Author Topic: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins  (Read 14704 times)

Offline Chris [.5gibbon] Stevenson!

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2010, 08:27:09 PM »
nick kelly, first im sorry for using the word gay as a negative. i assure you i meant no harm to anyone who might be homosexual. with that said i think you misunderstood my post.  i was trying to say that i think conditioning is an absolutely necessity, but not the way they teach it.   maybe we should insist that traceurs who want to become certified parkour teachers should first be certified as physical trainers. (i don't know any good pt certifications off the top of my head someone help me out if you know any good ones)
"Be like water making its way through cracks.  Do not be assertive,  but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it." - Bruce Lee

"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe

Offline DaveS

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2010, 09:58:42 PM »
Rafe, I was just going by what you said about giving your students drills. If you're choosing the exercises then you're the one in control and making the decisions.
If the athletes that are winning competitions had all the decision making ability and mental strengths then they wouldn't have coaches because there would be no use for them.

Zachary, the reason your actions didn't result in you being paralysed was as a result of the qualities you mentioned. However, the reason you did those actions in the first place was because you made a poor decision that put you in that situation. The reason you messed up once you were in that situation? Misjudgrment. The reason you were practising on something your physical attributes would cope with failure on? Judgement.
You can't guarantee training safety with physical development, because you can always find yourself in a situation that is more than you can handle if judgement is off. However physically capable you are, the environment can damage you if you let your guard down. So keep your guard up, keep your mind strong.

Jordan, quotes from this website are not exactly infallible. You're right though that we do need to experience failures in order to appreciate the importance of staying alert, which is why I have been stressing the importance of making sure those failures happen in situations with less serious consequences.


Physical training is as important as mental training. You can have the strongest mind in the world but it's useless without a body that can act and influence its surroundings. Neither exists separately, it's not possible to have a strong mind without using physical actions as a means of training it, and it's not possible to train your own physical abilities without a strong mind.
It is just not the part of your training that keeps you safe.
~ Dave
NorthernParkour and the British Parkour Coaching Association

Offline Rafe

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2010, 10:31:33 PM »

Zachary, the reason your actions didn't result in you being paralysed was as a result of the qualities you mentioned.

Physical training is as important as mental training.
It is just not the part of your training that keeps you safe.

Your directly contridicting yourself. I see no further use in discussing with you.
I shall not fear, fear is the mind killer the little death that precedes total obliteration

I will face my fear, I will let it pass over and through me and were it is gone, I will turn the inner eye and see its path, and only I will remain.

Offline DaveS

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2010, 09:00:24 AM »
If you read it carefully it's not a contradiction. 

If a guy is firing bullets at you you're not safe just because none of them have hit you yet.
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Offline Bao

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2010, 09:38:45 AM »
I love parkour because of its definition of strength. It is more holistic than any other discipline I've encountered. You need to seek increases in strength -- physical, mental and emotional -- to become better at parkour. I honestly don't value physical strength much, besides as a means to an end. However, I do value the gains in mental and emotional strength I have seen as a result of my parkour training. Those are the strength gains that matter the most and will have the farthest reaching effects in my life for years to come.
This.

Offline Zachary Cohn

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2010, 11:41:18 AM »
Rafe, I was just going by what you said about giving your students drills. If you're choosing the exercises then you're the one in control and making the decisions.
If the athletes that are winning competitions had all the decision making ability and mental strengths then they wouldn't have coaches because there would be no use for them.

Rafe is the one in control and making the decisions because he is the teacher, and they are the students. They do not know, and so Rafe is teaching them. By being good students, they can learn the content he is teaching, but also good programming, good practices, how to be safe. They won't always be students.

Quote
Zachary, the reason your actions didn't result in you being paralysed was as a result of the qualities you mentioned. However, the reason you did those actions in the first place was because you made a poor decision that put you in that situation. The reason you messed up once you were in that situation? Misjudgrment. The reason you were practising on something your physical attributes would cope with failure on? Judgement.
You can't guarantee training safety with physical development, because you can always find yourself in a situation that is more than you can handle if judgement is off. However physically capable you are, the environment can damage you if you let your guard down. So keep your guard up, keep your mind strong.

Incorrect. I thought I mentioned this, but I just checked and apparently I hadn't. I had done the exact jump several times, immediately prior to the incident. It wasn't an issue of misjudgement, it was an issue of "sometimes something happens."

