Author Topic: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event  (Read 11069 times)

Offline 7Erik7

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Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« on: January 05, 2012, 12:36:21 AM »
February 2011

''Parkour UK in its role as the National Governing Body for the sport of Parkour / Freerunning would like to issue the following statement regarding the event entitled Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ which will take place on Sunday 20th March 2011,
6 – 9pm at the Royal National Theatre, London UK.

Parkour UK is in no way affiliated with Red Bull or the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ event and its opinion as the National Governing Body is that the event does not accurately reflect the core principles and values of Parkour / Freerunning. Parkour UK, believes the ethos, philosophy and spirit of Parkour to be concerned with individual strength and well-being and that the sport should be practised in an environment of co-operation and not competition.''



Note for Editors:


''The sport originally termed Art du Deplacement, now also referred to as Parkour or Freerunning, was founded in France in the 1980s by a group of nine young men who called themselves The Yamakasi. Yamakasi is a Lingala word loosely meaning 'Strong Man, Strong Spirit', and summed up the original and still core aim of the discipline - to be a strong individual: physically, mentally and ethically.

The Yamakasi founders were Yann Hnautra, Chau Belle, David Belle, Laurent Piemontesi, Sebastain Foucan, Guylain N'Guba Boyeke, Charles Perriere, Malik Diouf and Williams Belle. The term ‘Parkour’ was first introduced by David Belle in 1998. Parkour derives from the French word Parcours meaning ‘route’ or ‘course’
The term ‘Freerunning’ was the creation of Guillaume Pelletier, a representative of a group of French practitioners involved in the production of a Channel 4 documentary, Jump London, in 2003. This term was used in order to communicate this amazing new sport to an English-speaking audience. As Parkour UK is a sport’s National Governing Body (NGB), we refer to Parkour as being a Sport. Our description*, of Parkour as a Sport is:''


What is Parkour / Freerunning / Art du Deplacement?

• Parkour / Freerunning / Art du Deplacement is the non-competitive physical discipline of training to move freely over and through any terrain using only the abilities of the body, principally through running, jumping, climbing and quadrupedal movement. In practice it focuses on developing the fundamental attributes required for such movement, which include functional strength and fitness, balance, spatial awareness, agility, coordination, precision, control and creative vision.

• It is a sport that encourages self-improvement on all levels, revealing one’s physical and mental limits while simultaneously offering ways to overcome them. It is a method of training one’s body and mind in order to be as completely functional, effective and liberated as possible in any environment.

• The sport aims to build confidence, determination, self-discipline and self-reliance, and responsibility for one’s actions. It encourages humility, respect for others and for one’s environment, self-expression, community spirit, and the importance of play, discovery and safety at all times.

The description above is to describe Parkour as a sport and does not fully describe the art / discipline / philosophy of Parkour as a whole.

*The description of Parkour as a Sport is currently under consultation and is open to amendments. This definition is to define the sport of Parkour and not the discipline / art / philosophy as a whole. Amendments’ can be submitted to Parkour UK by 30th June 2011.



Parkour UK 7th Floor, 90 High Holborn, London WC1V 6XX
www.parkouruk.org



For PDF:
http://www.parkouruk.org/download/redbull.pdf

Offline Ryan Sannar

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 09:39:28 AM »
This is very very well written, thanks for the info.
10 push ups.

Offline Ian Want

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2012, 12:00:36 PM »
Its been a while since I read this so I thought I would hit it up again.

They are saying the event doesn't reflect the core values and principles of the sport, which may be true. It doesn't REFLECT them to the public very well.

However, (IN MY OPINION) I think that the Red Bull AoM is a very good presentation of cooperation. Its companies, athletes, and fans all coming together to have a good time, watching/doing what they all love!

Athletes doing what they do for tons of people.
Fans having a great time watching something insanely cool.
A company sponsoring something WE ALL LOVE, and getting some advertising in during the event.

Does Red Bull's presence REALLY change what everyone is there for? How they see it? What makes the event awesome? If we wanted PK/Free Running on the world stage so people could make a living doing what they love, SOME ONE had to sponsor an event like this. At least it wasn't something silly like Microsoft or Google. RB is at least relevant with what we are doing. (Keep in mind I said RELEVANT... not necessary.)

Offline 7Erik7

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 12:16:48 AM »
Its been a while since I read this so I thought I would hit it up again.

They are saying the event doesn't reflect the core values and principles of the sport, which may be true. It doesn't REFLECT them to the public very well.

However, (IN MY OPINION) I think that the Red Bull AoM is a very good presentation of cooperation. Its companies, athletes, and fans all coming together to have a good time, watching/doing what they all love!

Athletes doing what they do for tons of people.
Fans having a great time watching something insanely cool.
A company sponsoring something WE ALL LOVE, and getting some advertising in during the event.

