Author Topic: Religion  (Read 7740 times)

Offline Shamas

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Re: Religion
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2011, 04:27:50 AM »
Agnostics = Atheists without balls  ;D that was what my friends kept telling me when I was actually agnostic.

That's completely ignorant. If you choose to support the possibility or highly likely probability of intelligent design then you are simply a type of scientist. Just because you do not claim to know what it is or its name doesn't mean you have no balls. It means you choose not to make wild claims that you're unsure of. Atheists do not believe in gods, deities, religion, or anything really. This takes its own unique brand of faith, which is borderline/if not utterly ironic.
I am not bashing Atheists or Agnostics or any religions. I am however defending a person's right to be agnostic without persecution.
Agnostics have just as much faith as a religious person or an atheist. It is just differed. They indeed have balls. Or whatever you want to refer to it as.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 04:53:58 AM by Shamas »
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Offline Ian Simonson

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Re: Religion
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2011, 08:40:26 AM »
Shamas, I'm basically agnostic, so I was making fun of myself a bit, I do that a lot, sorry if that offended you.  I don't actually believe they don't have balls, it's just a common joke.  Ignorant...yes.  Funny? at times.

Offline Kyle Rudolph

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Re: Religion
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2011, 08:47:22 AM »
Agnostics = Atheists without balls  ;D that was what my friends kept telling me when I was actually agnostic.
Why do you capitalize the word "atheist"? There is no guy named "Athe".
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Re: Religion
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2011, 08:59:47 AM »
That's completely ignorant. If you choose to support the possibility or highly likely probability of intelligent design then you are simply a type of scientist. Just because you do not claim to know what it is or its name doesn't mean you have no balls. It means you choose not to make wild claims that you're unsure of. Atheists do not believe in gods, deities, religion, or anything really. This takes its own unique brand of faith, which is borderline/if not utterly ironic.
I am not bashing Atheists or Agnostics or any religions. I am however defending a person's right to be agnostic without persecution.
Agnostics have just as much faith as a religious person or an atheist. It is just differed. They indeed have balls. Or whatever you want to refer to it as.
Woah dog.

First of all, believing in "intelligent design" doesn't make you a "type of scientist". That's stupid. Intelligent design isn't any form of science at all. And not because I don't think it is but because it doesn't follow scientific principals. A scientific theory is supported by extensive research and repeated experimentation and observation in the natural world. Unlike a true scientific theory, the existence of an “intelligent” agent can not be tested, nor is it falsifiable. Since it cannot adhere to following the scientific theory as actual scientific theories can, it is therefore not science.

There's no faith involved in atheism. I always assume the worst so I will always be prepared. While I do find the majority of religious texts to not be for me, at the same time a large part of me no believing in a god comes from the fact that if I do not live my life assuming there is one, I will always have to compensate for it. I live life as if there is no reward after death, and it will be a life well lived.

ALSO, for all Christian's here on out that will try and use the "atheism is a religion too" stance:
If atheism is a religion, not collecting stamps is a hobby. In addition, atheism has no sacred texts, no tenets, no ceremonies, no prophets, etc. So please stop calling it one.
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Offline Shamas

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Re: Religion
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2011, 09:20:55 AM »
Shamas, I'm basically agnostic, so I was making fun of myself a bit, I do that a lot, sorry if that offended you.  I don't actually believe they don't have balls, it's just a common joke.  Ignorant...yes.  Funny? at times.
I am not offended, bud. I was just clarifying.

Why do you capitalize the word "atheist"? There is no guy named "Athe".
Awesome.
You may capitalize if it is a noun/group. For instance, Republicans. Seeing as how PEOPLE make up the noun, it is legit. Calm down there, guy.

Woah dog.

First of all, believing in "intelligent design" doesn't make you a "type of scientist". That's stupid. Intelligent design isn't any form of science at all. And not because I don't think it is but because it doesn't follow scientific principals. A scientific theory is supported by extensive research and repeated experimentation and observation in the natural world. Unlike a true scientific theory, the existence of an “intelligent” agent can not be tested, nor is it falsifiable. Since it cannot adhere to following the scientific theory as actual scientific theories can, it is therefore not science.

There's no faith involved in atheism. I always assume the worst so I will always be prepared. While I do find the majority of religious texts to not be for me, at the same time a large part of me no believing in a god comes from the fact that if I do not live my life assuming there is one, I will always have to compensate for it. I live life as if there is no reward after death, and it will be a life well lived.