Quote
Physical training is as important as mental training. You can have the strongest mind in the world but it's useless without a body that can act and influence its surroundings. Neither exists separately, it's not possible to have a strong mind without using physical actions as a means of training it, and it's not possible to train your own physical abilities without a strong mind.
It is just not the part of your training that keeps you safe.

No one is arguing that a strong mind isn't important. So I think you're actually, at this point, agreeing with what everyone else is saying.

Offline DaveS

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2010, 12:39:34 PM »
Zachary, I wasn't arguing against coaches choosing the exercises in classes. You're right, that's the way it has to be with beginners.
I was just pointing out that it isn't the physical conditioning that is keeping the students safe while they are in the classes, but the ability of the coach to judge suitable exercises.

Having done the jump before is irrelevant, because if there's anything this situation proves it's that things can change between consecutive repetitions. You need to evaluate the situation every time you are about to act. With each repetition your muscles get a little more tired, your mind relaxes a little more, you become a little less motivated to do it again.
There is always a reason for an accident to occur. In this case, you made a mistake. Not in judging the physical obstacle but in judging your own ability. You thought you could do it safely that time and you were wrong.
Every action is preceded by an evaluation and a decision, and they are the the things that keep you safe or put you in danger.

I mentioned my views on the importance of both physical and mental training to prevent people getting confused and thinking that I favour one over another. I agree, it looks like we all think the same way on that part, I just wanted to make sure people were clear that we're not debating the overall usefulness of physical training, only it's application to safety,
~ Dave
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Offline Zachary Cohn

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2010, 04:09:53 PM »
Zachary, I wasn't arguing against coaches choosing the exercises in classes. You're right, that's the way it has to be with beginners.
I was just pointing out that it isn't the physical conditioning that is keeping the students safe while they are in the classes, but the ability of the coach to judge suitable exercises.

I don't really see how physical conditioning doesn't strengthen someone's ankles so they don't roll it, or give someone the hand strength to grab onto a bar after slipping and preventing a fall.

Offline DaveS

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2010, 06:47:29 PM »
When we're talking about safety what we're really talking about is risk; the likelihood of injury. Flying in a modern plane is safer than flying in one of the first planes because, although you're still going to die if there is a serious problem, the likelihood of a serious problem occurring is much lower.

When we're talking about movement, if you're stronger then specific obstacles will become safer as the likelihood of something happening that you can't deal with decreases. You get more capable, the forces and other demands stay the same, so of course it gets safer. Dropping 3 feet onto stronger ankles is safer than dropping 3 feet onto weak ankles, we all know this.

However, we're talking about parkour, and parkour doesn't involve sticking to specific obstacles. To keep your training challenging (and therefore effective) your training needs to get harder at the same rate as your ability improves, and so you need more demanding obstacles. The more physically capable you are, the more physically demanding your obstacles need to be for you to keep improving. If you were dropping 3 feet before, now your ankles are stronger you will be dropping maybe 4 or 5 feet.
Unfortunately as the physical difficulty of the obstacle increases so does the danger, because the forces that provide the challenge are also the forces that cause the injuries. Although each specific obstacle will become safer, your training doesn't get safer because you use more dangerous obstacles. The danger of your training increases at the same time as your abilities.
Obstacles become safer as you get physically stronger, but practising parkour doesn't.
~ Dave
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Offline Jordan Strybos

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2010, 06:52:06 PM »
Jordan, quotes from this website are not exactly infallible. You're right though that we do need to experience failures in order to appreciate the importance of staying alert, which is why I have been stressing the importance of making sure those failures happen in situations with less serious consequences.

All I'm saying is that if the best of the best in American Parkour are telling us directly to condition our bodies first, to me that means that we should condition...I'm not really sure why that makes the quote fallible?  And as for the second part, what I was saying was that there's no way of guaranteeing that failures happen in situations with less serious consequences; even the simplest moves can result in the most dangerous bails.  This is why conditioning is important.  If you're training a simple move and only ready to react to a small fall or spill, and something much more serious happens, you are completely screwed.

The more physically capable you are, the more physically demanding your obstacles need to be for you to keep improving. If you were dropping 3 feet before, now your ankles are stronger you will be dropping maybe 4 or 5 feet.

TERRIBLE EXAMPLE!  I know what you're getting at, but honestly, I'm pretty sure one of the fundamental truths in parkour is that you shouldn't take big drops.  The idea is that you can condition your ankles and body at a height that is much less threatening and damaging to your body.  There is nothing that says that as you improve, you need to take bigger risks.  As you improve, your obstacles needn't get more threatening, you just simply get a lot better and more capable of overcoming them.

