Author Topic: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow  (Read 4408 times)

Offline Mark Toorock

  • M2
  • Administrator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3087
  • Karma: +302/-72
    • View Profile
    • American Parkour
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2010, 11:06:07 AM »
Woah - systematically lying and intentionally misleading people to give them money? I'd need a reference for that to stand.


The split between David and Seb was pre 2003 - so 2002 or earlier, not a time when UF was already around.

There was not a single online community, unless you mean UF itself? and in that case how can UF be blamed if all it wanted was to have a single online community?


And UF didn't split the community, the community split itself. Because some people liked UF and others didn't doesn't make UF responsible, that it like saying that I personally divided the world into people who believe in my ideals and people who don't.


You can also look at Parkour.net - which turned into a total shitstorm from lack of moderation. It WAS a great resource but then ended up being a lot of bitter people.


As for devoting themselves more to media work, I think Tempest blows UF away for that, and they are awesome guys and nobody hates them. All they do is media! They do go to some jams, but they exist to do professional work and they do a great job at it!

My $.02.
Be Useful.
If I don't try to make the world a better place, who will?
Every person has a choice - live by your fears or live by your dreams

Offline DaveS

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
  • Karma: +12/-6
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2010, 01:31:38 PM »
Woah - systematically lying and intentionally misleading people to give them money? I'd need a reference for that to stand.
Quote from: UrbanFreeflow.com
URBAN FREEFLOW - THE OFFICIAL WORLDWIDE PARKOUR & FREERUNNING NETWORK
A lot of the original evidence was on the UF forum that no longer exists (precisely because people deleted things that didn't show them in a positive light), but there are records on other websites. I included links in my first post to further evidence, but it's worth noting also that the first line of their current website is a lie.

There was not a single online community, unless you mean UF itself? and in that case how can UF be blamed if all it wanted was to have a single online community?
And UF didn't split the community, the community split itself. Because some people liked UF and others didn't doesn't make UF responsible,
I didn't say one website, I said one community. It's true though, it was largely based around the UF website.

UF has to take the brunt of the blame for the division because it was their actions that alienated the rest of the community. It was their decision to try and present themselves as separate and above the rest of the community, it was also their decision to use dishonest methods, and it was those things that caused the animosity. UF split off from the rest of the community, not the other way round.

Sure, Parkour.NET had moderation issues, but I don't see what that's got to do with this discussion of UF (except that UF contributed to the general ill-feeling in the Parkour community).
~ Dave
NorthernParkour and the British Parkour Coaching Association

Offline klaymen

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
  • Karma: +28/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2010, 02:20:50 PM »
A lot of the original evidence was on the UF forum that no longer exists (precisely because people deleted things that didn't show them in a positive light), but there are records on other websites. I included links in my first post to further evidence, but it's worth noting also that the first line of their current website is a lie.
I didn't say one website, I said one community. It's true though, it was largely based around the UF website.

This is true. The only thing we can do at this point is speculate since there is no evidence, and no one could possible remember every post they ever read.



As for the separation of Free Running and Parkour, I believe that was more community driven than a product of U$F. I've said it before, and I still believe, that this is a good move. Why even still use two words if they have the exact same meaning?

Offline Scott Berson

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2010, 02:46:00 PM »
I think what a lot of people have a problem with here is the attitude of the place.
Until recently (since they've been doing all this world news stuff recently) tons and tons of posts on the site were all about

LOOK WE GOT A T SHIRT BUY T SHIRTS T SHIRTS GLYPH T SHIRTS BACKPACKS T SHIRTS

And that really ticked a lot of people off. That along with the whole Australian thing (which I'm not sure anyone knows the FULL details of).

Similarly, there still just seems to be a feud between them and APK. Like the comment Ez posted when Jumpmag came out and someone was like

"Oh it's kinda like APK's thing!"

and he went

"That thing APK has is nowhere close to a magazine..."

Is he telling the truth? Yeah, kinda, but do you have to do it with such a "screw you" attitude?



<div><a href="http://www.theeca.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.theeca.com/graphics/memberBanners/140398.jpg" width="255" height="83" alt="I'm a Member at theeca.com" />[/url]</div>

Offline DaveS

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
  • Karma: +12/-6
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 05:51:58 AM »
This is true. The only thing we can do at this point is speculate since there is no evidence, and no one could possible remember every post they ever read.
There is evidence, in the discussions and accounts on other websites and in the memories of the people who were there. Just follow the links. It's just not first-hand evidence for people coming new to this issue, so I suppose yes, for them there is an element of speculation.
~ Dave
NorthernParkour and the British Parkour Coaching Association

Offline Mark Toorock

  • M2
  • Administrator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3087
  • Karma: +302/-72
    • View Profile
    • American Parkour
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 09:40:49 AM »
Yes, it is "evidence" but I'd like to remind you that there are two sides to every story. I'd say if you want real evidence then talk to me, Kerbie, Dan Edwardes, Forrest, Bam, anyone who was actually part of UF. This si not to say that those people's opinions were formed for no reason - clearly they were formed for a reason, but unless you know those people and their motivations, and the other people and their motivations, then you are really only getting one side (or less) of the story.


