Author Topic: Practicallity of flips and all that crap  (Read 15809 times)

Offline Andrew Hull

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2010, 07:12:38 AM »
So youre simultaneously  lying and equivocating? And you wonder why new practitioners are confused on the subject?
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Offline Tex__

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2010, 07:15:37 AM »
But surely you don't consider this current debate to be "fighting"? I think it's an engaging way of getting us all to think a lot more deeply about the foundations of our practise. Provided that things don't descend into ad hominem attacks, we can all learn something very valuable- particularly newer people- from the discourse into the fundamental philosophies of what we do. I don't feel as though I'm fighting against anybody, and I hope you don't see it that way either. I'm just throwing out ideas. It may seem repetitive to you, but newer practitioners will benefit from seeing these discussions early in their training. It's stimulating.

then can we make a new thread about it instead of hijacking this one? because the original statement of its all movement was to prevent the thread from getting derailed.

So youre simultaneously  lying and equivocating? And you wonder why new practitioners are confused on the subject?
there is no reason to be a dick.
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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2010, 07:18:32 AM »
Again we all understand the difference between parkour and free-running, and some people train for both. The "its all movement" thing is not because we think its all movement, its because we are sick of fighting over it.

If you are sick of fighting over it, did you care in the first place? Are you just giving up?

Offline Andrew Hull

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2010, 07:21:37 AM »

 there is no reason to be a dick.
There's no reason to put your comfort and peeves before the needs of the community or the cause of truth.
Rely on yourself. Rely on your body. Rely on your training, instincts, and heart. Everything else is a crutch.

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Offline Kendy

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2010, 07:29:42 AM »
If you are sick of fighting over it, did you care in the first place? Are you just giving up?

I wasn't gonna say anything serious in this thread cause I don't like these threads either, but that was uncalled for.
Just becuase Tex doesnt want people fighting over the definitions doesnt mean he's given up.  However, historically speaking, appeasement doesnt work out all that well.  In face, Hitler rose to power with the aid of American and European appeasement.  Hitler and Nazi Germany were kicking and screaming about the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles; eventually, the other countries allowed him to break the "unjust" terms of the treaty.

My point here is - while Tex's intentions are good and true, yes Evan, appeasement may not be the best way to handle this problem.  But don't say he's given up; that's just slander.
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Offline Tex__

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2010, 07:29:57 AM »
If you are sick of fighting over it, did you care in the first place? Are you just giving up?

Evan go train, stop trying to pick fights. of course i care, but this is a Pk and freerunning forum. If this was anywhere else i would be right next to Hull arguing the definition, but here it has been done so many times before that at this point its redundant and counter-productive. Yes there are different philosophies to parkour and freerunning. And to most of us it has become a major part of our lives. but we are a community, and one that can accomplish great things, if we work together. But we can't work together if we are arguing over the definition instead of answering a simple question. How do you think it looks to the new people that some asked if if a flip could be practical and its been derailed how many times?

There's no reason to put your comfort and peeves before the needs of the community or the cause of truth.
you seriously need to chill, your no messiah. this argument has been had many times. and at this point your not debating you singling people out for trying to prevent a thread derail. if you want this argument then fine, go make a thread, ill probably be on your side if its the threads topic.
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Offline Luke MC

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2010, 07:41:03 AM »
then can we make a new thread about it instead of hijacking this one?

I feel that the discussion has been relevant to the original topic. People have different ideas of what "practicality" means in parkour, as we don't all agree that "A-B efficiency" is the only metric by which to measure the practicality of incorporating flips into our training. As such, the philosophies of practise are fundamentally addressed and challenged in order to properly explore the question. Still, I think that at this point it has turned a little personal between some members. I have no interest in that so I'd be happy for a new thread to start.

Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2010, 07:46:38 AM »
Existentialism - (philosophy) a 20th-century philosophical movement chiefly in Europe; assumes that people are entirely free and thus responsible for what they make of themselves.

Subjectivism - The doctrine that reality is created or shaped by the mind; The doctrine that knowledge is based in feelings or intuition; The doctrine that values and moral principles come from attitudes, convention, whim, or preference

---

Why is it all just movement?  Because MY parkour isn't YOUR parkour.  We're different people, and thus it varies slightly.  Not a single one of us do or think the exact same thing while performing parkour.  It could be incredibly similar, but not quite the same.  Also, different people have different styles of doing thing.  There is no ultimate move just as there is no ultimate martial art; each person is the deciding factor.

"Parkour is the physical discipline of training to overcome any obstacle within one's path by adapting one's movements to the environment." - APK

Freerunning is considered parkour in this definition...  But there is little objectivism to be found.


Not one of you can win this argument due to subjectivism and existentialism, try picking up a philosophy textbook next time, and then go train.

Offline Andrew Hull

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #88 on: August 31, 2010, 07:54:40 AM »
Again, does my football or YOUR football change what football is?

