Author Topic: To Define Freedom  (Read 22381 times)

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2005, 10:14:57 AM »
OK, I didn't mean to imply that "Art of Movement" was a correct translation of "Art du Deplacement", I'm only saying that that's where the phrase came from, which is where it did come from, incorrectly or not. This is a point I feel needs to be cleared up to help stop misunderstandings in the community.

As for Displacement, Dan I have to disagree ... saying that there is a "flavor" to the word doesn't change the definition!!
Quote
"Déplacement is forward movement"
is an incorrect statement according to the definition of the word!!!

I agree with "forward movement" in terms of advancement, but not in terms of "physical forward".

Here
Quote
"Thats forward when it comes to Parkour. 'I have to get THERE, how do I get there, I move forward, over that, around that, up that, down that, I move forward to my destination'."

You are giving "Forward" a new definition in relation to Parkour. I agree with what you're saying, but this is YOUR definition, not the accepted definition of the word Forward. In the sentence above you've used "Forward" in two different meanings in the same sentence, one is physical, one is theoretical, I think that this may be confusing.


I Disagree that doing Parkour in a 4 block pattern as I laid out makes it not Parkour, or just practice ... as you pointed out in B13 (which I'm not sure is the best example, but it is a chase scene so I'll go with it) .. his displacement isn't the same as the amount he traveled ... in which case you're practically arguing my side of it, that it is the movement you do, not the net displacement, which is important.

Frankly, I think this is a niggling point that I don't really care to argue, but so many people seem to have the wrong definition of displacement, and "the Art of Movement" seems to have penetrated the community to an annoying level, so I think it's worth clarifying!!



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Offline Bachelarius

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2005, 11:06:45 AM »
Like I said, there is more than one kind of displacement. You are talking about linear displacement, but if you look at circular displacement, it does not go in a straight line, it is the shortest possible distance to reach someplace, eg. 540* will be equal to 180*, as it cuts out all the wasted movement. Pretty much what happens in parkour. Wasted movement is ignored. I know it's not a direct link, but a bit of a roundabout one, but I think that was the original idea behind the term.

trailing completely off topic, m2, you owe me a pm ;) :P
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Parkourdan

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2005, 12:06:17 PM »
Youre being too literal again... think of these words in relevance to Parkour, not your dictionary, for when your moving your dictionary has very little say in what you do.

Though...

Déplacement = Changement de place. (Non physics defintion)
Displacement = To move or shift from the usual place or position (Non physics definition)

Seems similar to me! Why did you have to pick......
Quote
From Dictionary.com:
A vector or the magnitude of a vector from the initial position to a subsequent position assumed by a body.

When there was a better use of the word on the site... Looks like you are being too literal specially since dictionary.com classified that definition for physics use.

Quote
You are giving "Forward" a new definition in relation to Parkour.

Im giving you what David Belle considers Forward In Parkour. I dont care what you agree with really because im not trying to give you my opinion... In Parkour you have to get somewhere. Thats the main point. It is something learnt so that you can get somewhere like Davids Father would have had to when running away in the war, or going to rescue someone in a fire....etc.

All of these situations you do not end up in the same spot you started. You are FORWARD no matter the direction, you went somewhere. Like David said many times. You move forward each time you travel over/under/up something. And you moved Forward to your destination. Again UF messed up this whole part SOOO bad.

The 'man-power' jump in b13 is a lot diffrent then running in a circle. I have no idea why you think or are trying to compare what I wrote to something similar you did. I thought I pretty much babied it and was pretty clear how it differed.

I dunno what else to say but try and read my posts again with a much more open mind focus'ing less on the english language. No offence meant with this but ... I really think you should drop most of the analogies you've been using since 2 years ago, since most of them are wrong and are really just a misunderstanding of Parkour...
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 12:18:22 PM by Parkourdan »

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2005, 01:51:24 PM »
"... drop old analogies" ... that's what I'm trying to do, but I'm having a hard time.  ???

I also feel that this misconception is out there in a large scale, and at least for me your correction isn't fixing the problem or getting me away from the "bad" information.

I guess I learned "displacement" in physics, and I don't see what you're saying as a "non physics" definition as being not physics, if it moves (net movement) then it is displacement. All the other definitions mean this same thing as well, "taken from the usual place", etc. If you take an egg form the carton, but then put it back, no displacement, physics or not, but the egg may have traveled to many countries in between.

