Author Topic: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event  (Read 11074 times)

Offline 7Erik7

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2012, 09:49:28 AM »
Again, its all opinion but a purist being someone who only practices effecient movement that specifically get you from point A - B in a quick, effecient way.

Then from there you can just start splitting hairs and trolling about what that really means, but essentially that gets embodied through "no flips, no tricking." Can flips be effecient ways to get over an object? Yes, I have seen it and heard stories of other people's versions as well... but I won't be getting in to that.

*collects all the dropped mics and puts them back on their stands.

I’d like not to get into that either because I think it’s a quite dead horse.
The ‘’efficient paradox’’..

I have to tell my point of view though. As always lol.  :P

The whole  ‘ ‘efficient ‘ ‘ discussion - or the purist discussion - I believe - comes from one of the first documenteries with David Belle (cant remember the name) when he‘s doing a backtuck from a rooftop landing on the grass, then commenting something like ''its not really parkour but since i ‘ve done gymnastics I like doing them. Its a pleasure''.

Acrobatics, movements such as palm spin, and the sitting lazy vault, lifting and throwing rocks, walking monkeywalk, and even selfdefense, pushups, crunches, is not efficient. Still its been used in France since day one by all of the founders including our dear David Belle. Acrobatics were not widely used though. It was something that they did after training for fun (as David stated in the first interview).

What has been said though varius times is that parkour is about being usefull.
Whenever you do acrobatics or ‘’inefficient’’ movements is rather irrelevant to each given situation. If someone needs your help it’s the present that matters; your ability to respond at that very moment. If you want to get over a wall its your ability to do so in that given particular situation that matters. So if you’ve done your ‘’efficient drills’’ year after year, but never apply it outside of the training, then you’re a useless practitioner and the ''efficient'' program means nothing. Nothing at all. Raymond Belle did acrobatics. So what? He have saved a lot of people. According to David he would once save a woman that was about to committ suicide by doing a huge, risky jump. Another time he would throw himself out from a window on the second floor doing a frontflip to prove his point that fear only exist in your head. Yet he is David biggest inspiration. Hell, maybe he even played football or chess! (which isnt efficient either.)

If people want to retrict themself to some sort of ''efficient program'', and tell their mates that they can't play football because its not efficient; to neglect everything that is outside of the usual thats fine. But that this would represent ''the only way'' I do not agree with. Then, its not to forget that acrobatics, or martial arts, is a dicipline in its own rights, and that tricking is something in its own rights aswell compared to parkour.

The art of expressing yourself ... through efficient movements!

That would be to rather walk around the obstacles instead of interacting with them because its more efficient.  ::)












Changing subject though, to what this thread was about. Competition.
Its obviously going to grow. Because dirt like this always grow.

There is always going to be the sort of people in the community that believe
everything is justified in parkour because there is no written rules or restrictions.
The people who damage property, trespass, act reckless, show lack of respect for other people when they practise, take part in competitions – and label all this as parkour/freerunning – they all misrepresent parkour no matter how much they try to twist it around, no matter what their opinion on the matter is, and no matter what the reason behind their actions is, because none of this goes in line with its principles and values which are central to parkour or freerunning. All this can be verified. Its not up to debate.

Denying this is as ignorant as denying that Bruce Lee founded Jeet Kun Do, that George Hérberts method teached ethical principles. Anyone who thinks different seems to always come up with extremely delusional, irrelevant answers such as ’’competition is just for fun’’, ‘’parkour is just movements’’, ‘’they’re just doing what they love’’ ’’its for camradieship…’’ because that is rather reasons (false or true reasons that said) to why people compete. It doesn’t answer the question whenever it misrepresents parkour and why it does/doesn’t.

What all these people seems to have in common though is that they want to steer away from discussing this. Many seems to get upset when questions regarding competition is raised.  Many of them seems to lack even in the most basic knowledge.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 10:00:51 AM by 7Erik7 »

Offline Ian Want

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2012, 10:10:06 AM »
K, well enjoy your training.

Parkour/free running/gymnastics/dance/ tricking... JUST MOVEMENT IN GENERAL has brought me much happiness and when I tell some one I do parkour or freeruning, I know what that means to me and to be honest, I don't enjoy sitting around being told my beliefs on what makes me HAPPY are delusional.