And I do apologize for the thread-jack.
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Offline max eisenberg

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #89 on: August 31, 2010, 08:00:26 AM »
if anyone here would do a flip in a true emergency you are seriously misunderstanding the core concept of whatever motion art you practice.

if you got into a fight would you try and do a backflip? then why would you bother doing a flip running from someone?

wasting energy doesnt get you anywhere. go ahead and argue these points, your only going to look stupid.

now practice what you want to practice because it can only make you a more well rounded practitioner unless you only stick to one or two things. in which case you are again seriously misunderstanding the core concepts of your art.

give this up now please.


my mind is constantly moving, one day my body will be strong enough to keep up.

Offline Kendy

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2010, 08:02:52 AM »
Again, does my football or YOUR football change what football is?

And I do apologize for the thread-jack.

my football is purple - just saying
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Offline Tex__

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #91 on: August 31, 2010, 08:03:26 AM »
if anyone here would do a flip in a true emergency you are seriously misunderstanding the core concept of whatever motion art you practice.

if you got into a fight would you try and do a backflip? then why would you bother doing a flip running from someone?

wasting energy doesnt get you anywhere. go ahead and argue these points, your only going to look stupid.

now practice what you want to practice because it can only make you a more well rounded practitioner unless you only stick to one or two things. in which case you are again seriously misunderstanding the core concepts of your art.

give this up now please.

there this answers OP's question, a flip is not practical, end of discussion. if you want to argue philosophies start a new thread.
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Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #92 on: August 31, 2010, 08:05:13 AM »
Again, does my football or YOUR football change what football is?

And I do apologize for the thread-jack.

And what exactly is football?

Offline hfksla

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #93 on: August 31, 2010, 08:16:25 AM »
Football is tough and intense sport
Football (soccer) is a sport where the players pretend to be injured to get the other team yellow cards
atleast thats what happened in the world cup...
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JCalebM

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #94 on: August 31, 2010, 08:17:04 AM »
Existentialism - (philosophy) a 20th-century philosophical movement chiefly in Europe; assumes that people are entirely free and thus responsible for what they make of themselves.

Subjectivism - The doctrine that reality is created or shaped by the mind; The doctrine that knowledge is based in feelings or intuition; The doctrine that values and moral principles come from attitudes, convention, whim, or preference

---

Why is it all just movement?  Because MY parkour isn't YOUR parkour.  We're different people, and thus it varies slightly.  Not a single one of us do or think the exact same thing while performing parkour.  It could be incredibly similar, but not quite the same.  Also, different people have different styles of doing thing.  There is no ultimate move just as there is no ultimate martial art; each person is the deciding factor.

"Parkour is the physical discipline of training to overcome any obstacle within one's path by adapting one's movements to the environment." - APK

Freerunning is considered parkour in this definition...  But there is little objectivism to be found.


Not one of you can win this argument due to subjectivism and existentialism, try picking up a philosophy textbook next time, and then go train.

I dont think this quite works against Drews point, because he is arguing, the same as David Belle, that there is only one parkour, not many.

But, truly we shouldnt look at flips as whether or not we do parkour. Parkour is where your training is rooted. I do parkour, but I had been tumbling long before i ever did parkour, and because of that, doing flips is a part of who i am. So if i am doing parkour, and do a flip, does that mean that i no longer am doing parkour? No, it means that flips are something that i enjoy and occasionally i might do them while at the same time that im doing parkour.

Now what i do have a problem with is when i see people ONLY doing flips and stunts and calling it parkour, because that is not parkour. If parkour is not where your training is rooted, then you are just doing stunts. If all you do is go outside and flip off of things, you are just doing stunts. Not parkour or freerunning or any one of the alternate words for parkour.

Let me also put it in terms of football and football. If i play soccer (football) does that mean that i cant also play football? No. They are 2 very different things, but i can do both. I can play soccer (football) and sometimes also play football. Now, if go out and just start kicking a ball and throwing a ball, or just run around tackling people, am still playing football or football....No.

Let me also put it in terms of martial arts and more relevant ma tricking. I am a martial artist. I practice traditional martial arts, but i also do martial arts tricking. Does that make me no longer a traditional martial artist? No, because my training is rooted in traditional martial arts, but i can also do martial arts tricking. Also i do multiple styles of martial arts. Lets take kung fu, and tae kwan do. If i do tae kwan do, am i no longer doing kung fu..No, they are 2 different styles and i can do both. But if i just walk around punching people, am i doing either of them... No, because then my training is not rooted in traditional martial arts, i am just running around punching people. That is not martial arts, the same as just doing stunts is not parkour.

I realize this post might make no sense to some people, so if it does, good, and if not, oh well.

Offline Andrew Hull

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #95 on: August 31, 2010, 08:34:08 AM »
I would also like to apologize for Calebs late post as he is,  in actuality,  a baby silverback gorilla that we have shaved and taught to use a computer. As such, typing that response likely took quite some time. Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 09:02:52 AM by Andrew Hull »
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Offline Artisticflow87

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2010, 09:07:26 AM »
Quote from: Caleb
But, truly we shouldnt look at flips as whether or not we do parkour. Parkour is where your training is rooted. I do parkour, but I had been tumbling long before i ever did parkour, and because of that, doing flips is a part of who i am. So if i am doing parkour, and do a flip, does that mean that i no longer am doing parkour? No, it means that flips are something that i enjoy and occasionally i might do them while at the same time that im doing parkour.

