Author Topic: Keeping parkour rivarly free  (Read 14074 times)

Offline Tsumaru

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2007, 06:26:37 PM »
Quote
Even LEGOS tell you "what to make" ... you can't get get some blocks and dream something up.
I resent that! My friend made a G36C with lego just for the hell of it last year. You can even attach a lego silencer to it, fold in the buttstock, and put scopes on the rail at the top!


Quote
The problem with no accomplishments is no self-esteem. People who don't feel they've done something don't feel useful and valuable.

On the other hand, people who have accomplishments gain self-respect and good self image. These people, in my opinion, are more likely to help themselves and others around them. They know what it means to work hard for something and have prdie in the results. They are winners.
This is an interesting point. I used to feel really good about certain Parkour accomplishments of mine, and I'd want to show them off so I'd find situations where I could do them 'spontaneously' around other friends - and they just didn't acknowledge them because I don't think they realised how difficult a lot of it is. This is a huge downer. However, when you do it in front of a fellow traceur friend, you get a lot of congratulations and stuff. And if that person doesn't know how to do it, you can then help them out as well. I remember getting a 'lazy turn vault' before any of the guys I looked up to who I trained with. It was a really great feeling when people around 5 years older then you and far more experienced and skilled are asking you for tips on how to perform a particular movement. Just something to think about if you can relate to such an experience.
Although, this was when I first started Parkour back in 2005 though, mind you. When I was 15. I'm not that concerned about it anymore, but I do see where Mark's coming from. I think it's an especially valid point for younger kids; not so much for older people.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 06:34:06 PM by Tsumaru »

Offline like_a_child

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2007, 06:51:01 PM »
This post has been modified from its original format. Some words have been colored to distinguish between otherwise ambiguous identifications of the plural possessive.

Please, for f#ck's sake, just treat one another with respect. What's with the anti-Americanism at the .net anyway?

Is competition about being better, or known as better? Pride taken in oneself, in one's own capability and/or accomplishments, can be found in solo endeavors; but it's also possible to measure oneself against standards derived from others, without relying on those others for affirmation. Too much of an emphasis on reputation can leave practitioners reliant on the (explicit) acknowledgement of 3rd parties for their emotional stability.

The logical flipside of "A is better than B" is that "B is worse than A"; when practitioner A demands that practitioner B validate A's status (by declaring "A is better than me"), this is equivalent to demanding that B say "I am worse than A" - not a concept meant to bolster one's confidence, for B or A. When practitioner A requires such a validation, any situation where B does not provide this can be perceived as a refusal to provide A with the rightfully-earned measure of respect.

More significantly, practitioner A may feel reduced by such an (in)action; if the standard defines B's proper role (and default behavior) as "acknowledging A's superiority", and B does not, then the most direct (if not most obvious ::)) means of redressing this is for A to announce their relationship, either through "I am better than B" or "B is worse than me".

The perceived (in)actions and resulting feelings become more intense when B practices self-respect; by A's standard, "I am good" is meaningless on its own, so B cannot say that without comparison to another practitioner (such as A) against whose measure B can be considered "good"; therefore B's pride equates to "I am better than you", which in turn equates to "You are worse than me" . . . having so aggressively (and inappropriately!) asserted A's inferiority, B's attitude must all the more urgently be restored to its proper place, typically by an overwhelming flood of "No, you're worse!"

It's possible some people will read all this and think "there's no point in arguing that noone has to lose unless you were going to lose anyway", or "there's no point in arguing that everyone can win unless you believe yourself to be so much better than everyone else that you won't accept any possibility of losing", which is pretty much the "it doesn't count as a win unless somebody else loses" mindset I was dissecting ;)

It's also possible that some people will think "Wow, what an arrogant punk like_a_child is to enjoy confidence without resting it on our approval!", but I'm not interested in having my self-esteem held hostage to the lowest denominator, so I don't really care :P

None of this should be taken to imply that Americans are so much better than everyone else, they can't conceivably be criticized.

It should, however, be taken to imply that anyone whose own sense of self-worth depends on belittling others has an inferiority complex :P

When we move, we move as one, right?

Wasn't that on a video once?

They moved as one. They jumped as one. They collided as one. They fell as one.
I give you this:
I will never view my fellow traceurs as a springboard.

