Author Topic: Begginers? Not Cared for?  (Read 7054 times)

Offline ComebackKid

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2007, 02:45:17 PM »
I just wanted to real quick reinforce another example and reason why I believe that we should compile reliable information and create a program or something similar to what I suggested in my previous post.

Over the past couple months, I have become quite involved in Crossfit. Crossfit is an incredible fitness methodology and I respect it a great deal.

Today, they posted up this video of someone teaching parkour rolls despite their seemingly lack of parkour knowledge. The man who is teaching makes several large mistakes and the demonstrations only reinforce the poor teaching techniques.

The video - http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_ShoulderRoll.wmv

I posted up in the corresponding WOD thread and addressed the problems with the rolls in this video.

This leads me to an important topic that will affect the future of parkour. Who is qualified to teach it and who is not? It is my hope that only those people with much experience and knowledge of not only parkour, but also teaching will be the ones passing on their knowledge to future traceurs. However, there may come a point where more and more unqualified people teach and offer dangerous and poor parkour programs to the public.

I think here at American Parkour we have some traceurs and members that are qualified (qualified more than well over 95% of the internet) to teach our newbies. I hope this can give some insight and reason towards my cause of creating "a newbie section".

Offline ComebackKid

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2007, 02:47:45 PM »
Con- A stricter teaching program means that students learn less on there own. They are less likely to explore, and therefore less likely to expand.

I disagree with that, because this program is solely to start off the newbie, give them the proper knowledge and makes sure they are doing the techniques correctly. After they learn these basics that should be encouraged to explore and expand their knowledge. Also we aren't whipping them into doing this program, we're just offering, they can tweak it to their personal needs or go off it whenever they please, which is a bit of a con in a way. But my point being is I highly disagree with you that the program would restrict the newbies for the aforementioned reasons.

P.S. There's no malice intention in this if I happen to come off that way, I just disagreed and refuted what you said, thank you however for the constructive criticism.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 03:32:37 PM by ComeBackKid »

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2007, 03:15:56 PM »
There should definitely be good tutorials on landing and rolling. There are SO many bad examples, and too many people jumping from too high.

It doesn't have to be labeled as "A Program for Noobs". We just need to make sure that the good tutorials and good training is easier to find than the bad. At least here at APK.

Offline ComebackKid

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2007, 03:31:29 PM »
btay, i think this compilation can help ANYONE, not just newbies, because basic movements are so important and comprise the foundation of parkour, anyone can review and improve on their abilities. Without a foundation nothing can stand, that's another reason I think compiling reliable and correct, safe, basic movements of parkour is so necessary.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2007, 07:01:16 PM »
Bump ....

I've started combining our two current verisons of "How to get started" ...

http://www.americanparkour.com/content/view/887/270/

and

http://www.americanparkour.com/content/view/11/237/


I'll be using the ideas in here to make a great section for beginners. All ideas welcomed.
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2007, 06:27:37 AM »
Bump again. Let's get to work on stuff that helps people.
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Offline John VO

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2007, 01:54:27 PM »
I like this idea... But that may be because I'm a beginner

Offline Paul Leon Mederos

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2007, 02:13:51 PM »
I love beginners so I spend pretty much all my time training newbies and helping them advance. The problem is that I'm not very good at writing articles =(

Instead I offer complete advice in person!!! If you ever have a chance to train with me I will teach you anything you've ever wanted to learn  ;)   Until then, hope that I get better at writing my words out so that I can help you across the net.
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Offline ComebackKid

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2007, 02:27:22 PM »
I thought this topic died and nothing was going to be done about it, i was starting to get discouraged. Thanks a lot M2, if you need any help with anything I'd be glad to help.

Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2007, 08:32:07 PM »
This is interesting. I've found some *wonderful* resources on the APK site to help me get started. Granted, my parkour "training" at the moment consists of the APK warmup and some running. I do not yet feel I am to a level where I can safely practice even the fundamentals (e.g. landing and rolling from very short heights). I will get there eventually, but in the meantime I can nose around and get my head around the fundamentals before putting my body into them. I would also like to find a training buddy once I feel fit enough to try the fundamentals, but one thing at a time.

