Author Topic: To Define Freedom  (Read 22380 times)

Offline Ryan Ford

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2005, 10:45:24 PM »
Quote
Parkour is an art to help you passing any obstacle to go from point A to point B only with the human body possibilities.

Understand that this art has been created by few soldiers in Vietnam to escape or reach: and this is the spirit I'd like parkour to keep. You have to make the difference between what is useful and what is not in emergency situations. Then You'll know what is parkour and what is not.

(David Belle)

And in more polished English...:

"Parkour is an art that helps you overcome obstacles, using only your body, on your way from point A to point B.

This art has been created by a few soldiers in Vietnam to escape or reach, and this is what I want parkour to remain. You must be able to distinguish between what is useful in an emergency situation and what is not. When you know this, you know what is and what is not parkour."


Parkour is a simple thing and that is a simple description. I think it could be helpful to drop everything being discussed and instead focus on any questions one might have with the bolded text.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 11:14:21 PM by Demon »

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2005, 10:59:32 PM »
i agree with M2, and the divice he is using (devil's advocate) to try to get this set straight. 
I, personally, have also been using this divice.
I know that through training, the true meaning of parkour can be understood.

What M2 is doing IS helpful, as a varsity level debater, i can honestly say that this is a good system to use to help get the necessary information to the judge, or in this case, the readers.
two points that keep being thrown back and forth, as stated by M2, are to go out and train, and to read belle's definition.
this would be okay, but when  point 1 gets shot down, you say point 2, and vica verca, this doesn't hold any water.

parkourdan, i find you to be a great source of information, especially because of your knowledge of parkour meanings, and the french language, but you must be able to see the issues that are being brought up and then hit them, even if they are between the lines.

as a reader, i would have alot of unanswered questions, and actual time must be given to educate people properly.

andi k, a good, thought out stance is much more effective than simply getting cranky and bashing people.  It does no good, and it hurts your argument.  instead of addressing the issue at hand, you attacked the very validity of the argument, but did not back it up sufficiently.  this means you 'dropped the points' brought up by ignoring them, and therefore concede to agreeance.
by doing this you have contradicted yourself.

i understand the confusion that has been brought on, and that this post may have helped to perpetuate, but we cannot ditch a discussion which needs to be resolved because some of it is confusing.
the very fact that the discussion is confusing is even more reason to resolve it.

ps, in response to the reply demon posted while i was writing this, if you feel that this is too out of line with your request, then please go ahead and delete this.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 11:05:21 PM by Steez »

Offline andi k

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2005, 12:44:23 AM »
Quote
what makes your answer better than mine, or anyone else's? i can understand how Belle's or even Foucan's answers will be better than mine, because of who they are, and what they have done.

because i have trained with both, belle and foucan, and talked to both, belle and foucan, also about this specific issue, and david has chosen me for his team of representatives of parkour because he thinks my level of understanding is at a valid level and my answers are 'the better' ones.  that sounds f#cking arrogant right now i know, but you wanted clarification so there you have it.

Quote
why is it NOT necessary to pick apart definitions in search of the true meaning?

because these definitions werent made by oxford and harvard psychology specialists with the purpose of containing a deep special meaning.  these are easy words, they have been chosen by a group of youths, 15-17 year olds,   to describe what they do. their thought will have been 'what do we do ? we move effectively. art of effectivity ? sounds gay... ok, better word ? l'art du deplacement ? sounds nice, were gonna take that', and they always had in mind, that whenever people see them move, they will know what 'deplacement' means for this case.

you can argue 10000 times about what you think it might mean, but what it really means is obvious, when you just look at them.

