Author Topic: The Parkour training method  (Read 18261 times)

Offline DaveS

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The Parkour training method
« on: August 09, 2011, 03:57:11 PM »
Since yet again a thread has been locked in the middle of a discussion about how to practice Parkour, I thought I'd start my own with a piece I wrote to clarify the points that were getting drowned out by the ego-driven attacks. I welcome discussion of these ideas, and about other ideas about how to train. After all, discussions of these topics are what enabled me to clarify these ideas up to this point. I feel we can discuss these ideas without commenting on any person's character or motivation.

NOTE: I'm not trying to tell anyone that they should make a choice based on words alone. What I am trying to do is enable people to seek out a wider range of experiences themselves, by showing that there are other views out there. I'm trying to make it possible for people that experience something that doesn't fit with their existing ideas to see if it fits with a different perspective, rather than immediately disregarding it because someone popular tells them to. I'm making people aware that there are people who are strong, free, happy, and who have put at least as much thought and study into their ideas as any weightlifting proponent, who take a very different view of how to prepare for life.

If any trigger-happy moderators who happen to be passing feel the need to get involved, I'd prefer it if they deleted any insults or personal attacks that crop up and left the discussion open to continue, rather than locking the thread.

Common issues with the Parkour training method

1. What is it?

By any reliable source of information, Parkour is the method of training by trying to move past obstacles in your environment in order to help you get past all the obstacles you face in your life. The APK definition agrees with this, the BPCA definition agrees with this, the definitions given by all the other experienced and dedicated practitioners agree with this, and the definitions given by the people who created it definitively describe it as this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN6_b6dLbVY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWneBIz6ATg
http://www.amazon.com/Parkour-French-David-Belle/dp/2357560258/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=461185990931808314#
http://parkour-videos.com/france-2-tv-report-1997/
http://parkour.net/lofiversion/index.php/t29.html
http://parkour.net/lofiversion/index.php/t30.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JwAH2DW3q8

Everyone who has put the necessary time and effort into learning about Parkour agrees with this. The only people who disagree are those who have not had access to reliable sources, or who have willingly ignored the reliable sources, and though they might be numerous they are clearly incorrect.

Since Parkour includes by definition both a method of training and a purpose, questions about how to train or what to aim for have a simple answer. You train by trying to move past the obstacles in your environment. You aim for the ability to get past all the obstacles you face in your life. Anything else is not Parkour.

There is no serious challenge to this idea. We can accept this as fact and move on to deeper understanding.


2. Why specialised physical training methods don't compliment Parkour

Parkour involves more skills than a more specialised physical training method, such as weightlifting, does. To use weightlifting as an example, with weightlifting you don't need to adapt to new situations because progression is simply about more resistance added to the same technique, and there are a limited number of lifting techniques. There is no element in weightlifting that requires analysis of the external environment, because again the nature of the training apparatus contains very limited variety besides resistance. There is no element in weightlifting that requires you to think about what challenge to face next in order to improve how you want to improve, because again the only real variety is in resistance.

If you practice a training method like weightlifting for any period of time it will leave your other skills at a higher level than these that aren't involved in weightlifting. If you then revert to Parkour, your Parkour training will only be able to develop these abilities until they catch up with the rest and correct the imbalance with respect to Parkour.

For the skill of analyzing the external environment this isn't a problem, because you can learn about the external environment without having to use the other skills at the same time.

For the skill of adaptation this is a slight problem, because finding new obstacles is made more difficult when your other skills are advanced enough that the obvious obstacles are interesting for a much shorter period. Your learning curve will be made steeper by your skill imbalance.

For developing the skill of choosing what challenge to face next, having the other skills at a high level already is a big problem. Developing this skill requires that other skills be challenged, and if those other skills are at a high level already then the obstacles needed to challenge them will need to be difficult and dangerous.
To learn this skill (the skill of choosing what challenge to face next) you need to make mistakes, and at the start of the process of development those mistakes will be big ones. If you go through this process when your abilities are balanced then the start of the development of this skill will coincide with the start of development of other skills, and you'll make those big mistakes with simple obstacles which will cause only simple problems. If your abilities are not balanced then those big mistakes are made with the difficult and dangerous obstacles you need to challenge your other abilities, and that will result in serious (and possibly permanent) injury.

The only way to avoid those serious injuries when developing your skill at choosing the correct obstacles is to develop this skill alongside your other skills, and that requires that you stick to Parkour or other training methods that involve the same principles and contains the same need to make complex choices.

