Author Topic: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial  (Read 4312 times)

Offline Andy Animus Tran

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PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« on: June 28, 2006, 02:36:35 PM »
http://www.pkto.ca/videos/90DegreeLandingTutorial.wmv (Right-click and save target as)

A very good tutorial from Jonny of PKTO.  I know myself and Bryan have been bitching about how we need to really work on our rolls, so this is good to watch.
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Offline FreeStyleFox

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2006, 03:30:37 PM »
good find!
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2006, 06:30:44 AM »
Well, frankly there are a re few things I would comment on.

1. much of the "knee bending" is situational, if they prefaced "these are for running or moving landings" it would clear it up. The technique is different for dropping say form a balcony from a turnvault where you need to drop straight down. Basically no move will always be right, and I think this video should say that.

2. The way they are landing and so purposely NOT bending their knees is putitng a lot of strain on their lower backs. Bending your knees past 90 degrees is NOT horrible, it's a matter of flexibility and training. I wouldn't want to be their lower backs after a day of taking all the shock by folding their upper body at the waist. Knees are meant to be shock abosorbers (or at least part if the kinetic chain). Looking at Danno's last landing it's almost comical how much he "doesn't bend" his knees, coming off a 2 foot block onto a sprung floor, yet his hands hit the ground, and all his momentum is so far forward he looks like he's falling forward.

synopsis: the information is at least 1/2 right at least 1/2 the time.
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Offline Ryan Ford

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2006, 09:51:43 AM »
also it should be added that bending your legs past 90 degrees isnt a rule. it is a guideline but could be better stated as "dont allow your knees to bend past 90 degrees with a lot of force". if they go past 90 with a lot of resistance and control from your muscles, its not neccesarily a bad thing.

Offline Valigon

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2006, 10:25:42 AM »
very helpful, after watching this i now know what is causing me to lose forword momentum on my rolls. thnx to all the guys at PKTO for putting this out.

Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2006, 01:19:05 PM »
I think the fact that they talk about how that landing procedure maintains foward momentum and the fact that Jonny says, "bend past 90 in a precisionw hen you want to come to a full stop" does imply that a straight drop would require a different technique.  It would have been better to say so, yes...  But there aren't really many occasions where you want a straight drop.  I mean, even when you do a straight drop, the idea is to get back up and move forward,  yes?  With that "falling forward" position, the second you push yourself off with your hands, your momentum is redirected forward (and upward so you can get back onto your feet) so that you can run.  I think the idea was that the only time you want to completely stop your body momentum is in a precision where it's extremely beneficial to.

And Demon:  I do think most people are aware of this, too, but again, it would have been beneficial to point out.
Andy Tran, C.S.C.S.
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Gearsighted

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knees to 90...
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2006, 02:06:38 PM »
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1023821

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/27/6020.html

From Christian Thibadeau in THIS THREAD:


Another money lift is the full squat. A lot of athletes and coaches shy away from full squatting, instead using shallow one-fourth squats. This is solely motivated by ego ?wanting to lift more weight to impress others. They justify their method by saying that full squats are bad for the knees. As most T-mag readers already know, this is hogwash!

In case you need some ammo defending full squats to the ego-squatters, here's why they're actually safer than partial squats:

* The deceleration path is longer during the full squat. Thus the deceleration is slower during the full squat. The faster the deceleration, the greater the risk of injury.

* It's been established that the most unstable knee angle is 90 degrees. Does it make sense to stop (in a rapid manner) and change direction at the most unstable knee angle? It makes about as much sense as hitting the breaks of your car and trying for a 180 degrees turn as you hit a patch of ice! (For most of you, a squat where your knee angle is 90 degrees equates to about a 1/4 squat.)

* Full squatting can actually strengthen the tendons of the knees, making the articulation more stable.

* Full squatting leads to balanced lower body development, while shallow squatting can lead to quad dominance which is the cause of many injuries.

* In the shallow squat you use more weight (that's why it's an ego lift). If you can't full squat a weight, you have no business quarter-squatting it! Your structures (bones, tendons, ligaments) aren't well adapted enough to sustain the load and you risk injury.

