Author Topic: Graffiti  (Read 8392 times)

Offline Astrauk

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2010, 07:34:15 PM »
Never said traceurs weren't guilty of trespassing sometimes, and just cause they do it doesn't make it right.  And as I said they are still trespassing but if someone brought it up to them and asked them to leave I'm sure most of them would apologize and leave.  Where as there's no confusion when your doing graffiti without permission on property you don't own.

Offline hfksla

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2010, 07:41:23 PM »
public property isnt trespassing
who owns where you train?
Who owns dam du lac?
Shut up and Train
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Offline mickeynotmouse

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2010, 09:30:27 PM »
Point that hasn't been addressed enough:

If you practice some parkour in a spot, and then you leave. What happens to that spot afterward? Is there any damage done? Is there any trace left?

Now,

If you tag a wall (Be it beautiful or not: This is irrelevant). Is there a lasting consequence?


Yes.


Offline Ethan Nicholson

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2010, 11:51:29 PM »
Most of the time, the rubber from the bottom of your shoes will be left as big, ugly black marks on walls every time you slip up.
And, if you aren't careful (even if you make a few mistakes, coming down too hard etc), you can damage parts of your surroundings, leaving them as a potential risk factor for any traceur, or even any kid that likes to walk across bars in public.

I'd point out, no matter how good you are, you will probably ever leave some rubber burns or some damage done to concrete, bricks, rails and stuff like that, no matter how minor. In that respect, parkour does indeed leave a trace. Some spots just don't have great structural integrity, leaving them vulnerable to much damage of multiple types by traceurs.

Offline Josh Boggs

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2010, 12:33:17 PM »
public property isnt trespassing
who owns where you train?
Who owns dam du lac?
In Pilgrimage, for example, they said something about Dam Du Lac. They said if they keep putting fences up, they'll jump over them, if there is security, they will go out night, etc. So from that, I'm guessing its private property. Therefor trespassing if you are over on it.
Point that hasn't been addressed enough:

If you practice some parkour in a spot, and then you leave. What happens to that spot afterward? Is there any damage done? Is there any trace left?

Now,

If you tag a wall (Be it beautiful or not: This is irrelevant). Is there a lasting consequence?


Yes.


Pilgrimage pointed this out too.
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Offline John George 'JG'

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2010, 03:03:43 PM »
I'm starting to feel that ground is not being gained in this conversation.
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Offline mickeynotmouse

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2010, 02:43:10 PM »
In Pilgrimage, for example, they said something about Dam Du Lac. They said if they keep putting fences up, they'll jump over them, if there is security, they will go out night, etc. So from that, I'm guessing its private property. Therefor trespassing if you are over on it.Pilgrimage pointed this out too.





I believe different people have different beliefs, and that if one traceur behaves a certain way, it doesn't mean all others do the same.

I train with a (I guess you could say large) group. And I can assure you we all have respect for any and all spots we mess about in. This includes any rubber marks left or damage to any structure. (And litter, of course ;))

So while I'm not saying traceurs are perfect, I AM saying that parkour doesn't necessarily mean destruction or damage to any kind of property.

Offline EpicMovement

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2010, 04:38:58 PM »
"Graffiti is one of the few tools you have if you have almost nothing.
And even if you don't come up with a picture to cure world poverty you can
make someone smile while they're having a piss." -Banksy

"the people who run our cities dont understand graffiti because they think nothing has the right to exist unless it makes a profit...
the people who truly deface our neighborhoods are the companies that scrawl giant slogans across buildings and buses trying to make us feel inadequate unless we buy their stuff....
any advertisement in public space that gives you no choice whether you see it or not is yours, it belongs to you ,, its yours to take, rearrange and re use.Asking for permission is like asking to keep a rock someone just threw at your head...." -Banksy

"You owe the companies nothing. You especially don't owe them any courtesy. They have re-arranged the world to put themselves in front of you. They never asked for your permission, don't even start asking for theirs."  -Banksy

As a traceur and an artist, I have to make due with the combination of the two biggest loves of my life. I'm not trying to persuade people here that graffiti is something that should be lawful. We all have our opinions.

However, I will say that because of what I've learned through the discipline, I'm not going to disregard parkour if I find myself needing to use it. As a traceur I would never use the name of parkour to any authorities in the case of me getting caught, but I sure as hell would use everything I've learned to get myself away from the situation.

Thats part of what parkour is to me, to use my training in real life practice. You can call me a horrible person for using parkour this way, I don't care. The philosophy of parkour, the leave no trace, the commercialization of the art, all things that people have stuck with a very basic human ability... Moving. I feel as if parkour is gaining a following of very like minded people who shun anything out of the ordinary. Once again, I know full and well graffiti is illegal, but I'm not going to stop training because of it.