The only other option is to avoid ever developing your ability to choose your own obstacles. Since this is an obstacle that limits us all, to ignore it would involve ignoring the defining purpose of Parkour and so you'd end up practicing a different activity. You'd also remain limited by your reliance on others to make choices for you.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 06:46:07 AM by DaveS »
~ Dave
NorthernParkour and the British Parkour Coaching Association

Offline Mr.WWII

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2011, 04:38:38 PM »
Nice opinions. I disagree with them. That's all there is to say.

Offline KC Parsons

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2011, 04:53:34 PM »
You aim for the ability to get past all the obstacles you face in your life.

A couple of the obstacles of my life are my current level of physical strength (as measured by ability to produce muscular tension/force / amount of weight able to be moved, specifically in well-accepted core lifts), my current level of ability in a few basic gymnastic-rooted bodyweight movements (which also rely heavily on physical strength), and my physique which can be modified to an extent through surprisingly similar methods used to increase my physical strength and gymnastic-rooted bodyweight movements.

Because I aim to get past these obstacles, I train parkour.

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2011, 05:25:10 PM »
Oh My Shit. Still? This is still happening?

Nice opinions. I disagree with them. That's all there is to say.
What he said. Nice opinions.

But on a serious note:

For the skill of adaptation this is a slight problem, because finding new obstacles is made more difficult when your other skills are advanced enough that the obvious obstacles are interesting for a much shorter period. Your learning curve will be made steeper by your skill imbalance.

Yeh, this can be true...if your training is based almost completely on what is interesting, which i was under the impression that it isn't for you.

 I strength trained long before i started parkour and have yet to be injured beyond minor things that can hardly be considered an injury. People, typically, don't just start hitting massive things because they can make the distance. Because they still don't know what will happen even if they do make it. I've seen plenty of beginners that have huge jump, that could easily hit larger things than i could. But i haven't once seen a beginner take off and hit, say a 12 foot rail precision, just because they could make the distance easily. Because in their head they think, "i could slip, what if i land wrong, what if i don't make it, what if i jump too far. i don't know what will happen. That scares me. Thats dangerous. I need to work up to that by doing some smaller ones first". The only thing that separates them from me is that when i look at it i think "yeh i can make that, i expect to stick it first try, if i come up short ill bounce back, if i over shoot ill just hop off"

You're forgetting a huge aspect of parkour training, and in my opinion the most important aspect. Control. I came into parkour already very strong, but i didn't just go out and try to hit the most massive things i could, because i still had no idea what would happen because i had no control. So i trained control on small things constantly. I spend almost 100% of my day every day falling over and over again. I made it so that i could adapt to any situation, so that i could put my body in any position i wanted when i wanted to and when i needed to. The more control i had, the bigger things i could do. It never mattered how strong i was, what mattered is how much control i had. What mattered is whether or not i could look at something and go "yeh i can do this, and if any thing goes wrong i can adapt."  Now i can do whatever i want because i have the control to do it. I know that if i don't hit it perfect i can adapt. I know what will happen in almost any situation that i end up in and that i will be able to adapt in each and every one of those situations and come out safely because i have the control to do so. This is why i haven't sustained any real injuries.

I train almost every single day. About 3 days a week i train twice a day. And i Strength train 6 days a week. I have yet to see my strength training degrade my intelligence to a point that i would injure myself. Just because i can go further doesn't mean that i will. It doesn't matter how far i can go if i cant control it when i get there.

This may seem long and slightly repetitive. Sorry if it is. Im out of this discussion. I just felt this was a huge thing that was being missed.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 05:27:18 PM by Caleb M. Iuliano »

Offline Alex Patterson

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2011, 05:35:54 PM »
I really don't get this debate. Everyone has different ways of doing things. And everyone has different opinions on how to do it.by

Offline TR

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2011, 06:00:59 PM »
Seriously Dave, who da phock cares? A single method of training is not right for everyone. It may work for you and maybe a few you know, but the people you know ≠ the rest of the world-wide community.

I am not satisfied with a single method of training. I want to train Parkour. I also want to lift weights. I also want to play soccer, and football, and sprint. I think it's up to the individual how they want to train, not how YOU think they should.

What you say is not going to change my mind about what I want to train. I think it's ridiculous that you're on here spouting away attempting to tell people how to train and live their lives.