Offline willgrind747

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2007, 07:06:23 PM »
OK here is my main reason why I think parkour should not be used in competition:

Little Johny Smith is watching TV and suddenly comes across a "parkour" competition on ESPN.  There is a man doing all kinds of crazy moves like jumping over things, flipping over stuff, dropping off of high things, and Johny thinks it's the coolest thing he's ever seen.  He instantly goes out and starts learning how to flip, starts doing big drops, and never once really learns what parkour REALLY is.



that could work as a word for word description of my (and I'm sure THOUSANDS of others) first impression/reaction to parkour. We turned out ok, so will this next wave.

How are we supposed to find the hundreds of thousands of them that see this competition on television?

We won't have to, They will find US! I found parkour after chasing leads on the internet that started with the word "streetclimb" on the end of a David belle vid. I will bet my LIFE people who see televised PK competitions are going to hit the net looking for more, and when they do they are going to end up right here. I'm going to laugh pretty hard when the new wave of traceurs this brings starts defending competitions becuase thats how they found it, and because how much they love it.
""No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -- Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline like_a_child

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2007, 07:33:51 PM »
If you’ve read this far, I applaud you, and I also can now see how you have the stamina and will to do 50 handstand pushups and whatever other miracles of human biomechanics are posted on the WOD.

I'm working on the stamina part :)

Having read even further (and seen that noone else in the thread already/yet said what I was thinking of saying), I offer this perspective on competition/rivalry:

A competition formalizes certain times and types of contests whereby "winners" are determined. Outside those formal structures, you can do whatever you want, but it won't count for purposes of the (official) competitions.

A rivalry doesn't care. If you learn that your rival has done better than you, it counts, whether they did it in front of judges or not.
I give you this:
I will never view my fellow traceurs as a springboard.

Offline Skipper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2007, 09:35:10 PM »
Im gonna take a side note here before I leave for a sunny vacation. The life of this thread has been filled with misunderstandings, mis-wordings, arguments and strong points......... but I actually feel pretty good about it.

Im VERY surprised that it hasnt blown up, become a full on fight, or really just turned into "one of THOSE threads."
So I want to commend all involved for the peaceful discussion. And Ive said in my posts that this is all it is, a discussion, getting points and opinions out into the open. For the most part, we kinda knew what was coming, but bravo to everyone for keeping their cool :)
Sorry If I was any less help than hoped, but I tried, and everyone else tried. The main goal isnt to figure out if competition is right or wrong, or if it will undoubtedly lead to rigid rivalries, but it was to discuss it peacefully.

Not sure about you guys, but thats whats keeping me around parkour, the fact that two VERY different viewpoints are able to come together in one thread or forum without leading to the internet shit slinging contests that are present on every other forum on the web.

For me, that leaves me with a somewhat sweet taste in my mouth... as if the friendliness of the community wont go running away between the polar opposites... no matter how bad it gets. So whatever happens, Im still excited about the what, where, who, when, why and how of the years to come of Parkour.

Have fun guys, vacation time :P

Offline Tsumaru

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2007, 11:09:04 PM »
Quote
Not sure about you guys, but thats whats keeping me around parkour, the fact that two VERY different viewpoints are able to come together in one thread or forum without leading to the internet shit slinging contests that are present on every other forum on the web.
This isn't what keeps me around Parkour, but it's what keeps me around American Parkour. Most other websites are shitholes and a lot of people you can't have anything remotely close to a civilized discussion with, and this applies to community leaders as well (Andi, anyone?).


PS: like_a_child, your post gave me a headache. Well, I actually had a headache beforehand, but you made it worse. Perhaps (due to my headache?) I did not understand something in your post which is evident to everybody else, but regardless I have to ask - what was the point of your rant? While it's an interesting analysis and I follow what you're saying, I'm trying to link it to an actual contention you're trying to make.

Offline Skipper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2007, 02:42:08 AM »
Dude I totally was in a good mood just leave me alone!

gah what a buzz kill.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2007, 05:06:56 AM »
Lie_a_child - I hope nothing in my post was so misunderstandable as to lead to yours :)

when I talk about the pride of accomplishments and the feelings of self-esteem, I am talking about things that people do for themselves, without comparison to other people.

