Author Topic: Roof jumping: Question!  (Read 11432 times)

Offline DevintheNinja

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2010, 04:00:15 AM »
I dunno but I got shunned hard on these forums by people when I said I trained on rooftops. I guess times have changed
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Offline MThomasfreerun

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2010, 05:23:22 AM »

PS: MThomas, be careful picking apart someone's post like you did. When people do that, it often seems to me that they are looking for ways to contest against a person, rather than an idea. I think readers prefer to see our polite, respectful opinions about roof training rather than sarcastic or smart-ass comebacks to someone else's specific points. I'm not saying you did this, so take it or leave it, but I think the discussion will progress more effectively if we respond to posts without concern of who posted it. :)


I hear what you're saying. I'll admit that sometimes my responses to certain people are more...pointed.  There are pretty much two topics that are repeatedly posted on here that rile the heck out of me - barefoot training and training on rooftops (with a minor annoyance about roll techniques). These topics tend to lead to the most "don't do that, period" type comments with no support behind them and I absolutely hate hearing people try to limit others' progress/movement.

But I understand what you mean and I'll try to respond in a less caustic manner.

EDIT: I'd like to add that, to date, I've yet to see a polite and respectful thread about rooftop training  :-\ It's usually 3 or so of the self-appointed "roof police" saying "don't ever train rooftops or you're out of the parkour club" and a couple of the rest of us getting crucified for saying it's ok...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 05:28:38 AM by MThomasfreerun »
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Offline Chris Seaton

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2010, 07:12:53 AM »
There's a reason that certain topics here get a very heated response, and rooftop training is one of those heated topics. 

Part of that reason is because there's been at least one death recorded in the American press for someone who ostensibly went up on a roof and attempted something like a gap.  There was a massive discussion about it on here that I won't care to repeat, because I think the dead deserve a little rest at this point. 

Another reason that rooftop training is strongly discouraged here is because of the health and social implications that it has--not just for the people who are involved in that training, but also for the rest of Parkour's practitioners.  Go through the forums using the almighty Search Function and you'll find that there's issues with not only physical injury, but also legal problems that are associated (i.e. trespassing charges) that come with rooftop training. 

American Parkour has a very unique position in the world of Parkour and Freerunning.  Google "Parkour" and American Parkour is the second search result that pops up.  This is a place that a lot of beginners--here I repeat the term again--BEGINNERS--come to start learning the fundamentals of the art.  Most of these beginners do not have the training, experience, physical conditioning, or ability at the onset of their Parkour journey to handle a rooftop gap.  Some of them (and this has been documented well on the forums as well) inevitably think that these insane gaps and drops are part and parcel of the art, because we continue to see comments like "Well why do I see Youtube videos of (x ridiculously advanced technique) saying it's Parkour?"

Those of us who call ourselves the "Roof Police" don't want that kind of a misconception being spread about the art we all love, so we do our best to discourage it.

One other thing that needs to be stressed is that American Parkour is more than just a collection of individuals on a forum who train the arts of Parkour and Freerunning.  There's very much an aspect of this place that involves individuals who I care about and respect--individuals who love this art so much that they've invested their time, money, and resources into making this place and the betterment of the motion arts their livelihoods.  All that it could potentially take is one million dollar plus wrongful death lawsuit from a family whose kid got the wrong idea about jumping from roof to roof to shut this place down and give us all a bad name. 

I will not let that happen if I can do anything in my power to stop it.

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Offline Fecteau

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2010, 07:27:32 AM »
My only "beef" with this thread currently is that there are some posts, and I'm not pointing fingers, that are encouraging newcomers to do huge drops and roof jumps when they aren't at the physical, or even mental level to do them yet.

Small, controlled steps make the travel easy. Taking huge lunges often causes you to fall down and get injured.
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Offline MThomasfreerun

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2010, 07:46:32 AM »
@Seaton:

For starters - wasn't taking a stab at you for being a rooftop policeman. I just don't like the way it's presented by most who claim the title.

Your comments on beginners and rooftops/drops are exactly in line with my already-posted comments: you MUST progress properly before you should do such activities. But instead of being presented that way, beginners are told "there is no reason ever ever to be on a rooftop." Then they see the most elite, world-renouned and respected runners doing those very movements. It's misleading and confusing, and as a beginner I'd be frustrated as well.