As far as becoming stronger and more powerful, not only for MYSELF, but also for Parkour. I choose to lift weights because I actually read about it, and do it, therefore I know of the benefits both on my physicality, and my every day life and tasks. Stop saying the only way to improve your everyday life and Parkour is by ONLY practicing Parkour.

Thanks to getting into lifting, I've also branched out into other things that have improved both my knowledge and well being;
•Better Stretching
• Foam Rolling
• Eating Well
• Learning the mechanics of exercises
• Learning the importance of many things that have to do with exercise (too many to list...)

I could list more but I'd say those are the main things. I trained Parkour for 3 years before I ever gave lifting a try. I was stubborn towards it, but despite my bad lower back and knees, I gave it a shot and never looked back. No more knee problems.. no more back problems... etc.. etc..

I suppose I could have looked into those things before when I only trained Parkour, but I didn't.  It didn't motivate me, or open my mind to those things.

If you want to continue living your life by one method, and one method only, then that's good for you.. but don't try and push it on other people who enjoy multiple methods of training.

I wish someone like Teige or Danno were here to post in this worthless thread and share their thoughts. lol

Offline Conrad Moser

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2011, 06:08:47 PM »
Strength training (be it weights or body) has a place in parkour by increasing your physical ability. They can most definitely be used concurrently and do not necessarily negatively impact each other. Saying otherwise is just unnecessarily limiting your physical potential.
Age is just another obstacle. Get over it.

Offline Stevie Leifheit

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2011, 06:36:03 PM »
Dave, my problem was more that things were off topic, not because of argument.
Weight training alongside parkour always benefits, it never takes away.


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Offline Lonnie Tisdale

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2011, 08:20:12 PM »
Dave, as the minority opinion, the burden of proof lies with you my friend. Unfortunately your logic alone has not managed to sway anyone so you're going to have to do better than re-wording your reasoning over and over. Since you've already refused to link to any evidence, I'll go ahead and shed some light on the topic:

All Physical Exercise can be broken down into three categories:
* Strength training
* Agility training
* Eccentric Training


According to the American Council on Exercise®, "Strength training is an important component of any balanced fitness program", in fact a combination of Machines and Free Weights are recommended.

The benefits they list include:
Quote
* Increased strength of bones, muscles and connective tissue (the tendons and ligaments), decreasing the risk of injury.
* Increased muscle mass. Most adults lose about one-half pound of muscle per year after the age of 20. This is largely due to decreased activity.
* Muscle tissue is partly responsible for the number of calories burned at rest (the basal metabolic rate or BMR). As muscle mass increases, BMR increases, making it easier to maintain a healthy body weight.

Conclusion: If your Parkour training routine does not include integrated Strength Training, your program is lacking. That's a fact.

Okay, so how do we include Strength Training into our routine most efficiently, without interfering with other aspects of our training, as Dave mentioned?

This is possible through a process called Periodization:
Periodization is an organized approach to training that involves progressive cycling of various aspects of a training program during a specific period of time(phases).

Each phase has a different set, repetition, and speed scheme to target various areas of training, like Technique, Strength, Power, Endurance, Etc.  All the while still swimming, biking, running, or in our case, doing parkour on a weekly basis. "Your program needs to fit into your schedule. You do not want to sacrifice endurance and skill training for strengthening. We have to prioritize here. Although I am a true believer in strength training, it cannot substitute for endurance and skill training. You want to fit it all in together."

Again, the American Council on Exercise states, "Such a program will allow your muscles to strengthen gradually and is appropriate for anyone interested in general fitness." in fact, "Research from the Human Performance Laboratory at Ball State University has shown that a periodized strength-training program can produce better results than a non-periodized program."

The following are some of the benefits of strength training periodization:
Quote
* Build strength - a pretty obvious one, I know.
* Improves strength endurance - feel stronger at the later stages of your event.
* Minimize risk of injury - nothing hinders performance more than an injury.
* Maintain proper form - good posture and technique throughout all 3 events.
* Resist fatigue - work harder for longer, or work longer with less effort.
* Improves efficiency - minimize your energy leaks.
* Balance muscles - being strong in all planes for maximum gain.
* Improves muscle recruitment and motor programming - use the muscles the way they are supposed to be used.
* Improve performance - when it is all said and done…you perform better.

Conclusion: When integrated properly, strength training does not interfere in any way with the development of other physical skills. In fact, it's been shown to be the safest and most reliable way to maximize physical development all around.