ALSO, for all Christian's here on out that will try and use the "atheism is a religion too" stance:
If atheism is a religion, not collecting stamps is a hobby. In addition, atheism has no sacred texts, no tenets, no ceremonies, no prophets, etc. So please stop calling it one.
Alright there, guy. Why don't you take a step back for a minute.

#1 No one is attacking you or your beliefs.

#2 You may be a scientist and allow the theory of Intelligent Design. This is a scientific preference, thus you may be an agnostic and be a scientist. Furthermore, it is argued among scientists that rebuking the very notion of intelligent design and shunning it from main stream scientific study is neglecting the very foundation of what a scientist is. A person who asks questions. Research to prove what is. Seeing as how they have not disproved the theory, it will stand. Even if they are unable to prove it or disprove it, it is a theory to be recognized as a part of true science.

#3 There is no religion involved in atheism. There is a strong belief in it however, also referred to as faith. You have faith in your belief that there is nothing there. You can call it strong conviction or what have you, it is all the same.

#4 Your "laying the law" about 'atheism is a religion too' argument was unnecessary and shows that you have some resentment concerning this discussion. You might not want to fly off the hinges anytime someone has something to say.

#5 This is not a thread of who is right and who is wrong. Remember that when you respond to posts.
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Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: Religion
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2011, 10:26:47 AM »


Misinterpreted hostility is misinterpreted.
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Offline Kyle Rudolph

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Re: Religion
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2011, 11:26:55 AM »
I am not offended, bud. I was just clarifying.
Awesome.
You may capitalize if it is a noun/group. For instance, Republicans. Seeing as how PEOPLE make up the noun, it is legit. Calm down there, guy.
Alright there, guy. Why don't you take a step back for a minute.

#1 No one is attacking you or your beliefs.

#2 You may be a scientist and allow the theory of Intelligent Design. This is a scientific preference, thus you may be an agnostic and be a scientist. Furthermore, it is argued among scientists that rebuking the very notion of intelligent design and shunning it from main stream scientific study is neglecting the very foundation of what a scientist is. A person who asks questions. Research to prove what is. Seeing as how they have not disproved the theory, it will stand. Even if they are unable to prove it or disprove it, it is a theory to be recognized as a part of true science.

#3 There is no religion involved in atheism. There is a strong belief in it however, also referred to as faith. You have faith in your belief that there is nothing there. You can call it strong conviction or what have you, it is all the same.

#4 Your "laying the law" about 'atheism is a religion too' argument was unnecessary and shows that you have some resentment concerning this discussion. You might not want to fly off the hinges anytime someone has something to say.

#5 This is not a thread of who is right and who is wrong. Remember that when you respond to posts.
Wait what? I wasn't getting mad. What Alec said.

1st bold: Wait wut. Lol. There is no "scientific preference". There is no philosophy of what is science or isn't. Science is hard facts. Science is the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. There are no preferences for what is science.

2nd bold: Sources please. But this also seems to be leaning into a "science philosophy" stance.

3rd bold: Did you not just read what I wrote above? If you can't prove or disprove it, it's does not follow the scientific method nor does it create a scientific theory. How can it be science? iIntelligent design is, for lack of better wording, an argument from ignorance. It relies on a lack of knowledge for its conclusion: lacking a natural explanation for certain specific aspects of evolution, we assume intelligent cause. Most scientists and people would reply that the unexplained is not unexplainable, and that "we don't know yet" is a more appropriate response than invoking a cause outside science.

4th bold: Again. wut. To believe the creation story requires faith because there is insufficient evidence to support the belief. Most Christians readily acknowledge this and do not see it as a problem. If ample evidence existed, faith would not be necessary. In fact, it would be entirely irrelevant. The mountains of evidence supporting the naturalistic worldview are undeniable, even by most Christians. One needs no faith the accept gravity, evolution, or many other basic scientific concepts. No faith is needed to accept naturalism; considerable faith is required to argue for any alternative. An atheist is one who does not accept the theistic belief claim (i.e., a god or gods exist). The theist accepts this claim on faith; the atheist in unwilling to do so. The atheist need to argue that no gods do (or could) exist. The atheistic position is simply that the theist has not met an acceptable burden of proof that is his or hers to meet. In other words, an atheist is an atheist precisely because he or she is not willing to accept the theist's claim on faith.

5th bold: Yeah I do. Because when people start to get into the "faith" thing as explained above, that is always the next argument to follow.

6th: You don't know that. I made the thread. trolololol.

