Author Topic: Not Parkour, or is it?  (Read 24219 times)

Offline Rafe

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2006, 01:57:07 PM »
Deft your implication then anyone who does some acrobatics is freestyler is flat out insulting. I can't understand why your so attached to freestyle parkour when even the people who named the damn thing don't use that name any more. Parkour is parkour acrobatics are acrobatics freestyle is meaningless.
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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2006, 01:59:45 PM »
And it's the mindset that matters. I can go do flips all day, yet I know that they are not Parkour. I also would never call them Furpicking, no matter the situation. They are acrobatics, which is seperate from my Parkour training. Good try though ;)

Offline Alex Steadman

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2006, 09:02:17 PM »
Whenever I try to make good threads they always die but when I make one looking for a simple answer it thrives and becomes a good thread?

Well way to go on making it a good thead everyone.

Offline Matthew Lee Willis

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2006, 10:06:06 PM »
lol man Deft...your the best...That is why I voted you funniest Thread-er.  Oh man...these threads make me cry lol...Let me catch my breath.  whooooo.  Alright well,

The thing that I suggested by far was not a good idea...it was just an idea that I thought might throw everyone off target...mission accomplished for a while hehe.  Oh man...I can see the flaming now if you were to subsection those videos...even more whinning them me and DEFT...lol
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Offline Deft

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2006, 07:24:16 AM »
Alex- I am sorry if you feel I trampled over your thread. I feel that all I did was take it off on a tangent which was spawned by the topic of this thread. I was friendly to all and used humor, what else could I do besides not speaking my mind when I feel compelled to speak it, especially when I think my point is valid? Isn't a forum a place to peacefully discuss matters with like-minded people? Did I not do that?

Faelcind- I didn't imply that ANYONE who does some acrobatics is freestyle. There is a list of contingencies that must occur. I stated that IF your last 3 vids had freestyle, you submitted a pic/s in the POW that are not of true parkour, AND that whenever you train it is common practise to train freestyle techniques BUT then you go straight to the message boards after posting your freestyle training videos/pics and tell people that what they do is not parkour- THEN you are a closet freestylist.

It is not for people who do a occasional acrobatic move but for those who train them on a regular basis, share them on a regular basis, and them preach against them on a regular basis. If anyone feels that this describes them, they might want to question if they are a closet freestylist.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 07:42:30 AM by Deft »

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Offline Asa Liebmann

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2006, 09:25:30 AM »
Deft, before I say anything, I want to tell you that I laughed aloud when I read "Closet Freestylist".

Although it's very funny, you're wrong in your assumptions.

I have a friend who is a gymnast. He competes internationaly, and therefore practicing gymnastics is a big part of his life. He spends hours each day at the gym training tumbling and flips. It's safe to say that he trains them on a regular basis. He also preforms at exhibitions, competitions, and halftime shows, worldwide, and has taught many other people gymnastic skills, including flips, so it's safe to say that he shares them on a regular basis.

He also practices parkour, and has (in my opinion) a fair grasp of it.

Are you saying that if says that flips aren't Parkour, he is a "closet freestylist"?


Offline Skipper

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2006, 10:20:51 AM »
Asa i completely disagree with you. there is NO WAY.... absolutely not any way at all.....







that he practices that much every day. i mean, he doesnt take any days off??  :P what about the sabbath?  ;D :P :P

Offline klaymen

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2006, 10:49:33 AM »
i agree with asa.

there is no one, and i mean no one who only does parkour. everyone practices moves to help them in there parkour. i think you still don't have a good understanding of the discipline. when people make videos, they are not doing parkour. they are making a video showcasing their talents. the parkour is in your intentions. it is what you are thinking about. even if you are moving in the fastest most efficient way possible, if you are thinking about every move that you are doing, then you are not doing parkour.

Offline Deft

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2006, 11:20:48 AM »
HA ha HA

I'm glad people can see the humor it all this.
but to reply to the replies:

Asa- As stated in my last 2 posts, not everyone who does a acrobatic move is a closet freestylist. Again the emphasis is on people who fit into the contingencies previously stated. The main point was for people who consistently train freestyle, post freestyle, and incorporate freestyle into flow, then go onto message boards and preach against freestyle.

klaymen- I understand that it is very difficult to video a true parkour flow (but it is not impossible.)  That was not even the issue I      was bringing to hand. Stop focusing on my understanding of the discipline. That is not in question at this time.