For those interested here's a good article from www.pkto.ca on Weight Training alongside Parkour.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 11:27:39 PM by Lonnie Tisdale »
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Offline NOS - from Parkour Mumbai

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2011, 11:03:11 PM »
I just want to understand one thing.
Why can't I just practice the physical discipline of getting from one point to another, past any manner of physical obstacles (leaving the rest of my life, metaphorical obstacles, etc. out of it), and learning to move or locomote my body through different surroundings using different methods than just the conventional methods of walking and running that are currently used by the modern world, regardless of time-urgency or purpose? Who says there isn't any mental element at all (note emphasis) in such a practice?

If, according to the infinite wisdom of Dave Sedgeley, this isn't Parkour, or ADD, then what should we call this separate discipline? I'd be happy to accept a new name for it and settle this debate once and for all. I'm sure what I described in the paragraph above has the scope to be a discipline or a study in itself, even if it doesn't fit under the broad, philosophical purview of Parkour/ADD, and that the concept will also find takers and practitioners, and practical application. Then I can go about practicing my separate discipline and be happy with it, and Dave (and others, if they exist out there) can continue practicing whatever it is they do under the name of Parkour/ADD.


Yeh, this can be true...if your training is based almost completely on what is interesting, which i was under the impression that it isn't for you.
Way to go Caleb! You really got him there. He's trapped in his own words. :D
(now only if he would actually accept that he's trapped..., but that's just wistful thinking)

I strength trained long before i started parkour and have yet to be injured beyond minor things that can hardly be considered an injury.
Same here man.

People, typically, don't just start hitting massive things because they can make the distance. Because they still don't know what will happen even if they do make it. I've seen plenty of beginners that have huge jump, that could easily hit larger things than i could. But i haven't once seen a beginner take off and hit, say a 12 foot rail precision, just because they could make the distance easily. Because in their head they think, "i could slip, what if i land wrong, what if i don't make it, what if i jump too far. i don't know what will happen. That scares me. Thats dangerous. I need to work up to that by doing some smaller ones first". The only thing that separates them from me is that when i look at it i think "yeh i can make that, i expect to stick it first try, if i come up short ill bounce back, if i over shoot ill just hop off"

You're forgetting a huge aspect of parkour training, and in my opinion the most important aspect. Control. I came into parkour already very strong, but i didn't just go out and try to hit the most massive things i could, because i still had no idea what would happen because i had no control. So i trained control on small things constantly. I spend almost 100% of my day every day falling over and over again. I made it so that i could adapt to any situation, so that i could put my body in any position i wanted when i wanted to and when i needed to. The more control i had, the bigger things i could do. It never mattered how strong i was, what mattered is how much control i had. What mattered is whether or not i could look at something and go "yeh i can do this, and if any thing goes wrong i can adapt."  Now i can do whatever i want because i have the control to do it. I know that if i don't hit it perfect i can adapt. I know what will happen in almost any situation that i end up in and that i will be able to adapt in each and every one of those situations and come out safely because i have the control to do so. This is why i haven't sustained any real injuries.
Word.
I think with a 2.x+ deadlift and squat for reps, 1.2x Bench and Bent-Rows for reps I could be considered a pretty strong guy. I can box jump 50 inches, broad jump 9 feet+. But according to Dave's impeccable logic, I should find smaller jumps boring to train then, shouldn't I? However, I would behoove him to come and look at my training approach and then say the same nonsense that strength leads to training beyond one's level. When I drill precisions, I never go beyond 6 feet (or 7 feet max), when I drill drops I never jump off 2 feet. And I don't go around seeking larger/longer jumps in my other training just because I'm strong enough to do them, most people (except impressionable teenagers, who just need direction and guidance from the right seniors) are smart enough to not try things beyond their (skill) abilities, even though they may have built a certain level of strength and physicality.

Just because i can go further doesn't mean that i will. It doesn't matter how far i can go if i cant control it when i get there.
^^This!

Offline Joe Brock

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2011, 11:14:44 PM »
"Strength is more useful than weakness."-Jim Wendler

"Through the years, I have combined meditation, action, and the Iron into a single strength. I believe that when the body is strong, the mind thinks strong thoughts. Time spent away from the Iron makes my mind degenerate. I wallow in a thick depression. My body shuts down my mind. The Iron is the best antidepressant I have ever found. There is no better way to fight weakness than with strength. Once the mind and body have been awakened to their true potential, it's impossible to turn back.