Now what i do have a problem with is when i see people ONLY doing flips and stunts and calling it parkour, because that is not parkour. If parkour is not where your training is rooted, then you are just doing stunts. If all you do is go outside and flip off of things, you are just doing stunts. Not parkour or freerunning or any one of the alternate words for parkour.

Let me also put it in terms of football and football. If i play soccer (football) does that mean that i cant also play football? No. They are 2 very different things, but i can do both. I can play soccer (football) and sometimes also play football. Now, if go out and just start kicking a ball and throwing a ball, or just run around tackling people, am still playing football or football....No.

This^

Again we all understand the difference between parkour and free-running, and some people train for both. The "its all movement" thing is not because we think its all movement, its because we are sick of fighting over it.

And this^
 
How I see the whole 'its all movement' argument, its basically a blunt way of putting " Hey im doing whatever I feel suits me, im not confined to one discipline." 

I truly respect parkour for what it is, and I believe it deserves to be properly "labeled" and properly presented to the world, and that WE do have a responsibility to teach those what it really is, but arguing amongst ourselves over the semantics all the time is probably hurting parkour as much as those improperly labeling, by dividing ourselfs and getting elitist attitudes believing one discipline is better than the other.
Next thing you know it will be like you parkour guys are team A and you free runner guys are team B and the two will develop mixed feelings towards each other, and thats not what its about. I would hate to train with pure parkour guys that judged me because I like to throw a flip here and there.. You can have your preferred style, but real mastery involves learning a little bit of EVERYTHING, because it expands overall growth...

And Im not trying to step on anyones toes because everyone makes good points, but personally I think highly skilled free runners who've also up took in gymnastics, gain more skill and are more in tune with their body mechanics than someone who ONLY practiced strict parkour...
And just because you ONLY train parkour does not mean that in a real life parkour needed situation that youd be more efficient than the flip happy free runner.. That will simply depend on the person.

For example, I know some track runners who probably could do "parkour" better than half the traceurs Ive ever trained with, just for sheer speed, endurance and overall athletic ability...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 09:19:58 AM by Artisticflow87 »

Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2010, 09:14:48 AM »
I dont think this quite works against Drews point, because he is arguing, the same as David Belle, that there is only one parkour, not many.

But, truly we shouldnt look at flips as whether or not we do parkour. Parkour is where your training is rooted. I do parkour, but I had been tumbling long before i ever did parkour, and because of that, doing flips is a part of who i am. So if i am doing parkour, and do a flip, does that mean that i no longer am doing parkour? No, it means that flips are something that i enjoy and occasionally i might do them while at the same time that im doing parkour.

Now what i do have a problem with is when i see people ONLY doing flips and stunts and calling it parkour, because that is not parkour. If parkour is not where your training is rooted, then you are just doing stunts. If all you do is go outside and flip off of things, you are just doing stunts. Not parkour or freerunning or any one of the alternate words for parkour.

Let me also put it in terms of football and football. If i play soccer (football) does that mean that i cant also play football? No. They are 2 very different things, but i can do both. I can play soccer (football) and sometimes also play football. Now, if go out and just start kicking a ball and throwing a ball, or just run around tackling people, am still playing football or football....No.

Let me also put it in terms of martial arts and more relevant ma tricking. I am a martial artist. I practice traditional martial arts, but i also do martial arts tricking. Does that make me no longer a traditional martial artist? No, because my training is rooted in traditional martial arts, but i can also do martial arts tricking. Also i do multiple styles of martial arts. Lets take kung fu, and tae kwan do. If i do tae kwan do, am i no longer doing kung fu..No, they are 2 different styles and i can do both. But if i just walk around punching people, am i doing either of them... No, because then my training is not rooted in traditional martial arts, i am just running around punching people. That is not martial arts, the same as just doing stunts is not parkour.

I realize this post might make no sense to some people, so if it does, good, and if not, oh well.

It's all subjective.

Offline Andrew Hull

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2010, 09:18:25 AM »
Its really not. Just saying that doesn't make it so.  Don't get me started on the reality distortion field.
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Offline Luke MC

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2010, 09:25:47 AM »
by dividing ourselfs and getting elitist attitudes believing one discipline is better than the other.

I'd also hate to see this. On the rare occasions that I train with other people, they tend not to share my philosophies or methods but this doesn't create hostility. I don't see why the point about this "divide" is getting brought up though. Nobody here is attacking the non-traceurs, unless you count "it seems that what you train isn't strictly parkour" as some kind of insult.

Quote
And Im not trying to step on anyones toes because everyone makes good points, but personally I think highly skilled free runners who've also up took in gymnastics, gain more skill and are more in tune with their body mechanics than someone who ONLY practiced strict parkour...

I don't see why this would necessarily be true, but it's an interesting point nonetheless. I'm not going to debate it here though. Nice post.