I've been around the internet looking for resources for parkour beginners and so far this is the best I've found. I agree that there should be an obvious place for beginners; some giant red button that says, "Beginners, look here!" on the front page or something. That said, there's a lot here to help beginners and for the most part it's pretty accessible. For someone who has at least some degree of physical training/awareness, they sort of know where to look and what to consider when starting a new physical discipline. I do like the idea of a 30-day guide; I think the WOD is a great place to start (especially the note about "just do the APK warmup and if that's all you can do, that's good enough for now if you're just starting out"). It's where I've started, and it seems to be working out.

The thing to remember is that parkour is *so* young as physical disciplines go. I would argue it's probably the youngest one out there. So training is still very new, very uncodified. To be quite honest, given parkour's age, I'm surprised the training is articulated as much as it is. We are in the "wild west" of training--we're still learning how to teach it and how to "package it for the masses" as it were.

The thing is, you have to make any newbie program accessible to people who are coming to parkour from other disciplines, and also to people who are basically suddenly-inspired couch-potatoes. You want the latter to feel especially encouraged/supported, because they're the ones who will make the most gains (over time), and to whom it will mean more to progress in a physical discipline. Speaking as a teacher, that transformation is an awesome, awesome thing to observe. They are also the ones most likely to hurt themselves, so they will need a lot of support to get started.

I think the WOD is a great place for this because it can be modular: go at your own pace; do what you can, no shame in only being able to do one pushup, for instance; as long as you keep at it. There is something for the newbies and the experienced traceurs to do and all will be challenged.

In my view, as a parkour newbie, but an athletic person and a teacher, I think all we need to support our newbies is the following:

1. The organizational points btay brought up in a previous post, under a "Getting Started" type heading (I'm too lazy to read, but I think this is already being done)

2. Some sort of "Newbie!" or "Beginner!" logo to put next to certain articles/sections of the site to draw attention to areas that are of particular interest to beginners, to entice them to click there.

Just my 2 cents (I like to talk...sorry for babbing). I'm just a newbie, but I wanted to chime in with a concrete suggestion, and also give props because as mentioned, so far this site has been the best I've found for good, effective advice for beginners in a positive, supportive atmosphere (which is *crucial* IMO).
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
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and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
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--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

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Offline SlickNic

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2007, 09:43:19 PM »
Being a beginner myself, i agree w/ Muse_of_Fire.  Yall have one of the most information/well organized for beginners.  I clearly remember reading the "How do i get started?" section when just beginning, as well as reading through most of that.  So i must applaud you on what you have going.
The one thing I would like to say is one of the most frustrating things i can hear is "search it".  This is why I think that it would be good to have a beginners forum section where they can ask anything they want as many times as they want, and have someone with some knowledge sincerely answer them.  I think this is good for a few reasons, not only Does the beginner get his answer, but more importantly he feels more a part of the community.  Often you can post a simple question just to kind of introduce yourself, if the only response you get is "go search it"   its very dis-heartening, and I bet many people just wont visit again.  And a huge part of parkour is the community.

Not only that but honestly, what is wrong w/ explaining something repeatedly.  I have a math textbook, and im sure my teacher has heard the same question 100 times, and the exact answer is written on some page in it, but i've never had one tell me to look it up. 
And of course there is the, I dont want to spend hours looking up information when i can get it quickly and efficiently by asking.  It is very difficult sorting through all the information, expecially when your just beginning and dont know where anything is.  which is why the "how do i begin" section was so nice.

anyway hope this helped you see another perspective.


Offline Zeus

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2007, 12:37:23 PM »
I think most of the time when people bash on beginners is when

1. they exxagerate really badly about anything
2. they lie flat out on their own ability
3. they say that they can do (for example) a triple backflip off of a 35 foot drop over a pit of aligators, but in another thread they cant kong.
4. They ask something that is absurdly obvious
5. they say something offensive
6. They are to stubborn to listen to people with knowlage
7. they are to badass to listen to anyone with knowlage

I have seen (or done) all of these things

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2007, 01:03:39 PM »
What exactly do we need for the new Beginners/ Starting Out section? Help me out...

Who has the best tutorials? Not just PK, the best tutorials in ANYTHING? What can we learn from them to make our tutorials better?

What else needs to be included? What information should we pull from the other threads? What's most useful? What do you find confusing?


Offline Zeus

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2007, 01:51:34 PM »
I think one think we should do to help begginers is to add a bunch of video tutorials to youtube/google video. I wouldn't mind making a few.

I know alot of people have said watching youtube/google is how they got into pk so.........

Have like the APK Kong Tutorial with a traceur showing how to do one and a link to APK.