The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you're a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds." - Henry Rollins

Subjectivity is overrated.  Without a measurable quantity and recorded results, there can be no science.  That's why this discussion continues.  IT CANNOT BE QUANTIFIED.  Dave says, "This makes you a better person, with stronger mental/spiritual awareness."  It cannot be proven, and thus, cannot really be a point that anyone is able to disprove.  That pretty much means that it will go on forever, and that we just have to accept that it is so based on subjective reasoning, that there is no counter-argument.

That being said, "Parkour + Weightlifting is perhaps not in the method, it's a transcendence of the method.  It makes you a cooler person, and it also decreases the chances that you'll be stuck in some elitist mindset that makes everyone hate listening to you, even when you make valid points.  Doing both makes you a greater human being."-Joe Brock

This saying also cannot be measured, and thus: IT MUST BE THE TRUTH!
Posts are not to be mistaken for medical or training advice, or anything other than the rantings of an amateur strongman and powerlifter.

Offline Chantelle

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2011, 11:15:50 PM »
Oh My Shit. Still? This is still happening?
What he said. Nice opinions.

But on a serious note:

Yeh, this can be true...if your training is based almost completely on what is interesting, which i was under the impression that it isn't for you.

 I strength trained long before i started parkour and have yet to be injured beyond minor things that can hardly be considered an injury. People, typically, don't just start hitting massive things because they can make the distance. Because they still don't know what will happen even if they do make it. I've seen plenty of beginners that have huge jump, that could easily hit larger things than i could. But i haven't once seen a beginner take off and hit, say a 12 foot rail precision, just because they could make the distance easily. Because in their head they think, "i could slip, what if i land wrong, what if i don't make it, what if i jump too far. i don't know what will happen. That scares me. Thats dangerous. I need to work up to that by doing some smaller ones first". The only thing that separates them from me is that when i look at it i think "yeh i can make that, i expect to stick it first try, if i come up short ill bounce back, if i over shoot ill just hop off"

You're forgetting a huge aspect of parkour training, and in my opinion the most important aspect. Control. I came into parkour already very strong, but i didn't just go out and try to hit the most massive things i could, because i still had no idea what would happen because i had no control. So i trained control on small things constantly. I spend almost 100% of my day every day falling over and over again. I made it so that i could adapt to any situation, so that i could put my body in any position i wanted when i wanted to and when i needed to. The more control i had, the bigger things i could do. It never mattered how strong i was, what mattered is how much control i had. What mattered is whether or not i could look at something and go "yeh i can do this, and if any thing goes wrong i can adapt."  Now i can do whatever i want because i have the control to do it. I know that if i don't hit it perfect i can adapt. I know what will happen in almost any situation that i end up in and that i will be able to adapt in each and every one of those situations and come out safely because i have the control to do so. This is why i haven't sustained any real injuries.

I train almost every single day. About 3 days a week i train twice a day. And i Strength train 6 days a week. I have yet to see my strength training degrade my intelligence to a point that i would injure myself. Just because i can go further doesn't mean that i will. It doesn't matter how far i can go if i cant control it when i get there.

This may seem long and slightly repetitive. Sorry if it is. Im out of this discussion. I just felt this was a huge thing that was being missed.



This may have been the best post EVER.  Thanks man.  You're bang on.

Offline Stevie Leifheit

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2011, 05:46:25 AM »
I deleted a few pointless posts.


Also, GREAT post Joe. I love you.
Weight training alongside parkour always benefits, it never takes away.


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It's like you are some kind of APK Angel...not the girly kind...but the big "Sodom destroying" ones!!!

Offline DaveS

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2011, 07:02:01 AM »
Thanks for the tidying, Stevie. I appreciate the work you're doing in this forum :)

Same as usual, folks. Try and read it all but if you're struggling then skip down to the part that responds to the points you made.

@Caleb
You're forgetting a huge aspect of parkour training, and in my opinion the most important aspect. Control. I came into parkour already very strong, but i didn't just go out and try to hit the most massive things i could, because i still had no idea what would happen because i had no control. So i trained control on small things constantly.
...
I train almost every single day. About 3 days a week i train twice a day. And i Strength train 6 days a week. I have yet to see my strength training degrade my intelligence to a point that i would injure myself. Just because i can go further doesn't mean that i will. It doesn't matter how far i can go if i cant control it when i get there.
That's interesting, because in the previous discussions I've taken part in, the supporters of specialized strength training methods like weightlifting have staunchly defended the all-round physical benefits of their methods, including control.

