Author Topic: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.  (Read 23684 times)

Offline Andy Keller

  • Oh baby baby.
  • Administrator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Karma: +9012/-9006
  • Lancaster, PA
    • View Profile
    • My Facebook
Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #100 on: October 11, 2009, 06:00:03 AM »
Alec ... we might have even already opened a chain of training centers and put pout a tutorial DVD and the largest collection of free tutorials and the best place to learn for beginners :P


I think he meant mention that on the show, not just do it in real life.
"Do it, do it well, do it well and fast."

Offline Everett McClain

  • Patas
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
  • Karma: +14/-18
  • Ghost
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2009, 06:32:37 PM »
Yes, they will be competing and in fact they will need to want to win if it will be a successful show - can you imagine if pro football players were interviewed before the game and said "I don't really care who wins I just want to do my best"  - that wouldn't fly

Okay, Really? I shouldn't have to point out the flaw in that statement.

As for the definition of parkour, that is AmericanParkour's definition. As Mark already pointed out, Parkour is a community discipline, the sole definition of APK is not the definition of Parkour. It would be an unintelligent to believe so.

Just because APK says nothing about competition doesn't mean that competition is a none issue. Obviously competition is an issue, shown throughout this thread. Therefor, making a decision on this, is not a good idea. I am not saying you can't do it, because obviously no one has any say in whether or not competition can or cant be involved.

What if someone told you That santa only had six reindeer? or that the you weren't allowed to throw faster then 80 miles in baseball, so that more people could play and hit balls.

Taking an aspect out of an everyday thing is world shaking, hence why we have such heated arguments, Taking an official step towards setting it in stone is like taking away our right to believe that its not competitive.
Plus you will be sending in a wave of traceurs with different beliefs then us.
The line between Pro and Con competition traceurs is pretty significant, but is it necessary to make it even bigger?
"Everyday Men and Women are the World are seen Climbing Scaffolding and Jumping off Walls.

For Them The City Is A Gaint Jungle Gym And Recess Lasts Forever." - New York Parkour ~ Physical Graffiti



Proud to still be a kid out the

Offline Alissa J. Bratz

  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 2300
  • Karma: +525/-42
  • middle-aged man in mom's basement eating Fritos
    • View Profile
    • wisconsinparkour.com
Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2009, 08:21:24 PM »
I admit, I skimmed most of this thread.

Bearing that in mind, I just have these thoughts to share:

1. I respectfully disagree, Mark, that without competition or risk/reward, parkour will not gain a foothold in broader society/reach critical mass/have mass appeal. There are *many* disciplines out there that are not strictly competitive, that have massive, global appeal and centuries-old longevity (ballet/dance, yoga, juggling, music, etc.) Yes, football would be lame if before the big game the quarterback just said, "Oh, I just hope we do our best, I don't care if we win or lose." But equally ridiculous would be if a ballerina said before a performance, "I hope I kick the crap outta those fouettes en tournant!" and then scratched her groin. :P

2. Having said that... all of the above-mentioned disciplines DO have competitions, they are just not as central to the discipline as they would be in say, football. In other words, competition is an OPTIONAL thing in those disciplines that people can choose to do but many do not. Competition is everywhere. Competition in the above-mentioned disciplines has not hurt them one bit. And honestly, how many people can say they first heard about ballet by watching a competition? Practically no one. Same for yoga and juggling and all those other "fringe" or artistic disciplines. So the argument that competition specifically is going to bring parkour to a wider audience doesn't fly with me.

3. Having said that... all of the above-mentioned disciplines ARE driven by profit, big business, etc, despite their non-competitive nature. Even ballet, which is primarily (sadly) in the non-profit sector in the US, still depends mightily on ticket sales, corporate donations, etc. to survive. Ticket sales only account for about half of a ballet company's budget. A pair of pointe shoes costs about $70, and a typical professional dancer goes through a pair a month, or more. She goes through one to two pairs per performance during a performance run. So even the "altruistic" and "non-competitive" disciplines still have to bow to the system of the dollar to even survive, not to mention grow/thrive. It's the world we live in.

4. So it would seem that competition is a separate issue from the commercialization thing. I am not against competition in parkour, strictly speaking. I personally don't see it as relevant to my training, or to parkour training in general, but I can respect that there are people out there for whom it is important, and I strongly believe that those of us who care about parkour can and should be involved in the development of competitions so that they are designed to help the art not hurt it. Same for commercialization, which IMO *must* happen for parkour to survive. Hell, my parkour club at the high school where I teach charges dues, simply because we need stuff like trash bags for our Leave No Trace activities.

5. Regarding commercialization: I know and trust that Mark is a person dedicated to the idea of being very present and involved in shaping parkour. He is passionate about it and will shape it into what he thinks is best for it. It may be different than what others think is best for it. That's how it is in every discipline. There are ballet studios out there that train dancers ONLY for competition and nothing else. In my personal view they are missing the point, but they do turn out some very technically proficient dancers, and ballet is not withering on the vine because of it. I also know firsthand that Mark is a shrewd businessman and is not likely to go into a contract with a media company that will be detrimental to his business and to parkour. I also know that Mark is pretty much a pioneer in this regard--how many of us would feel comfortable going into a contract with a major media company, and be "The Voice" for all of parkour in the US, shaping a show/competition that until now has never existed in the universe? So it's to be expected that he's not going to have all the answers, he may make mistakes, and there will likely be unforeseen consequences. Bear that in mind when you consider what it is that is happening here. He's coming to the community, he's listening, he's considering our viewpoints. Does that make him a warm fuzzie nice guy? Sure, but he also has his principles and his own ideals and vision for parkour at work here, which he will naturally strive to put forth. That's what businessmen do. If they didn't nothing would happen.