Does Red Bull's presence REALLY change what everyone is there for? How they see it? What makes the event awesome? If we wanted PK/Free Running on the world stage so people could make a living doing what they love, SOME ONE had to sponsor an event like this. At least it wasn't something silly like Microsoft or Google. RB is at least relevant with what we are doing. (Keep in mind I said RELEVANT... not necessary.)

I see your point, and of course there is good things about competition. But the problem is that competition doesn't neccessary go in line with long term training, not showing off/impressing people, and the core built of altruism etc. The other obvious problem is that its not a parkour competition. Its a competition restricted to movements representing itself as a parkour/freerunning competition. So in that case its not true at all. These people are liars because of that and also because its not a world champion competition, because not everyone is present.

Parkour isn't supposed to be cool. I don't think the fact that people want to do a living out of what they love is an argument for competition. It's a reason, and that reason rather have to do with ego. Ego doesn't justify it. Nor does 'having fun' justify it.

And yes, competition do change the view people have. Parkour is generally seen as a performance aspect in the media which glorify roof jumping and acrobatics. Look on youtube. People upload seems to upload videos just in order to show off their skills, with no real purpose than just that. Because I honestly don't think many people think ''Hmm, why do I want to upload a videos?'' You ask them about the origins of parkour and they will most likely understand nothing or refer to Jackie Chan or something. You question them more, they may tell you not to argue but to train (yet they dont know what they train and yet they call it parkour) If you could see why they did acrobatics, the answer would most likely be because it looks cool. There is no doubt why there is so many injuries. Just look at the injury section at this board. Then think about all non-reported injuries.

Competition isn't going to spread the principles of parkour. Its going to spread the competitors personal principles about it, and it does not go in line with parkour. As a matter of fact it goes in the opposite direction.

First, do not allow any cameras or specators. Throw away the red bull can. No talking either. Let these competitor go hungry 24 hours, with no food, no water - nothing. Then put them through hard physical conditioning until their muscles pump battery acid and they can barely walk. Let them walk in monkeywalk until their hands, feet blister and bleed, and their muscles hurt. Let them crawl through dirt until their fancy clothes isn't visible. Inflict pain on all of them, then let them train alone in the woods while its cold and raining for a few hours. Then then can all go home, change clothes, take a icecold shower and sleep on the floor instead of in the bed. Since they're eager to prove themself, and since they're World Champions, they better prove themself in front of themself only, with no form of recognizion or reward. You put yourself through all this just for yourself.

So if these people really wanna label themself as World Champions and stop being hypocritic showoffs just looking for a good time and personal pleasure, please, they can at do some of the basics of parkour. Why not hitup with David and learn the real parkour? See if these people last for a week with him.

Not trying to say I am better than someone else. Just saying that these people don't have a clue what they're talking about. At least I don't go around and brag about myself and glamorize myself in the media and/or label myself as some kind of master, and at the same time saying: Its a competition but its not uh, a competition.

If they want to do it for real let them do it for real.

I realize many people see parkour as a form of physical movement only. Some people in the competition aspect sometimes argue its- 'doing what you want'. This is not true. It is by fact a certain method of training and thinking that derives from various sources such as George Hérberts teachings. Its the same with the people who believe Jeet Kun Do is ''doing what you want''. This is not true either. As a matter of fact there is a reason why Bruce Lee gave out ranking systems and a certification. Its the same thing with parkour. There is a certain understanding of it.


So the conclusion is: These people understand less of parkour than what I do.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 01:00:09 AM by 7Erik7 »

Offline Jason C. Astor

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 07:06:42 AM »
"First, do not allow any cameras or specators. Throw away the red bull can. No talking either. Let these competitor go hungry 24 hours, with no food, no water - nothing. Then put them through hard physical conditioning until their muscles pump battery acid and they can barely walk. Let them walk in monkeywalk until their hands, feet blister and bleed, and their muscles hurt. Let them crawl through dirt until their fancy clothes isn't visible. Inflict pain on all of them, then let them train alone in the woods while its cold and raining for a few hours. Then then can all go home, change clothes, take a icecold shower and sleep on the floor instead of in the bed. Since they're eager to prove themself, and since they're World Champions, they better prove themself in front of themself only, with no form of recognizion or reward. You put yourself through all this just for yourself."

This actually sounds fun to me!!

You should go on youtube and check out "MovNat" then go buy a book about Kung-Fu, then meditate, then realize how competitive you actually are, then go do all the things you were talking about up top. Then search the web for ANY of the original Yamakazi boys saying AoM competitions are bad. Then look Up Sebastian Foucon "Dancing on Ice" which is a competition

Just saying
David Belle once robbed a bank and left all the money on the Roof. He just wanted to prove that he could overcome any "Vault"..