I have to ask. If parkour was illegal, would you stop doing it? Maybe you wouldn't go to your favorite spot and train for hours on end in front of cops, maybe you would. Because... as stated, that would be illegal, and I understand not wanting to break the law. However, would you never lazy vault a rail that was in your way just because the law said so?


Also, the question was given about how I would feel if someone tagged my house. It has happened, I smiled and painted a new piece I had been working on right next to it.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 04:41:18 PM by EpicMovement »

Offline Ethan Nicholson

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2010, 04:49:19 PM »
I have to ask. If parkour was illegal, would you stop doing it? Maybe you wouldn't go to your favorite spot and train for hours on end in front of cops, maybe you would. Because... as stated, that would be illegal, and I understand not wanting to break the law. However, would you never lazy vault a rail that was in your way just because the law said so?

This is a very good counter point. I'm going to have to say, I would definitely keep on training, regardless of whether it was legal or not.

Offline EpicMovement

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2010, 04:57:13 PM »
This is a very good counter point. I'm going to have to say, I would definitely keep on training, regardless of whether it was legal or not.

As would I. Before people start pulling out, "Parkour is legal, graffiti is not." People have been writing on walls just as long as people have been moving. Thats why I posted that quote about graffiti not making money, because I find it to be very true.

Offline mickeynotmouse

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2010, 09:05:55 AM »
"Graffiti is one of the few tools you have if you have almost nothing.
And even if you don't come up with a picture to cure world poverty you can
make someone smile while they're having a piss." -Banksy

"the people who run our cities dont understand graffiti because they think nothing has the right to exist unless it makes a profit...
the people who truly deface our neighborhoods are the companies that scrawl giant slogans across buildings and buses trying to make us feel inadequate unless we buy their stuff....
any advertisement in public space that gives you no choice whether you see it or not is yours, it belongs to you ,, its yours to take, rearrange and re use.Asking for permission is like asking to keep a rock someone just threw at your head...." -Banksy

"You owe the companies nothing. You especially don't owe them any courtesy. They have re-arranged the world to put themselves in front of you. They never asked for your permission, don't even start asking for theirs."  -Banksy




This "Banksy" character is quite paranoid and needs to grow up.


We don't live in a terrible, ill society filled with "evil" companies who  "Re-arrange the world to put themselves in front of you" and make us "feel inadequate unless we buy their stuff"


Does this really seem "evil" or make you "feel inadequate"?




lol, if it does, then you're VERY sensitive.

Besides, those "evil companies" feed thousands of families by creating jobs for them that usually pay very well, and those "giant slogans across buildings and buses trying to make us feel inadequate" are the way they GET that money. Not to mention the product or service that they offer.

So you see, those ads and slogans have a necessary and actually good and productive impact on society.

Doodling on top of them, does not.

Offline Sparklefish

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2010, 09:39:21 AM »
This thread is becoming overtly political.  The whole discussion seems like one of those things where people's opinions won't be swayed at all, by any evidence.  I'm sure there are some neutral people out there... but I'm not sure continuing to argue is going to reach them.

So you see, those ads and slogans have a necessary and actually good and productive impact on society.

Doodling on top of them, does not.

I and many others would say you have this backwards.  It's not so simple as you make it seem.  You're reducing large socio-political problems to single-sentence answers.  I think most people would agree that not all companies are evil and that not all are companies good, and that the answers to questions like the impact of advertising on society are nuanced.

"This 'Banksy' character" has had art displayed in galleries around the world, books of his/her/their work published and influenced millions.  Without taking credit for it.  No one knows who Banksy is, or if there even is a Banksy.  There could be a collective of Banksies.  For Banksy it isn't about glory or money, or whatever, it's about getting out a message.  His/her/their message is political, so obviously not everyone agrees.

Offline S Leger

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2010, 09:54:57 AM »
Great post Epicmovement.  Never thought of it that way.

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Offline klaymen

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2011, 08:19:33 AM »



This "Banksy" character is quite paranoid and needs to grow up.


We don't live in a terrible, ill society filled with "evil" companies who  "Re-arrange the world to put themselves in front of you" and make us "feel inadequate unless we buy their stuff"

We do. This is not to say that all companies are evil, or even that the idea of a corporation is wrong. Just that they are way under regulated and have far too much power. The billboard you posted is not really and example of what someone like Banksy is against. Also, making us "feel inadequate unless we buy their stuff" is the main idea behind marketing. That's how we end up buying useless stuff like bottled water.

Offline mickeynotmouse

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2011, 09:21:34 AM »
We do. This is not to say that all companies are evil, or even that the idea of a corporation is wrong. Just that they are way under regulated and have far too much power. The billboard you posted is not really and example of what someone like Banksy is against. Also, making us "feel inadequate unless we buy their stuff" is the main idea behind marketing. That's how we end up buying useless stuff like bottled water.