As for your whole discourse, I'd say that's why we're not a world of "Spocks" :) While everything you say does appear to follow some logical progression, I don't think that it represents how MOST people actually feel / act. I don't think the good skaters that are in the X-games go to competitions so that they can fell better about themselves JUST BECAUSE they are better than someone else, and  I don't think they gome home feeling bad if they are person B, not first place, if they do, I'd say it's because something of they feel THEY could have done better, not because person A is just "better than them". Although I'm sure there are people in the world that do behave your way. there are people that do this in all things, reltationships, jobs, bullying kids on the playground, etc.
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Offline like_a_child

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2007, 11:59:42 AM »
PS: like_a_child, your post gave me a headache. Well, I actually had a headache beforehand, but you made it worse. Perhaps (due to my headache?) I did not understand something in your post which is evident to everybody else, but regardless I have to ask - what was the point of your rant? While it's an interesting analysis and I follow what you're saying, I'm trying to link it to an actual contention you're trying to make.

Not so much a point in itself as something for people to think about. I thought that elaborating on some of the underlying issues involved might serve as a mental aid in the efforts to understand - or debate - others' views.

Lie_a_child - I hope nothing in my post was so misunderstandable as to lead to yours :)

I posted that reply at a time when I had read no further in the thread than that point - yli's post. Did you have any particular posts of yours in mind?

when I talk about the pride of accomplishments and the feelings of self-esteem, I am talking about things that people do for themselves, without comparison to other people.

I did see a few posts (later on in this thread, and after that in the other thread) where you seemed to be echoing what I was saying, though of course it would appear the other way around since everyone else read those before seeing mine :)

As for your whole discourse, I'd say that's why we're not a world of "Spocks" :) While everything you say does appear to follow some logical progression, I don't think that it represents how MOST people actually feel / act.

This was pretty much what I was saying in the first paragraph, yes. That we could find feelings of personal accomplishment outside of a competition, but that they also could be found in one. But then I noted how competitions may unduly emphasize the reputation source of ego, and attract people who have an inferiority complex - i.e., rely on others to say "We suck too, so in comparison you're not all that bad.", which is an awful way to promote confidence!

Sure, there will be people who can compete and still think well of themselves - but this very attitude can be taken as an affront. In creating a competition, it might not even be possible to avoid attracting the ones who will seek out any arena so long as there is a formal structure in place to tell everyone that their victory must be acknowledged now, but it may be possible to reduce the future conflict that would arise when "confidence through others" meets "self-confidence".
I give you this:
I will never view my fellow traceurs as a springboard.

Offline Streetviper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2007, 07:20:46 AM »
When reading various competition threads and anti-(fill in the blank) threads I see a lot of the words competition and rivalry. Well yeah it is what the thread is about but how are we defining competition and rivalry. Are going with loose interpretations like "when you run from a mugger is that competition?" or Rivalry is present everywhere!"
  I disagree. Running from a mugger = competition like going to school were a no weapons policy w/o any pencils and saying they are a weapons that could be used to stab people >:(. Yeah ok you could say that, but it’s absurd. When we mention competition we all know that the idea is organized competition. they day-to-day pushing of one another could be defined as competition but it is just behind the line from helping one another to degrading each other in some form which IS in all ORGANIZED COMPETITION. Ex. I got first place, you did not. I win, you lose. I am good, you are not.

   Rivalry is also not unhealthy. It’s like alcohol, a little can actually be healthy but go and start chugging a keg and you will die. Moderation and malance are the keys to understanding competition and rivalry. Parkour philosophy is not a written set of terms and laws but it is understood to be a certain way. How else could you explain the reprimanding of people who say they learn Parkour to make people like them? It’s not written anywhere about the proper motive of Parkour but we still all understand that it is supposed to be about how you can better yourself and your surroundings not about being able to break into a high-rise apartment or being able to show off. It is just understood so how can you say that the Parkour philosophy on competition does not exist?

 And .NET while, yes it was formed by UFF outcasts it does represent a wide group of people. The threads are in 2 or 3 different languages with representatives all over the globe. Also the top level Practitioners on that site have been practicing since before I could even walk. I say anyone who has been practicing that long has probably picked up on a few things that may elude the newer fresher parkour practitioners. 
    Parkour is still in its infancy and still has a lot of maturing to do so it is up to us to help shape it. If you have a lot of voice that leads the communities you are in then I say you have a responsibility to not only lead them but also to help them have their voices heard. It is a shame when I see people who post great points but get bowled over without any acknowledgement because some  “older” members are debating whether  some trivial matter. I am not saying that if you should adopt people’s opinions but don’t abuse you leadership to scream over the voices of the regular guys or to just push them around.