Quote
And I'm a firm believer that there is such a thing as "over-analysis."

exactly.  parkour is simple. now, 10000 people with 10000 different ideas have a look at it, and find things that could be connected (arent, since the concept is easy) and then in the end, with 10.000 different ideas and found connections you could make it look like parkour is the most complex sport ever.  however,  THIS IS NOT WHAT IT IS. 

another thing:  argueing wont help. you all are just argueing about some infos youve got out of the internet. as long as youre not argueing about something that david belle said straight himself (i dont count foucan in, he is a free-runner now) the argument is not valid.  even then, its not very valid, if you dont argue with david himself. because it will always be YOUR INTERPRETATION, and not the original thing. why dont you take what is being said, by david belle, and instead of trying to over analyze it,  - ACCEPT IT, and then you go out, train (i hope the most of you do that at least once in a year) and then you will know exactly what he is talking about.   (and m2, i know that you could now turn around what i said by saying everything is only interpretation, blabla.. but you know EXACTLY what my point is, so if you turn this one around, i will see that as a sign that you dont wanna find the truth, but win the argument no matter what it costs)

Quote
that a posted definiton on a website that isn't even live isn't getting the message out to everyone, and that we need a better way.

no my friend, this is where i disagree.

yet, everyone i know, that i have brought into parkour, that i told about davids message, but told nothign about all the confusion, blabla,  has trained with me for a while and PERFECTLY understood what parkour is about.  the definition is telling everything one needs to know.

the problem is not that the definition is bad, but that people dont accept it. parkour is something , or better, a traceur is something, that not everyone can become. not everybody can understand it. there will always be idiots. and you are the one that will have to accept that, because yet you seem to try to find a definition that is fine for EVERYONE, but this doesnt exist my friend, since always people see things from different views, some see atomic energy as the best invention of the world some see it as the worst, there is no all-saying-clarification that makes them both think the same, etc..

the goal is not to find a definition that fits for EVERYONE, cause you wont find it, the goal is to find a definition that fits for PARKOUR, and davids words are fine for it.  yet, every traceur i know has understood these words fully.

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parkour is simple it just requires a certain dedication to understand.

and as much as i love to disagree with faelcind, he is exactly right here.

Quote
by doing this you have contradicted yourself.

wtf are YOU talking about ? are you on drugs or something.

----------------------------

oh and btw, m2, something you like to do, you still didnt answer my question:

Quote
i dont know what the f#ck youre argueing about ?

so what exactly WERE you argueing about ? about what 'deplacement' exactly means ?   you wont find the true meaning of parkour if you analyze the words used to describe it, by non-english speakers,  you will only find it when you DO it.

cu



nuff said.

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2005, 02:03:50 AM »
i agree with M2, and the divice he is using (devil's advocate) to try to get this set straight. 
I, personally, have also been using this divice.
I know that through training, the true meaning of parkour can be understood.

What M2 is doing IS helpful, as a varsity level debater, i can honestly say that this is a good system to use to help get the necessary information to the judge, or in this case, the readers.

...

Quote from: Steez
The art of purposeful running?

Yep you're right.
It's working great.
I regress.

Offline andi k

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2005, 02:10:12 AM »
the art of shutting the f#ck up, and doing what we all know parkour is.


nuff said.

Gearsighted

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2005, 02:45:26 AM »
Wait...didn't I already say that?  ::)

Offline andi k

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2005, 03:05:36 AM »
yea, but nobody listens to you  ;D go wash some dishes  ;D ;D ;D


nuff said.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2005, 06:01:35 AM »
Quote
the art of shutting the f#ck up, and doing what we all know parkour is.
;D

Andi, I am not trying to win, or to turn anything around, I am trying to find a better way to explain it to people.

As you and Dan have both said now "Anyone I talk to / train knows EXACTLY what Parkour is".

I feel I can say the same thing. I have never (to the best of my knowledge, at least in the last 2 years) told someone that Parkour was something that it wasn't, or even given someone the wrong information.

I HAVE given them thoughts to think about, and ideas to challenge their assumptions. This is one place I KNOW that you and I are very different, you see things very much black and white, like "this is so simple anyone who thinks different is an idiot" and "all you need is these three sentences" (not exact quotes)

Now, to both of you, I ask, how many people get to train with you directly, and how many people learn ABOUT what Parkour is (to SOME EXTENT) from reading it on websites?

