Author Topic: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.  (Read 22834 times)

Offline Spencer B

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2009, 05:27:04 PM »
winner gets a chocolate bar  ;D

Yes. If you're going to make it a competition, make the prize ridiculously mundane so everybody realises the competition isn't serious. It's perfect!  ;D :D
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Offline Everett McClain

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2009, 05:31:31 PM »
winner gets a chocolate bar  ;D

Yes. If you're going to make it a competition, make the prize ridiculously mundane so everybody realises the competition isn't serious. It's perfect!  ;D :D
If there must be a "competitive format," let it follow this example.  No rankings.  No opposition.  No better.  No first/second/third.  No being bumped because someone else was faster or flashier.  Just the practitioner and the course.  Succeed or fail.  If several people succeed, they are all celebrated equally.  If no one does, so be it.


Ah-ha

Finally something Pro-competition that I like.

I think this would be perfect. Winning would be a personal victory (just like its supposed to be in parkour) and the prize would show how none agressive

Though I vote for a pinata for the winner
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Offline Fyrel

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2009, 06:44:17 PM »
winner gets a chocolate bar  ;D

Yes. If you're going to make it a competition, make the prize ridiculously mundane so everybody realises the competition isn't serious. It's perfect!  ;D :D
If there must be a "competitive format," let it follow this example.  No rankings.  No opposition.  No better.  No first/second/third.  No being bumped because someone else was faster or flashier.  Just the practitioner and the course.  Succeed or fail.  If several people succeed, they are all celebrated equally.  If no one does, so be it.


Ah-ha

Finally something Pro-competition that I like.

I think this would be perfect. Winning would be a personal victory (just like its supposed to be in parkour) and the prize would show how none agressive

Though I vote for a pinata for the winner

Agreed; this would be much better than something with rankings. Also, in response to some of the other "competition already exists in parkour" posts, that's very true.....however, it's a different type of competition. It's not so much about doing better than the other guy as being able to achieve it yourself. It's more of a "monkey see, monkey do" sort of competition, not people constantly trying to do better than one another. More of a "I wonder if I can do that" sort of thought process, and which is usually supported by the other person, who would help you achieve it. IMO it's a much different sort of competition. If it's necessary though, the non ranking version is something I could definitely go for.

Offline Sparklefish

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2009, 09:11:49 PM »
As the decision has apparently been made, please consider that the one "competition" that does not inflame frequent argument among practitioners is Sasuke (Ninja Warrior), which is not, strictly speaking, an actual competition, but rather a challenge.  If there must be a "competitive format," let it follow this example.  No rankings.  No opposition.  No better.  No first/second/third.  No being bumped because someone else was faster or flashier.  Just the practitioner and the course.  Succeed or fail.  If several people succeed, they are all celebrated equally.  If no one does, so be it.

I'd like to add my support of this sentiment to the record.  I think Ninja Warrior is a fine example of a great competitive model.  However, I also realize how much fun it is to see Levi bust a front full, or Adrian string together precision front flips.  I'd encourage you guys to look at Ninja Warrior as the best competitive format and Barclaycard as the worst.  I'd like to see a competition that emphasized longer timed runs over style points for trickier moves.  Perhaps there's a unique way to provide opportunities for both in the same format.

Also, I just wanted to say thanks Mark for actually reading this. 

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2009, 09:24:51 PM »
Joseph,
I'm really sorry, but I'm not playing your game. You wrote 5 paragraphs of suppositions, even stated that perhaps I told people what to write, and then ask "innocent questions" which deserve answers? I'm sorry, but no. You are showing your ability to presume, and twist things way out of proportion, I won't fuel that fire.

You will notice that several people have raised points which have been addressed, maybe their approach was different?