I haven't actually looked at the links, I will sometime, but I can tell you much of what was said in the past was not based on facts but rather opinions, which is fine, but I wouldn't take an opinion as fact or even as definitive.

It is very clear that a lot of people hated UF and had very strong reasons, I'm just saying try to examine both (or all?) sides of the story.
Be Useful.
If I don't try to make the world a better place, who will?
Every person has a choice - live by your fears or live by your dreams

Offline Gareth EE Field

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 375
  • Karma: +16/-7
  • Aaayyooo!!!
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2010, 09:53:26 AM »
UF's video, "Guerillas in the midst" helped inspire me to movement. For that I'll always be thankful. Their forums, back in the day when I posted there, were full of frustrating *****, and when they visited New York, they were very rude. For that, we'll never be friends. Ain't noooobody gonna front on my mentor and get away with it. If I ever see Blue I will attempt a dropkick, at the very least.
PK4LIFE!

Offline DaveS

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
  • Karma: +12/-6
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2010, 02:19:57 PM »
Yes, it's always worth trying to hear other sides of the story. However, I wish people the very best of luck trying to get certain members of UF to justify their actions. Questioning the wisdom of UF was, after all, an offense worthy of post deletion or a ban on the UF forums.

Also, I'm not sure how many different ways it's possible to interpret things like consistent dishonesty and personal attacks. There are only so many times you can be kicked before it starts to lose it's ambiguity.
~ Dave
NorthernParkour and the British Parkour Coaching Association

Offline Mark Toorock

  • M2
  • Administrator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3087
  • Karma: +302/-72
    • View Profile
    • American Parkour
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2010, 05:12:45 PM »
Again, I am not totally disagreeing with you, just saying that I feel that the people against UF often went as overboard as some of the people on UF :)

In any case there were definitely good people and good things that came of it, so sometimes it is nice to focus on the positive, and I'm not saying that in a "forget the negatives" kind of way.

To me, UF had a very important role in the development of Parkour for better or worse, and I think that there was more "better" than people are willing to admit, because yes, some of the "worse" was pretty bad at times.

Be Useful.
If I don't try to make the world a better place, who will?
Every person has a choice - live by your fears or live by your dreams

Offline klaymen

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
  • Karma: +28/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2010, 05:45:20 PM »
To me, UF had a very important role in the development of Parkour for better or worse, and I think that there was more "better" than people are willing to admit, because yes, some of the "worse" was pretty bad at times.



I can agree with this, though I think your overall perception of the situations may have been skewed due to being part of UF at the time (not blaming you for anything, it would be natural human behaviour).

That being said, I am really happy that you split with them and created APK. For all the shit that you get from a lot of people, I really don't think anyone else could have done a better job and I am overall happy with how AmericanParkour has turned out. (except for the fact that the tutorial videos are still not online for free  ;) )

Offline Mark Toorock

  • M2
  • Administrator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 3087
  • Karma: +302/-72
    • View Profile
    • American Parkour
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2010, 06:37:47 PM »
Hey thanks Klaymen :)

And we have to eat somehow - there are free versions - just better versions on the DVD.

Be Useful.
If I don't try to make the world a better place, who will?
Every person has a choice - live by your fears or live by your dreams

Offline J. Gabriel Alvarez Manilla

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2010, 06:42:27 PM »
Thanks everyone. I've learned quite a bit now.
The Great Way is universal,
it can apply to the left or the right.
All beings depend on it for life,
and it does not refuse.


Offline klaymen

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
  • Karma: +28/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2010, 10:07:17 AM »
I feel like anyone that is going to buy the DVD either already has, or will buy it regardless of whether lower quality versions are online... but then again, I don't have the sales numbers, cost of running the site, etc., so I can't say for sure.

I just feel like the overall benefit to new members would be great. Then again, my idealism tends to override all other factors in most situations.

Poor people who can't justify spending money for the tutorial video will just pirate it anyways, like I definitely didn't...

Offline Luke MC

  • Oryctolagus Cuniculus
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Etre fort pour etre utile.
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2010, 02:03:12 PM »
reasons

DaveS, I've read this article before a while ago, but upon checking it out again just now I realised something strange. It's credited as being written by D. Edwardes. Is that Dan Edwardes from Parkour Generations? And if so, what the hell? This is a part of the Parkour time line that I truly have no knowledge of. Could anybody fill me in here?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 02:09:02 PM by Luke MC »

Offline DaveS

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
  • Karma: +12/-6
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the origins of Urban Freeflow
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2010, 06:18:32 PM »
Yes, it's the same Dan Edwardes.

Dan made his name in the Parkour community by writing article for the UF website. If you go back to 2006 Dan, Forrest and Stephane were all in UF. Dan and Forrest taught most of the UF classes back then. Stephane joined UF for a short time but then he left and took Dan and Forrest with him (a whole bunch of people left UF around that time). A short time later, they started Parkour Generations (initially Parkour Coaching).
~ Dave
NorthernParkour and the British Parkour Coaching Association