12,500 ENGLISH SPEAKING members of Urban Freeflow, how many of them get the right message?
13,000 Visitors here, how many of them have had the privilege to train or speak directly with Dan or Andi? (Or David or Seb or someone from France)

So, I will say for the last time to both of you, because I am not expecting a satisfactory answer, and I am not trying to simply argue:

  • What I am looking for is a better way to describe Parkour to people and a way to clear up some of the common misconceptions.
  • I am looking for a way to do this in English words because there are thousands of people that read English words to get their impression of what Parkour is.
  • I agree that you cannot learn or feel parkour without going out and training. Some people I don't think will learn or feel it WITH training. (again agreeing with Andi)
  • I disagree that the methods and information readily available out there at this time is sufficient to give people a proper introduction to what Parkour is. That is part of why this site exists.

If you both don't feel this is a worthy cause then I'm sorry, I would love to have had your help and not your arguments.

I realize that I am partly at fault for the way I approach it with asking questions for other people to try to "dig deeper" into the conversation, and that you feel this will confuse people. Hopefully this post clarifies my actions and my reasons for them.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 06:04:54 AM by M2 »
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Offline Cliff Boz

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2005, 06:23:50 AM »
I'm going to have to say that discussions such as these are very helpful and thought-provoking for me, and I know for a fact, others. Some people make meaning better by doing, some by thinking and bouncing ideas off of others. Both are equally valid.

Live discussions can help some to make our own meaning out of what Parkour is. I'm not saying it helps us make our own "definition", no. I say "meaning" because what Parkour is to each of us on a deeply personal and individual level will vary.

Yeah there are definitely lines between Parkour, tricking, martial arts, acrobatics, and other things that really cannot fall under what Parkour has been outlined to be. But there is room for growth, individual interpretation, "successful" and "less-successful" movements, and freedom within the definitions of what is Parkour.

Also: ncparkour.com
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Offline RhayneD

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2005, 09:19:15 AM »
I do have to say that I wasn't expecting this kind of response, that's for sure. Having said that, I apologise for this taking on the monstrosity that it has. I'm a deep thinker/philosopher by nature, and having seen so many different "definitions" and "explanations" out there I wanted to see if what I understood parkour to be was in line with the "philosophy" that was meant when it was created.

I have to agree with a couple others here and say that many will only get their understanding of parkour from the internet or other means such as reading magazines and such. Some will only have this method to even discuss the concepts, so I can see what M2 is looking for and why. For me though, I look for the deeper meaning in things (not saying this should be the case always), but this is the sole method that I have to discuss and experience other's thoughts on parkour.

With that said, I have come to an understanding from chatting with and bouncing ideas off of another forum member outside the forums. Parkour is going to be different for each and every one of us. In this, we will all find our own true "meaning" so to speak. However, one has to understand first that there are guidelines to parkour as a whole. What I mean when I say this is, that in order for what we do to be called parkour, and not just "movement," tricking, martial arts, or (ohfomehxr, you'll get this one) Silly Walks, there needs to be a basic set of guidelines or structure. When one understands, trains, and progresses within these set or basic features that makes parkour what it is, then comes the understanding of "freedom" or "dis(de)placement." Then comes the philosophy so to speak. It's almost like a student at a Shao Lin Temple. In the beginning, he understands that he will learn to fight and defend himself and that there are basic movements and motivations behind his training. However, he will learn as he trains and progresses that there is more to it than just kicking, punching, and defending. 

I think that was what I was hung up on; why what we do is called "freedom" yet there are guidelines and "rules" if you will (meaning the reasons behind telling someone that they rolled wrong or their thief vault needs to be cleaned up). By reading here and chatting with someone else that pondered the same things (thanks bunches ohfomehxr), I realised that I was looking too hard for what others thought. As I said before, I first needed to understand that there is a reason that there are "moves" or "specific steps" or what have you, that make something parkour or not. Now that I understand that, have read here how others see it and feel, I realise that we will all have our own interpretations, which is good. What is a potato to one is a spud to another or mash to yet another. What may be good for me, may not work for someone else.