Also Tricks tutorials has a bunch of great tricking tuts

Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2007, 09:01:09 PM »
I think tutorials are great, as are videos and all of that. But I'm going to have to say that in addition to that, SlickNic has a very good point. For most beginners, what they're looking for is a sense of community. You know, beginners are those people that arrive to the party in a really loud shirt, and everyone turns to look at them. They feel really self-conscious, even if they're normally quite confident people. It would be very useful to have their questions answered sincerely even if they've been asked 1000 times before. I dug through the FAQ and found some great information, but the FAQ is not exhaustive (no FAQ can be).

Basically it's like your first time on the job: you need someone to at least show you where the bathrooms, the copier, and the coffee machine are, and to warn you ahead of time that the receptionist is picky about who touches her paperclips or whatever. I like the idea of a "Beginners" forum that has a FAQ and also places for beginners to post questions and receive a sincere answer even if it's been answered a million times before.

To take it a step further:

1. Create the Beginners forum
2. Questions are answered sincerely as they come up
3. A mod (or two or six), or someone, monitors the Beginners forum daily and maintains lists of links to previous answers, so that the next time someone asks, "What's a Burpee?" the mod(s) can reference their list and respond with simply a link to the last time that question was answered. Perhaps there is a way to do this automatically; somehow related to the forum's search function settings? Although it would be awesome if someone were to go back and sift through the old posts and categorize the links, it's pretty impractical. Better to just have people answer sincerely and start tracking from now.
4. A caveat: even if you reply with a link, I would suggest that there also be included some kind of welcoming, personal message, like, "Welcome to PK! Here's a great explanation of what a Burpee is <link>. You can also keep track of your progress over at the WOD <link> or by setting up your own training journal here <link>. Good luck!"

In other words, in addition to utilitarian items to help newbies, we kind of also need a bit of a sunshine committee; a mentoring system of sorts; or at least a mentoring culture.

Another forum I belong to has a formal mentoring system, where newbs are paired up with kindhearted old hands, who become their "go to" person when they have questions about where to find stuff on the forums, how to use certain website functions, how to settle disputes with other forum members, what kind of shoes to buy, whatever. Basically anything. I liked that idea a lot, but if it's not properly implemented (and that's hard to do over the net), it can kind of fizzle. My mentor was great and very helpful at that site. It seems like an awful lot of work for the mentors, though.

Just a thought.
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline SlickNic

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2007, 12:22:07 AM »
What exactly do we need for the new Beginners/ Starting Out section? Help me out...

Who has the best tutorials? Not just PK, the best tutorials in ANYTHING? What can we learn from them to make our tutorials better?
Well when i was just getting interested, I liked the http://www.trickstutorials.com/ videos (on google.  And they had a link to their site, which had me then check out which was pretty cool.  Although i really like your tutorials but having videos up on youtube/google is a good idea.

Quote
What else needs to be included? What information should we pull from the other threads? What's most useful? What do you find confusing?
I remember just starting out.. something confused me about WOD and the apk warmup.  But since then ive figured it out i think ;p 
Also from what i remember I think it was urbanfreeflow.com that in the forums they used to say something like "welcome, youll never leave"  and i thought that was pretty cool ;p

Just try thinking like a beginner.  Just starting out you dont know where anything is(you probably dont even know this site exists, I didnt), and dont really want to read a ton(I just knew I wanted to go outside and climb and stuff/ learn how to wall flip, im not gonna lie), you know no one else that parkours(and dont even know there is a community out there that does it), you dont even know what parkour is.  so if something isnt blatently obvious, then it is completely confusing.   So the "informative" section on front page is a good idea, so thats covered alot of the bases.  Then I just think you need a forum section that says beginners can ask questions, and mention that there is a section in the "informative" pages so that they know to ask them there.  something like
Quote
Just beginning? Feel free to ask any questions and have them promptly answered in the <link>Beginners</link> section of the <link>forum</link>
As for pairing up people with mentors, its a good idea but seems tough.  Sure Id like one, but ill be fine w/o one.  Just a nice hello when im reaching out to the community would be good.
Also, perhaps yall could have a chat client (on website/ aim/ mirc) so that people can talk in real time.  thinking about it, mirc seems the most obvious.. but may count some people out that dont understand computers all that well.  maybe you could put a browser mirc on the site? hehe just an idea.

I must commend yall on a good website though, yall have a very good setup =].