I know there are several martial artists here in this site. Some of you may be familiar with the phrase "You fight like you train"
I think that can be applied to parkour in the sense that your flow is reflected in the way you train. People pass of their closet freestyle abilities as "training" and that their "exercises with help their PK abilities."  SO DOES PUSHUPS but no one is doing those in the middle of a training video. What I am getting at is that people are passing off their freestyle as "exercise training" when pushups, chinups and other "standard" workout routines would be just as good if not better. Bottom line is people are doing the freestyle movements like the flag stance, palm and wall spins, flips and such because they are fun. That is why a freestylist does them, because they are fun. It's just that some people try to dismiss their freestyle as only being training which would thus throw them into the category of closet freestylists.
SO once again, if you do all the fun freestyle moves everyday that you are doing your fun parkour moves but for some reason chose your freestyle tendencies then you might be a......

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Offline Matthew Lee Willis

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2006, 11:25:15 AM »
I think Asa Got a little off track here.  DEFT meant avidly practices parkour and flips together...He meant nothing about doing gymnastics competitively or for work and then stopping and then goes and does parkour.  Its the way you practice your parkour, that he is talking about.

Quote
Bottom line is people are doing the freestyle movements like the flag stance, palm and wall spins, flips and such because they are fun.
LOL I saw that one segment off of Conan O'brien poppin' into my brains...RECLINER OF RAGE!!!

Oh and by the way.  My boys who compete competitive gymnastics work out 3 hours a day Mon-Fri.  Elite Gymnasts people like Olympic level work out almost 6 to 8 hours a day SERIOUSLY about 6 days a week.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 11:28:13 AM by Matthew Lee Willis »
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Offline Rafe

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2006, 10:04:48 PM »
I do flips wallspins, pointless chasse full twists while walking down the street because there fun deft I don't think anyone is denying who do these things at least in part because their fun. Flips will develop your proprioceptive sense in a way that pushup sure don't but none of the advanced traceurs I have spoken to mention that as the reason the do them. They do them cause their fun. Once again doing acrobatics doesn't mean your practice freestyle, freestyle a is word you insist on attaching to them but acrobatics existed long before the term freestyle was popularised. If you talk to the experienced traceurs from the continent most of them practice martial arts and acrobatics as well as parkour, the never felt the need for an all encompasing name for everthing they practiced. If you do you should use one that hasn't allready been defined(parkour).
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Offline klaymen

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2006, 07:43:12 AM »

klaymen- I understand that it is very difficult to video a true parkour flow (but it is not impossible.)  That was not even the issue I      was bringing to hand. Stop focusing on my understanding of the discipline. That is not in question at this time.


you can't make a video of people's thoughts or intentions, therefore, at this point in technology, it is impossible.

Offline Deft

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a question for freestylers part ll
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2006, 08:41:25 AM »
quote gear from the locked thread- "It seems odd that so far you are the only one pointing any fingers. "
  NO. I am not the one telling people that they should change the names of their sport/art/discipline. I am the one having to defend against accusations from numerous people. So I have no idea as to why you can even think I am the one pointing fingers. All you have to do is accept that Freestyle Parkour does in fact exist and is practised by literally thousands of people AND that most Traditionalists train/practise/share pics and vids with the parkour community actions of Freestyle Parkour.
 YOU PLAY LIKE US. YOU TRAIN LIKE US. YOU SHARE PIC AND VIDS OF FREESTYLE PARKOUR WITH US. To me everyone who posts Freestyle (even if they play if off as training or whatever) and is active in the war against Freestyle Parkour has a little bit of hypocrisy in their words and actions. No one has touched on this statement which I find to be VERY important because it shows that the traditionalists who are attacking Freestyle also are avid in practicing the art of Freestyle Parkour.

quote gear from the locked thread- "...isn't Parkour if you're thinking "OK, now a speed-vault would look cool...I could jump that, but a cat-leap would be more impressive to those girls over there...my knees have been hurting, but I'll skip the turn vault and just drop to roll because I'm making a video.."
  If you are implying that we have that mentality when we jam just because we are freestyle that is incredably messed up. I take that statement with the greatest of offense. It almost feels like we are back to the name calling days.

gear- I do see some validity in your statement about "If Parkour is determined less by the actual movements than by the mindset that makes you a Traceur" but there are half truths in there. It that was completely true water polo would be part of parkour so long as the mindset was there. Obviously we don't accept water polo as part of parkour. Does anyone disagree? Didn't think so. Then everyone who agrees that water polo is not part of parkour is guilty of determining what is NOT part of parkour strictly based on actions.
  If you think we do Freestyle Parkour just to impress the ladies and to be flashy then you are sooooo incredably wrong and misguided. I also see that as being very offenseve and as low as the comments that we made back in the name calling days.