I don't think that combating such a misconception about parkour is best served by spreading another :-\

APK is definitely a leading resource and community tool for Parkour. As such, it has the unique position to aptly inform all practitioners, new and experienced, and allow the free flow of ideas. I just don't see a lot of that when threads like this one come up.

I've done a very quick search on lawsuits arising from wrongful death due to emulating video, tv, video games. I didn't come up with much (checking for wrongful death, personal injury, etc. + parkour, stunts, rooftops, and so on). I will check the legal database when I get to work on Monday, but it's incredibly difficult to sustain a lawsuit of the type your discussing because of the large amount of confounding variables. In order to sustain such a lawsuit you have to prove "cause" and doing so would be virtually impossible from merely reading a forum post.

All that being said, perhaps a more unbiased approach - or at least an explanation such as yours - would be better than snide "don't do it or your a stupid head" type comments - a good explanation will go much farther than a stilted one-liner IMHO.
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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2010, 08:11:44 AM »
I tell beginners to not get on/jump off roofs because they obviously need to condition and understand why/what parkour is first.

I keep telling them because by the time they are ready, they'll know why I kept telling them "No." They'll know enough to understand the concerns of the community. They'll know enough to understand why they do what they do, and what their goals are.

That's why I say no.

Offline Chris Seaton

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2010, 09:33:38 AM »
MThomas, you had me slightly nodding my head in agreement until you got to THIS:

I've done a very quick search on lawsuits arising from wrongful death due to emulating video, tv, video games. I didn't come up with much (checking for wrongful death, personal injury, etc. + parkour, stunts, rooftops, and so on). I will check the legal database when I get to work on Monday, but it's incredibly difficult to sustain a lawsuit of the type your discussing because of the large amount of confounding variables. In order to sustain such a lawsuit you have to prove "cause" and doing so would be virtually impossible from merely reading a forum post.

As I'm stating more and more here--this is an area that I would love to comment on, but it skirts very dangerously close to UPL for me to do that.  So I'm going to bite my tongue and move on.  I'm just going to say this--because this statement rubbed me the wrong way--I hope you didn't go here in an attempt to try and school someone who's graduated with a J.D., clerked for three different judges, worked as the personal assistant for one of the best trial lawyers in the state of Tennessee, and has given up a summer's worth of jams and time with friends to study for the Bar on basic tort law principles. 

I know very much what a wrongful death suit entails, and I know exactly what it would take to make one stick in a court.  I also know that the majority of lawsuits in this country are getting settled out of court, and I know that I don't want to see anyone associated with APK so much as having to pay attorney's fees to defend a BS claim.

Quote
All that being said, perhaps a more unbiased approach - or at least an explanation such as yours - would be better than snide "don't do it or your a stupid head" type comments - a good explanation will go much farther than a stilted one-liner IMHO.

I agree.  The problem as I see it, though, is that these kinds of threads--and the same arguments--have come up SO MANY TIMES that most of the "old guard" is fed up with feeding beginners who don't take the time to read all the stickies, use the search function, and THINK before they post the same stuff over and over again a rational argument.  Therefore, they resort to that "stilted one liner" you mentioned.  It sucks, but that's what happens.  I'm sorry that you've had that experience.   

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Offline DevintheNinja

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2010, 11:43:14 AM »
Lol I get everyones point but I was shunned to the point if I posted anything pretaining to being on a roof people wouldn't even speak to me lol
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Offline max eisenberg

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2010, 02:27:04 PM »
@Max:

For starters, yes the picture is one of me doing a flip over a roof gap. Which I successfully completed just as I had intended. (I'd like to go on record now and say that it was my avatar long before this topic, so it wasn't intended to be ironic).  I'm curious, you comment on my sloppy form (I'm sorry I wasn't trying for a 10.0 score at the Olympics) but do you even know what skill I was performing? From a mere picture it's not necessarily apparent but you are sure willing to offer criticism regardless, it seems. I'm also curious what your qualifications in acrobatics are - I cannot seem to find any videos or other indications of your expertise. With no ego, I sincerely ask that if you've got credentials you let me know and I will retract any of my misconceived comments.