So really then, what you're saying is that even with your previous strength training you had to start at the beginning with the simplest obstacles and take things slowly. It's obviously good when someone has the awareness to do this, however in my experience the most common route is for people to do this only after making a mistake with something big. Most people don't realize that they have to spend a lot of time working on control until they're forced to acknowledge (through an accident) that a lack of control has led to serious negative consequences for them. It's not really relevant to this thread, but I'm curious, how do you think you learned it?

If you agree that even with strength training you have to follow the same progression path with Parkour, starting with simple obstacles and progressing at the same steady rate to let your other abilities catch up, then it would seem that we're in agreement that strength training does not leave you better prepared for Parkour. The problem I describe all occur when people try and accelerate the pace of development in Parkour, and if you agree that the pace of development should still follow the development of the weakest skill then it seems we're in agreement.

Yeh, this can be true...if your training is based almost completely on what is interesting, which i was under the impression that it isn't for you.
The purpose of Parkour is to enable you to be yourself and to follow your own path continuously, to pursue your own desires. "To be and to continue".

In the short term, the things you want to do are the things that you find interesting, enjoyable. When you're planning for the long-term, the things you want to do are the things that help you improve. Parkour lets you do both at the same time. Trying to get past obstacles is interesting and enjoyable in the here and now, and it's also a very effective way of improving for the future. I think we'd all agree that Parkour is more fun at the time than lifting weights, having fun is after all the most commonly given reason for why someone practices Parkour. I happen to believe that it's also more effective at developing your abilities, so of course I train in this way. It's fun, it's effective. For me it's the ideal solution.

This ideal situation only functions when the obstacles that are interesting/fun are also the obstacles that will allow you to develop your weakest skill. I think any challenge can be fun, but I think that it's easiest for newcomers to have fun when it feels like they're improving their greatest strength. Modern society does, after all, encourage us to focus on what we're good at. I know that's how I and many others started with Parkour. The ability to find fun in challenging your weak areas relies on the idea that you need to be well-rounded, and I think that's quite an advanced point in understanding.
Being physically stronger doesn't prevent you having fun with smaller obstacles, I just think it makes it a little bit harder than it needs to be.


@TR
Seriously Dave, who da phock cares? A single method of training is not right for everyone. It may work for you and maybe a few you know, but the people you know ≠ the rest of the world-wide community.
No, they are not the rest of the Parkour community, but when it comes to knowing what the method of Parkour is they are the part of the community that knows that they are talking about.

As far as becoming stronger and more powerful, not only for MYSELF, but also for Parkour. I choose to lift weights because I actually read about it, and do it, therefore I know of the benefits both on my physicality, and my every day life and tasks. Stop saying the only way to improve your everyday life and Parkour is by ONLY practicing Parkour.
I have never said that. I have stated quite categorically that almost any training method will help you live your life. My discussion has been about the best way to train for the demands of your life, not the only way. I think that training with real, practical tasks (which includes Parkour but is not limited to it) is the best way, not the only way.

I suppose I could have looked into those things before when I only trained Parkour, but I didn't.  It didn't motivate me, or open my mind to those things.
The most difficult part of practicing Parkour at the moment is learning about all the different ways to practice it. You only develop yourself in certain ways if you train in certain ways, and as yet there is no list of all the different things you have to do in order to get all the possible benefits. It's trial and error at the moment, but if you practice Parkour in the right ways it can move you towards developing all those skills you listed.

I am not satisfied with a single method of training. I want to train Parkour. I also want to lift weights. I also want to play soccer, and football, and sprint. I think it's up to the individual how they want to train, not how YOU think they should.

What you say is not going to change my mind about what I want to train. I think it's ridiculous that you're on here spouting away attempting to tell people how to train and live their lives.

If you want to continue living your life by one method, and one method only, then that's good for you.. but don't try and push it on other people who enjoy multiple methods of training.
TR, you're mistaken. I have never tried to push one method on to anyone. I think that some methods are better than others, but I am careful to try and help people understand this themselves through explanations and demonstrations, rather than forcing people with orders or emotive persuasion. If that was what I was trying to do then I think I'd do a better job of it. I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm not telling people what to do, I'm just giving information. What you do is up to you, and quite frankly I'd be disappointed if anyone changed their minds solely as a result of one of my posts.