No matter how many times you tell me that your beliefs are not "debatable" and are fact, guess what, man...  they are. Because the movement and life style it has created is bigger then a couple of guys in France writing papers on what THEIR OPINIONS on the movement is.

You know why they are debatable? Because other people say so. Because they don't see the world as you do and I hope you find whatever happiness your looking for in trolling forums trying to get people to be mad or change how they see everything. I won't be responding to any posts in your threads. So you can keep arguing if you'd like... but youd be talking to yourself my friend.

Offline 7Erik7

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2012, 12:41:26 PM »
K, well enjoy your training.

Parkour/free running/gymnastics/dance/ tricking... JUST MOVEMENT IN GENERAL has brought me much happiness and when I tell some one I do parkour or freeruning, I know what that means to me and to be honest, I don't enjoy sitting around being told my beliefs on what makes me HAPPY are delusional.

No matter how many times you tell me that your beliefs are not "debatable" and are fact, guess what, man...  they are. Because the movement and life style it has created is bigger then a couple of guys in France writing papers on what THEIR OPINIONS on the movement is.

You know why they are debatable? Because other people say so. Because they don't see the world as you do and I hope you find whatever happiness your looking for in trolling forums trying to get people to be mad or change how they see everything. I won't be responding to any posts in your threads. So you can keep arguing if you'd like... but youd be talking to yourself my friend.

Movements have brought me happiness aswell. Of course freerunning have a different meaning for everyone. For some its for leisure, for some to keep in shape, for some its to lose weight, for some to really push their potential, and for some its just a lifestyle which aren’t separated from anything else in life, and for some - I don't know - you tell me. Very personal really. Very free and liberating, and not only that, but its changing all the time. Its not... pure.

So yes – only you can tell what parkour is for you, and what it means for you, and what makes you happy. Yet then, all this is once again always changing. Sometimes it may mean less and sometimes more. Sometimes maybe nothing othertimes everything.

But I do not agree with you when you say that your personal beliefs, general opinions about parkour, is facts. Because they are not. It’s highly personal opinions. You say that just because a few guys in France 'wrote on papers' what their opinions on movement is, that means nothing. This is of course true. Because there is no ‘’wrong’’ or ‘’right’’ way of doing movements. Movements is 100 % free. Otherwise it would be like if came with rules on ''the right way to walk'' and considered that as some kind of absolute truth that everyone has to obey. So you are right; movements is free.

But here is the rubb;

Parkour is not simply another name for movements. Even though its based on movements. It’s a name that represents what these nine guys developed in France back in the early 80s. Then if we call it parkour, freerunning, or art du déplacement - does not really matter of course. What matters is that what they developed were defined by a certain way of thinking and training which became known as parkour and freerunning.

So its not really not a certificate for movements. It’s a cert for what was created in France, which is today known as parkour and freerunning. This is why I can say that certain things represents it [parkour, freerunning] properly, and why i can say some things represents it incorrectly, or negative. This is why I can discard competitions. This is why I can discard the kids who damage property or show lack of respect to people. This is why I can say it's wrong, its negative, its not good for the dicipline.

Now, if you wish to go directly against the very core principles and values of parkour and freerunning that's your choice. Its your life, take it or leave it really. No one can judge you and tell you that your principles are wrong or that your movements are wrong. But if you represent this as parkour or freerunning, then, I can tell you: ''It's not what parkour is about. You're misrepresenting it.'' and misrepresenting something is wrong.

So I am not talking about movements. I am talking about what was developed in France. This is one of the reasons to why the ADAPT was created: To make sure that parkour were passed to other generations. To make sure it would not fade away, be diluted, and its meaning lost. You can work for this and help it to grow or you can work against it and help it to get diluted.

So it's all down to representation. You can go to competitions and represent it as parkour/freerunning and you'll be representing it incorrectly. You can go to a competition that isn't accocieted directly with parkour/freerunning and you're representing neither bad or good. You can act out of thought and just do as you please aswell. The minority of the people who got parkour banned in Moreton, New York, etcetc. had the same choice.  So the competition itself is not the problem. I could possibly take a part myself for pleasure (but not for a goal) but I don't, for a clear reason.

