Author Topic: Practicallity of flips and all that crap  (Read 15027 times)

Offline Chris Ell

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2010, 07:09:49 PM »
The times when I've actually applied parkour in my life, I've never thought "You know what would be useful here? A flip." Mind you, I wasn't being chased or anything. But if I was, I sure as hell would NEVER attempt to flip while running. Flips are dangerous and disorienting in a situation where you need perfect concentration. Even if I knew the area extremely well and trained there often, I still wouldn't do it. Besides, if there were ever a situation like MThomasfreerun described, a simple pop vault or clean kong vault would suffice.

 Heres a small example of why flips are just a bad idea when you're running aboot (Yes this really happened): My friend Tom and I were getting ready to train in down town Tampa and were walking towards the spot where everyone was. I saw a short cut through some parking garages we could take and so we ran off towards them. I pop vaulted the first wall and was met with an identical second wall about 20 feet across. Now, I easily could've flipped over this wall without breaking my momentum hardly at all, but instead did a pop vault to turn vault. That's when I saw the 20+ foot drop staring me in the face. Then, my friend comes over the wall and has the same reaction as me. We had both forgotten about the massive drop directly over that wall even though we've trained there plenty of times before. If we had flipped, we may have died, but we certainly would've broken something (or many somethings). Point being this: flips will never ever ever ever be practical in a "real" situation. Ever.

Also, here is footage of the day we went training if anyone's interested.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 07:16:38 PM by Chris Ell »
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Offline max eisenberg

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #61 on: August 29, 2010, 07:11:13 PM »


my mind is constantly moving, one day my body will be strong enough to keep up.

Offline Tex__

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2010, 07:12:32 PM »
The times when I've actually applied parkour in my life, I've never thought "You know what would be useful here? A flip." Mind you, I wasn't being chased or anything. But if I was, I sure as hell would NEVER attempt to flip while running. Flips are dangerous and disorienting in a situation where you need perfect concentration. Even if I knew the area extremely well and trained there often, I still wouldn't do it. Besides, if there were ever a situation like MThomasfreerun described, a simple pop vault or clean kong vault would suffice.

 Heres a small example of why flips are just a bad idea when you're running aboot (Yes this really happened): My friend Tom and I were getting ready to train in down town Tampa and were walking towards the spot where everyone was. I saw a short cut through some parking garages we could take and so we ran off towards them. I pop vaulted the first wall and was met with an identical second wall about 20 feet across. Now, I easily could've flipped over this wall without breaking my momentum hardly at all, but instead did a pop vault to turn vault. That's when I saw the 20+ foot drop staring me in the face. Then, my friend comes over the wall and has the same reaction as me. We had both forgotten about the massive drop directly over that wall even though we've trained there plenty of times before. If we had flipped, we may have died, but we certainly would've broken something (or many somethings). Point being this: flips will never ever ever ever be practical in a "real" situation. Ever.
wow..... that would scare the shit out of me. lol


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Offline MThomasfreerun

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2010, 07:34:11 PM »
The times when I've actually applied parkour in my life, I've never thought "You know what would be useful here? A flip." Mind you, I wasn't being chased or anything. But if I was, I sure as hell would NEVER attempt to flip while running. Flips are dangerous and disorienting in a situation where you need perfect concentration. Even if I knew the area extremely well and trained there often, I still wouldn't do it. Besides, if there were ever a situation like MThomasfreerun described, a simple pop vault or clean kong vault would suffice.

 

Also, here is footage of the day we went training if anyone's interested.

To each their own. I'm guessing if I put you against Ryan Doyle (who actually said he'd prefer a front flip to a full on jump when he was on fight science) and he performs a front and you perform a pop vault, most likely Doyle's gonna take you on efficiency (no offense -I don't actually know your skill level so I'm taking a guess based on a slightly better-than-average freerunner - he'd sure bake my ass).  The point is, some people are more comfortable performing a flip than certain other movements. That's their prerogative and I would never tell someone they are wrong for doing what they feel most comfortable with.