@Lonnie
Conclusion: If your Parkour training routine does not include integrated Strength Training, your program is lacking. That's a fact.
...
Conclusion: When integrated properly, strength training does not interfere in any way with the development of other physical skills. In fact, it's been shown to be the safest and most reliable way to maximize physical development all around.
I agree with both conclusions. However, you can train physical strength through Parkour so neither affects the topic of discussion in this thread.

The only part that I disagree with in your post is the recommending of machines and free weights, which just proves that the American Council on Exercise has a different idea of what the ultimate goals of exercise are.


@NOS
I just want to understand one thing.
Why can't I just practice the physical discipline of getting from one point to another, past any manner of physical obstacles (leaving the rest of my life, metaphorical obstacles, etc. out of it), and learning to move or locomote my body through different surroundings using different methods than just the conventional methods of walking and running that are currently used by the modern world, regardless of time-urgency or purpose? Who says there isn't any mental element at all (note emphasis) in such a practice?
For the first question, you can of course do that. What you describe is a sport though, not a training discipline.
For the second question, I don't think anyone says that there would be no mental element to such a practice.

I agree, creating a separate sport for people that don't want to practice Parkour as it was intended would solve many of the issues. Talk to some people, find a new name, I'll support you all the way. :)

I think with a 2.x+ deadlift and squat for reps, 1.2x Bench and Bent-Rows for reps I could be considered a pretty strong guy. I can box jump 50 inches, broad jump 9 feet+. But according to Dave's impeccable logic, I should find smaller jumps boring to train then, shouldn't I? However, I would behoove him to come and look at my training approach and then say the same nonsense that strength leads to training beyond one's level. When I drill precisions, I never go beyond 6 feet (or 7 feet max), when I drill drops I never jump off 2 feet. And I don't go around seeking larger/longer jumps in my other training just because I'm strong enough to do them, most people (except impressionable teenagers, who just need direction and guidance from the right seniors) are smart enough to not try things beyond their (skill) abilities, even though they may have built a certain level of strength and physicality.
It's not that smaller jumps are boring, it's just that most people coming to Parkour find that pushing all of their boundaries together is more fun. Parkour can give you that if you're balanced.

I have never said that strength leads to training beyond one's level. The closest that I have come is to say that a physical bias to your strength makes training at your level more dangerous, because it is certain non-physical skills that keep you safe.


@Joe
"Strength is more useful than weakness."-Jim Wendler

"Through the years, I have combined meditation, action, and the Iron into a single strength. I believe that when the body is strong, the mind thinks strong thoughts. Time spent away from the Iron makes my mind degenerate. I wallow in a thick depression. My body shuts down my mind. The Iron is the best antidepressant I have ever found. There is no better way to fight weakness than with strength. Once the mind and body have been awakened to their true potential, it's impossible to turn back.

The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you're a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds." - Henry Rollins
That's somewhat simplistic in places. I agree with the general principle that the mind and body are connected and that both need to be strong, but I don't think that the mind automatically becomes strong when the body is. Henry Rollins apparently does meditation to help strengthen the mind, I think it's possible to use similar methods within Parkour.

Subjectivity is overrated.  Without a measurable quantity and recorded results, there can be no science.  That's why this discussion continues.  IT CANNOT BE QUANTIFIED.  Dave says, "This makes you a better person, with stronger mental/spiritual awareness."  It cannot be proven, and thus, cannot really be a point that anyone is able to disprove.  That pretty much means that it will go on forever, and that we just have to accept that it is so based on subjective reasoning, that there is no counter-argument.
The need for balanced skills can be proven through direct, personal experience.

All needs can be proven only through direct, personal experiences, that make a strong connection to your internal feelings and emotions. That's what a need is. That's the source of all motivation. They are a product of who you are, the sum of all your experiences. We know that our perception of our needs changes, but it doesn't do so instantaneously and it doesn't do so solely as a result of a single exchanges of ideas. It happens when you're confronted with an idea that fits all of the experiences that you have had, and fits them better than your existing ideas. When our perception changes it is the result of a whole chain of experiences, not just one discussion.

I'm not trying to tell anyone that they should make a choice based on words alone. What I am trying to do is enable people to seek out a wider range of experiences themselves, by showing that there are other views out there. I'm trying to make it possible for people that experience something that doesn't fit with their existing ideas to see if it fits with a different perspective, rather than immediately disregarding it because popular opinion tells them to. I'm making people aware that there are people who are strong, free, happy, and who have put at least as much thought and study into their ideas as any weightlifting proponent, who take a very different view of how to prepare for life.