I wish I was a mod. Then I could put in the last word and lock the thread..hehe :P
oh and wasn't that thread a question for freestylers? It's funny the amount of Traditionalists that are eager to attack Frestylists. Especially if you read what I wrote in capitols about how these are the poeple who train Freestyle and share Freestyle pics/vids then war against it. Which adds more validity to the term Closet Freestylists. Now that I really think about it, I feel that really deserves to be part of the lexicon.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 08:46:55 AM by Deft »

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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2006, 09:13:25 AM »
The point is Deft that you do have several misconceptions. "Freestyle Parkour" in an oxymoron. There is nothing defined about movements in Parkour, so it can't be "freestyle" and it can't be "not freestyle" ... they're apples and oranges.

If the intention in Water Polo was to get from one place to another using the most efficient movements for the chosen path, then yes, the intention WOULD fit into parkour. Again, not based on physical movement, based on intention and method of acting out that intnetion.

As for THOUSANDS of people doing furpicking, even EZ and the UF Seidojin have dropped the name, it was a terrible name and a terrible execution of what started a s a good idea, which was to create a name for the broader movements that MANY people who practice parkour like to do.

I agree that it can be confusing and seem hypocritical when someone puts a flip in the middle of a mostly PK vid and then says "I was training, or I was showing all my abilities" or "That part wasn't PK but the rest was" ... the point is, no matter how confusing or hypocritical that may seem, it doesn't make the flip Parkour.

The name Freestyle Parkour was an attempt to lump those two kinds of activities (Traditional Parkour and tricking / acrobatics / palmspin / wallflip moves) together. The problem was it was sort of crammed down' people's throats with no buy-in from the community, and only set to further a split (as you can see).

Now, even UF seems to have "admitted" that it wasn't such a hot idea or such a hot execution of an idea.

that means you need to catch up with things.

You can try to defend it all you want, but I don't think you'll find many sympathizers, especially whist you keep calling a run "a flow". It's a terrible use of the word really.


Now, I personally feel and always have felt that it would be nice if there were some other term which encompassed both Parkour movements and tricking / acrobatics / other seemingly related MOVEMENTS, however when you break it down logically it DOESN'T WORK because Parkour is an intention and Tricking and Acrobatics have DIFFERENT GOALS than PARKOUR. therefore you're trying to put oil and water together and they're just not going.

Instead, why not call it "Free Running" ... this term has come to mean more of what it is I think you want to do ... run, with some acrobatic and tricking movements and interaction with obstacles and a sense of directionality and fluidity. The idea of "Free Running" DOES blend well with Tricking and Acrobatics, because the goal of Free Running is not defined as "shorts, most efficient, direct, minimal" and all those other things which are a part of Parkour.

So, yes, someone can practice Parkour (as defined by intention) and still do Tricking and Acrobatics (as defined by movement) but that DOESN'T make them the same thing.

Free Running, although it was originally intended to be synonymous with Parkour has come to mean more what you are talking about, movements similar to the physical side of Parkour, but without the "urgency and intention" of Parkour, you can Freerun in circles all day and that's cool, where a situation where Parkour actually had you going in circles would be a very special and strange situation indeed :)

Hopefully this helps clarify things for you. Please respond (everyone) with your thoughts, as I think this post (with a little bit of work) may be worthy of turning into an article on the difference between Parkour and Freerunning.
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Offline Skipper

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2006, 09:47:37 AM »
Quote
where a situation where Parkour actually had you going in circles would be a very special and strange situation indeed
Think long spiral staircase with tall walls on either side  ;D

I think you have an excellent basis for a nice article. Maybe if its on the front page, people will understand... not sure why, but i guess you just cant argue with front page news ;)

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2006, 09:58:39 AM »
While I'm on this train of thought I wanted to simplify and add this:

The reason that Parkour does not mix directly with Tricking, Acrobatics, Gymnastics and other activities is because Parkour is defined by intention not by physical movement. Parkour is a mindset, it is what you would do in an emergency situation where you had to get somewhere quickly or escape from something. Moving AS IF you were in this situation qualifies as Parkour.

The difference between practicing Parkour and doing Parkour is that in Practice you would think about a movement, even  break it down into sub-movements, analyze it, repeat it. This is so that when you are doing parkour the movements are not necessary to think about, you focus on your intended destination and constantly re-evaluate your path to get there. By having built up a core of movements, the movements are no longer an issue.