Quote
Heres a small example of why flips are just a bad idea when you're running aboot (Yes this really happened): My friend Tom and I were getting ready to train in down town Tampa and were walking towards the spot where everyone was. I saw a short cut through some parking garages we could take and so we ran off towards them. I pop vaulted the first wall and was met with an identical second wall about 20 feet across. Now, I easily could've flipped over this wall without breaking my momentum hardly at all, but instead did a pop vault to turn vault. That's when I saw the 20+ foot drop staring me in the face. Then, my friend comes over the wall and has the same reaction as me. We had both forgotten about the massive drop directly over that wall even though we've trained there plenty of times before. If we had flipped, we may have died, but we certainly would've broken something (or many somethings). Point being this: flips will never ever ever ever be practical in a "real" situation. Ever.

First, I'd suggest being careful about using definitive words like "never" - I only have to find one situation where it's not true and your statement is killed  ;)

Second, one of the cardinal rules of parkour is to "check your obstacles," is it not? So it's on you for deciding to vault a wall without knowing the landing on the other side (and you actually DID know - just forgot, right?). Don't hold the rest of us accountable because you failed to do that - my example presupposed knowledge of one's landing, but I guess I should have explicitly stated that.
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Offline Chris Ell

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2010, 07:53:54 PM »
To each their own. I'm guessing if I put you against Ryan Doyle (who actually said he'd prefer a front flip to a full on jump when he was on fight science) and he performs a front and you perform a pop vault, most likely Doyle's gonna take you on efficiency (no offense -I don't actually know your skill level so I'm taking a guess based on a slightly better-than-average freerunner - he'd sure bake my ass).  The point is, some people are more comfortable performing a flip than certain other movements. That's their prerogative and I would never tell someone they are wrong for doing what they feel most comfortable with.


First, I'd suggest being careful about using definitive words like "never" - I only have to find one situation where it's not true and your statement is killed  ;)

Second, one of the cardinal rules of parkour is to "check your obstacles," is it not? So it's on you for deciding to vault a wall without knowing the landing on the other side (and you actually DID know - just forgot, right?). Don't hold the rest of us accountable because you failed to do that - my example presupposed knowledge of one's landing, but I guess I should have explicitly stated that.

Oh, that's a completely different situation than I was thinking of. I was saying that if you were to just one day be chased, or to just run and react to whichever obstacle you may come across the best way you can on the spot (what my friend and I did that day) not necessarily knowing the surrounding area, I feel that a flip would be completely reckless and dangerous. Also, I've met Ryan Doyle, and while he's an incredibly nice and talented guy, some of the things he said made me doubt his credibility on the subjects of parkour and freerunning. But like you said, to each his own I guess.
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Offline Shyam Subramanian

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #65 on: August 30, 2010, 04:46:08 AM »
Well I'm sure looking firward to more of Luke MC's posts.  That was amazing.
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Offline hfksla

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2010, 05:15:22 AM »
Couldn't agree more with Luke and Max ;D
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Offline Alex Melusky

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2010, 11:25:48 AM »
Also, I've met Ryan Doyle, and while he's an incredibly nice and talented guy, some of the things he said made me doubt his credibility on the subjects of parkour and freerunning.

I would like to know what made you doubt him...
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Offline MThomasfreerun

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2010, 10:59:37 PM »
@Chris Ell: That's true, fair enough.

How about this: a teammate of mine brought up the excellent example of a chest high barbwire/razorwire fence with say a 8' drop on the other side. Are you planning to kong vault it? Dash vault perhaps? Certainly a dive roll is not a great idea...as I mentioned, I just have to find ONE example;-)

As for Doyle, well, actions speak louder than words. His movement is what I care about and he is extremely proficient at it, so I'm satisfied. But as we keep saying, to each their own, heh.

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Offline Andrew Hull

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2010, 02:45:27 AM »
First of all, I HATE this topic. And not for the reasons you might think. But I just wanted to mention I've seen Chris Ell train with Ryan Doyle and I'd take that bet. Doyle is what he is but his parkour is mediocre at best. Chris is also a complete beast.