Offline DaveS

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2010, 07:44:44 PM »
If you keep doing the same repetitions of the same movement at the same speed in the same way as you always have done, you will not improve. You can't improve unless you keep challenging yourself. That's the way life works.

The 'best of the best in American Parkour' are still human, and therefore not without fault. Also, compared to how long it takes to fully understand a life-long method such as parkour, every parkour practitioner is a newcomer. Even the oldest information on this website is only a few years old, and a few years is nowhere near enough time to test the ideas properly. I've been part of the parkour community for a long time, and I've seen how all of these ideas have developed from nothing. Nobody understands it anywhere near fully, and all views need to be challenged.

Parkour exists to help people become strong and capable individuals, part of which is the ability to think for themselves and not to have to blindly take the word of other people. For reliable information you can't rely on the thoughts of others. To practise parkour in the long-term you need to challenge everything, experience things and make decisions for yourself.
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Offline Zachary Cohn

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2010, 07:48:26 AM »
Dave Sedgley - The major difference here between what you're saying, specifically quote:

"Even the oldest information on this website is only a few years old, and a few years is nowhere near enough time to test the ideas properly."

"I've seen how all of these ideas have developed from nothing"

and

"Nobody understands it anywhere near fully, and all views need to be challenged."

The major difference is that we're not really talking about parkour here. We're talking about physical fitness and physical training. These are not specific to parkour. So these ideas have not developed from nothing in the past few years, they've been discussed and refined and revised and abandoned and recovered and restarted over the past thousands of years. What we are talking about is the cumulative sum of human fitness knowledge. People like Rafe have read and learned from Mark Rippetoe, Coach Sommer, Charles Poliquin - who are people at the top of their specific fields.

To your last quote, who am we to challenge people who have devoted their lives to research - in the library, in the laboratory, and in the gym, coached olympic athletes, and challenged popular fitness "truths" with facts, evidence, and science to back that up. I agree we should always keep a filter on and look out for bad information, and we should not take ANYTHING at face value. But to say that we're figuring all this out for ourselves is reinventing the wheel and spitting in the face of other people (who are much, much, much smarter than you and I)'s research and knowledge.

That's all I have to say on this subject.

Offline DaveS

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2010, 09:21:45 AM »
Almost all of the fitness research that has been carried out has been done from the perspective of competition. The vast majority has been targeted at improving peak performance with respect to specific goals, because in the competitive world that is all that matters. There are standard measurements by which everyone in these activities measures success and people are driven to improve in those ways. To lift more weight, to run faster and longer, to jump further and higher. These are how most people think success should be measured, and these are the kinds of assumptions made by most training principles and coaches.
But what about teaching people how to be strong at the age of 90?

That is the problem with your argument, because parkour is simply not the same as any other activity.
It's not competitive, it doesn't have specific or finite goals. What it has is a single clear purpose, to get past any and every obstacle you encounter throughout your whole life, which is unique.
The limitations that other activities accept, such as being weak in old age, requiring external motivation, needing to rest for a day after effective training, injuries being part of life, don't exist in parkour.

Parkour is not competitive, reaching high peaks of physical fitness is pointless if it means neglecting other areas. Parkour measures success not by achievement, but by preparation and improvement, because it recognises that our lives are unique and unpredictable and any practical real-world task will require many strengths.
We can't guarantee on being able to rely on others to solve problems so we need to be capable ourselves. We don't know what will happen tomorrow so we need to be prepared for anything. We don't always have people around to motivate us so we need to motivate ourselves. We can't guarantee that an emergency will happen on our allocated exercise days so we need to moderate our training to still be effective between dedicated training sessions. We may not have strong people with us when we are old, so we still need to be strong then.
We all know that we can achieve these things, but because of how we are conditioned by other people we don't truly believe it. Everybody tells us that how things are now is as good as they can be, so we write-off the few good examples as being the exceptions rather than the rule.

Fitness experts are not experts on parkour, because parkour involves an entirely new purpose. It has a completely different direction, and the assumptions about people's goals that traditional fitness instructors make simply do not hold because of this.
~ Dave
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2010, 12:10:37 PM »
"because it recognises that our lives are unique and unpredictable and any practical real-world task will require many strengths."