I will relate it to martial arts training vs sparring. In training, you throw countless thousands of punches, you analyze the punch, you break it down, "wrist turns over" "power comes from hip/ waist" ""front foot turns in". then when you get into a sparring situation, you are not, or at least you damn well better not be thinking about these things. Instead you are analyzing your opponent, reacting to their moves and focused on the goal of winning the bout or practice match. Then, should you get into an actual fight or need to defend yourself situation, it goes to another level, fight or flight, reactions only, spinal reflex. If your reflexes have been trained, you've achieved muscle memory of certain basic movements, and the "right things" come up naturally.

This progression is very similar to Parkour. You practice basice movements, break them down, analyze, repeat, retrain, learn muscle memory. then you go for a "practice run" where you are thinking about moves and executing them. Then you "do" Parkour .. you pick a destination and get there, movement has now dropped out of the equation altogether. Then, one day you find yourself in a situation where you need to get somewhere and your only issue is urgency, now only your quickest route and effective movements count, hopefully you can focus on the route because you've trained your body to be capable of doing whatever movement is necessary to take your chosen path.
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2006, 09:59:38 AM »
Quote
Think long spiral staircase with tall walls on either side

I'd call that fairly specialized :)
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Offline Deft

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emma2 = furpicking
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2006, 10:10:58 AM »
quote emma2- "If the intention in Water Polo was to get from one place to another using the most efficient movements for the chosen path, then yes, the intention WOULD fit into parkour. Again, not based on physical movement, based on intention and method of acting out that intnetion."
 True, but then you are denying all the action of the water polo participant and are not focusing on thier primary intentions of taking a ball across a court or pool. It would be using that logic to assume that evert time a running back heads for the end zone he is using parkour.

quote emma2- "I agree that it can be confusing and seem hypocritical when someone puts a flip in the middle of a mostly PK vid and then says "I was training, or I was showing all my abilities" or "That part wasn't PK but the rest was" ... the point is, no matter how confusing or hypocritical that may seem, it doesn't make the flip Parkour."
 Ã‚ I am glad you can at least see the hypocracy and I know it doensn't make a flip parkour but WHEN you take parkour and add Freetyle you get Freestyle Parkour.   Parkour + Freestyle= Freestyle Parkour
things like this exist within Skateboarding, Rollerblading, BMX, and much much more. IT is not a new concept to take a origional concept and have it evolve in time. It is in that way Freetyle Parkour has sprung from the traditional movements, mindsets, and boundaries. Everyone has the choise of accepting it  or not(even though they ARE practising/training/ performing and sharing it) but bottom line is IT IS HERE TO STAY.

quote emma2- "Instead, why not call it "Free Running" ... this term has come to mean more of what it is I think you want to do ... run, with some acrobatic and tricking movements and interaction with obstacles and a sense of directionality and fluidity."
 Ã‚ See you all are as hung up on the idea of how it MUST be called free running. I think it is only fair that the participants get to call it what they want. I have never participated in barrel racing so I feel I have no ground to try to get people to call it free barrel riding.


emma2 - why are you asking for backup on this situation? Is there not enough people who already have your back on this? Especially with all the Closet Freetylers standing behind you. I would say the ratio of traditional:freestylist is already drastically in your favor even though it may be a lot of Closet Freestylists who actually train/participate/share and show Freestyle everyday. (As you can see I am hung up on the fact that So many people here do freestyle but yet they don't embrace it. Only when it's fun and passed of a training or whatever you want to call it.) I haven't asked for support in holding strong to what I believe to be true.   Matthew adds his 2 cents as he feels is necessary but we don't try to tag team anybody. Earlier you all locked the thread about this, why are you asking for a shoutout all of a sudden?

quote emma2- "This progression is very similar to Parkour. You practice basice movements, break them down, analyze, repeat, retrain, learn muscle memory."
  Do you not think flips and spins can become part of muscle memory? I drill flips and such so when I put them into application I do not have to think about such things as keeping my head in  and where my arms are and all that.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 10:15:54 AM by Deft »

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2006, 10:42:02 AM »
Parkour + Freestyle= non-Parkour= only Freestyle...perhaps Freestyle Walking?

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Not Parkour, or is it?
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2006, 10:54:58 AM »
Daft, you are still missing the point.

You also seem to be calling me a name, should I go quote your posts where you talk about name calling and then about hypocrisy? If you're not going to talk about Barrel racing, then don't call me emma, you're not my friend, so I can only assume you mean this as an insult.


I was not asking anyone for Backing, I primarily meant YOU, but apparently you're still too thick to get this.

You are now arguing for the sake of arguing, and saying things which you clearly don't know about.

I spent the better part of an hour making a post to try to help you, and you come back with name calling.

You've now got three days to consider why this isn't the best idea. I'll email you my post again so you've got something to think about. :)
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