I'm SICK of the "it's all movement" mindset. I'm sorry but definitions build our world. Futbol and Football sound similar and are both a bunch of guys on a grass field trying to get a ball across a line, but NO ONE would say they're the same game.

Parkour is about efficiency of travel, escape and pursuit, and 'etre fort pour etre utile'. The difference comes in the mindset and goal of training. And as far as 'parkour would be 99% running in a real life situation so how we train is pointless anyways, so might as well flip' Really? Setting aside the "it's broken, we might as well cut it off" thought process, whats the fastest way to end a chase? Put an impassible object between you and your pursuer. I'm much more comfortable with my ability to wallclimb higher or gap farther than outrun any given person over a distance.

That's not to say one can't play both games. Flipping has immense benefits physically and mentally that would benefit parkour. But so do weight lifting, swimming, defense, and nutrition, and it would be silly to call those Parkour.

The "it's all movement" mindset allows for the bastardization of an important system, ideal, and philosophy. This is what turned Karate into Bubba-Fu. Saying "it's all movement" allows for the misunderstandings that we have to deal with everyday ("are you guys doing parkour? do a flip!"). It encourages the roofjumpers, re-re-runners, and idiots to label their maniacal, dangerous stunts as Parkour. And it will lead to the death of parkour in the mainstream.

We love to talk about how much Parkour is a life style, a life system, or a philosophy. But then immediately spout the fashionable "it's all movement." The simple fact is if your Parkour training is "all movement" you're doing it wrong.

I'm sorry but suck it up and take your lumps. Stand up for parkour as what it is or lose it to the youtubers.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 02:48:31 AM by Andrew Hull »
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Offline hfksla

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2010, 04:29:11 AM »
Hmm...
as much as I hate to say it, Hull's gotta point.
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Offline Luke MC

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2010, 05:07:55 AM »
I'm SICK of the "it's all movement" mindset. I'm sorry but definitions build our world. Futbol and Football sound similar and are both a bunch of guys on a grass field trying to get a ball across a line, but NO ONE would say they're the same game.

Parkour is about efficiency of travel, escape and pursuit, and 'etre fort pour etre utile'. The difference comes in the mindset and goal of training. And as far as 'parkour would be 99% running in a real life situation so how we train is pointless anyways, so might as well flip' Really? Setting aside the "it's broken, we might as well cut it off" thought process, whats the fastest way to end a chase? Put an impassible object between you and your pursuer. I'm much more comfortable with my ability to wallclimb higher or gap farther than outrun any given person over a distance.

That's not to say one can't play both games. Flipping has immense benefits physically and mentally that would benefit parkour. But so do weight lifting, swimming, defense, and nutrition, and it would be silly to call those Parkour.

The "it's all movement" mindset allows for the bastardization of an important system, ideal, and philosophy. This is what turned Karate into Bubba-Fu. Saying "it's all movement" allows for the misunderstandings that we have to deal with everyday ("are you guys doing parkour? do a flip!"). It encourages the roofjumpers, re-re-runners, and idiots to label their maniacal, dangerous stunts as Parkour. And it will lead to the death of parkour in the mainstream.

We love to talk about how much Parkour is a life style, a life system, or a philosophy. But then immediately spout the fashionable "it's all movement." The simple fact is if your Parkour training is "all movement" you're doing it wrong.

I'm sorry but suck it up and take your lumps. Stand up for parkour as what it is or lose it to the youtubers.

I'm glad that you posted this. Not many people have the courage to stand up for parkour like this when they know that most people's response will be "what an uptight (and typical) fundamentalist". The point you're making here needs to be made clear though, and I think I may make myself a little unpopular for what I'm about to say.

Stéphane Vigroux once said (in the U$F 3 Documentary) that parkour is very particular. He did not say "eh, le parkour... it's what you make it, just move" because he trained with David Belle and he knew better than this. He knew that Belle's parkour was looking for something quite specific and was bound by philosophies and ideals that other art forms don't necessarily follow. Yet "parkour" as a word has somehow become a lifelong attachment for many people who, upon deeper inspection, aren't really completely interested in parkour so much as they're interested in free exploration of their capacities, facing challenges and putting themselves to the test. I recognised this in my own training back in 2008, and instead of going around calling myself a traceur still, I stopped associating myself with that word because I knew full well that I would only be diluting the message of an art that deserves more respect than that. Later, I refocused my training to align exactly with my understanding of parkour, and now that is what I practise.