"Those who lack the Courage will always find a Philosophy to justify it" -Camus

Offline Ian Want

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2012, 11:31:46 AM »
RBAoM never says they are a parkour competition anyways. Its about enjoying movement. Also, RBAoM actually does a decent job of representing as many different athlete backgrounds as possible, not just parkour. There are gymnasts, divers, dancers, trickers, parkour athletes, and all of them have a specialty that is usually unmatched by any of the other competitors.

Well imagine that you love movement, and you want to do it for the rest of your life. You need to earn money WHILE doing it to justify what you love to do and justify doing it every day. RBAoM offers a chance for these talented people to do that.

And whats wrong with people doing parkour because it looks cool. They are allowed to want to try it because it looks cool. Nobody wants to do something that looks lame. Also, I would like to point out Dylan Baker's reason for starting parkour during his interview for Jump city Seattle; he saw it in Casino Royale and said to himself "Thats some dangerous crap." So there you have a very talented guy who started for a non-philisohpical reason.

I just don't think you can lessen the worth of an athlete's resolve or ability based on what reason they have for starting parkour. The ones who love and care for it will stay, the ones who don't will move on. This is life.

As far as becoming a champion for yourself, of coarse they want to do that. And them being "hypocrite showoffs"? They haven't done anything hypocritical. And as far as show offs... if they do a performance, like RB or anything like that they HAVE to show off. Thats the point of a performance. David Belle shows off when he does his movies like the B13 series or when he performed in Prince of Persia.

Also, David Belle is a recluse when it comes to training. People can't just go and "hit up David Belle".

The media brands it as a competition. The athletes do not. IF they refer to it as a competition its because it is easier for people to grasp what AoM is because if you tell someone "Its just a big event where friends come together and jam in front of a bunch of people, and judges will say who won at the end." People wont usually understand. So what is easier to tell them? A competition.

So what you are ULTIMATELY SAYING is your arguing over the name. You don't want people doing what ever movement they enjoy and call it parkour. Thats really all your saying.

We all know the difference of PK and FR, we've heard the dumb argument a thousand times. The way I see it is either you appreciate all forms of movement and strive to learn from them all or you sit and argue definitions every day.

Parkour started something great... the next generation will be doing something even greater though. Blurring the lines between all forms of movement, dance, tricking, flips, parkour, stunt work etcetcetc. Eventually, there won't be "parkour". There will only be movement.


Offline 7Erik7

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2012, 12:56:03 AM »

Then search the web for ANY of the original Yamakazi boys saying AoM competitions are bad. Then look Up Sebastian Foucon "Dancing on Ice" which is a competition

Just saying

Dancing on Ice isn't labeled as a freerunning/parkour competition. So it doesn't really matter. Its iceskating.

The ADAPT certificate is developed some of the Yamakasi guys. Generation isn't the driving factor behind that. Parkour UK simply present all this. It clearly stated its opinions on competition. The ADAPT certificate holds the absolute facts regarding principles about competitions and so on because its developed by the founders. Wikipedia, or your own personal opinions does not neccesary do that.


RBAoM never says they are a parkour competition anyways. Its about enjoying movement. Also, RBAoM actually does a decent job of representing as many different athlete backgrounds as possible, not just parkour. There are gymnasts, divers, dancers, trickers, parkour athletes, and all of them have a specialty that is usually unmatched by any of the other competitors.

Well imagine that you love movement, and you want to do it for the rest of your life. You need to earn money WHILE doing it to justify what you love to do and justify doing it every day. RBAoM offers a chance for these talented people to do that.

And whats wrong with people doing parkour because it looks cool. They are allowed to want to try it because it looks cool. Nobody wants to do something that looks lame. Also, I would like to point out Dylan Baker's reason for starting parkour during his interview for Jump city Seattle; he saw it in Casino Royale and said to himself "Thats some dangerous crap." So there you have a very talented guy who started for a non-philisohpical reason.

I just don't think you can lessen the worth of an athlete's resolve or ability based on what reason they have for starting parkour. The ones who love and care for it will stay, the ones who don't will move on. This is life.

As far as becoming a champion for yourself, of coarse they want to do that. And them being "hypocrite showoffs"? They haven't done anything hypocritical. And as far as show offs... if they do a performance, like RB or anything like that they HAVE to show off. Thats the point of a performance. David Belle shows off when he does his movies like the B13 series or when he performed in Prince of Persia.

Also, David Belle is a recluse when it comes to training. People can't just go and "hit up David Belle".

The media brands it as a competition. The athletes do not. IF they refer to it as a competition its because it is easier for people to grasp what AoM is because if you tell someone "Its just a big event where friends come together and jam in front of a bunch of people, and judges will say who won at the end." People wont usually understand. So what is easier to tell them? A competition.

So what you are ULTIMATELY SAYING is your arguing over the name. You don't want people doing what ever movement they enjoy and call it parkour. Thats really all your saying.