The cool part is, parkour is big enough for all of us. It's big enough for Mark to have his media thing going on, and for Tyson to have his non-profit thing going on, and everything in between, and none of that will damage or harm parkour. We all had the wrong idea about parkour when we first started. Honestly. Unless you were first exposed to it by being David Belle's neighbor when he was first starting out, and then training with him from day one, you had the wrong idea. You saw it on YouTube or in a movie, or heard about it from a friend, or whatever. You didn't get the right idea until you started digging into it and training. And even then, it takes years and years to develop "the right idea" about parkour. Having one more or less parkour show in the world isn't going to change that. People come by parkour now with inaccurate, misguided, and "wrong" ideas about it. For Pete's sake, I'm a teacher and I do a parkour unit in my classroom at school, and I still get kids asking me if I jump off of roofs, even without Mark's Big Evil Parkour Media Blitz Of Doom.  ::)  :-Sarcasm

Everett, if I told you Santa had only six reindeer, or that the sky was green, would you stop believing what you believe simply because I said otherwise? I didn't think so. Claiming that any kind of change to parkour as you know it and understand it will result in "sending in a wave of traceurs with different beliefs than us" is pretty insulting to any new traceur out there, first of all, because it assumes they are too stupid to figure out parkour on their own through their own training (like we all had to do), and secondly it's pretty presumptuous on your part to assume that "we" all have the same beliefs (and furthermore that those beliefs are somehow inherently right). Clearly we don't all have the same beliefs, as this thread indicates. Every traceur in the world has differing beliefs on all sorts of things, from competition to who is the 'best' traceur to what is the best kind of shoe to wear. No one is taking away your right to believe anything. No one can take away your right to believe anything. Having a competition does not eliminate your right to believe that competition is wrong. Not having competitions does not take away someone else's right to believe that competition is okay. Settle down, my friend. :)

This got longer than I wanted. Ugh. But to bring it back to something resembling on-topic...

I trust Mark's judgment with regard to parkour in general, however I don't trust it blindly (and I think he would dislike it if any of us did). The nice thing is, he's asking for our input, so here's mine: It's a question of timing the opportunity appropriately. I do agree with Joe in the sense that there needs to be some time for parkour to develop in the public perception as a non-profit/community beneficial type thing. Like when people think "football" they think of a big business competitive sport (even though there are casual leagues all over the place this is what people first think of), and when they think "yoga" they think of a discipline that is a business (i.e. you have to pay for classes, gear, etc.) but that has a lot of warm fuzzie community benefits--there are yoga programs in schools, etc. Right now the public still has a very vague, incomplete perception of parkour; we need to let that germinate a bit more organically for a while. I don't think we're at critical mass yet where something like this that comes across as being endorsed by the authoritative voice will not deeply impact the general public's perception of parkour. Right now we're at a point where there are more positive, well-informed media articles about parkour than not (which was not the case even two years ago), so that's good. But still those stories are really sporadic given the vast geographic expanse. A great feature on WI parkour is not even going to be seen by someone in Atlanta, say, unless they come here, and they'd be coming here only because they already know a little about parkour. So the number of positive/accurate media coverage is going up, but it's still not cohesive. I think we need to wait until there is more cohesion in the public perception, so they are coming to the show with some context.

It's like when you teach reading; if you give a kid Huck Finn without talking about the historical context, and they see all these instances of the "N-word" all over, it's going to freak them out, give them the wrong idea, etc. You have to prepare them with a context first so they can categorize what they're seeing. I understand the show to serve that purpose, but I think we still need to wait until there is at least a cohesive, foundational-level understanding among the general public. It doesn't even have to be that detailed, but just so that non-traceurs from most geographic areas can have more or less the same vague notion: a physical discipline, overcoming obstacles, not an extreme sport, not practiced by hooligans; say.

Just my thoughts; I understand also that these kinds of deals can take time to gel, so perhaps by the time it is ready for roll-out the public will be ready for it.

You asked for our thoughts... I decided to vomit them all over this post.

Man I am sleep-deprived. I hope this thing makes sense in the morning. :)


She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
--excerpt from Going Blind, Rainer Maria Rilke

www.madisonparkour.com

Offline Andy Keller

  • Oh baby baby.
  • Administrator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Karma: +9012/-9006
  • Lancaster, PA
    • View Profile
    • My Facebook
Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2009, 06:09:16 AM »
Thanks Muse! I think your post summed up a lot of the views presented in this thread. I'm glad you put APK before sleep... ;)
"Do it, do it well, do it well and fast."

Offline Jim "Monkey" Parker

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 481
  • Karma: +24/-4
  • I am a leaf on the wind...Watch how I soar...
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2009, 09:00:20 AM »
But equally ridiculous would be if a ballerina said before a performance, "I hope I kick the crap outta those fouettes en tournant!" and then scratched her groin. :P

Thanks for the belly laugh Muse!!! Hilarious!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step
-Japanese Proverb

Offline John Conway

  • Mangabey
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
  • Karma: +36/-5
  • John Conway
    • View Profile
    • CouchSurfer
Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #105 on: October 14, 2009, 08:00:34 AM »
I'm glad you put APK before sleep... ;)

Thank you for posting Muse.