Thing is, most people who I have encountered on my travels or on the internet are much like my 2008 self yet still clinging to the word "parkour". People who get their inspiration from Daniel Ilabaca and Ryan Doyle, making beautiful and elegant movement, surpassing their limits and setting great examples for future practitioners. But it isn't parkour. If you don't agree that you should be strong to be useful, it isn't parkour. If you think that "training for an emergency" is naive and unrealistic, it isn't parkour. If you are above all of this and simply want to enjoy the movements without the "politics", I'm sorry, it isn't parkour. And there's no shame in admitting that! I'd rather you did, because then when I look for reliable information or videos on parkour, I won't keep seeing things like 3Run's street stunt samplers.

Quote
And it will lead to the death of parkour in the mainstream

Here, I'm afraid I disagree completely. I believe the death of parkour has already been and passed, at least in the UK. True parkour as a practise is as good as gone. The "it's all movement" mindset is the mainstream now. Even the people we look up to the most are spreading a mixed message. For example, the ever-popular "Choose Not To Fall" video by Ilabaca demonstrates a total deconstruction of parkour's "etre et durer" motto. Danny says "less time full-on conditioning for the future and more time just enjoying the fact that you've got another day". This is a great outlook on life, no doubt, but it sends out a message that is contrary to "to be and to last", and can lead to many people lessening their physical conditioning in favour of enjoying their Ilabacaflips. It dilutes and obscures the message of parkour, like so many of Ilabaca's and Livewire's hybrid videos and cross-over philosophies.

Quote
Flipping has immense benefits physically and mentally that would benefit parkour. But so do weight lifting, swimming, defense, and nutrition, and it would be silly to call those Parkour.

And this is part of the point that I was trying to stress. Just because something can have benefits to parkour, does not mean you should incorporate it straight into your training without further analysis. Everything on that list (weight lifting, swimming, etc) is, in my opinion, more important to incorporate into your parkour lifestyle than flips as the carry-over is higher (from weights and nutrition) and the skills are more important in terms of the "etre utile" motto (swimming and defence). The reason people choose flips over these other important aspects of training is because flips are damn good fun. And this is fine. I'm ok with this. Just be honest with yourself when you try to justify calling it "helpful to parkour". If you really, truly, honestly wanted to pursue parkour, you'd have a very different outlook and your training would be much more broad and complete (refer back to my original post in this discussion).

I came here because I am interested in learning and spreading the messages of parkour. Not free running, not street stunts and not break dancing. It's just my preference. So when I talk about parkour, I am talking about something very specific. Not just "movement in general". I have no interest in telling people how they should train, that's up to the people. What I would like to see, however, is people being a little more thoughtful about the words they use to describe their methods. Parkour is what it is. If you're going to use the word, be sure you understand exactly what it is that you're saying.

I don't like making whiny posts, though I feel strongly about this.

*EDIT: Just to add, as I think I was unclear on the "death of parkour" point, I don't believe that parkour is actually dead, only that it has gone further underground than ever before, and that "it's all movement" is the new mainstream. I am aware that in the UK, we still have Parkour Generations and other such examples trying to spread the correct message and (from what I hear) doing a good job. This doesn't extend far out of London though for the most part. -sigh-
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 05:13:13 AM by Luke MC »

Offline Andrew Hull

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2010, 05:24:46 AM »
You hit it right on the head Luke. Just to clarify when I said 'death of parkour in the mainstream' I meant true parkour, as you and I see it. It very well may be that time has come and gone but I was raised a pastors kid and Im not one to count out resurrection. I think that the opinion of true parkour comes with time and life experience. There's a life cycle to the sociology of parkour. Typically we see something impressive on television, do tons of research, go out and try it, progress quickly, go big or go home, get hurt, start training over safely, get caught up in pushing the limits of your skill, and then eventually learn to love less. By learn to love less what I mean is dedicating yourself to efficiency and virtuosity. Learning to use as little energy as possible to achieve each objective, and learning to do the common uncommonly well.