We all know the difference of PK and FR, we've heard the dumb argument a thousand times. The way I see it is either you appreciate all forms of movement and strive to learn from them all or you sit and argue definitions every day.

Parkour started something great... the next generation will be doing something even greater though. Blurring the lines between all forms of movement, dance, tricking, flips, parkour, stunt work etcetcetc. Eventually, there won't be "parkour". There will only be movement.

Yes, they do label themself as freerunning/parkour competitions. Its all on Red Bulls official site, listen to the athletes, and look at the marketing for it. I don't care if they enjoy movements or not. How they represent parkour is what matters. Just because they enjoy it doesn't mean they represent parkour in a good way.

I have never said its something wrong to be into parkour because it looks cool. That's the reason why I started with it. But I expect experienced people to change their mindset when they train. If you've been into parkour for four years and haven't got a grasp of this then you clearly don't understand parkour. Its the athletes fault that they misrepresent parkour because they're the driven factor behind the competitions. You can't always blame media or Redbull. They're doing business, and the athletes are interested in that for personal gains (fun, meeting people, impressing people) on the expense of misrepresenting parkour.

I am not going to argue the ''difference'' between parkour and freerunning because its not relevant to the discussion.

I am not talking about whenever people do acrobatics, dance etc. I am simply stating the fact that the atheltes that compete at the Art Of Motion does not represent parkour or freerunning properly and these competition has no place in parkour of freerunning. Yet they label them as that. The driving factors behind their reason for doing it is irrelevant in this case.

Yet again, parkour isn't the act of just moving, its a certain way of thinking and training. That's what defines it for real and it can all be verified. The athletes at the AoM lacks in the proper understanding - because you know - there is a proper understanding.

Offline UWin

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2012, 01:30:05 AM »
This thread just became interesting, I am going to sub for more.
I do not really want to add my own rant...I mean...opinion...because apparently we do not have a clue as to what we are all talking about, and we understand less about Parkour than what he does. ::)
However...

This is what I told a traceur I train with a few days ago when he asked me about something similar:
"Personally I do not care about sponsorship, affiliations, organizations, commercialization, [competitions], or clothing & apparel. As I do Parkour like I do Martial Arts, to know how to use it and not to use it, and to be able to use it when I have to, like in a mugging or such..." Expanding on this (I might start to get repetitious though):
Personally I do not practice Parkour, Free-running, and Martial Arts to show off, look cool, or compete. I practice them so that I have Parkour & Martial Skills when they are needed; for mental, physical and spiritual discipline & focus; to get myself active, and healthy; to have fun; to socialize and meet new and interesting people from various parts of the world, and walks of life.

I believe that, like non-competitive/self-defense martial arts, True Parkour is a tool to be used in certain situations to help/save yourself or others; and that if it is not being used for one of these purposes you are either: training, Free-running, competing, playing/having fun (e.g. "walking" around town, hiking, tag, capture the flag, manhunt, and etc), or showing off to people...
But if someone takes up a discipline because they want to compete, show off, or look cool, why complain about it? It is their freedom, right, and choice to do so (how ever shallow of a choice that might seem.) At least they are doing something with their life/time, and share a common interest, even if it is not for the same reasons or with the same understanding you have. You will still find comradery, or friendship, from the fact that they train in the same, or similar discipline, as you. Instead of them sitting around being a couch potato & playing video games, or on their computer, all of the time and doing nothing with their life/body (asides from working), these people are getting up, moving, and living a real and fulfilled life.

To me comparing Parkour to Free-running is like comparing Jeet Kune Do to Taekwondo (or Judo, or some other competitive martial art/sport). Yes both are Martial disciplines, but Jeet Kune Do (Parkour), is meant for real life situations which can occur anywhere, anyplace, anytime, for any reason. Whereas Taekwondo (Free-running) can be set ranks, styles, forms, movements, and techniques which can be trained to only be done competitively (however this does not mean that they are only competitive disciplines). But I think that to be able to do both disciplines, non-competitive and competitive, fluently & effectively refines you into a more skillful and well rounded practitioner.

Finally, all of this sounds like how to train for Parkour as well:
"practicality, flexibility, speed, and efficiency."
"he [Bruce Lee] constantly adapted, including fencing and basic boxing techniques." (Substitute dance, acrobatics, gymnastics, or whatever for adapting your Parkour training.)
"a philosophy and martial art he [Bruce Lee] would come to call Jeet Kune Do or the Way of the Intercepting Fist. It is a term he would later regret, because Jeet Kune Do implied specific parameters that styles connote; whereas the idea of his martial art was to exist outside of parameters and limitations."
From my understanding of Parkour, and JKD, this does not mean 'doing what you want' to do. But doing what you are able to do, or have to do, within a situation to resolve it.