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2007, 01:51:20 PM »
Thanks for the trickstutorials.com link. I like some of their ideas, and will try to adapt them.

I agree with posting videos... there are plenty of bad pk tutorials and videos out there. I think it'd be nice to get some good ones.

SO everyone... work on your PK and video technique.

What would be more useful? A seperate beginners forum or well thought out posts in the main forums? It seems that there could be a lot of duplication. Maybe refer questions about injuries to injury forum, moves to move forum, etc? I'm not sure how much would be left.

I don't know about a formal mentoring system. Maybe we can try something informal first, see how it's working, and then go from there. How did it work at the other site?

I used to play Kingdom of Loathing. They had a bunch of chat channels, and it seemed a fairly good way to get help when you were stuck. They had a 'test' you had to pass in order to use chat. Other channels were specialized, too. There was one where every post had to be written as a haiku [5/7/5]. That was fun, but difficult, slow, and usually very cryptic.

"Lead heel clips table
Splintered wood on my backside
How do I fix Kong?"

There were usually all sorts of people hanging around in chat. Most of them were helpful. It could be very time consuming, though...






Znikal

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2007, 02:34:19 PM »
Hello there.

I see your problem and want to be of some help. I am myslef a newbie and found your site. I do have some common sence so I know that this kind of thing is dangerous to the body, and I would like to have a section on the site that explaines what to do to prevent that sort of stuff.
The stuff about a '30 day guide...' sounds really good becouse then you will get a good start and learn the basics and (hopefully) will be able to keep on by yourself.

Hope it will be of some help

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Hi I'm Znikal

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2007, 01:45:35 AM »
I personally lijke the idea of a forum for new people, but I don'tthink it works. For some reason, the problem isn't whether the informations is there, it's whether new people seek it. I think instead it has te be a manual labor on an individual basis. Look at my last three or so posts from yesterday, point someone to the thread or article thatanswers their question (usually in the FAQ) and lock the thread. anyhtign else just starts 3 new conversations a day about the same topics.

In my (limited) experience if you make a beginner thread, beginner's won't use it any more than they'll use a FAQ.

There are two kinds of people ... those whoseek information (they are not asking questions for which the answers exist, they get to a site and read EVERYTHING) and those who will ask you what color an orange is  ;D  For those people, who will ask the same questionswithout seeking the info first, we need to point them in the right direction.

If we "allow" answers in the threads, then we get 10 threads on how to start, 400 on what shoes to wear, and 50 for each move.


Maybe instead we start building a catalog of questions ...

Think about a FAQ for Kongs that has the top 20 most frequently asked questions and one or even two answers for each!


In short, I think the problem (mainly) isn't whether the info is there, but whether people looking for it can find it, and people not looking for it can be guided to it :)

I suggest that before we start to make all new info, we actually catalog the TONS of info that exists, then decide what needs to be made better. Btay has volunteered to captain this huge task (not my suggestions, the task as a whole) and for that I am extremely grateful!!

Thoughts??
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Offline SlickNic

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Re: Begginers? Not Cared for?
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2007, 04:07:50 AM »
I agree its probably not enough to just make a thread for beginners... they wont see it among the 100 other threads.. but an entirely new section for beginners on the forums.  will it actually work? im not sure but itd be interesting to find out.

and yea there are people that dont really even try to look up information, but i tell you that 'how do i start' even worked for me.  I remember joining and for some reason i didnt have the patience to read all the threads on the first page (this deals w/ almost any forum)  theres just SO MANY THREADS that i cant even imagine looking through them, so i dont.  then over time I slowly get caught up with whats there and whats not there until its just updates on what i know is there ;p. 

the problem i see happening is beginners not wanting to post questions in the beginners section(or i guess not seeing it too) and instead just posting them in normal places. or perhaps a better link to 'introducing yourself' thread so that way they feel a little more a part of the community, which will hopefully reduce the what color is an orange questions.  I remember I made a thread for myself to introduce myself when joining other communities.  come to think of it I think that the other forums had a place specifically for that, but i didnt notice it until too late.

and yes M2 a big part is the information can be there but they just wont look for it extensively.  I casually looked for it but yall dont realise just how much information is on the site.  bu i think it is a good idea pointing them in the right direction and then a lock is probably needed... altho sometimes I can take a lock a little harshly (expecially when i dont understand why), its like im not important enough to be able to respond.. but they should at least be able to respond in the thread you showed them.