I think it is a mistake to dismiss things just because you can't prove them easily and conveniently. I think it is a mistake to dismiss anything without directly investigating it yourself.
~ Dave
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Offline NOS - from Parkour Mumbai

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2011, 07:18:10 AM »
For the second question, I don't think anyone says that there would be no mental element to such a practice.
Why, you did, Dave. You said it multiple times, or rather, refused to accept that concept multiple times when we futilely argued back and forth over that same point during the 'Parkour Stripped to Essentials' discussion.
(although, please don't ask me to give a direct quote, I don't have the time to sit and search for it.)

Offline DaveS

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2011, 07:46:13 AM »
Actually, what I said was:
Movement is a mental challenge right from the very start and all the way through to the end.

I said that what movement on it's own wouldn't have is the philosophy of Parkour, the desire to get past all obstacles you face. It's not that it would have no mental aspect, just that it would not have the same overall mental focus.
~ Dave
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Offline Sword

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2011, 08:20:33 AM »
TR, you're mistaken. I have never tried to push one method on to anyone.
Are you even reading your own posts? If you're not trying to push one method onto people, then why are you telling everyone that all the ways they train are wrong? Why do you only say your way is right? Why does this thread even exist if your "not pushing your method onto people"? Why do you call other peoples opinions "ego-driven attacks" (in your first post of this thread. Don't try to deny it.) ? Until you can post SCIENTIFIC PROOF about your opinions, NO ONE is going to care. Lonnie did earlier in this thread, so why can't you?

Offline Conrad Moser

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2011, 08:33:23 AM »
That's great Dave. Many people here have very clearly expressed their own experiences and discoveries and found their own way. You just keep telling them to dismiss that in favor of your own.
Age is just another obstacle. Get over it.

Offline DaveS

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2011, 09:16:58 AM »
Sword
Are you even reading your own posts? If you're not trying to push one method onto people, then why are you telling everyone that all the ways they train are wrong? Why do you only say your way is right? Why does this thread even exist if your "not pushing your method onto people"? Why do you call other peoples opinions "ego-driven attacks" (in your first post of this thread. Don't try to deny it.) ? Until you can post SCIENTIFIC PROOF about your opinions, NO ONE is going to care. Lonnie did earlier in this thread, so why can't you?
I explained the purpose of this thread in the first post. It is to discuss and clarify ideas.
I believe that it is worthwhile to search for the best ways to train. It may be the case that there is no single, specific set of exercises that are the best for everyone. However, I believe that there are principles of exercise that do hold true for everyone and that all the best forms of exercise use these principles to the greatest effect. Those are the ideas that this thread aims to discuss.
It is not other opinions that are ego-driven attacks, but the insults and other derogatory comments from insecure people. The people that use them can't handle the fact that other people might think that they themselves are wrong and so they try everything they can to discredit the other side of the debate. Stevie has had to lock several threads because of the destructive comments and level of abuse, and he's had to delete several posts from this thread for the same reason. The funny thing about it is, getting angry and offensive just proves that they don't have the mental skills to cope with challenges of different kinds. All it does is highlight the differences I'm talking about.
People who disagree with me aren't going to care about views like the one I'm presenting here until either they see scientific evidence (in which case they're never going to learn about the things you need to experience yourself) or they have a personal experience elsewhere which shows them a problem that their existing views can't solve.

Belhade
That's great Dave. Many people here have very clearly expressed their own experiences and discoveries and found their own way. You just keep telling them to dismiss that in favor of your own.
No, I tell them why I disagree with the conclusions they draw.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 10:01:45 AM by DaveS »
~ Dave
NorthernParkour and the British Parkour Coaching Association

Offline Joe Brock

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Re: The Parkour training method
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2011, 09:32:29 AM »
I'm going to say that I am a fan of special physical preparedness (as in weight training) and general physical preparedness (as in parkour, sprints, sled pulls).  I think that the perfect balance is somewhere between the extremes, and that a more complete human being is created by encompassing many aspects in one's own training.  I think it's foolishness to be too specialized, and that's really all I have to add to this.  I have no issue using Dave's definition for parkour.  It's just that if that's all there is too it, then I'd recommend including other training with your parkour training.
Posts are not to be mistaken for medical or training advice, or anything other than the rantings of an amateur strongman and powerlifter.