not meant to help people.

I'd love to rip you apart over this, but it really doesn't do anyone any good.



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Offline andi k

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2006, 10:23:42 AM »
so you calling me an asshole adds to the community ?



nuff said.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2006, 10:39:39 AM »
No, I agree that this was not helpful and I'll work to restrain from calling you names.
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Offline Skipper

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2006, 12:38:20 PM »
hey, where'd that topic run off to?

OH there it is!!!

lets continue on topic, shall we? :D

Offline Flippusmn

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2006, 01:01:59 PM »
hey, where'd that topic run off to?

OH there it is!!!

lets continue on topic, shall we? :D

We shall,
Quote
sometime shortly after this post I learned better.
Just for the record and for anyone who is unsure, M2 didn't even know better at the time (just one example of something not exactly what you may not completely understand) so it's fine if you don't . I think that Parkour cannot ever be complete defined to a point where everyone can get a good understanding about it so don't kill yourself trying to find the true definition of Parkour, just do it! It is what it is, it has never truly changed.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 01:03:55 PM by Skipper »
Parkour can make you or break you, each of which I have experienced. ~Feel the Flow~ "Don't think with your balls, think with your brain." -Houston

Offline ERI104

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2006, 01:47:34 PM »
no, i mean when i used to think you were worthy to be my friend and when i not knew that you are worse than ez

lmao you sound as concieted as me...i dunno if thats a good thing or a bad thing....and i think EZ is definatly a bigger wanker!!!


back on topic:

i remember when i used to think flips were teh coolest part of parkour...then i learned that flips weren't parkour but i attemtped to learn one anyway...so i go the gym and sprain my ankle doing a flip and now i hate em!!! I also used to be obsessed with roof jumps...now i think those are pretty crappy too...yeah continue :D
I am the Egyptian Monkey



things people have called parkour
1) popcorn
2) park whore
3) par four
4) pa coop

Offline Flippusmn

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2006, 02:04:44 PM »
no, i mean when i used to think you were worthy to be my friend and when i not knew that you are worse than ez

lmao you sound as concieted as me...i dunno if thats a good thing or a bad thing....and i think EZ is definatly a bigger wanker!!!


back on topic:

i remember when i used to think flips were teh coolest part of parkour...then i learned that flips weren't parkour but i attemtped to learn one anyway...so i go the gym and sprain my ankle doing a flip and now i hate em!!! I also used to be obsessed with roof jumps...now i think those are pretty crappy too...yeah continue :D

I don't think EZ is quite as big a wanker  :-\.
One thing, you can do flips if you want and call it what you want, I don't think it matters what you call it because if you go to a jam to do Parkour and you do a flip while there nobody is going to care are they :-\.
BTW: nothing is Parkour unless you use it in/as Parkour such as a roof jump, right ;) so I think even though a flip is not Parkour it may be needed in efficiency such as to slow you down off a very large jump so to me flips can be considered as Parkour right!. They (roof jumps and flips) are efficient to be able to flow efficiently in some cases, right. mmmhmmm
Almost anything you do can be efficient in some way so Parkour can be more things than you think, thats why were here to find those things right, learn and get better. The human body is limitless in most cases, it just takes forever to break those current limits that have yet to be set huh.


BTW: I have been into roof jumps for nearly 2 years and still going strong. lol
Parkour can make you or break you, each of which I have experienced. ~Feel the Flow~ "Don't think with your balls, think with your brain." -Houston

Offline Rafe

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2006, 03:10:52 PM »
A flip isn't going to signficantly help slow you down during a fall it will just reduce the time you have to get yourself set for the landing and increase the likilihood you will become disoriented in the air.

Theoritically Its possible that flips might be efficient movements over specific obstacles for specific invididuals. I know people who can flip farther then they can long jump, and people can definatly flip over objects higher then then can straight jump over, the fosbury flop that dominates competive high jumping is essentially a under rotated flip in the gainer family. For objects like hedge rows that are to high to be jumped but to soft to be vaulted a flip theoritically might be a good option.

But thats all theoritically I know that for myself despite coming up on six years of gymnastics training vs. less then a year of parkour, when I actually go out with the mindset of parkour, flips just aren't an option. David bellle is an incredible acrobat as well as traceur he has made it pretty clear that he does not consider flips efficient options in parkour.

How you train will determine what what movements will flow easily for you, choosing the right movements to train for your parkour is what will allow you to reach the goal of speed and efficiency. My experience and the advice of the most experienced practioners I have talked to indicate that flips are just not movements that function in parkour.

In the end you train the movements practice the mindset and you'll see for yourself what movements work for you.

I will continue to practice acrobatics because I find it incredible fun, but I don't expect that flips will ever become a legitimate option in my parkour.
I shall not fear, fear is the mind killer the little death that precedes total obliteration

I will face my fear, I will let it pass over and through me and were it is gone, I will turn the inner eye and see its path, and only I will remain.

Offline Brian Belida

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2006, 03:31:41 PM »
A disclaimer request JUST IN CASE : Please don't let this turn into another flips debate, thanks! :]

Offline Asa Liebmann

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2006, 03:42:43 PM »
(completely ignoring rehashed, off-topic conversation [applaud to akh])

Yeah, Mark, I think I remember that second post... and also the fact that despite extensive debate, and several thousand feet3 of hot air, no "Urban Freeflow community definition of Parkour" was ever agreed upon.

I guess it's hard to create a definition with no understanding to build on.

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2006, 05:07:12 PM »
Yes, that was a loooong topic that never came to an intelligent conclusion. Such a shame, as the intentions were quite good. Unfortunately we were lacking the raw materials (intelligent discourse and open-mindedness) to lay a foundation for anything productive.

Offline Mike "Pyro" Araujo

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Re: The Way-Back Machine
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2006, 05:20:10 PM »
Nice posts M2 shows you know what you're talking about. I wasn't a member of UF nor did i even know it exists. But then again i still have this place. So i will take this time to thank everyone who indirectly may have given me a more in-depth/better idea of what parkour is :'(. I told my self i wasnt going to cry.....

But seriously thank you to everyone on this site/forum who helps me and other traceurs get a better understanding of parkour. ;D