* Full back squats can make more difference in sport performance than any other exercise. Notice that I advocate a close-stance full squat with an upright trunk. This is the only way an athlete should squat.

*****

I would also add that full squats develop active flexibility as well as strength through the whole range oof motion. Which will reduce the risk on injuries.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 02:17:21 PM by gear »

Offline The Manilla Gorilla

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2006, 02:37:18 PM »
im so confused, but at least i am confused with a plethora of information.

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2006, 03:03:37 PM »
That's the best way to be :D

I'm glad people are finally coming out with some semi-helpful info...when I first starte there was NOTHING. Needless to say, the 90 degree "rule" will be in argument forever. All I can say is this, we are meant to move through a full range of motion. If a drop is such that you will injure yourself moving through your knee's natural range...perhaps it's too big for your skill level.

Offline Valigon

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2006, 08:37:57 AM »
though it is true, that when your bend your knee past a certain point (docs actualy say 90 degress) if can injure your knee. however thats only because people dont tend to bend there knees past 90 degrees to much, (other then sitting, but then theres not a load on it. though im sure that with training you could build up your knees resistence to damage when you bend them to far.

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2006, 08:28:32 AM »
One thing that's a good point in Gear's post about the knee being weakest at 90 degrees is this: buy purposely stopping your knees at 90 degrees you may be doing more harm than good.

Recent injury prevention information stated that (especially in women where ACL injuries are 50% more prevalent): the problem is from trying to hold yourself back from the bend by firing the quads before the glutes and hamstrings. This means that all the "stopping force" people are trying to put into a landing and NOT go past 90 degrees may actually lead to more injury than there would be by learning to fire your glutes and your hamstrings first, not putting all the stress directly on your knee by firing your quads and trying to stop at any prescribed angle.


 
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Offline FreeStyleFox

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2006, 10:29:34 AM »
 :-\ I am so lost.  Any rule of thumb here.  Or is this just like if you do this this will happen and if you dont this will happen bad situation eather way.  :-\
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Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2006, 07:37:04 PM »
One thing that's a good point in Gear's post about the knee being weakest at 90 degrees is this: buy purposely stopping your knees at 90 degrees you may be doing more harm than good.

Recent injury prevention information stated that (especially in women where ACL injuries are 50% more prevalent): the problem is from trying to hold yourself back from the bend by firing the quads before the glutes and hamstrings. This means that all the "stopping force" people are trying to put into a landing and NOT go past 90 degrees may actually lead to more injury than there would be by learning to fire your glutes and your hamstrings first, not putting all the stress directly on your knee by firing your quads and trying to stop at any prescribed angle.


 

That only makes logical sense from a straight drop, though.
Andy Tran, C.S.C.S.
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Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2006, 07:46:26 AM »
I like gears post because I've always done my squats full.

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2006, 03:26:46 PM »
Quote
That only makes logical sense from a straight drop, though.

I think that's the point...It's been a while since I posted here. The entire idea is that there is no one way to do anything in Parkour, just some basic guidelines. I don't think I can count "never bend your knee past 90 degrees" as one of these guidelines, as there are more instances and reasons NOT to follow this than reasons TO follow it.

If my reply doesn't make sense in relation to what I said 3 months ago, forgive me...I'll have to reread :p

Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2006, 03:30:33 PM »
Quote
That only makes logical sense from a straight drop, though.

I think that's the point...It's been a while since I posted here. The entire idea is that there is no one way to do anything in Parkour, just some basic guidelines. I don't think I can count "never bend your knee past 90 degrees" as one of these guidelines, as there are more instances and reasons NOT to follow this than reasons TO follow it.

If my reply doesn't make sense in relation to what I said 3 months ago, forgive me...I'll have to reread :p

Yeah, the "never" was a little bit of gun-jumping and those at PKTO have ceded to the fact that it only applies when you're trying to maintain forward momentum.
Andy Tran, C.S.C.S.
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Re: PKTO LAnd/roll tutorial
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2006, 04:39:14 PM »
Word  ;D