I know this little thing is getting in the way of the bigger message, which is that parkour is about movement, but again with "what I know" I can't see what you're saying about "forward" as having so much to do with it, you are giving your own definitions for forward, and then saying "as it relates to parkour" ... but this implies an understanding of parkour, which, if everyone had that understanding, there would be no need for clarification.

What I am seeking here is clarification for people who have the wrong idea of parkour, and have the wrong idea about the "Art Du De placement" and how we can tell these people  why that is wrong, and what Parkour really is. I think if we could do that, something good will have been done.

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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2005, 02:55:57 PM »
Allow me to add ...
Dan, with what you're saying, I don't feel confident that I could turn around and set somebody straight, that's what I'dlike to be able to do.
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Offline Bachelarius

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2005, 03:11:02 PM »
That I think is the point. It's your net movement which matters. Parkour is the art of displacement, it cuts out all the useless movements and only focusses on the useful stuff. Like I said before, this is not a straightforward idea, it's a derrivative of a chain of thought.

What does displacement do? it cuts out all the twisting and the turning and throws it out of the window. It focuses more on the direct route, the shortest route possible (which is not always a straight line, you can have displacement which follows other shapes, sorry to keep saying this, but it is a point most people do not know... the only reason I know it is because I study maths at whatever level you guys have just before uni, is it college like us?).

The last point is that you will not be able to explain parkour with 3 words, Parkour is something which needs you to sit down with the confused person, and talk them through it, otherwise they simply will not get it. A short, snappy line will always be misunderstood, it simply needs to be short, snappy and interesting. It will not be able to completely cure all the misconceptions, no matter how much we want it to.
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2005, 03:15:02 PM »
Hmm ... I don't think what I was asking for was a 3 word definiton of what is parkour ...

And here you're saying Parkour is the art if displacement ... for the sake of argument, if you go home at night your displacement for the day is 0. But let's carry that on ourselves and not infere with my conversation with Dan :)

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2005, 03:20:14 PM »
Would, "The art of running" work?

or perhaps something along those lines, because running implies quick movement to somewhere.

The art of purposeful running?

i hope you see what i'm getting at....running is much more specific than movement or displacement, and of course there is climbing, but thats what explaining in detail is for....

Offline Skipper

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2005, 03:58:23 PM »
Well, running is already a sport, and we arent JUST running either, it involves other movements. I dont know if i read it right, but i though M2 WASNT looking for a 3 word definition, because i just dont think it could be done and have people understand what it means enough to differentiate it from anything else.

Offline Alex \"Ace\" Scott

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2005, 04:22:23 PM »
The art of progressive movement/motion.
-Tell me how you MOVE, and I'll tell you who you ARE-

"For every newbie that says Parkour is what you want it to be- God kills a Kitten." -Ruzkin

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2005, 04:31:54 PM »
yes, running is a sport, but not an art.

i know he wasn't looking for a 'three-word definition', but if you are trying to explain parkour to someone who hasn't heard of it before, i usually find that this is a good line to start the explanation with.  it implies that is more than a sport, and also gets across the point of going somewhere quickly/efficiently. 

it starts out your explanation with something relatively specific, vs, 'the art of movement', or, 'jumping off of things'
it also gets the correct idea behind "L'art du deplacement" across the language barrier in a better manner than 'the art of displacement'. 

so, skipper, i agree with your point that you cannot define parkour with this phrase, or with any simple phrase, but i find that it goes a long way in explaining what parkour really is to those who have no idea what the word symbolizes.

i put this into the discussion because it has worked for me.  i have gotten a much better response and fewer confused looks when i start out with this idea, than i have with the art of movement or freerunning, for example. 

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2005, 06:08:39 PM »
You can say "It's an art that hones your ability to follow any path through any environment. You basically treat every environment like an abstacle course, and find take whatever path you choose through a variety of efficient techniques"

If they can't sit through that, then they aren't that interested anyway.