There's a whole article in there but Im at work on my phone so I just wanted to say Im with you. And don't count out true parkour yet. There will always be life behind an idea if there are people willing to live for it.
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Offline MThomasfreerun

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2010, 05:26:08 AM »
First of all, I HATE this topic. And not for the reasons you might think. But I just wanted to mention I've seen Chris Ell train with Ryan Doyle and I'd take that bet. Doyle is what he is but his parkour is mediocre at best. Chris is also a complete beast.

I honestly have never met Chris Ell nor seen his stuff. I in no way was nor am attempting to devalue his abilities. If you want me to use a different athlete as an example, I can pick Oleg or Ilabaca, or a dozen others, but I have a feeling based on your comments that you have already decided that people with this style are inherently "mediocre" at parkour...

Quote
I'm SICK of the "it's all movement" mindset. I'm sorry but definitions build our world. Futbol and Football sound similar and are both a bunch of guys on a grass field trying to get a ball across a line, but NO ONE would say they're the same game.

Parkour is about efficiency of travel, escape and pursuit, and 'etre fort pour etre utile'. The difference comes in the mindset and goal of training. And as far as 'parkour would be 99% running in a real life situation so how we train is pointless anyways, so might as well flip' Really? Setting aside the "it's broken, we might as well cut it off" thought process, whats the fastest way to end a chase? Put an impassible object between you and your pursuer. I'm much more comfortable with my ability to wallclimb higher or gap farther than outrun any given person over a distance.

That's not to say one can't play both games. Flipping has immense benefits physically and mentally that would benefit parkour. But so do weight lifting, swimming, defense, and nutrition, and it would be silly to call those Parkour.

The "it's all movement" mindset allows for the bastardization of an important system, ideal, and philosophy. This is what turned Karate into Bubba-Fu. Saying "it's all movement" allows for the misunderstandings that we have to deal with everyday ("are you guys doing parkour? do a flip!"). It encourages the roofjumpers, re-re-runners, and idiots to label their maniacal, dangerous stunts as Parkour. And it will lead to the death of parkour in the mainstream.

We love to talk about how much Parkour is a life style, a life system, or a philosophy. But then immediately spout the fashionable "it's all movement." The simple fact is if your Parkour training is "all movement" you're doing it wrong.

I'm sorry but suck it up and take your lumps. Stand up for parkour as what it is or lose it to the youtubers.

I'm curious - where do you pull your definitions? This seems to be the biggest trouble area. It's obvious you've got a very specific and rigid idea of what you believe parkour actually entails. You hate the "it's all movement" view, yet that's the exact way the Yamakasi have described it:

"Parkour, l'art du deplacement, freerunning, the art of movement... they are all the same thing. They are all movement and they all came from the same place, the same nine guys originally. The only thing that differs is each individual's way of moving." Don't try to separate them or waste energy debating whether this is this or that is that - that leads only to separation within yourself. You must find out why YOU practise, that is all. After that you will find your way. Labels count for nothing. Just move."

http://www.parkourgenerations.com/articles.php?id_cat=4&idart=29

Maybe you disagree with this viewpoint, but then I ask again - where are you pulling your definition - your concept of parkour? It would seem that some pretty credible sources disagree with you...