M2, I definitely understand what you are looking for though. I like to think of it from this point of view... There is a person interested in parkour in the middle-of-nowhere Kansas that doesn't speak French or have a French-speaker to explain. They have no one to train with or anyone to discuss it with. The only method they have to discuss or learn more about the 'subtext' of parkour is through the internet and forums such as this one. If there isn't a strong definition out there, if you will, they will walk around with misconceptions and misunderstanding about everything. If they happen upon someone else that becomes interested in parkour and they pass on those misconceptions and misunderstandings, it just perpetuates into something completely different. Definitely not of the good.

I think I'll go layer up and head out to find my 'way' within parkour in the snow. Should make for some softer bails. Thanks everyone that responded! You definitely helped me see a different coloured light.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 09:23:43 AM by RhayneD »
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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2005, 02:09:24 PM »
This may come out blunt over the internet, and I excuse if it does, because thats not whats intended. All I merely do is try to solve something here, and for those who don't know me, I really like Mark as a guy to train with,
and as a person and I want him to suceed in what he's trying to do. So take this as a friend talking to a friend.

Andi, I am not trying to win, or to turn anything around, I am trying to find a better way to explain it to people.
As you and Dan have both said now "Anyone I talk to / train knows EXACTLY what Parkour is".

Its because me and Andi don't make them think about anything other then the actual definition. We almost shove it down their throats.
My approach has always been, give them the straight up definition, no matter how much they dont like it,
tell them to learn it and go outside and train abiding its principals.
As I say on pkto, 'Go outside and move fast, efficiently, with that purpose and a goal'.
These all satisfied what Parkour is and if they train that way, with the definition in their heads, itll all click eventually.
Some people take a week, some people take a year. Thats fine... We shouldnt be trying to rush understanding of anything,
specially something where understanding something so simple.

It took me a while .. I know it took Andi a while too.

Theres mods on here that 2 months ago I watched them on UF and other sites post absolute nonsense!
I still don't think they know heads from tails. I really don't at all. Too many people in the Parkour scene think they do,
when they don't.. people just sorta jump ship back and forth. See it on pkto, parkour.net, here, uf.. everywhere.
These are people that have great potential, and they just have to figure it out themselves, get out there and train,
and thats that! The more you confuse these people the more its just going to become a site full of sheep.
I already pointed out that theres so many people that just follow you already blindly... you've been in a position for
3 years now to really nail down and teach people the proper ways... Unfortunetly it hasn't worked out so well...

When you create 1 sheep, the flock is not far away... And by confusing the masses you're in turn the herder.

I know this well... I was one on pkto when I first started it.
About a year ago I decided I'd change my ways because I was getting sick of it.
I lots some friends, lost a couple members...
You know what though... The ones that stayed read stuff ... Went hunting for info...
Admitted they didnt know much but were out there learning...
Posted the odd question here and there pertaining to the definitions....
And it created a group of guys that UNDERSTAND, and understand better then spoon feeding them on here.

Quote
I feel I can say the same thing. I have never (to the best of my knowledge, at least in the last 2 years) told someone that Parkour was something that it wasn't, or even given someone the wrong information.

It might not be the wrong information ... but its scewed information.

"From what I know, "The Art of movement" comes from "L'art Du deplacement""
"This is one of the "changes" that I feel have occurred right under people's noses but seems to have passed unnoticed by many."
"Actually, "forward movement" is the misunderstanding."
"Parkour itself and David's words from what I can tell don't actually specify forward."
"The problem i run into is that Displacement or Deplacement actually specifies NET movement."
"From Dictionary.com:
A vector or the magnitude of a vector from the initial position to a subsequent position assumed by a body.""

All these things just added confusion. They were all not needed and can't be positive in the learing experience at all,
because as I already pointed out, you have blind followers who just say, Yes Mark! to this stuff that makes no sense.