As for the rest of the discussion, I think that delving so deep into the semantics is losing focus on the point "how do you define freedom". Since we have decided that the freedom we speak of isn't exactly "freedom to do anything you want", bur rather, "freedom to follow any route you want" then it becomes a non-point. I have a feeling that M2 is aware that it wasn't David's intention to mean "the art of ANY movement", so his point in arguing that line of thought must merely be a tool for discussion. The problem with this is that it can be confusing to those who wish to base their opinion on somebody else's quotes. It's hard to sit here and argue the words behind Parkour when the words mean absolutely nothing when you're actually practicing it. The only thing I can say is; you will know what it is when you are finally doing it. Until then it will be these vague and abstract concepts, but once you stop and realize that you were no longer consciously choosing individual moves but were rather adapting seamlessly to the environment and the path, you'll look back on all this discussion and wonder why it took so much to describe something that is essentially wordless.

But alas, this is the downfall of our internet culture. There isn't that much to talk about when it comes to Parkour. I think most forums could do with a FAQ and a jam thread and be done with it, because it's all been brought up before, numerous times. I think an important exercise that might cap off this discussion nicely is this: go outside, find a group of obstacles and just move through them in as many different ways as you can. Try to be quicker and more effecient with each pass, and try to think about the next move less and less. If you're in the middle of a string of seamless movement and you're still wondering about a written definition, then perhaps you're too stuck on the words for there to be much hope. It's about the movement, pure and simple, and all the words in the world can't touch that.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 06:10:44 PM by gear »

Offline andi k

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2005, 06:12:03 PM »
i dont know what the f#ck youre argueing about ?

m2, you ask for an argument to turn people around that have the wrong information ? ok, will give you.

Quote
Parkour is an art to help you passing any obstacle to go from point A to point B only with the human body possibilities.

Understand that this art has been created by few soldiers in Vietnam to escape or reach: and this is the spirit I'd like parkour to keep. You have to make the difference between what is useful and what is not in emergency situations. Then You'll know what is parkour and what is not.

(David Belle)

THAT IS ALL ONE NEEDS TO KNOW.  you can link the people:

http://www.pawa.fr/Welcome/welcome.html

you always talk soooooooo f#cking much, but this isnt how it should be, m2. parkour is not the art of argueing and discussing it on the internet, paaaaaaages long.  parkour is a pretty easy concept. it can be described SO easily (hence the quote of david belle above).  

the problem about the misunderstandings (sorry if u feel blamed here, but somehow you are, actually) is people like you, who argue paaaaaaaaaaaaaaages long about things that are very clear, that is what confuses people.

you guys are in the wrong job. if you are here for argueing about little banal (does that word exist in english?) things, then you should leave parkour, and start a debating club or soemthing.

teh more you talk about something, the more you try to interpret what was being said or what is basic, and try to make it soooooooo detailed,  the more you switch things, turn things around, and complicate it, and the more you will mislead ppls and their understandings.

so please stop, seriously.




nuff said.

Parkourdan

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2005, 07:45:08 PM »
Seriously.

Its bad, because as I told Gear.. what happens is it creates the same mindless people that are found all over UF,
that you partially helped create before with the same not getting to be point beating around the bush. Look at the
people who mindless-ly just agree to anything you say on this board already, and in the american scene...

If thats how you want the community to be, people who agree with you in this thread when your wrong...
Then thats cool, but this site will lose alot of respect that way and if thats the case it wont be long till its indeed called the 2nd UF.

I wouldnt like that to happen, and I know you guys wouldnt ... So why with the same stuff.
Why with the pointless arguments.

Déplacement/ForwardMovement/Parkour/AtoB... whatever.. they are so easy. Everyone just go out and do them. Stop thinking about them.

Im sorry I just really bothered and annoyed because it just adds to the garbage that keeps pilling up.
I can try to explain something 10 ways but if each way people just try to pick it apart from another angle,
when it does make sense, then its rather hopeless from my end.
Then in turn people, even from this site, have to come talk to me on msn for clarification..
Although I have no problem doing it, it shouldnt be happening.

Cheers.

If anyone wants me to continue in this thread... Please ask a specific question pertaining to the topic...
Or like usual bug me on msn when Im there. hah.

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2005, 08:48:59 PM »
okay, question!

please do not take this as an attack, it IS indeed a request for clarification.

what makes your answer better than mine, or anyone else's? i can understand how Belle's or even Foucan's answers will be better than mine, because of who they are, and what they have done.

BUT, these two men are French.  I am American.  I do not speak French.  These two men speak English, but of course, the language barrier will always be in the way to some degree.

in this case, then why is it NOT necessary to pick apart definitions in search of the true meaning?