So yeah...conclusion:
1) I think that there can be Free-Running, or Art of Motion, competitions because it is a "free" discipline which involves certain basic to advanced movements (more of which are always being invented and added), and acrobatics which can be judged for quality, creativity, flow, speed, efficiency, style, and so on. These competitions can declare the winner (lol ;)) as the competition champion, but not the world champion, world's greatest, or decide whether or not someone has achieved mastery status. As the winner has only beaten, or done better than, those particular people; in their particular mental & physical state; attending that particular competition; at that particular spot; on that particular date.........(particular ;D)
2) I believe that there cannot ever be Parkour competitions (<-by definition an oxymoron), or a World Parkour Champion because, like Jeet Kune Do, it is not a set rigid discipline developed for sport or competition it is an adaptable discipline for resolution of a particular conflict/situation. And that someone can train to do the "list of movements" all they like in their training spots, on their best days, but that does not mean they can do Parkour. Because when it comes down to it, they might just freeze up, not act, and then those months/years of training were for naught.

Extra links & references:
http://judoinfo.com/sport.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Jeet_Kune_Do
http://www.parkourtrain.net/parkour-terminology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOYKME-WOZo&list=PL78E13481BE2F0454&index=3&feature=plpp_video

P.S. Jackie Chan, and the TMNT, are freaking awesome! As a child (4+) I imitated them, their movements, and their stunts long before I heard of, or understood anything about Parkour & Free-running, or even had access to the internet. Although Jackie Chan has nothing do to with the origins of Parkour as we know it, he is just awesome as tits, and I love him like tits... :P

P.S.S. I might edit this later for proper coherence, as I just finished a training session, it is getting REALLY late now, and I am starting to get tired.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 01:55:09 AM by Undeclared Winner »

Offline Ian Want

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2012, 11:42:19 PM »
its as simple as this;

people have their own reasons and philosophies for training movement.

No one can change them, and squabbling over how they train, or learn about what theyre doing, or portray it, is something you cant control.

To me, accepting their differences is one of the greater lessons to be learned through parkour. That "people will do things differently then you."
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 11:12:27 AM by Ian Want »

Offline UWin

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2012, 02:48:29 AM »
its as simple as this;

people have their own reasons and philosophies for training movement.

No one can change them, and squabbling over how they train or learn about what their doing or portray it is something you cant control.

To me, accepting their differences is one of the greater lessons to be learned through parkour. That "people will do things differently then you."
:) +1.
Also, slightly altered:
"Accepting differences is one of the greater lessons to be learned throughout life, and that people will do things differently than you."

Offline 7Erik7

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 02:56:26 AM »
I am really not saying that I am some sort of person that ‘’knows it all’’. The things here is quite simple; my knowledge about parkour and my opinion on whenever its bad or good to represent parkour may be different than others.

If someone questioned the fact that parkour is about movements I would say that this person lack in understanding of it. If someone stated that parkour or freerunning is competitive, I would say the same thing. Because the historical facts goes directly against these two statements.

Both of these two very simple two principles are central to parkour and freerunning. I had roughly been training for a few weerks when I learned this by watching one of the first documentaries Generation Yamakasi. I did the best I could to watch (and understand) as many documentaries with the founders as possible. I read all kinds of written articles; watched all kinds of valuable videos. I bought books that I read through a few times. I wrote my own notes, started to gather information from all these documentaries, quotes, articles, books, and videos, and I did a lot of side research to all this. I tried to absorb as much as possible to gain further knowledge of parkour.

I honestly don’t believe everyone do this. I have seen so many people start to talk about competitions such as they were a central part of parkour or freerunning. They have directly the opposite knowledge of what I have. Many of them come up with statements that goes directly against what they founders have said at the Rendevouz meetings.

Is this due to lack of knowledge of pure ignorance?

Both, I believe.

There is probably a part in the community that have studied parkour and understand the concept (e.i principles, values) but they ignore it for the sake of selfish actions, such as going to competitions to promote themselves (so than can live for it), have fun, and impress others. So competitions is for these people not about how they represent parkour, but rather the question if its good for them or not. Then, there is maybe a small part of the community that believe parkour actually is competitive and have a mindset and understanding that is more similar to the mainstream than anything else. Their aim is to promote themselves via Youtube Showreels while hoping to get invited to competitions if they get recognized.

I get the feeling that many people just move. Just do movements, just do physical drills, and neglect to study. This is not wrong. I did that in the early beginning aswell. I was moving more than using my head. But for World Champion I expect more than this, for someone who want to represent parkour on big scale, I expect more than this. A person who only move but never study will only be looking at surface level. This person will never even come close to a proper understanding. Like with Jeet Kun Do, or indeed anything else, it has to be studied.

Then, of course no one can change these people. But raising the question is a good beginning.