Quote
I HAVE given them thoughts to think about, and ideas to challenge their assumptions. This is one place I KNOW that you and I are very different, you see things very much black and white, like "this is so simple anyone who thinks different is an idiot" and "all you need is these three sentences" (not exact quotes)

As my approach differs from Andi because Im not 'austrian and a nazi'.... =P =P ... We are very similar.
I dont feel telling people they are wrong helps... Rather... To go read the definition more and
train with the principals and think about it better. Thats whats going to help.

I would never do what I did on here on pkto... break things down and add to the over analyzing...
This thread is so against my character and my style .. because I bought into .. in a sense .. what you were doing here
and whatever I was doing, however it makes sense to people who understand, isnt going to help someone who is just
here to agree with certain things certain people say, and thats it. Or a casual passer by-er...

So yes, I should have myself shutup this time and never gotten into this at all.... Or just translated your french phrase by
David Belle and then left on my merry way.

Quote
Now, to both of you, I ask, how many people get to train with you directly, and how many people learn ABOUT what Parkour is (to SOME EXTENT) from reading it on websites?

Including the Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa/American scenes Ive trained with well over 300 individual people.
I would say, 0 learn what Parkour is from 1 experience with me. Because it's just impossible to expect that.
Thats not the nature of this discipline, although very simple, people are born to overanalyze.

I will tell you 1 thing though....
The people who never went on UF here in Toronto have learnt Parkour exponentially faster
then the people who have gone on UF and had to erase previous vague meaning, and scewed misconceptions.

Again, I think the best understanding of Parkour and the best way to learn it... Is to have the principals there,
(having read and found them on the internet) and to go train ...
Eventually if you do this one day itll click, just like it does to most people.
If it doesn't click, that's fine as well. Parkour isnt the persons thing! It's not everyones cup of tea.

We say in Canada... and I quote ...

"C'est la simplicité du parkour qui semble compliquer les choses pour les débutants."
You guys can figure out how to translate that. =P

What does American Parkour have right now that really gives people solid info? Not a hell of a lot...
The forums are already a massive hole of confusion within the masses...
So again... You're point is valid and justified, but it again comes back and sticks a finger your way..
And you're upto the same stuff you were doing on UF.

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12,500 ENGLISH SPEAKING members of Urban Freeflow, how many of them get the right message?

That should show you right there that you guys were doing something VERY WRONG at UF.
I dont want to comment on that further because most people who know me already know what I think about UF.
But you guys NEVER posted ANY solid information on there. NEVER.
When I posted it, it was erased.
The point you try to make with this sort of thing only ends up slapping you back in the face because you were one at fault there bigtime.

Quote
So, I will say for the last time to both of you, because I am not expecting a satisfactory answer, and I am not trying to simply argue:

  • What I am looking for is a better way to describe Parkour to people and a way to clear up some of the common misconceptions.
  • I am looking for a way to do this in English words because there are thousands of people that read English words to get their impression of what Parkour is.
  • I agree that you cannot learn or feel parkour without going out and training. Some people I don't think will learn or feel it WITH training. (again agreeing with Andi)
  • I disagree that the methods and information readily available out there at this time is sufficient to give people a proper introduction to what Parkour is. That is part of why this site exists.

If you both don't feel this is a worthy cause then I'm sorry, I would love to have had your help and not your arguments.

Stop beating around the Bush. Stop being so neutral. Get the facts and give it to them.
You can still make them think... But theres a time and place. When they dont even know the basics of what Parkour is
then you shouldnt be challenging them any further..... 1 step at a time!

You can learn from the internet, the principals of Parkour. Like I said...
And thats what these sites are good for, to clear up misconceptions.. To give people who come to a Parkour site knowing nothing,
proper info. NOT to send them into a spiral of death thinking ... Man could running in a circle be parkour? Could putting an egg back
in a container be Parkour?

The people who read that sorta stuff tend to think about THAT more then they do what Parkour is... Like I quotes Steez ..
Look where it makes members end up! Coming up with things like Art of Fast Running and stuff like that...

PARKOUR IS THIS. GO LEARN THIS.

THEN once they learnt that .. Challenge their minds. Thats IN MY OPINION what a good teacher does.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 02:13:06 PM by Parkourdan »

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2005, 02:10:19 PM »
Wow .. Im sorry that was so long.
Eek.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2005, 04:43:33 PM »
OK fine. You want to point to facts and say "scewed", I can't respond to that.