I think banksy just needs to HTFU

A bottled water company sells plastic bottles and says it sells water. Is that a lie? Yes. They sell a piece of plastic and a logo and they throw in the water. However, is it wrong? Of course not!
People spend MONEY on the bottles. It doesn't matter if they're getting their money's worth or not, it was THEIR DECISION to buy it. Nobody held a gun to their heads.

Now, people spending money on anything legit is always good. It makes money leave the hands of one person and go into the hands of another person. And that second person will not, of course, hold on to that money: They will spend it on something else, and so on and so on. If you work (And probably, for one of those evil companies), then the money will come back to you, so you can keep spending it on water bottles.  It's a cycle, and it's a cycle that works and is not evil at all. In fact, it's beneficial.

And if those taggers were to adapt to it rather than rebelling against it like teenagers who never grew up, maybe they could afford their own property and be able to doodle on their own walls.

In the end, I paid for my billboard or my wall: That wall is mine and only I can modify it. She paid for her billboard or wall: It is hers and only she can modify it.  He paid for his.... You get it.

And also, nobody makes you buy anything, it's your own choice. And if banksy (I know it's a group of people now :P) feels bad for seeing a commercial on TV (A tv that, btw was made possible by the very system he is against), then he needs to HTFU.

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Offline klaymen

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2011, 10:31:43 AM »

A bottled water company sells plastic bottles and says it sells water. Is that a lie? Yes. They sell a piece of plastic and a logo and they throw in the water. However, is it wrong? Of course not!
People spend MONEY on the bottles. It doesn't matter if they're getting their money's worth or not, it was THEIR DECISION to buy it. Nobody held a gun to their heads.


It is not "wrong" on an individual level. They are not doing anything illegal, and yes, it is up to the individual to make the choice. Is it wrong on a larger level though? Is it bad for humanity as a whole and the future of our planet?
Of course!
But how do you regulate that?

I don't really care if people waste their money. The only thing I truly care about is the survival and growth of our species, but with that comes a lot of other hazards to worry about that most people just don't really care about.

Now, people spending money on anything legit is always good. It makes money leave the hands of one person and go into the hands of another person. And that second person will not, of course, hold on to that money: They will spend it on something else, and so on and so on. If you work (And probably, for one of those evil companies), then the money will come back to you, so you can keep spending it on water bottles.  It's a cycle, and it's a cycle that works and is not evil at all. In fact, it's beneficial.

Again, not all companies are evil. I understand the sarcastic dismissal of all this "hippy bullshit" as I used to feel the exact same way. I understand how the exchange of currency and the economy in general works. The problem is when companies start doing things like manipulating the political system for profit. If you think we are really living in free market capitalism, you have been duped. I'm not sure when exactly my view of American economics changed, but I know this article was a big eye opener (in case you are actually interested).

And if those taggers were to adapt to it rather than rebelling against it like teenagers who never grew up, maybe they could afford their own property and be able to doodle on their own walls.

In the end, I paid for my billboard or my wall: That wall is mine and only I can modify it. She paid for her billboard or wall: It is hers and only she can modify it.  He paid for his.... You get it.

I think we both definitely agree on random tags. I don't care who these people are and no one else does either. To me, it's like a dog pissing on a tree.

I think where we disagree is the idea that graffiti can be used constructively. An example would be something like propaganda in Nazi Germany. Would it be wrong for someone to graffiti over a Nazi billboard in order to expose atrocities commited by the German military? If so, why? They paid for the billboard fair and square.

I understand that this is an extreme example, but hopefully you can see that the lines are not cut and dry. There is at the very least, some grey area. There are also a lot more forms of corruption in the world than just the blatant gassing of millions of people.

And also, nobody makes you buy anything, it's your own choice. And if banksy (I know it's a group of people now :P) feels bad for seeing a commercial on TV (A tv that, btw was made possible by the very system he is against), then he needs to HTFU.

One thing I have always respected about Banksy is that he doesn't make things for profit. I think the irony you are trying to point out would better be suited to the capitalistic sale of Che Guevara t-shirts.

Offline Ryan Nicolai

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2011, 11:00:07 AM »
Ugh... This thread makes my head hurt on both sides of the spectrum...

What is the intent of the law? I was in Germany a few years back, riding the train to Munich. On the way we passed a building with a giant, amazing, detailed... Penis. Two things came to my mind; That's a penis... And, that is an incredible work. It blew my mind with how much time the artist(s) had to spend creating it. I only wish I had a picture of it. The problem is, most people, myself included, don't want to have penises scrawled all over our cities.

The point of that little story is this; While some graffiti is art and a beautiful expression, some of it is not acceptable... No matter how funny I thought it was. It basically comes down to the 80/20 rule. Which means that most people won't cause a problem, but the minority will screw it up for everyone.