Now, let's address your more material points:
 

There are plenty of good things on rooftops - new and different obstacles, different views and environments to adapt to, etc. Being on a roof is not inherently illegal. For example, being on the roof of my own  house is not illegal (just for the record - I'm a licensed attorney, but I think most people would come up with this counter to your argument even if they weren't). Sure, being on a roof can be dangerous, but a lot of pk skills can be dangerous if done improperly, or done in the wrong place, or hell even if you just get unlucky.  And who are YOU to say why people choose to do those jumps? You don't know those people. Don't try to fit their motivations into your idea of parkour.   And if your argument (which based on the whole of your comments here seems to be the case) is that doing a 15' flat ground jump is the same as doing a 15' roof gap...well...I think there are more basic concepts to discuss than the advisability of rooftop parkour.
 

 Wait, so now you say that it IS a useful method of training? Come on, let's at least be consistent.


THE worst idea? How about a triple gainer off a 3 story building into a pile of glass shards and razorblades? There are plenty of worse ideas - these comments are asinine.
 

Actually I think of Ilabaca, Armitage, and Cyril Rafaelli, but that's just me. We aren't all the cookie-cutter traceurs you seem to pigeon-hole us to be. Sure we all want to be that mentally and physically strong. Some of us are getting there. Others are on APK telling people not to try to get there.

Based on this comment, I'm guessing you've never even tried the roof gaps you are hating on so severely. If you had, you'd know that it's NEVER the same as "just pretending." If you're imagination is that good, I commend you. It's rare and most people aren't gonna be "blessed" with it. Additionally, should you ever be faced with clearing a roof gap and you've never done anything but flat ground pretending...well...let me know how well prepared you feel as you're about to leap.

Who ever said they couldn't train their mind on the ground? Most of the people who are doing roof gaps HAVE trained their minds on ground, which is what gives them the confidence and knowledge to be able to move to the roof.


Again you are ASSUMING that every traceur's ONLY motivation is based around the founders. That's just not the case. Maybe I AM training for my life. I'll sure be more prepared than someone who has never been even remotely in a roof gap situation. Maybe I'm training for the video. Who cares. As long as I train and progress properly, I have every right to do it if I choose.
 

Well in that case I better not train on the ground either. Where CAN I train?



The point here is, people have a right to make their own choices. We can offer guidance, but we cannot choose for others. Instead of just confusing people by giving them unsupported "rules" which don't universally apply (you've said at least TWICE in your own post that it's ok for the Yamakasi to do it but apparently no one else) how about you tell them the proper way to progress up to it, so that when they DO try they will be prepared.

I have trained hard and progressed properly, and when I approach the roof gap in my avatar, I have no fear when I jump across, front flip across, side flip, etc. I'm sorry that you believe only David Belle and the Yamakasi should ever be on rooftops. The VAST majority of traceurs, and virtually ALL of the elite ones disagree with you.  Stop trying to limit others just because you are limiting yourself.



your right dude, i shouldnt have poked fun at your avatar (it just looks like you untucked early and at an angle, i dont have credentials but i was a spring board diver for many years so i know a little about form). for that i am sorry, i just really feel we should not promote rooftops at all. i feel very strongly about it.

the vast majority of people would agree that you can train the same jumps you see on roof tops, on the ground in relative safety. if you really cant put your mind in a dangerous situation without putting your body there, i think you miss the point im trying to make.

the simple fact is rooftops are cool, we can get up there and others cant, we can make the jumps that people dont see or are too scared to make. all this makes us feel special, other than that what is your reason for being on a roof top?

dont tell me that its to break fear, you already said that you feel no fear, so why do it? why risk the legality to make a jump that you may or may not make anyway?

i rock climb, and climb trees, both are dangerous activities. you know how i train for these? i climb like im 1000 feet off the ground, if i slip i die. regardless of me being mere feet from the ground, i train my mind to push forth and to not give up under any circumstances. i dont need to be 1000 feet off the ground to feel that i am on the border of death and life. i dont need to jump a gap from a roof to another roof to feel a special feeling like i over came something.