Either way, the reason for promoting a competition is quite irrelevant. If it’s being done it misrepresent parkour and freerunning no matter if the actions are selfish or not, no matter of its out of ignorance or lack of understanding. What really baffles me is that there is people who have been practising a lot longer than me who take a part in these competitions and label themselves as World Champions. Is this due to lack of knowledge or ignorance?

Offline Ian Want

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 05:05:44 PM »
Philosophies change. Methods of study change. This is shown in everything including martial arts. Good you have done your research, but what happened in the past isnt always the best thing for modern times.

Good morals, but the world moves fast.

Nothing wrong with your beliefs besides i feel you handle them among other beliefs in a negative way. But keeping your mind open to progress makes you great and helps you survive. I feel this goes for training, philosophy, and the progression of parkour into the mainstream spotlight.

Stick to those morals but there is no reason you cant do big things and be a becon of positivity in what you believe to be a corrupted system.

Offline 7Erik7

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2012, 12:28:13 AM »
Philosophies change. Methods of study change. This is shown in everything including martial arts. Good you have done your research, but what happened in the past isnt always the best thing for modern times.

Good morals, but the world moves fast.

Nothing wrong with your beliefs besides i feel you handle them among other beliefs in a negative way. But keeping your mind open to progress makes you great and helps you survive. I feel this goes for training, philosophy, and the progression of parkour into the mainstream spotlight.

Stick to those morals but there is no reason you cant do big things and be a becon of positivity in what you believe to be a corrupted system.

That’s true, everything changes, even ourselves.

However, there is one truth about parkour: It is what it is; What happened in the past resulted in parkour being developed. So the past is rather highly important.

The method of training, the ethical values and principles is central to the discipline, no matter what someone personally think and prefer, and if one neglect them, its not parkour any more. Its just an empty substance. It becomes just that: physical movements. No more no less. Like tricking, or like.. walking or freeclimbing.

There is actually an extremely similar misconception with Jeet Kun Do. Both Jeet Kun Do and parkour is not a complete method, nor is it just a collection of movements. There is no rules or restrictions. Its really about following your own way. Its here some people made the misconception that Jeet Kun Do was/is some kind of delusional method, that kinda means ’’doing whatever you want’’. This is not true. There is a certificate for Jeet Kun Do created by its founder. Bruce Lee himself certified three students before his death. A certain standard, a certain understanding was required in order to obtain it. Simple as that.

While I once was against certifications in parkour/freerunning I do now realize that it’s a must do. What if the athletes at Red Bull created it? Or UF? It has to be done by the founders, then by other traceurs, and last the Red Bull athletes. I prefer the first option though and I wish the third, and the last wasn't an option at all, but unfortunately it is, or was.

I am now glad that many of the founders, Davids former students, and people from Generations created the first and only certificate (A.D.A.P.T) for parkour / freerunning, along with a National Governing Body (Parkour UK). In this way parkour will be passed on to other generations and not forgotten or faded out into something else by crap (as Stephane stated in an interview) such as competitions and such which this site represent with a smile along with many others.

Problem is, competitions is going to grow. More people is going to take the easy cool, easy route. I am sure of that.. Very contra-productive for the development of parkour, and that is why I dont quite understand why sites such as this one represent all this. Its a shame, really.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 12:34:03 AM by 7Erik7 »

Offline Ryan Sannar

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2012, 06:59:59 AM »
APEX, Primal Fitness and I'm pretty sure Parkour Visions all offer certifications. I believe there is a seperate certification from the British Parkour Coaching Association as well.
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Offline Jason C. Astor

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 07:57:37 AM »
That’s true, everything changes, even ourselves.

However, there is one truth about parkour: It is what it is; What happened in the past resulted in parkour being developed. So the past is rather highly important.

The method of training, the ethical values and principles is central to the discipline, no matter what someone personally think and prefer, and if one neglect them, its not parkour any more. Its just an empty substance. It becomes just that: physical movements. No more no less. Like tricking, or like.. walking or freeclimbing.

There is actually an extremely similar misconception with Jeet Kun Do. Both Jeet Kun Do and parkour is not a complete method, nor is it just a collection of movements. There is no rules or restrictions. Its really about following your own way. Its here some people made the misconception that Jeet Kun Do was/is some kind of delusional method, that kinda means ’’doing whatever you want’’. This is not true. There is a certificate for Jeet Kun Do created by its founder. Bruce Lee himself certified three students before his death. A certain standard, a certain understanding was required in order to obtain it. Simple as that.

While I once was against certifications in parkour/freerunning I do now realize that it’s a must do. What if the athletes at Red Bull created it? Or UF? It has to be done by the founders, then by other traceurs, and last the Red Bull athletes. I prefer the first option though and I wish the third, and the last wasn't an option at all, but unfortunately it is, or was.

