Author Topic: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes  (Read 7876 times)

Offline nuclearapplepie

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Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« on: May 30, 2012, 02:12:28 PM »
Yesterday I got a pair of Asics Trainer 17:




My last shoes was a pair of adidas samba that has a real soft sole so I can be pretty flexible with my foot, especially during running, so I can easily fix my running form. Sambas aren't made for road running, people told me to change my shoes but I got used to it after a while. The sole is thin, I feel like they're ALMOST, if it's not already is, minimalist. Then this pair got torn up, and it might or might not give me shin and ankle pains ever since I try to fix my running form. So that's why I thought that I should change them


So I take the Asics on a test run. Due to its thick heel, it basically forces my heels to touch the ground, and I don't like that because I want to gradually fix my running technique; that's problem number 1.

Problem number 2 is that even though the shoes feel really light and landings feel solid, and my shins feel much less pain than usual; I can't help it but feel that somehow the shoes feel way too safe. I guess that I don't feel the ground as much as I did with the sambas.


One side of me want to exchange it in for a pair of thinner shoes, but the other side want to keep it because I don't want a pair of shoes that get worn out too quickly, and because I'm concerned about my shins and ankle pains.


So I want to ask your opinions if any of you guys have used some shoes like this before and maybe share your thoughts. So does running form gradually get fixed anyway (even with traditionalist shoes) if I put my effort into fixing it?

Offline Sam Dutton

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2012, 03:08:36 PM »
If you want to fix your running you should move around toe to heel as much as possible. Like when you are just walking around, try to have the ball of your foot make contact first. As for the shoes, these will make it difficult to have proper running technique. After these are screwed I would go back to a thinner sole, however, if you feel pain running with proper technique it is not good. You should slowly introduce proper running, as it uses some different muscles. What I did while I still had shoes like these was I starting running a little bit bairfoot everyday with proper technique. You can then slowly increase the amount of time, and by the time these are wrecked you can get minimalist shoes. I would start barefoot running on softer ground.

Offline nuclearapplepie

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2012, 03:34:00 PM »
So should I keep these? Now I suddenly don't like them that much lol

I mean, pains go away with rest, and I want some shoes that help me with my techniques(Not just running, but also precisions and rails). I'm sort of got used with the feel of the sambas, and now suddenly having this thick sole feels really awkward.

Offline Sam Dutton

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2012, 04:54:45 PM »
Well it is your choice whether to keep them or not. I know I don't like spending money on shoes very often, but if they really bother you then you might want to get thinner soled shoes. Basically all I said in my giant hunk of words before is that you should introduce proper running technique slowly, as you muscles won't be used to it if you ususally run heel-toe. And the thick   soles should. People don't tend to have giant heels. And something is happening to my keyboard again. Great. Spell check has saved you from reading a load of crap

Offline Nick Fernandez

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2012, 06:54:38 PM »
How long ago was the first time you experienced the shin/ankle pains from the Adidas shoes? Because I remember when I first switched to Feiyues my shins hurt a lot from every other time I ran. But after a while they healed up and the pain hasn't returned since. I'm not sure if that's your case if you've had them for a while though because I never really wore thick running shoes in my life other than a few months prior to getting Feiyues
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Offline nuclearapplepie

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2012, 09:37:26 AM »
I got the Adidas for a while, it's only when I started toes running my shins start to hurt. I'll probably switch them(the Asics) though because they don't feel that great.

I actually DO try to introduce proper running slowly. I tried to take 2 days a week jogging long distance to get used to the pace, the rest of the week the only running I do is warm up runs and sprints (which I do 2 days a week). But yeah, I'll try some barefoot running on grass and see how it feels.

Offline Rafe

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2012, 03:05:19 PM »
Any time you are running in traditional running you shoes you are actively destroying your natural biomechanics simple as that. Get a shoe without a wedge heel and with sufficiently minimial cushion to feel the ground.
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Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2012, 03:11:45 PM »
You're not just looking at thickness. You're also looking at heel-rise, which is slightly different. Zero-rise shoes are the target, where there is no difference in thickness between the forefoot and heel.

First:
- Be barefoot around the house
- Run barefoot when the opportunity arises (e.g. grass, sand. Not pavement, gravel, glass, etc)

With normal wear, I'm not sure how much damage you'll be doing with "traditionalist" shoes. For training however, I'd strongly advise against it since you're doing so much more. When you start looking at shoes, there is a big difference between thin and fairly thin. Feiyues are thin. Vibrams are thin. There are tons of other shoes, and they are good shoes. I've even got some of my non-parkour friends stuck on Feiyues.

I'd get something that protects your foot... not augments it or stands between its abilities and the ground.

And obviously https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkq1X9IuXps


^ Rafe, I remember seeing a video, I'm not sure if it was from you guys? There was a guy who demonstrated jumping on the sides of his feet to show that that could be trained and strengthened. I can't find the video...
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Offline Rafe

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2012, 03:37:40 PM »
Here you go Alec, I assume this is what your refering. Ido is awesome you should explore his youtube channel and his old blog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHn-Hk8OBSo

More ideas on barefoot training here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7hZlxlTlo
I shall not fear, fear is the mind killer the little death that precedes total obliteration

I will face my fear, I will let it pass over and through me and were it is gone, I will turn the inner eye and see its path, and only I will remain.

Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2012, 05:04:04 PM »
Yes that's it. Thanks!
Water conforms to the shape of it's surroundings. Do not be water. Shape your own life.

Offline nuclearapplepie

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2012, 12:47:42 PM »
I switch it in for a pair of mizuno wave universe 4.




I told the owner the Asics felt a bit out of touch, and I told him I would like a thinner sole, preferably minimalist, so I would be able to train running correctly. He told me the terms minimalist is overused, and I've been reading too much. So he gave me these and told me that "I' mean to you because you need to learn something about shoes", and he bet I would be back in three months lol.