i used to think this way, now i see how impractical it is. if i go for a jump across a long side walk (like 15 feet or whatever) and land wrong i can twist an ankle. do the same thing with a 10 foot drop from one roof to another and you can shatter an ankle. trip up on the run up while mere feet from the edge of the roof at a full speed run and tell me how you recover. by the skin of your teeth id assume.

the point im trying to make is, there is no real practical reason for roof top training. if you really think there is, cool go for it. im telling you that there isnt, like i said the mind can be trained at any distance from the ground, you dont have to be on roof tops to break the fear.

my training isnt about the adrenaline rush, so no i dont push myself on roof tops to do jumps. i eye them up and evaluate them but, never do them. its not that im scared of the idea of failure, its more about knowing what i can and cant do. im honest with myself, "yes i can make this jump, no im too weak to make that jump".

honesty with yourself is what it comes down to, the actual action of jumping the gap is too little too late in regards of thinking about it. the reason you dont get scared mid jump is because your trained your body to know to roll and land well. you dont have time to think of fear in the middle of a jump.

after 9 years of extreme sports and other stupid stuff i realized this. you dont feel fear during, you feel it before and after. in the moment  i feel clarity and acceptance of whatever may come. in the mere moments it takes you to complete a jump do you really think of the fear? is thats what you are trying to break? there are better ways to break fear than to put yourself in a situation that can quickly end your life because your foot slips, trips or gets caught on something.

your right, im not an elite traceur, and i do look up to the older videos of the french founders for their precision and willingness to do it again, and again, and again, and again. the images of them are just iconic and stick with me, im sorry if i bring them up a lot. i like to pay my respects to those who showed me the opportunities that are all around me.

oh and its not like im saying "only the founders are trust worthy of rooftop ventures". im simply saying that the control they show has been around for years. to me they have absolutely without a doubt proved it numerous times, in many ways. i also think oleg, ilabaca and many many many many many other traceurs have suitable skills for roof tops. just because someone shows their control in videos doesnt mean that they dont mess up. the simple fact is there is a thing called human error, it happens, its inevitable, do you really want that time to be on a roof top 3 stories off the ground...? i sure as hell dont.

sorry for pushing my ways on you, and anyone else who got offended. spending time on roof tops is f#cking stupid in my opinion, if you really want to risk everything including your life, go for it, just dont bitch and complain when it didnt actually further your progression other than "breaking fear".

did i mention its illegal?

also, i never said motivation comes from the founders. it was easily misconstrued into that, so sorry. should i change the word founders to elite traceurs? because i never really thought about roof gaps until i saw "elite traceurs" doing them in all the videos. then more videos came out, then more, then more. now almost every video has a roof top in it.

parkour is most useful at ground level, over the past couple years ive been on APK ive seen people say things like "why are you training for 20 foot drops?" "rooftops are illegal and dangerous, stay away" now we have a thread dedicated to the idea of jumping around on roof tops.

am i really the one being inconsistent here? im promoting the safety and legal aspect of parkour training. just because you can do the jump, does that mean you really should?

doesnt anyone remember the interviews with cyril and david in california?

"looking down at a 30 foot drop, i turn to cyril and ask playfully "you got it, go for it" to which he replied "why? if my family was down there and needed me, i wouldnt hesitate. i know i can make the jump safely and thats good enough for me" (obviously a paraphrase but, more or less spot on)

« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 02:39:25 PM by max eisenberg »


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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2010, 02:36:01 PM »
Max, you gave a well thought out post and made your reasons very easy to understand. Imaginary +1

Offline max eisenberg

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2010, 02:42:29 PM »
i really do apologize about any remarks that can be taken the wrong way, i have a tendency to right my feelings first and then think later. i just dont want anyone thinking "hey man APK is cool about roof tops if we train right" and then go do 30 squats and climb the nearest building thinking they are ready.

we are talking about YEARS built upon YEARS before these kinds of things are feasible and safely performed. longevity is what i aim for, breaking fear comes with time, time put in doing the dirty stuff like millions of squats, pushups and dead lifts. breaking fear doesnt come from a jump or two, it comes from looking deep within and being truly honest about your abilities.

if you know you can do the jump, do you need to do the jump to tell yourself you can?



