Author Topic: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???  (Read 7116 times)

naturalninja

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how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« on: April 23, 2010, 08:59:30 AM »
so, aswell as MovNat and all that i like primitive skills/bushcraft/etc and was thinking about all the different movement you actually need to do to live naturally.

so i was thinking:

1  what are we most suited to? back to bows and arrows or back to persistance hunting? if its bows and arrows then running becomes ALOT less important (as possibly does jumping)

2  why isn't stalking included in evoltuionary fitness yokes? you're never gonna eat any meat unless you can stalk! (unless of course we're more suited to persistance hunting as above)

3  is MovNat too focused on the emergency preparedness/situational side of things and therefore loses out on naturalness? (i realise the amount we actually know about MovNat is limited, i hear the DVD is coming soon tho:D)

4  just writing this im reminded of a chapter from Exuberant Animal by Frank Forencich where he kinda gives a diary account of a day in the life of a primitive person, in which they SCAVENGE food from some lions (i think??:/ sorry) are we more suited to living as scavengers??? (im just flinging ideas out here btw i have no idea whats correct)

5  could someone direct me to the science/records/whatever that support evolutionary living (ive read some of it, but if anyone knew where i could find it in bulk that would be awesome:D)

6  should throwing not be more like throwing bolas, throwing sticks and maybe also harpoons or spears? (or once again are we more sutied to persistance hunting?)

7 when is one ever gonna use catching????????????? (ok well living naturally where i live i dont think it would be useful)

8  is self defence really that natural?


my biggest problem is with catching, is it just there to balance out the muscle strength you'll be gaining from throwing or something?????

thankst:)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 09:03:17 AM by naturalninja »

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 01:26:52 PM »
Bushcraft is cool. I like to pretend I'd do well, but in real life I haven't practiced enough.

1. "What are we most suited to?" is not the same thing as "What puts food in my stomach?" There's a reason humans started farming and domesticating animals... Physically, the current thought is we're best suited to persistance hunting. I've chased deer through fields. They're FAST. So are cats. Ever tried to catch a cat that didn't want to be caught? Give me snares and ranged weapons!

2. Stealth = practice it when walking, running, climbing, crawling... Basically think "What would I do if I were a freerunner?" and do the opposite. :D

3. Who knows? :P

4. Scavenging is one option. Due to spoilage or bacteria, I would probably only do it as a later option.

5. Let me look...

6. Throw isn't just about tossing rocks at a target or putting shot. It's also throwing ropes, throwing something into the garbage, tossing a tool to a friend who's up in a tree, tossing food down from a tree... Try to think of 30 different situations where you might have to throw something... if you have bolas or spears you can try those, too.

7. Think about it some more.

8. Defense is about overcoming or subduing another living being. It's probably more natural than swimming. In practice you don't want to injure or kill each other. So you look for ways to limit the risk.





naturalninja

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 02:40:18 PM »
1. "What are we most suited to?" is not the same thing as "What puts food in my stomach?" There's a reason humans started farming and domesticating animals... Physically, the current thought is we're best suited to persistance hunting. I've chased deer through fields. They're FAST. So are cats. Ever tried to catch a cat that didn't want to be caught? Give me snares and ranged weapons!

in a way, i hope you're right, cause i love running!:D but in another way, i have a lot of practice to do!

2. Stealth = practice it when walking, running, climbing, crawling... Basically think "What would I do if I were a freerunner?" and do the opposite. :D

hmmm, but if you're persistance hunting you hardly need it?

6. Throw isn't just about tossing rocks at a target or putting shot. It's also throwing ropes, throwing something into the garbage, tossing a tool to a friend who's up in a tree, tossing food down from a tree... Try to think of 30 different situations where you might have to throw something... if you have bolas or spears you can try those, too.

yea but none of those are really natural

8. Defense is about overcoming or subduing another living being. It's probably more natural than swimming. In practice you don't want to injure or kill each other. So you look for ways to limit the risk.

but the only animals we have here are sheep! and they'd be more scared of me!

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2010, 03:52:19 PM »
Run in case you have no tools. Learn to improvise weapons and build snares, deadfalls, etc. if you want to eat, tho.
Persistence hunting - I don't know if 1 person can do it effectively. From very limited experience, I don't think so.

Throwing isn't natural? or none of those scenarios are natural? Are you thinking "alone" or "part of a group"?