See this is where you lose me - personifying parkour and stating what Parkour wants for you as a unique individual ...

BTW, even what you have stated above is not new - see the CrossFit defnition of General Preparedness.

In addition, the points you make about biometrics measured for sport is notr a new concept either - please read this article before replying http://crossfitauckland.com/police-training/

“The difference between combat and sports is that in combat you bury the guy who comes in second.” - Unidentified Navy SEAL on the Discovery Channel’s “U.S. Navy SEALS II,” 1999

I'm afraid that in your last post you seem to have confused the definition for "Parkour" with the definition for "Life" - I agree with the vast majority of points you make in that post, but those are LIFE things that every person faces whether or not they practice parkour.

Unfortunately you talk in such broad generalities that there's no real point in having a discussion with you that is counter to your views - "Fitness experts are not experts on parkour, because parkour involves an entirely new purpose." --- arrogance for sure --- what part of parkour is not covered by things known by advanced martial artists, kinesiologists, chiropractors, physical therapists, advanced military operators, and philosophers?

Do you really believe that the idea of obstacle coursing for fitness and improved mental acumen is an entirely new concept?

And then you go on to say that others have assumptions about people's goals - how TF do you know what they assume? Have you asked fitness experts? Who are these fitness experts you are discussing this with to build all this angst against these poor people?

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Offline NOS - from Parkour Mumbai

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2010, 12:30:44 PM »
We can't guarantee on being able to rely on others to solve problems so we need to be capable ourselves. We don't know what will happen tomorrow so we need to be prepared for anything. We don't always have people around to motivate us so we need to motivate ourselves. We can't guarantee that an emergency will happen on our allocated exercise days so we need to moderate our training to still be effective between dedicated training sessions. We may not have strong people with us when we are old, so we still need to be strong then.
What you seem to be advocating here is to lead a life in isolation, and to train yourself to not be dependent on anyone else for anything at all, period! But I'd like to remind you that man is a social animal - you cannot completely be independent of other human beings or of society to train yourself to lead the sort of life that you are imagining.

Quote
Almost all of the fitness research that has been carried out has been done from the perspective of competition. The vast majority has been targeted at improving peak performance with respect to specific goals, because in the competitive world that is all that matters. There are standard measurements by which everyone in these activities measures success and people are driven to improve in those ways. To lift more weight, to run faster and longer, to jump further and higher. These are how most people think success should be measured, and these are the kinds of assumptions made by most training principles and coaches.
Whereas I wholeheartedly agree with what you said here, and I too feel that a lot of modern physical training seems too mechanical and robotic and specific-results-oriented and non-lasting to me, but what you describe in that paragraph above (the para I quoted first in my post) is also bordering on leading a mechanical life on the other end of the spectrum. By trying to become completely self-sufficient, and training to be at the top of all things at all times, are you not taking away from the unpredictability of human life by this? Because to me, that unpredictable nature of life is what life is all about, you take that away - if you are always prepared for every situation and every emergency every living moment of your life, then you won't ever get sick, you won't ever die - it isn't living, it is more like a mechanised existence. It takes away from the duality of nature.

Quote
The limitations that other activities accept, such as being weak in old age, requiring external motivation, needing to rest for a day after effective training, injuries being part of life, don't exist in parkour.
I'm afraid you're simply being unrealistic here, you're living in a fantasy world that the meaning of the word parkour seems to have conjured up for you. You simply do not understand how the human body or the mind works.

To break it up for you -
such as being weak in old age,
My friend always likes to say - "Everything comes with an expiry date". Old age is an inevitable part of nature, by trying to defy it or prevent its onset, you are only trying to fight the laws of nature.

requiring external motivation,
Again, this is not how the human mind works, not everyone in this world is capable of self-motivation. There are very few people in this world that are, everyone else needs someone else to help push them.

needing to rest for a day after effective training,
You need to read up a bit more on the subject of physical fitness that you seem to hate so much, and learn a bit more about how the body works to understand that what you state is physically impossible. If the body is deprived of its much-required rest and recuperation, you will only end up destroying it rather than train it to become stronger and more adaptive.

injuries being part of life,
This is again, a part of nature - you cannot completely stay injury-free all your life. Even Superman and Hercules get injured. Not trying to get into a religious discussion here, but only a theoretical all-powerful being would be capable of being completely injury-free his/her entire existence. All living beings are made of fragile materials - your skin and bones were not originally intended to be indestructible by design. You don't want to train to turn yourself into a T-1000 or worse (from the Terminator 2 movie).