I am now glad that many of the founders, Davids former students, and people from Generations created the first and only certificate (A.D.A.P.T) for parkour / freerunning, along with a National Governing Body (Parkour UK). In this way parkour will be passed on to other generations and not forgotten or faded out into something else by crap (as Stephane stated in an interview) such as competitions and such which this site represent with a smile along with many others.

Problem is, competitions is going to grow. More people is going to take the easy cool, easy route. I am sure of that.. Very contra-productive for the development of parkour, and that is why I dont quite understand why sites such as this one represent all this. Its a shame, really.

ooohhhhhh!!! You sir do not speak of Jeet Kune Do or Bruce Lee! Bruce did name succesors to JKD but only so that future generations would know his stance on the matter, not so they could keep it pure. Purity was infact what he was trying to avoid. The hardness of belief that one way or form was the right one is the anti-JKD.

You can not speek of Jeet Kune Do because you don't understand it. It wasn't simply a system of fighting, It was meant to be an alarm clock of the soul. An awakening of the spirit. He (Bruce Lee) believed that martial arts was about Pure, honest expression and to strengthen ones will. Founders are irrelevent!! They, like everyone, will die, there students and there students students will die. In 100 years no one will care about the Yamakasi boys or the A.D.E.P.T. cert or this website. The movement and the hunger for freedom of movement will still remain. The need to be strong and without fear will remain.

The founders mean NOTHING to Parkour, because Parkour is mine, it lives in the present, not the past and not the future. It is only now. And seeing as I don't  hang out with these founders, they are nothing more then some gentle inspiration or figmants of my imagination.

If Ryan Doyle or LeFlair or any of these other dudes wants to make some $$ jumping around on camera and call it JKD or Parkour or Freerunning or Happy Hippie Time I don't give a damn, because, Parkour belongs to the user, not this community and not you or the founders.

Do I think what they are doing on a little stage is Parkour.. Maybe not, cause they aren't trying to get from A-B.. But if that's true then Vaulting a table over and over isn't Parkour. But hey.. It's the "Art of Motion" tour, not the Parkour Tour so... who has two thumbs and doesn't care

Rant complete
David Belle once robbed a bank and left all the money on the Roof. He just wanted to prove that he could overcome any "Vault"..

"Those who lack the Courage will always find a Philosophy to justify it" -Camus

Offline Ian Want

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 10:04:18 AM »
APEX, Primal Fitness and I'm pretty sure Parkour Visions all offer certifications. I believe there is a seperate certification from the British Parkour Coaching Association as well.

^ Yea =)

The method of training, the ethical values and principles is central to the discipline, no matter what someone personally think and prefer, and if one neglect them, its not parkour any more. Its just an empty substance. It becomes just that: physical movements. No more no less. Like tricking, or like.. walking or freeclimbing.

Well, at this point we are arguing personal opinion and THAT is something I won't take too seriously on forums because the debate will last forever and ever (like this is shaping up to be) and I won't ever tell anyone their beliefs are wrong. I'm not saying knowing the past is wrong or is unnecessary, my ultimate point was, fighting these points tooth and claw on forums is going to get to you because these days I don't think there are too many purists running around anymore, especially on the forums. I just feel your going to spend a lot of your time arguing with many people who have been having this argument for a long time, who at one point felt the same way. (Like me).

Then I stopped worrying about names and started truly enjoying learning all movements... then you realize how trivial this argument is when after all is said and done... we're here to move.

*Drops mic on to ground

Offline 7Erik7

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 12:21:18 PM »
ooohhhhhh!!! You sir do not speak of Jeet Kune Do or Bruce Lee! Bruce did name succesors to JKD but only so that future generations would know his stance on the matter, not so they could keep it pure. Purity was infact what he was trying to avoid. The hardness of belief that one way or form was the right one is the anti-JKD.

You can not speek of Jeet Kune Do because you don't understand it. It wasn't simply a system of fighting, It was meant to be an alarm clock of the soul. An awakening of the spirit. He (Bruce Lee) believed that martial arts was about Pure, honest expression and to strengthen ones will. Founders are irrelevent!! They, like everyone, will die, there students and there students students will die. In 100 years no one will care about the Yamakasi boys or the A.D.E.P.T. cert or this website. The movement and the hunger for freedom of movement will still remain. The need to be strong and without fear will remain.

The founders mean NOTHING to Parkour, because Parkour is mine, it lives in the present, not the past and not the future. It is only now. And seeing as I don't  hang out with these founders, they are nothing more then some gentle inspiration or figmants of my imagination.

If Ryan Doyle or LeFlair or any of these other dudes wants to make some $$ jumping around on camera and call it JKD or Parkour or Freerunning or Happy Hippie Time I don't give a damn, because, Parkour belongs to the user, not this community and not you or the founders.