So what are these two things:

PARKOUR IS THIS. GO LEARN THIS.

THEN once they learnt that .. Challenge their minds. Thats IN MY OPINION what a good teacher does.

If you tell me that in a way people can clearly understand, I can put it here and end this post, it will have served it's purpose. If I am at fault for what I have done in the past, then give me a chance to make it up.

But then is that the last post we should ever have on an internet forum and not be allowed to talk about the other things that some other people are ready to discuss?


« Last Edit: December 10, 2005, 05:50:09 AM by M2 »
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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2005, 05:27:31 PM »
Yes, no more talking, reference video HERE

As for the "THIS" and "THIS"...

"Basically, Parkour is a natural method to train the human body to be able to move forward quickly, making use of the environment that's around us at any given time. This 'art of displacement' requires neither specific structure nor accessory for its practice. The body is the only tool. It's an athletic discipline accessible to all, because it combines all the natural skills of the human body: running, jumping, climbing... It's a sport that permits exploration of the potential offered by your body.
It's about being able to face the obstacles with which you are presented, whether they be in the natural environment or in the urban environment, in a search for movement that combines effectiveness and control."

This is a short excerpt from the article that can be found HERE on parkour.net

The rest of the article does a pretty good job summing up the basic idea. In short form, it's a method of choosing a path and following it through any environment in an effecient and effective way. So, to go train "THIS", you would choose an environment, choose a path, and find a quick and efficient way through it. Then, turn around and do it again, finding the different options for effecient movement and creative paths.  As long as you are focusing on the obstacle and the goal rather than some specific move, you will eventually begin to realize what Parkour entails. That is my opinion, anyway. :D
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 05:29:15 PM by gear »

Offline Alex \"Ace\" Scott

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2005, 11:03:33 PM »
...... *applause!!!!!* :D ;D I just gotta say, I am really impressed with Danno's and Gear's last posts. I thought they were well thought out, and said everything pretty straight forward and ended up being very effective! Also, RhayneD, I gotta give you props here for doing what you're doing. Asking questions and really putting alot of thought into what you're doing. Not that alot of people here haven't done that already, but as a more or less new to the scene traceur, I'm really impressed with your progression as far as understanding goes. :)
-Tell me how you MOVE, and I'll tell you who you ARE-

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2005, 09:56:51 AM »
+1 for the clear messages...discussions are fine, as long as everyone knows the ground rules first...it's no use complicating things when no-one knows anything to start with. It may be that you've never given an unclear messsage to everyone you've spoken to in person, but in choosing to make a website you have decided to speak to people via this medium too - and you should therefore give as clear a message via t'interweb (perhaps even more so) than you do face-to-face. Discussions have helped me alot, but only once I got the basic concept.

Believe me, for the sake of the U.S. scene don't go repeating UF's mistakes. You have no idea what a shit state the scene is over here in the UK...

Offline Flippusmn

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2005, 10:44:51 AM »
I know what parkour is, it's fun. ;)
BTW parkourdan, you feel really strongly about this don't you? Props for that and that giguntic reply. ;D lol
Parkour can make you or break you, each of which I have experienced. ~Feel the Flow~ "Don't think with your balls, think with your brain." -Houston

Offline andi k

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2005, 11:25:15 AM »
dan you bitch, thanks to reading your wayy too long post i just missed the bus and will be 1 hour late for work. THANKYOU, bitch  ;D

great post btw


nuff said.

Offline Skipper

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2005, 01:55:44 PM »
LOL, i had to put a book mark halfway though so i could finish it later. someone should frame that so he never has to type that all ever again..

if someone doesnt get it, just link him to the page long post!  ;D

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2005, 02:39:31 PM »
Yeah I have never read a post that long before.  :o  ;D
Parkour can make you or break you, each of which I have experienced. ~Feel the Flow~ "Don't think with your balls, think with your brain." -Houston