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Offline MThomasfreerun

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2010, 03:06:28 PM »
@Seaton: DEFINITELY NOT trying to "school" anybody. As a fellow J.D. you undoubtedly know what I'm getting at, as I do with your comments. You had brought up the point and that was merely my counter-argument. So if I offended, it was not my intention - I appreciate and respect your comments pretty much always.  Best of luck with the bar - it must be coming up this week?

@Max: I read all of your comments and I honestly appreciate the response. After reading this, I believe I understand your point of view - specifically regarding this topic as well as in general -  much better. In respect, I'll chill the @$%^ out with you, and offer a sincere apology and an olive branch.

Back to the topic at hand:  I believe it is a fine fine line to walk on here - as is apparent by the comments on each side. I don't advise trespassing, and if you are going up on a roof  you'd better be prepared to face the flashing lights - fines, probation, criminal record, etc.  If you decide you're willing to face THOSE consequences, you still have to face the danger involved, as mentioned. If your trained up and ready (as Max said - this is probably YEARS, not months) of training on ground/safe environments, then make your choice. If you started last week, even I would advise against it. It's still your choice, but I'd be seriously concerned about your safety.
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Offline max eisenberg

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2010, 03:10:00 PM »
@Seaton: DEFINITELY NOT trying to "school" anybody. As a fellow J.D. you undoubtedly know what I'm getting at, as I do with your comments. You had brought up the point and that was merely my counter-argument. So if I offended, it was not my intention - I appreciate and respect your comments pretty much always.  Best of luck with the bar - it must be coming up this week?

@Max: I read all of your comments and I honestly appreciate the response. After reading this, I believe I understand your point of view - specifically regarding this topic as well as in general -  much better. In respect, I'll chill the @$%^ out with you, and offer a sincere apology and an olive branch.

Back to the topic at hand:  I believe it is a fine fine line to walk on here - as is apparent by the comments on each side. I don't advise trespassing, and if you are going up on a roof  you'd better be prepared to face the flashing lights - fines, probation, criminal record, etc.  If you decide you're willing to face THOSE consequences, you still have to face the danger involved, as mentioned. If your trained up and ready (as Max said - this is probably YEARS, not months) of training on ground/safe environments, then make your choice. If you started last week, even I would advise against it. It's still your choice, but I'd be seriously concerned about your safety.

life is too short to be mad about things as petty as words. i appreciate you taking the time to understand my thought process, sometimes it comes out sloppy :D

the only thing im truly concerned about with rooftops is danger and the law. being that i have had my taste of the law with roof tops, i dont wish to have a taste of the danger!

all i gotta say is... thank god for community service and not fines!


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Offline Scared Doggy

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2010, 03:19:44 PM »
I just want to bring up some disjointed points for you guys to think about because too much of this topic is being treated as black and white.
One thing I want to say is that people take the term ground level training too literally. You can still train stuff up high but still have it considered ground level. And it takes a ton of focus and confidence to complete these moves whether you're high up or on a roof. Ground level is pretty much everything not on rooftops.
So moving onto roof jumps. Most of them I see on videos are shitty little gaps that don't mean much other then, woo I'm on a roof and jumped between buildings. I'm guilty of having done a few of these gaps before, and they're fun. But how many of you guys have actually done a real roof gap? One where you truly had to use all your strength to overcome. That last part was directed at all the people who are fiercely defending roof gaps.
Just a few random thoughts on mind.
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Offline Chris Seaton

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2010, 03:35:14 PM »
MThomas, check your PMs.

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Offline MThomasfreerun

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2010, 03:38:29 PM »
I just want to bring up some disjointed points for you guys to think about because too much of this topic is being treated as black and white.
One thing I want to say is that people take the term ground level training too literally. You can still train stuff up high but still have it considered ground level. And it takes a ton of focus and confidence to complete these moves whether you're high up or on a roof. Ground level is pretty much everything not on rooftops.

I agree - I guess I consider it anything one story or more that's not intended to be a walkway/foot path.

Quote
But how many of you guys have actually done a real roof gap? One where you truly had to use all your strength to overcome. That last part was directed at all the people who are fiercely defending roof gaps.
Just a few random thoughts on mind.