Do I think what they are doing on a little stage is Parkour.. Maybe not, cause they aren't trying to get from A-B.. But if that's true then Vaulting a table over and over isn't Parkour. But hey.. It's the "Art of Motion" tour, not the Parkour Tour so... who has two thumbs and doesn't care

Rant complete

I am not talking about purity. I am talking about his philosophy, or his [Bruce Lee] way, that he called Jeet kun Do. The reason why instructors exist is because jeet kun do isn’t simply the act of ‘’doing whatever you want’’. Its not some sort of attempt to justify some kind of unstructured approach to training. As with parkour, its very free but also rigid. Because it neglects anything that is just for boosting the practitioners ego (e.i showing off) and anything that serves no purpose and so on. It doesn’t follow any certain paradigm though, expect for the principles that its built on.  Now, I am not a Jeet Kun Do instructor, and I can be wrong. But I have read about him and his jeet in the books The art of expressing the human body, aswell as The tao of Jeet Kun Do says kinda the opposite.

Regarding the founders of course the founders means something to parkour. Without them it wouldn’t exist. Parkour, freerunning, add, is a name that defines a certain way of thinking and training. Its not simple the act of moving. Movements have existed since pre-history. But its true as you say, parkour doesn’t belong to anyone, but that doesn’t mean that you’ll represent it in a good way no matter of how you represent it. It does certainly not either mean that everything is parkour.

So the competition is just a load of bullpoo. Just listen what the Governing Body says. Its created by the founders. They are sure the most reliable source since they created the dicipline. They know way more than you, me, or anyone about what they created. If you want to go against that, sure, but its really going against facts. Its like editing Wikipedia claiming that parkour is not about movements because you think so. Point is: there are some things in parkour that are central to it.

^ Yea =)

Well, at this point we are arguing personal opinion and THAT is something I won't take too seriously on forums because the debate will last forever and ever (like this is shaping up to be) and I won't ever tell anyone their beliefs are wrong. I'm not saying knowing the past is wrong or is unnecessary, my ultimate point was, fighting these points tooth and claw on forums is going to get to you because these days I don't think there are too many purists running around anymore, especially on the forums. I just feel your going to spend a lot of your time arguing with many people who have been having this argument for a long time, who at one point felt the same way. (Like me).

Then I stopped worrying about names and started truly enjoying learning all movements... then you realize how trivial this argument is when after all is said and done... we're here to move.

*Drops mic on to ground

Really, I have never understood all this. I have heard it so many times but I really don’t understand it.

What is a ‘’purist’’? Someone that argues between parkour vs freerunning? Someone who refuse to do acrobatics because its not ‘efficient’? Someone who refuse to sleep because its not efficient? Someone who copy the founders way? Someone who’s got knowledge about parkours history? Someone who think the name is more important than the discipline itself?

You’re right though, the names are not important. It’s the spirit of training that is important. Its your approach and understanding of the discipline that is important. Anyone that are aware of its history, origins, spirit, and the principles and ethical values, and apply it, practise the art. No matter what its called.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 12:30:53 PM by 7Erik7 »

Offline Jason C. Astor

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 12:29:27 PM »
Only thing I can really say to this is, the more arguements I read about Parkour the more I start to think "The Founders" are laughing at us for wasting so much time talking smack about nothing. Stop argueing People, Go train or create your own art form if you don't like what this one has become. Then you can join that forum talking about your thing and tell them they are wrong. I'm stepping away from this conversation and all like it before I start Grammar/spell checking.

*Drops other mic*
David Belle once robbed a bank and left all the money on the Roof. He just wanted to prove that he could overcome any "Vault"..

"Those who lack the Courage will always find a Philosophy to justify it" -Camus

Offline 7Erik7

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 12:36:54 PM »
Only thing I can really say to this is, the more arguements I read about Parkour the more I start to think "The Founders" are laughing at us for wasting so much time talking smack about nothing. Stop argueing People, Go train or create your own art form if you don't like what this one has become. Then you can join that forum talking about your thing and tell them they are wrong. I'm stepping away from this conversation and all like it before I start Grammar/spell checking.

*Drops other mic*

Of course people discuss it. Its controversial.

I'd rather 'waste' my time on discussing than acting like the people who compete. As long as people discuss its all good. If one wish not to discuss such an important matter, what else could be important to discuss at a forum on this very board.

Shut up N train and you will study parkour properly. Um.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 12:38:36 PM by 7Erik7 »

Offline Ian Want

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Re: Statement on the Red Bull ‘Art of Motion’ Event
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 02:31:20 PM »
Again, its all opinion but a purist being someone who only practices effecient movement that specifically get you from point A - B in a quick, effecient way.

Then from there you can just start splitting hairs and trolling about what that really means, but essentially that gets embodied through "no flips, no tricking." Can flips be effecient ways to get over an object? Yes, I have seen it and heard stories of other people's versions as well... but I won't be getting in to that.

*collects all the dropped mics and puts them back on their stands.