Nah but seriously, you're right. But I'm not arguing who is right or wrong about wether there is a god or not. It comes down to you can't prove it either way 100%. I'm just trying explain why what YOU believe about MY beliefs is obviously incorrect.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 11:29:42 AM by Kyle Rudolph »
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Offline Kyle Rudolph

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Re: Religion
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2011, 11:38:07 AM »
It was painful trying to force myself to watch the whole thing. But in all honesty, it's not completely shocking to me. It's not common to run into that level of misconception in Utah, but go south, to the bible belt, and things get real crazy real fast.

It's ridiculously easy to get the dudes on bikes over to give you one. Fill this out: http://mormon.org/free-book-of-mormon/ and they'll be at your house within a week or two. I'm not trying to push anything. That video thing just... well, it's not happy watching your own religion being defamed by such ridiculous falsehoods, especially if people are just taking it as truth.

Srs question.

Those dudes on bicycles....


....are they trained to kill?
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Offline Shamas

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Re: Religion
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2011, 11:48:50 AM »
Wait what? I wasn't getting mad. What Alec said.

1st bold: Wait wut. Lol. There is no "scientific preference". There is no philosophy of what is science or isn't. Science is hard facts. Science is the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. There are no preferences for what is science.

2nd bold: Sources please. But this also seems to be leaning into a "science philosophy" stance.

3rd bold: Did you not just read what I wrote above? If you can't prove or disprove it, it's does not follow the scientific method nor does it create a scientific theory. How can it be science? iIntelligent design is, for lack of better wording, an argument from ignorance. It relies on a lack of knowledge for its conclusion: lacking a natural explanation for certain specific aspects of evolution, we assume intelligent cause. Most scientists and people would reply that the unexplained is not unexplainable, and that "we don't know yet" is a more appropriate response than invoking a cause outside science.

4th bold: Again. wut. To believe the creation story requires faith because there is insufficient evidence to support the belief. Most Christians readily acknowledge this and do not see it as a problem. If ample evidence existed, faith would not be necessary. In fact, it would be entirely irrelevant. The mountains of evidence supporting the naturalistic worldview are undeniable, even by most Christians. One needs no faith the accept gravity, evolution, or many other basic scientific concepts. No faith is needed to accept naturalism; considerable faith is required to argue for any alternative. An atheist is one who does not accept the theistic belief claim (i.e., a god or gods exist). The theist accepts this claim on faith; the atheist in unwilling to do so. The atheist need to argue that no gods do (or could) exist. The atheistic position is simply that the theist has not met an acceptable burden of proof that is his or hers to meet. In other words, an atheist is an atheist precisely because he or she is not willing to accept the theist's claim on faith.

5th bold: Yeah I do. Because when people start to get into the "faith" thing as explained above, that is always the next argument to follow.

6th: You don't know that. I made the thread. trolololol.

Nah but seriously, you're right. But I'm not arguing who is right or wrong about wether there is a god or not. It comes down to you can't prove it either way 100%. I'm just trying explain why what YOU believe about MY beliefs is obviously incorrect.
Right on, man. Well, I won't get into this further here. I will accept your retort and offer a friendly conversation via PM if you're interest. If not, cool
Also, it was completely my bad for misinterpreting hostility.

Srs question.

Those dudes on bicycles....


....are they trained to kill?
Does this answer your question?
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Offline Ryan Sannar

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Re: Religion
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2011, 12:22:13 PM »
Not as part of the missionary training no.
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Offline Ian Simonson

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Re: Religion
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2011, 02:10:34 PM »
Not as part of the missionary training no.

But as part of their assassination training yes  ;D

Offline Ryan Sannar

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Re: Religion
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2011, 03:27:38 PM »
No. In fact that is why missionaries are killed. With the Christian ideals of turn the other cheek and no self defense training occassionally a missionary is killed. This is normally a hate crime. However despite the fact that many missionaries are tracting in areas that are considered highly dangerous, both inside and outside of the United States, this doesn't occur often.
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Offline Ian Simonson

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Re: Religion
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2011, 03:37:28 PM »
Did not realize that  :o . Lot of respect then, that takes an insane amount of commitment.

Offline Alex Patterson

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Re: Religion
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2011, 03:55:53 PM »
Oh I don't think I could be a missionary.  I didn't become a member till I wwas 29. So that's past the age.

But I have tons of respect for them.

Offline Ryan Sannar

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Re: Religion
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2011, 07:29:54 PM »
Thank you for realizing that it is a sacrifice. Most people don't realize that these young men pay out of their own pocket (currently its at $10,000) to go on a mission. Most of the time the family will assist, when that is not possible the Church pulls from a missionary fund that members choose to donate to seperate from their tithe. These young (the general cut off point is 25 years old) men are called to serve in other states and countries with no prior knowledge and around 2 months advanced notice. Where those who are called 3rd world countries experience near dibilitating disease, injuries, and dangerous situations. Regardless almost all missionaries experience prejudice, threats and rejection.