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Offline Luke MC

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2010, 05:50:15 AM »
"What I’m interested in for parkour is the utilitarian thing of getting to the other end, whether as a task or a challenge, but in film they like a little entertainment, so I do that, too, but it’s not what I’m interested in." -David Belle

I tend to use David Belle as my source for core parkour knowledge. The Yamakasi are great guys and I've trained with them myself. They put my body to the test in ways that I've never experienced before or since. They are an inspiration to train with, but I think what they're trying to do here is put an end to what became a slightly hostile environment for practitioners of opposing views. The want to unify people in their general love for movement, and they are right in saying that parkour/free running/etc all came from the same place but to say that they are still the same is simply not true. Perhaps to them but not to the wider community who pick up the arts and choose to focus more specifically on certain aspects. I've read Sébastien Foucan's book (Freerunning: Find You Way) and I've read many transcripts of David Belle and I've listened to the Yamakasi voicing their opinions, and they don't match up precisely. Foucan's philosophy is different to David's which in turn is slightly different to that of the Yamakasi. What the Yamakasi are doing is commendable and will promote peace between practitioners of movement, but they did oversimplify when they said it's all the same.

For anybody who trains any of the named arts in a way that the Yamakasi do, indeed, the lines between them blur and can even vanish. They train hard, from fundamental skills and tough conditioning through to technique and then limitless expression. This is true of all the arts when approached from a Yamakasi-style training regime. Perhaps I am at fault for putting too much emphasis on the Natural Method in my philosophies, but I'm quite sure David's aim for parkour is to be utilitarian, whereas other arts, as spoken by their founders, are not (e.g seb's freerunning is about finding yourself).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 05:52:07 AM by Luke MC »

Offline Andrew Hull

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2010, 06:10:17 AM »
PRECISELY! The yamakasi are the MMA fighters of the movement world. In the time they've trained they have absorbed, developed, and integrated techniques from all different styles and intents. One could say they are the Jeet Kun Do of movement. I am more than happy to acknowledge all the styles as Movement Arts just as Martial Arts. But again, Tae Kwon Do is not Karate. And kyokushin karate is not shotokan karate and Chang moo kwon TKD is not muk duk kwon TKD. I appreciate where the yamakasi are coming from as a collection of masters, however Bruce Lee said "First you learn technique, then you master technique, THEN you abandon techniques" And im sure he'd very much caution anyone from skipping those first steps.

Also, I hate to mention this but, as the founders of one of the arts in question (LDDP) the yamakasi stand a lot to gain from positioning all arts as the same. They are unifying their practitioner base and as such, if they are no different, can claim the entire user base of parkour and freerunners as adherents to their own system. At they same time they are giving no one person or style reason not to support them or train with them as a client base.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 06:33:44 AM by Andrew Hull »
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Offline Tex__

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2010, 06:55:35 AM »
Andrew when we said in this thread its all movement we where not saying its all the same thing, we where attempting to avoid a fight over definitions that we have on here ALL THE TIME. we all understand there is a difference, but there is no reason to fight over that difference every Thursday.
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Offline Kendy

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2010, 06:59:20 AM »
Flipping is efficient
I flip becuase it's fun
Fun makes me happy
By the transitive property, flips make me happy
The transitive property is an effivient method
Flipping has efficiently made me happy
Therefore flipping is efficient

GO AHEAD, QUESTION MY PROOF!


Andrew when we said in this thread its all movement we where not saying its all the same thing, we where attempting to avoid a fight over definitions that we have on here ALL THE TIME. we all understand there is a difference, but there is no reason to fight over that difference every Thursday.
Today is actually Tuesday... just saying >.> <3
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Offline Tex__

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2010, 07:01:59 AM »
Again we all understand the difference between parkour and free-running, and some people train for both. The "its all movement" thing is not because we think its all movement, its because we are sick of fighting over it.
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Offline Luke MC

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Re: Practicallity of flips and all that crap
« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2010, 07:11:15 AM »
Again we all understand the difference between parkour and free-running, and some people train for both. The "its all movement" thing is not because we think its all movement, its because we are sick of fighting over it.

But surely you don't consider this current debate to be "fighting"? I think it's an engaging way of getting us all to think a lot more deeply about the foundations of our practise. Provided that things don't descend into ad hominem attacks, we can all learn something very valuable- particularly newer people- from the discourse into the fundamental philosophies of what we do. I don't feel as though I'm fighting against anybody, and I hope you don't see it that way either. I'm just throwing out ideas. It may seem repetitive to you, but newer practitioners will benefit from seeing these discussions early in their training. It's stimulating.