Believe me, you do not want the world to be full of highly-performing, highly efficient robotic individuals who do not get sick, who do not get tired, who do not get bored, who do not get demotivated, who do not need to take a break, etc.
Watch this movie, some food for thought:
Equilibrium
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 09:12:02 PM by NOS - from Parkour Mumbai »

Offline Dan Iaboni

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2010, 01:33:15 PM »
DaveS... I haven't talked to you for a while but I see you are still living in Neverland...

Where is proof/examples/anything from your BPCA that this mindset you have has worked?
It's the only way to back what you say in my opinion, because otherwise, what you say has no real foundation or merit at all and people here will continue disproving you as you have nothing to back up anything you say.

Your optimism for humanity is great, but unfortunately it doesn't get us far in a topic like this.


......
This is also a great opportunity to say crossfit for parkour...., and ill quote mr gibbons up there, is [somewhat akin to a man falling in love with another man]! And so are diving elephant pushups and sliding monkeys and all the stuff pkgens makes you do too. Oh those knee cruncher things that are going to give everyone bad knees, and squatting at a wall for an hour... ya those are [much like when a beautiful woman becomes enamored by another beautiful woman] too. But hey im Canadian right? I can say [extraordinarily happy all of the time] all I want.

dan
www.themonkeyvault.com

[Canadians, while they may be our superiors in many respects, are not above our rules. Sorry Danno! :)]
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 07:30:35 AM by Zachary Cohn »

Offline David Jones

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2010, 03:25:02 PM »
Now that was awesome. Props to Danno, surprised to see you on here!

Offline BaptizedByFire

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2010, 08:14:17 PM »
That is the problem with your argument, because parkour is simply not the same as any other activity.
It's not competitive, it doesn't have specific or finite goals. What it has is a single clear purpose, to get past any and every obstacle you encounter throughout your whole life, which is unique.
The limitations that other activities accept, such as being weak in old age, requiring external motivation, needing to rest for a day after effective training, injuries being part of life, don't exist in parkour...

Parkour is not competitive... because it recognises that our lives are unique and unpredictable and any practical real-world task will require many strengths...

Fitness experts are not experts on parkour, because parkour involves an entirely new purpose. It has a completely different direction, and the assumptions about people's goals that traditional fitness instructors make simply do not hold because of this.

Just look at military training. Marines are trained to withstand the rigors of combat on both the body and mind, and you'd be hard pressed to find any harsher environment. This is the type of situation you're training and living for, is it not? A completely unpredictable situation in which your wits must reach a happy medium with your flight instinct?

My chances of survival are directly proportional to my physical fitness. If my hands start to shake after I sprint for 50m, I can't be surgically accurate with my weapon. If I'm that out of shape, I'm breathing heavily and my vision is probably getting blurred or tunnel visioned from 2 things: bloodrush from the sudden desperate dash, and adrenaline.

When we work out, we are conditioning to maintain a clear mind while in the peak operating conditions of the human body, which is measured by a heart rate in the neighborhood of 150-170bpm. When your heartrate is in this yellow-zone, your heart is working efficiently= your muscles and brain are getting a healthy supply of blood/oxygen. In a very stressful situation, a well-conditioned frontline infantryman can sustain a heartrate of up to 210bpm... for a few minuets. This is a kind of organic overdrive where a dense burst of adrenaline is emptied into the blood stream- a sort of last ditch effort to either overcome or escape before the crash. Nobody can operate like this forever; you're chasing a state of mind that isn't necessary to be in all the time in your day to day life.

I had to realize this myself when i came home from my first deployment.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2010, 09:00:30 PM »
Baptized - have you read "Sharpening the Warriors Edge: The Psychology & Science of Training<img src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=americanparko-20&l=as2&o=1&a=0964920506" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="" style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" />"? It's got some very good info on exactly what you're talking about.

I think it would also be a great help for anyone interested as it scientifically approaches the importance of mental vs physical training.

Ha! Science :P
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Offline BaptizedByFire

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Re: PKGen's ADAPT Certification Officially Begins
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2010, 09:42:52 PM »
Actually most of my philosophy on training and fighting comes from two books by Lt. Col Dave Grossman, On Killing and On Combat. Mostly the latter. I've seen him speak in person about a warrior's mindset and ethos- great stuff.

You've peaked my interest, though; always good to get another perspective.