   To the regular old non-leaders make your opinions heard. If you really think that parkour is all about the crazy crap you can do to make your girlfriend proud and make money say so…people will make sure that you understand that that is not Parkour but have some guts and voice it. If you don’t like competition then say so don’t just let it go by with giving it some thought. M2 isn’t a mind-reader. Shocking, I know. Unless you say what you want to say how can the leader of an American site understand what the nation is trying to say? How can anyone else for that matter.
 Parkour is not about competition or rivalries. Parkour is about movement.
With out passion , effort is meaningless.

Offline Streetviper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2007, 09:45:19 AM »
With out passion , effort is meaningless.

Offline like_a_child

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2007, 12:40:26 PM »
Parkour philosophy is not a written set of terms and laws but it is understood to be a certain way. How else could you explain the reprimanding of people who say they learn Parkour to make people like them? It’s not written anywhere about the proper motive of Parkour but we still all understand that it is supposed to be about how you can better yourself and your surroundings not about being able to break into a high-rise apartment or being able to show off. It is just understood so how can you say that the Parkour philosophy on competition does not exist?

Fairly simple: just distinguish between the aspects of Parkour philosophy which dictate "bettering ourselves and our surroundings, not being able to break into places or show off" and the aspects which dictate anything about competition. Once it's established that what has been dictated thus far, hasn't been dictated by any aspect that has anything to do with competition, the argument becomes a non sequitur.

It is a shame when I see people who post great points but get bowled over without any acknowledgement because some  “older” members are debating whether  some trivial matter. I am not saying that if you should adopt people’s opinions but don’t abuse you leadership to scream over the voices of the regular guys or to just push them around.

Do your forum settings have the "older voices" show up in bold while everyone else's are greyed out? I certainly don't see the occupation of one time segment in the lifespan of a thread by less than all of the subjects raised within that thread to be a sign of "bowling over" or "screaming over the voices of" or "pushing around" anyone. If you have trouble remembering what points we made just because we don't participate in the thread often or we hold our silence until we have something worth saying (with a higher standard than, by forum rules, strictly necessary), maybe you should keep a text file with records of all that, but don't accuse everyone else of being at fault for doing anything to us. They don't have such power, and I think they have higher respect for us than that anyway.

Parkour is not about competition or rivalries. Parkour is about movement.

On the other hand, Parkour is not just about movement. (There is a philosophy involved here somewhere, isn't there? I thought it had something to do with finding ways around obstacles, at least . . . ) A movie, even one based on real life, might showcase this by documenting the migration from a dojo to the newly forming Parkour community, as some of the people whose unease with their training in the dojo exactly fit the differences between martial disciplines and Parkour.
I give you this:
I will never view my fellow traceurs as a springboard.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2007, 07:20:39 AM »
Funny, someone sent me an email for a completely unrelated reason, but I thought they were sending it because of the "anti competitve" sentiment in Parkour.

So many people have said "You can't have a parkour competition because Parkour is not inherently competitive" ...

so I was a little surprised to get this as the subject of an email :)

Quote
Choir of the World Competition!! Eisteddfod in Europe!!

Oh well, I guess there's a lot of rivalry now in the choir world ... all those people starting to sing only for the money and the glory, not understanding what true sining is even about any more. The art of singing could be lost forever!

/ extra sarcasm /

http://www.llangollen.tv/en/participants/6
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Offline Streetviper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2007, 11:33:54 AM »
Extra sarcasm? I didn't notice ;D

 I can't explain why exactly but there is an inherent difference in these competitions.
With out passion , effort is meaningless.

Offline Dustin Evanetich

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2007, 02:03:17 PM »
i think this discussion is pointless. the whole point of parkour is to make it your own individual thing. if you want to compete you can and itsa still parkour. if you feel its more of an art and not something your interested in proving on an interpersonal level, thats copesetic aswell to parkour philosophy. i suppose i straddle the fence. i find myself unofficially competeing with my traing partners as an unsaid thing just in a jam. i suppose thats what pushes me to be better, when i want to match an ability or exceed it and have them match me. i wouldnt however want to be graded on a point scale publicly. but to each his own. either way your doing parkour, so cheers to you. may you
ever exceed your own level.
"One minute is enough. A person has to work hard for it, but a minute of perfection is worth it. A moment is the most you can expect from perfection." - Tyler Durden

Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2007, 08:03:01 PM »
*applause to Spoonbender*
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

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Offline naroz

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2007, 11:48:58 PM »
Probably has been said;
my rival is myself
Being 'as good as you can get' means you never stop learning.

Offline Streetviper

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Re: Keeping parkour rivarly free
« Reply #77 on: July 17, 2007, 10:35:19 AM »
well said spoonbender
With out passion , effort is meaningless.