Since this site is named after parkour, freerunning, people will see it as a freerunning/parkour site. And it is. And it does indeed represent parkour in a very positive fashion. At the same time, it does not, because it represents rubbish such competitions which does not and have never been accociated with it parkour, add, freerunning- whatever.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 12:59:13 PM by 7Erik7 »

Offline DeAndre Walker

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2012, 01:19:14 PM »
I may be (and I probably am) speaking out of a lack of knowledge and pure ignorance and I apologize beforehand. I haven't done any of the research that you have done so I dont expect to change anyones mind and I dont wish to start an argument by any means, I only want to kind of give you something to think about. The practice of parkour is essentially moving from point A to point B as efficiently as possible and is derived from an art that was learned as a way of escaping danger; surviving, if you will (there's that ignorance). Now to my point (and this is just me talkin crazy here), imagine the purest traceur, that is encountering a straight line of countless obstacles, all the same shape and size. After approaching these obstacles enough times there will be one, most efficient way to overcome the obstacles, which will become the "purest" movement to use in the situation. Now imagine that after having the same shape and size, the dimensions of the obstacles dramatically change. Will the traceur not have to change his movement in order to overcome the new obstacle as efficiently as possible? Will the traceur not have to adapt, and change his movements? If it is a life or death situation, how can the traceur survive if he wishes to use the same, "pure" movement that he has established? Imagine the traceur as parkour and the movement as the philosophies, values, disciplines, and practice of parkour in the strictest definition. I have enormous respect for the founders and their wishes; however, I do believe that life is about survival of the fittest. If parkour (by definition of the founders and other purists) continues with the adamant immovability of it's disciplines than it is doomed to "die out". The truth is, our generation only does things they think are cool. If they only do it because it looks fun then I think that is the gateway to them learning the true meaning of parkour. Sometimes the stimulus for that is competition, I admit I didn't really pursue "parkour" until I watched a Barclaycard Freerun Championship years ago. As I got more into it I learned more about parkour as an art and not a sport. As you stated parkour is not a competitive sport, but I don't think holding these competitive are the worst thing in the world. I think so far they've been executed very well and have not caused any negative representation of what we do (to those who do not know what parkour is). Just a thought. Sorry this is so long...
Do Work!

Offline 7Erik7

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2012, 08:29:44 AM »
The competitions isn't a problem at all. Claiming that competition is 'wrong' is very subjective and cannot be regarded as 'true' or 'false'.
The problem with competition is that they're labeled as parkour/freerunning. This is not a good representation of the dicipline because
it is not competetive. This, however, is not an opinion - it is a fact because it can be verified by prior history. Like saying Finland is a land, or that parkour is about movements, its all facts, no matter what opinions people have on the matter. It's like, you can't wobble around with facts if you're doing a research in school or university and defend these facts with statements such as 'because its fun', you don't decide that' or whatsoever.

The competitions are also full of contradictionary statements. Anyone who contradicts are often met with the response ''because its fun''. This is of course not a valid argument because it isn't relevant to the question. Or the phrase ''It's not competetive, we just have fun'', while at the same time, you see lines in the newspaper claiming the ''Elite'' freerunners are gathered here and there'', ''person X won the competition and is now a world champion''. Of course its to be taken with a pinch of salt but it SCREAMS commercialism. A good amount of this points to elitism and self-nominated awards.

Regarding ''purists'' I don't understand the phrase. If its meant to mean those who focus on efficient moves then its not true; neither taking a dump or eating is not efficient. Nor is playing fotball, sleeping, sitting in front of the computer, drinking a cup of tea, practicing martial arts..in most cases when training its even more efficient to WALK around obstacles. The keypoint is not efficiency but rather being usefull. Then acrobatics is another thing and its neither parkour or freerunning. Its a diciplne in its own rights. And just because you implement it into your parkour doesn't mean you're suddenly freerunning or that you aren't a traceur. Because by that logic none in the Yamakasi would be traceurs, including David Belle, because he’s a martial artist, gymnast, and he also play basketball.

So really, what’s wrong is not the competitions, but how the people who are behind it seriously believe that it is a part of parkour/freerunning and commercialize it as such. Horrible representation. And of course their very vague and mostly pathetic statements to why it would be a part of parkour which has no scientific evidence at all, and often has no probative either. Shamefull that American Parkour openly endorse and encourage this.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 08:33:10 AM by 7Erik7 »