Defense: Sheep + people + dogs... A ram can inflict a serious injury, tho. I'd stick to people, and keeping it friendly cooperation rather than a heavy thrashing.

naturalninja

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 04:51:08 AM »
Run in case you have no tools. Learn to improvise weapons and build snares, deadfalls, etc. if you want to eat, tho.
Persistence hunting - I don't know if 1 person can do it effectively. From very limited experience, I don't think so.

sorry i dont really understand your pint here, what were you responding to?

Throwing isn't natural? or none of those scenarios are natural? Are you thinking "alone" or "part of a group"?

none of the scenarios

Offline Derek broussard

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2010, 02:25:22 AM »
 

 In order to achieve a good hunt/kill ratio with  persistence hunting you need  three people.  Two to leap frog "speed" to keep the animal constantly on the go. The third is the "killer" he will be staying back some, usually a bigger build.  Usually a kill isn't completely necessary as the animal will over heat to the point its lungs fill with blood and its brain starts to boil.


  Im not too sure about the scavenging,  we as humans  do not have a great nose, we are usually repulsed by the smell of road kill,  And Fighing a pride of lions barehanded over dinner doesn't sound like something humans would be good at.  But would make Defense very practical and natural.

   I personally believe we evolved to run down animals, but always around water for safety, and bearing young. We probably evolved better brains due to fish, meat, and " the chase"

 
  Stalking: is a very practical skill to learn and is much easier barefoot. 

naturalninja

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2010, 10:47:27 AM »


 In order to achieve a good hunt/kill ratio with  persistence hunting you need  three people.  Two to leap frog "speed" to keep the animal constantly on the go. The third is the "killer" he will be staying back some, usually a bigger build.  Usually a kill isn't completely necessary as the animal will over heat to the point its lungs fill with blood and its brain starts to boil.

oh jeez...that really puts me off the idea :-X
 
  Stalking: is a very practical skill to learn and is much easier barefoot. 
yea!:D but is it natural?

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2010, 12:47:21 PM »
Cats: "Stalking's natural."
Dogs: "Track it and close in as a pack."
Sharks: "Come into the ocean, and find out for yourself." ;D

naturalninja

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2010, 12:56:49 PM »
humans: ?

depending on the time period, persistance hunting or ranged weapons

Offline Ozzi

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2010, 06:07:32 PM »
Of course stalking is natural, you can ambush a pray wo stalking it first.

Something we did a lot.

Now a days, Im sure existent tribes and other primitive communities do.
"Be the change you want to see in the world"
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Offline pkGorilla

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2010, 01:14:54 PM »
I don't really understand the point your trying to make about "is it natural?" naturalninja. I think you are thinking too much of other predatory animals who have specialized in a certain way of hunting, as Gregg said cat's stalk, dog's track in pack etc.
If your trying to think back to how pre-farming humans used to hunt and basing your conclusions on that then throwing, stalking and almost every other hunting technique would be natural. I think that's one of the reasons humans have become such a dominant species is due to our adaptability, we were able to hunt almost any prey in any scenario through use of spears and such.

I don't think it's "natural" for Homo Sapiens Sapiens to use persistence hunting to catch prey, maybe in a survival situation where you had no equipment you could use our species unrivaled running distances to hunt but I think early men would have hunted with weapons and with snares, using their brains to hunt.

I think Homo Erectus would've used persistence hunting to hunt but later species of humans wouldn't have.



But that's just my opinion, I'm not qualified to talk about this really.

Offline Derek broussard

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2010, 01:45:12 PM »
I

I don't think it's "natural" for Homo Sapiens Sapiens to use persistence hunting to catch prey, maybe in a survival situation where you had no equipment you could use our species unrivaled running distances to hunt but I think early men would have hunted with weapons and with snares, using their brains to hunt.

I think Homo Erectus would've used persistence hunting to hunt but later species of humans wouldn't have.


  * You do realize there are traditional tribes across the globe that STILL persistent hunt.  The Kalahari in Africa and the Raramuri people of Northern Mexico are some of the more popular.
 
   * Sometime the animal dies quick and its brain boils, other times the animal will just be too tired to run, but still have some fight.  This is where the spear comes comes in. It is much easier to enjoy your kill when your guts or brains are not dripping out of your body from damage received by your prey. 