At the end of the day though, it's illegal without permission. So knock it off.


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Offline mickeynotmouse

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2011, 11:31:41 AM »
It is not "wrong" on an individual level. They are not doing anything illegal, and yes, it is up to the individual to make the choice. Is it wrong on a larger level though? Is it bad for humanity as a whole and the future of our planet?
Of course!
But how do you regulate that?

I don't really care if people waste their money. The only thing I truly care about is the survival and growth of our species, but with that comes a lot of other hazards to worry about that most people just don't really care about.


Future of our planet? Survival and growth of our species??  What are we talking about here? what exactly and why is selling water bottles bad for humanity as a whole?
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean there.

I think where we disagree is the idea that graffiti can be used constructively. An example would be something like propaganda in Nazi Germany. Would it be wrong for someone to graffiti over a Nazi billboard in order to expose atrocities commited by the German military? If so, why? They paid for the billboard fair and square.

I understand that this is an extreme example, but hopefully you can see that the lines are not cut and dry. There is at the very least, some grey area. There are also a lot more forms of corruption in the world than just the blatant gassing of millions of people.

Seriously? If an organization is wrong-doing in any way, there are a lot of better and more effective, LEGAL ways to deal with it. Besides, it's not like a big doodle on a billboard is going to do anything. And now that I think of it, whenever I see graffiti (And I mean the "good" kind, not the scribbles), it's never on a billboard. It's always on the wall of a house, of a factory, of a small store, under a bridge... Stuff like that.

The problem is when companies start doing things like manipulating the political system for profit. If you think we are really living in free market capitalism, you have been duped. I'm not sure when exactly my view of American economics changed, but I know this article was a big eye opener (in case you are actually interested).

I think companies like pepsi and coke are also a bit of an extreme example. However, I don't think that it is in any way unhealthy what they do. Why not? Because coke and pepsi are made up of a LOT of people. And all those people have families, and all those people have needs. So: All those people need to get paid. SO: The less it costs to make the product, the more money they make, the better.
And as for the comparing with jones soda with how it's healthier and has more variety.... I don't drink soda, so it really doesn't matter to me. But hey, once again, people choose what to buy.



I understand that this is an extreme example, but hopefully you can see that the lines are not cut and dry. There is at the very least, some grey area. There are also a lot more forms of corruption in the world than just the blatant gassing of millions of people.

If there is a gray area, I've never heard of any cases.






Offline klaymen

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2011, 11:58:53 AM »
Future of our planet? Survival and growth of our species??  What are we talking about here? what exactly and why is selling water bottles bad for humanity as a whole?
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean there.

Now in video form!

Seriously? If an organization is wrong-doing in any way, there are a lot of better and more effective, LEGAL ways to deal with it. Besides, it's not like a big doodle on a billboard is going to do anything. And now that I think of it, whenever I see graffiti (And I mean the "good" kind, not the scribbles), it's never on a billboard. It's always on the wall of a house, of a factory, of a small store, under a bridge... Stuff like that.

Doing things within the confines of the legal system doesn't exactly work when the thing you are fighting controls the legal system. If something written on a billboard had no effect, why would someone pay for it in the first place?

I think companies like pepsi and coke are also a bit of an extreme example. However, I don't think that it is in any way unhealthy what they do. Why not? Because coke and pepsi are made up of a LOT of people. And all those people have families, and all those people have needs. So: All those people need to get paid. SO: The less it costs to make the product, the more money they make, the better.
And as for the comparing with jones soda with how it's healthier and has more variety.... I don't drink soda, so it really doesn't matter to me. But hey, once again, people choose what to buy.

Please don't respond to an article that you didn't read, or at most skimmed through the first couple of paragraphs. Just say you didn't feel like reading it.

If there is a gray area, I've never heard of any cases.

*facepalm*
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 12:19:33 PM by klaymen »

Offline mickeynotmouse

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Re: Graffiti
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2011, 12:03:58 PM »
Ugh... This thread makes my head hurt on both sides of the spectrum...

What is the intent of the law? I was in Germany a few years back, riding the train to Munich. On the way we passed a building with a giant, amazing, detailed... Penis. Two things came to my mind; That's a penis... And, that is an incredible work. It blew my mind with how much time the artist(s) had to spend creating it. I only wish I had a picture of it. The problem is, most people, myself included, don't want to have penises scrawled all over our cities.

The point of that little story is this; While some graffiti is art and a beautiful expression, some of it is not acceptable... No matter how funny I thought it was. It basically comes down to the 80/20 rule. Which means that most people won't cause a problem, but the minority will screw it up for everyone.

At the end of the day though, it's illegal without permission. So knock it off.

This is very true, sir.

So knock it off!