Offline Tyson Cecka

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2005, 09:29:54 PM »
Quote
why is it NOT necessary to pick apart definitions in search of the true meaning?

because the true meaning can't be found in words or in argueing over the words. Go out and move with a purpose, a destination, and the true meaning will come. Sounds corny, but seriously I can understand what people are trying to say through the language barrier not because I dissect their definitions but because I understand the mindset that is creating them, the mindset of a traceur.

Offline Brian Belida

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2005, 09:38:08 PM »
And I'm a firm believer that there is such a thing as "over-analysis."

Parkourdan

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2005, 09:55:22 PM »
what makes your answer better than mine, or anyone else's?

Im not saying I know more then anyone. Im saying through my words David Belle knows more then anyone.
I have spent more time then anyone on this board researching, talking to french traceurs, etc etc etc... From this..
I dont speak my own opinion anymore, that you can get on msn if you wish... I speak exactly what Ive learnt the past years.
What I showed and still to this day show is utter humility to those who know more about Parkour then I do and to David Belle himself.
I do not challenge their method for they have over a decade of experience over anyone in the Internet communities.
And thats pretty much it in a nutshell.

I will say again, being a french speaker has helped me a great deal...,
but no more then being humble and accepting the simple words of Parkour as what they are.

Hope that makes sense.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2005, 09:59:11 PM »
Andi and Dan yo both make some good points, but I'm afraid that I feel you can't see my point of view though.

My point of view is that there are a LOT of people out there with the wrong information, and unless we tell them WHY it is wrong, and WHAT is wrong with it, then it will just be perpetuated.

Your solution seems to be two things:
1. Just go train. Which I agree with, but I don't think that's working, at least not for everyone.
2. Read DB's definition. - Also not working, there is still a lot of misunderstanding.

I don't think it helps when you both take my words literally to mean that I am asking a question for myself when you both know damn well that  know the answer, and that I am asking the question for the sake of conversation with the hope of clarity.

I'm afraid that I find your attitudes to be not helpful, and I feel very frustrated right now, I'm not even sure what to say.

Dan, if you want to help every person in the world by talking to them over IM one at a time that's fine, but I feel it's much more efficient to have a conversation and ask the questions they ask over and over in a public forum, so that 1,000s of people can "watch" the conversation instead of each having to have it for themselves.

Andi, your method seems to be to jump up and down and say f#ck f#ck and use loooong exaggerated words. I don't find that helpful either. I have never told anyone that Parkour was the art of arguing, although I do enjoy discussing things, I don't call it Parkour :) I also can't agree that I "switch things around" by using the definitons of words.

I am not challenging David Belle's words or the value of training, I am challinging that a posted definiton on a website that isn't even live isn't getting the message out to everyone, and that we need a better way.

Of course it is quite possible that I have the wrong approach and that what I do is not helpful to people, but aside from both of your comments (and a few others) I haven't seen much evidence of this.

I think it is also possible that we simply have different ways of thinking, and therefore may not agree with each other on the "right way" to do certain things, and that it is entirely possible that there is more than one right way to do something.
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Offline Rafe

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Re: To Define Freedom
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2005, 10:29:52 PM »
M2 I have to say I see Dan and Andi's point allot here.
I think Rhayned got a very good response that inspired her to ponder and train
thats really the best you can do to help someone understand parkour.
For me basically everthing you have said in the discussion has just simply served to confuse the issue,
I can hardly follow what your saying.
Its seems to me you are taking the most obscure definations of a word
and twist it around ignoring what people
who actuall speak the language in question are saying.
 I know that you have this idea that by playing the devils advocate you can clarify the issues.
Sometimes thats true but as dan has said you have been doing it for 2 years
 and I don't see any evidence it has helped. Look at the situation at UFF.
 In the end parkour is very simple, however I don't think you can understand it untill you train it,
you can not baby people allong with essays of explantion
you can only point them down the path and let them train.
I love to disagree with andi but I think he is right arguing so much
about this just implies there something to argue about parkour is simple
it just requires a certain dedication to understand.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 12:22:45 AM by Faelcind »
I shall not fear, fear is the mind killer the little death that precedes total obliteration

I will face my fear, I will let it pass over and through me and were it is gone, I will turn the inner eye and see its path, and only I will remain.