   *  Persistent hunting, and being formed from such harsh environments have lead to humans to evolve  a " energy conservation mindset"   aka being lazy.  Its easy to imagine when your chasing a prey you dont want to follow the same path, instead we try to "cut it off" by taking diagonal routes. From shortcuts we move to a short projectile, Now I a chance to kill it before it over heats. And I dont have to get within hoof range... eventually short projectiles increased and the " Run phase was nocked out of the system. It became all about the stalk.  Follow the path of energy conservation and eventually you lead to us sitting on a couch "catching" diner by calling the pizza guy or sitting in a car ordering eating a burger.

   
    * This is just a loose idea that popped up in my mind but I think it warrants some research.  neanderthal and cro magnus  lived together for a long time 20,000 years ( off the top of my head)  I wonder if the  genocide of neanderthal from cro magnus relates to the time we stopped running for our food?   Think about it... running creates beta endorphins and the " runners high"  happy, fit, horny people.  Stop running and you become less happy, More competitive?

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2010, 05:42:20 PM »
Maybe Neanderthal couldn't run as fast, and tasted good...

naturalninja

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2010, 11:08:40 AM »
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

conversation on twitter between Erwan Le Corre and Nick Hoffman

green is Nick Hoffman

blue is Erwan Le Corre



@Erwan_Le_Corre When walking, do you step down with your forefoot first, as you do running, or do you land mostly flatfooted?

@nphoffman mostly heel striking. Walk naturally.

@Erwan_Le_Corre Part of me thought that I'd simply conditioned myself to heel strike while walking with shoes. Thanks.

@nphoffman nope. Look at young kids walking barefoot, or native/indigeneous people if you get a chance to meet some one day.

@Erwan_Le_Corre I haven't yet, but I'm really looking forward to meeting native/indigenous people who move more naturally than me.

@nphoffman There are different ways to land when walking but that's for special purpose like stalking, silent walking, unsafe grounds etc.


i think this is interesting because

1. Erwan is talking about stalking so perhpas he considers it a natural movement

2. alot of natural movement people are pro forefoot walking

thoughts please:)

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2010, 10:46:59 AM »
When I read this, I still got the parts confused the first time ;D

There are MANY different ways to alter your walk [Monty Python's "Ministry of Silly Walks" ;D ]
but some aren't very efficient.



Stalking is a PURPOSE. Walking toe-heel is a natural movement.
Hebert had everybody walk around on their toes during part of his cool-down routine.

From a tango site, they said that walking heel-toe is much more efficient [toe heel uses 53% more energy].
    When human subjects walked with their heels slightly elevated in a ‘low-digitigrade’[toe first] posture, COT [cost of transport] increased by 53% above that of normal plantigrade [heel first] walking.

    Cunningham, C. B., Schilling, N., Anders, C. and Carrier, D. R. (2010).
    The influence of foot posture on the cost of transport in humans.
    J. Exp. Biol. 213, 790-797


naturalninja

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2010, 08:38:46 AM »
ok heres the original point i was trying to make, hopefully phrased better:P

anyway the point i wanted to make was if the movement isn't a movement that you would actually perform if living wild then i don't see how it's natural

a lot of the time people use primtive tribes as the yard stick for what is natural, and although primitive tribes live in many diverse ways, surely somethig more natural would be:

throwing stick throwing:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rSUVaAdx0W0?fs=1&hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rSUVaAdx0W0?fs=1&hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

persistence hunting (in terms of physical skills ultra endurance running):

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climbing for fruits, birds eggs, etc:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oVuFe4Z4P4M&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oVuFe4Z4P4M&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

maybe a little bit of lifting and carrying rocks for traps:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/M3kUqIP46dE?fs=1&hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/M3kUqIP46dE?fs=1&hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

also many other things, stalking, carrying wood, using bow-drills, etc.


but then again if you lived in a different part of the world the skill set might be quite different, like the moken (click on the turtle beside "begin your journey" for the video)

i just dont see though when i am going to need to throw a rock to a friend or quad around without actually moving under anything or being on an incline when you're living naturally

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: how evolutionary is evolutionary fitness???
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2010, 04:07:12 PM »
There are times when you may have to throw something to another person. Rocks are cheap, fairly heavy, so they make for good things to practice with. It's safer and cheaper than using small children. ;D

QM on flat surface is safe practice for when you have to move on more dangerous surfaces. Or, with my recent leg injury, to move without causing more trauma to the injury. Also, crawling lets you get places you couldn't if you were upright. Instead of practicing in a low cave, most people find it easier, safer, & more convenient to do on the grass ;D

I get your point. My point is you practice in a safer environment, to avoid or reduce injury.