Wasn't cheap. But these feel great in terms of weight and flexibility. It fits you guys' description, has close no heel rise, minimal front cushion and roughly minimal cushion at the heel.

I figure I'll just train in these along side with barefoot training, and when these worn out maybe I'll be able to adapt to stuff likes vibrams and merrell. But with this kind of price, I wonder why don't I just say f*** it and train barefoot lol

Offline Rafe

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 06:12:04 PM »
Looks like a decent trainer more cushion then I prefer but shouldn't mess you up to much, let me know how the grip is I need a trainer with more cushion then my minimus and vibrams for doing acro on concrete(landing a front flip drop on your heels on concrete is no fun in true minimalist shoes).

Also your shoe salesman sounds like an idiot.
I shall not fear, fear is the mind killer the little death that precedes total obliteration

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Offline Sparklefish

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 09:31:18 PM »
Rafe, how do you like the grip on Minimus?  The grip on my Vivos is disappointing.  The increased flexibility and huge toe box allows me to use my toes to overcome the poor grip on rails and such, but wall-runs are incredibly difficult. I'm thinking about getting another pair of Tigers, those are the best compromise shoe I've found.

Offline nuclearapplepie

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2012, 06:00:26 PM »
It's not a trainer in a strict sense. I was told it's a racing flat, so it's build for running at speed and maintaining that speed. Grip on concrete and wall is great, I figure it has to do with that V-shape tread pattern. I don't freerun, so I have no idea what high standards you guys have lol.

Grip on rail is a little weird though. That front tread is protruding hard rubber(like bicycle tire tread), so it's a bit slippery on rail. But since it's not totally covered in that tread(there's that triangle hole in the front), and the shoes are thin and flexible enough so I can feel that the balls of my feet are working, not just the shoes.

Also, I did my warm up today barefoot in the park! Felt great, but the shin hurts so I had to take it easy for the rest of the day.

Offline Memitchi

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2012, 07:32:17 PM »
Rafe, how do you like the grip on Minimus?  The grip on my Vivos is disappointing.  The increased flexibility and huge toe box allows me to use my toes to overcome the poor grip on rails and such, but wall-runs are incredibly difficult. I'm thinking about getting another pair of Tigers, those are the best compromise shoe I've found.

Grrrrrr. I don't know how Ryan Ford does so much stuff in Vivos, because I have a pair and the grip is next to useless. I've heard Feiyues have good grip, but they die out very quickly. I might get some of those next.

Offline Rafe

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2012, 08:04:04 PM »
The grip on the minimus is ok. I have the trail version which has a pebbled outsole which is dumb and messed up the grip for good month for me before it wore off. It grips real well on rails, and the wood in our gym and smoother concrete more porous concrete and rock is not very good, the suck in the wet. Overall I would probably give them a 3 out of 5 on grip maybe 3.5 when I really want grip I use my 5.10 daescents but I have adapted to the lower grip for the most part.
I shall not fear, fear is the mind killer the little death that precedes total obliteration

I will face my fear, I will let it pass over and through me and were it is gone, I will turn the inner eye and see its path, and only I will remain.

Offline Sparklefish

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 01:57:42 AM »
The grip on the minimus is ok. I have the trail version which has a pebbled outsole which is dumb and messed up the grip for good month for me before it wore off. It grips real well on rails, and the wood in our gym and smoother concrete more porous concrete and rock is not very good, the suck in the wet. Overall I would probably give them a 3 out of 5 on grip maybe 3.5 when I really want grip I use my 5.10 daescents but I have adapted to the lower grip for the most part.

Thanks.  I'm the same way with my Daescents.  I pull them out for special occasions, but I almost feel like I'm cheating when I do.

I think I'm going to put together a comprehensive video shoe review of all the shoes I've ever worn for parkour. 

Long story short:
1) I conditionally recommend Vivos for running and ground feel, but they have horrible grip.
2) I conditionally recommend Daescents but their grip is horrible on metal, and too good on concrete/rock/brick for some things like cats.
3) The best all-around shoe I have found for parkour/freerunning are the Asics Tigers.  Their grip is good to above average and consistent across most surfaces.  They are not a minimalist shoe, but they do not have excessive heel drop or extraneous padding.  If you spend a lot of time wearing quality true minimalist shoes and some time barefoot, you won't be completely destroying your biomechanics by wearing these for some sessions.  While they are heavier than some shoes like Vivos, they are fairly light.  On top of all that there are even vegan versions if that matters to you.

I do not recommend any other shoe.  Feiyues are expensive because they fall apart too fast and they have an extremely narrow toe box which severely reduces their value as a "barefoot" shoe.  Ariakes, Nike Frees, KOs, the 3Run shoe, the PK Gens shoe, Kalenjis, and anything else with traditional thick heel pads are no bueno.  5.10 Freerunners are among the worst shoes I've used for parkour: huge heel pads, very heavy, poor breathability, and expensive.

Offline Sam Dutton

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Re: Opinions on traditionalist vs minimalist shoes
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2012, 04:02:19 AM »
The grip on the minimus is ok. I have the trail version which has a pebbled outsole which is dumb and messed up the grip for good month for me before it wore off. It grips real well on rails, and the wood in our gym and smoother concrete more porous concrete and rock is not very good, the suck in the wet. Overall I would probably give them a 3 out of 5 on grip maybe 3.5 when I really want grip I use my 5.10 daescents but I have adapted to the lower grip for the most part.

Really? I have always found the minimus trail grip to be great after that pebble crap wore off. Even with it on, I have never slipped at all during a wall run, exept for anticlimb paint, painted wood and metal when they wet.