I've done a few but I don't train them specifically.   - And I don't think I've attempted one where I had to use ALL of my strength (even I have limits on what I think is a good idea), still...there was not much room for error - as Max pointed out my avatar...definitely no room to land short on that one.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 03:53:04 PM by MThomasfreerun »
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Offline Tex__

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2010, 04:13:19 PM »
ok im new to parkour kinda. to those who don't know me ive been doing this for about 5 months. to those who do know me, hi Colby and Chris.

i am not against roof gaps for experienced people. i will not touch them right now because i feel i am no where near ready. but i think Evan is right with the "we say no because when they get to the point there ready they will know why we say no."

everyone here has valid points. but i feel the need to argue one thing. max said you can train and pretend to be in a dangerous spot. i can't do this. before i started parkour i was an adrenaline junky from hell. i would do stupid dangerous shit to get a rush, and i did have a death wish. so i can not imagine doing something dangerous, its not the same. if your on a roof you feel the wind a lot more than on the ground, and the way you look at things is different. there really is no way i could just pretend to be up high, if you can thats great but not everyone can. like i said i am not currently doing roof gaps because i feel i am not ready. being on a roof has a very different feel than the ground.


So moving onto roof jumps. Most of them I see on videos are shitty little gaps that don't mean much other then, woo I'm on a roof and jumped between buildings. I'm guilty of having done a few of these gaps before, and they're fun. But how many of you guys have actually done a real roof gap? One where you truly had to use all your strength to overcome.

so f#ck progression then? what happened to starting small and working your way up?
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Offline Fecteau

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2010, 04:25:28 PM »

so f#ck progression then? what happened to starting small and working your way up?

AMEN. Progression FTMFW.
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Offline Tex__

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2010, 05:06:46 PM »
I understand where everyone is coming from, but I just want to make a few points.

1. I think there are enough resources out there for beginners, and not many people these days start out by doing reckless roof jumps. We talk all the time about the "reckless newbies" who go around doing "rooftop jumps" but honestly how many people start out like this anymore. Its similar to the feared influx of newbies, that we assumed would come after the Ultimate Parkour Challenge.

2. Parkour is a high risk activity by nature. People use more caution on rooftops, then they do at ground level. More people injure themselves by clipping their feet on kongs then people do on rooftops.

3. People have been on rooftops since the beginning of Parkour. Stop acting as if only the "original traceurs" should be allowed to do it. Your only limiting yourself and enticing others to do the same.

4. Most people don't train huge drops or gaps on a regular basis to begin with.

5. Rooftop training is not limited to "huge drops" or "huge gaps". As I have stated several times before, training wall runs and climbing skills is quite useful on rooftops.


No one is pressuring anyone into training rooftop gaps or jumps anyway! But we shouldn't go around saying that they shouldn't be done either. If we go around saying that rooftop jumps are a "no, no" then

what are we saying about David Belle, Sebastien Foucan, the Yamakasi, Daniel Ilabaca, Phil Doyle, and anyone else who has ever been on a rooftop? Its very much a double standard to say that all those  

guys are allowed to train on rooftops, but anyone who comes to the APK community is not allowed to progress towards that point. I'm not advocating that beginners should be on rooftops; thats the

opposite of what I'm promoting; I am simply pointing out that discouraging rooftop training when one has progressed to that level stifles freedom, and starts to tell people what they should and should not

do. This stifles the freedom of training Parkour.
this was a truly great post. good job man
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Offline Fecteau

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Re: Roof jumping: Question!
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2010, 07:01:18 PM »
I understand where everyone is coming from, but I just want to make a few points.

1. I think there are enough resources out there for beginners, and not many people these days start out by doing reckless roof jumps. We talk all the time about the "reckless newbies" who go around doing "rooftop jumps" but honestly how many people start out like this anymore.
TONS. METRIC TONS.
I did, my friend did, everyone I know did, ect ect.
And you have these 12 year olds look up PK vids and see roof jumping and instantly go out and try it. Common sense, you'll find, people now have a general lack of.
Fecteau, you are the first person I will turn to when I break up with Micah, haha
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Fect, you get a gold star for the day.