Those who request service they serve, regardless of whether or not they share the same faith.

During this time they do not date, leave their companions side (missionaries are assigned a single companion in each area they serve in, this can vary over the average 2 year length of a mission to around 6-8 companions), drink, smoke, or stop working.
1 day out of every week they are given a preparation day in which they do laundry, clean, shop, etc... occassionally they have time for entertainiment.

And most missionaries you ask and they say its not a sacrifice. That its is the best experience of their life.

For more detailed info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary_(LDS_Church)
Its relatively accurate.

Now I'm not trying to raise them up. I just want people to see the other side of things. I'm not saying that this religion is the right one. Or that any religion is right. Maybe there is no intelligent design, maybe there is. That is up to you to decide.

But don't just critize people until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

Also I get the joking, but I think it should come after we have a reasonable understanding of those who do what they do. From their own mouths. It is so aggrivating and disappointing having someone else tell you what you believe.

I appreciate Kyle's side, he has read the Bible, Quoran, etc..... that is more than most would do. Props bro. BTW if you are serious about getting a Book of Mormon (no pressure at all dude, you can get a pdf copy online at www.mormon.org or www.lds.org, or request a copy mailed to you/delivered by missionaries.

No pressure. Not pushing my or anyone else's beliefs on anyone, just making sure my beliefs and practices are understood.
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Offline Josh Boggs

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Re: Religion
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2011, 07:39:15 PM »
Why do you capitalize the word "atheist"? There is no guy named "Athe".
Hahaha. One of the silliest things I've heard in a while.
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Offline Kimberly Heuer

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Re: Religion
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2011, 07:55:16 PM »
Srs question.

Those dudes on bicycles....


....are they trained to kill?

Completely not serious answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90SpWifnHFA (BTW: Eli - this is an example of a video meant to be funny. The one Kyle was asking about has nothing funny, joking, or harmless about it). But just to be clear: Nothing in this video is accurate or realistic in what missions are or how we view them. This was just made for a laugh.

Serious Answer: Ryan posted all anyone would want to know about missionaries before I could get my post up.
But I do want to clarify that it is not just men who serve missions. Women can choose to do so as well, if they feel it is right for them. Only difference is women can't go until they're 21 (men can go as early as 19), and only serve for 18 months (instead of 24). I'm actually seriously considering on serving a mission myself, perhaps leaving even this summer.
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Offline jaycee

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Re: Religion
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2011, 08:00:21 PM »
I like Mormons a lot - generally, I find them to be some of the friendliest, most genuine people you're likely to come across. (My roommate in basic training was a Mormon, he was the guy who spent pretty much all his free time helping everyone else get ready for inspections and whatnot.)

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the church itself (largely due to their efforts to block gay marriage.)
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Offline Shamas

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Re: Religion
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2011, 04:07:55 AM »
After high school I helped a collective of a Michigan non-denom Christian church and one from Iowa do a missionary trip to Mexico. I speak Spanish so it was an experience being a youth leader, training to be a youth pastor, and reaching out to people in a different environment while trying to utilize my newly acquire 4yrs of high school Spanish. It was interesting.

The most important thing I gained from the experience is that you don't need to fly to a different country to reach people. It is better (in my experience) to reach the under privileged around you by doing great deeds and not pushing religion on them. Living by example will effect the end result of their choices minutely or largely. Either way, it is by gaining this momentum that we can work from the inner circles to the outer in an attempt to better the world around us by showing genuine humanitarian behavior.

I don't know if anyone has ever done missionary work and had the same revelation or different ones. I would love to hear about it, no matter what faction you're from.
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Offline Eli

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Re: Religion
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2011, 11:22:23 AM »
Completely not serious answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90SpWifnHFA (BTW: Eli - this is an example of a video meant to be funny. The one Kyle was asking about has nothing funny, joking, or harmless about it). But just to be clear: Nothing in this video is accurate or realistic in what missions are or how we view them. This was just made for a laugh.

Serious Answer: Ryan posted all anyone would want to know about missionaries before I could get my post up.
But I do want to clarify that it is not just men who serve missions. Women can choose to do so as well, if they feel it is right for them. Only difference is women can't go until they're 21 (men can go as early as 19), and only serve for 18 months (instead of 24). I'm actually seriously considering on serving a mission myself, perhaps leaving even this summer.
....ahem, it seems I may have made a...er, slight error saying I thought it was a poke before. I had assumed kyle linked the south park episode about mormonism. My mistake.  :-[
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