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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2009, 09:31:27 PM »
Brett,
We are working to incorporate several aspects that showcase what could be considered "core parkour skills" and "freerunning skills" without mixing or misrepresenting either - obviously there are challenges that we have to deal with. I agree that the competition formats that are out there pave the way for things which the parkour community can be proud of - by taking what is out there and improving upon it, in some cases drastically :)  Hopefully we can take the lessons learned from these (some of them pretty obvious) and incorporate them into something that the parkour and freerunning communities will be proud to stand behind. Of course whatever we do won't be exactly as each individual will wish, but having the support of the existing parkour community is something we care about, we want the participating athletes and other traceurs and freerunners to be proud of the events. Of course some people who are simply against any form of competition probably won't be pleased no matter what we do, and I'm not sure we can do anything about that. What we will be doing is our best to uphold APK's mission and values, so hopefully even the people against competition can support those things. - Thanks again for your input, it is heard and will be passed to the production company and all parties as well. You can be sure they are watching these threads as they have a very vested interest in making this go well for everyone :)
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Offline Sparklefish

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2009, 11:11:11 PM »
Thanks again Mark.  I like to think of myself as a skeptical moderate.  Knowing you guys, I trust you'll do a good job.  You have a good eye for talent Mark, and I've been very impressed by the people you surround yourself with.  I'm definitely hoping this partnership is a success for APK and parkour in general.

Offline Everett McClain

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2009, 09:18:43 AM »
Of course some people who are simply against any form of competition probably won't be pleased no matter what we do, and I'm not sure we can do anything about that. What we will be doing is our best to uphold APK's mission and values, so hopefully even the people against competition can support those things.

Should the values of APK and Parkour/Freerunning be exactly, if not close to the same?

I believe what the people who are against the competition truly are against isn't the competition itself

It's that, while learning the art, we always knew it as a non-competitive sport. All of a sudden, this is changing.

Also, on my part, I think that a "League" with points and Traceurs competing against one another. Would be the incorrect way to go about it.

However, The already discussed "Ninja Warrior" Type competition (I believe) will worl excessively well. This is because:
traceurs wont be competing against each other, they will be competing against themselves and the course
The course can be set up, not only to be difficult, but to have multiple paths. This way a maximum amount of creativity can be shown
There will be no rivalries. Always a plus because neither art is about disliking one another
and I still like the of a mundane prize. like a snickers bar

I think with that kind of competition will give you the maximum response from fans, and would be the most accepted in the parkour community
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Offline Cameron Scott

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2009, 10:42:04 AM »
I think both Beretta and Fletcher's posts capture my sentiments the best.  There is a middle road and I trust APK is trying to find it.  I don't trust large media types as the bottom line will always trump everything else in the end, but as long as APK can control that inevitable push and trusts those they are working with now I am mostly happy.

Ninja Warrior format would be awesome.

I'll also say that having learned parkour at Primal I know that Travis and others (who I've met more briefly) are concerned with safety, proper progression, and minimizing showboating.  Their attitudes, at least as I have observed them, are in line with the philosophies and attitudes I've observed on these forums.  Respect, inclusiveness, and striving to be your best are what they're about and that gives me a huge level of comfort.

I'm not sold on the idea that competition is necessary for parkour to come to the public eye.  I think you can grow too fast, as Fletcher's post pointed out, and this is a significant worry of mine.  However, I respect Mark's opinion that is contrary to that because I respect Mark's motivations and what I think his intent is.  I may or may not agree with him when all is said and done, but I'll certainly still have a lot of respect for him.

If I think of any actual suggestions I'll post them, but I thought there was enough tension on this thread that I wanted to join the others who have expressed a moderate opinion. 

Offline Travis Graves

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2009, 12:21:47 PM »


I'll also say that having learned parkour at Primal I know that Travis and others (who I've met more briefly) are concerned with safety, proper progression, and minimizing showboating.  Their attitudes, at least as I have observed them, are in line with the philosophies and attitudes I've observed on these forums.  Respect, inclusiveness, and striving to be your best are what they're about and that gives me a huge level of comfort.

Cameron, were you listening to anything I said in class? I've said a million times parkour is about being better than others and making as much money as possible.  :-Sarcasm
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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2009, 12:31:21 PM »
The parkour community is faced with new challenges every single day.  Since parkour is extremely important to me and I don’t want to ignore these, I must address them somehow.  So what do I do?  In the time I devote to parkour, instead of spending it arguing, protesting and boycotting, I choose to spend it positively and constructively.
 
While personally I don't support competitions or commercial exploitation, I acknowledge the fact that others have different ideas, values, morals, points of reference and goals, and while I wish those involved in those activities chose a different route, I respect their freedom as individual traceurs.  I ask them simply to remember what parkour really means to them at its core and stay true to that, and to continue to respect what it means to others.  My goal is to lead or help lead everyone in the wonderful, life-changing journey that is parkour.  Including everyone means you need to follow a wider path, instead of taking a select few down a narrower path and excluding all others.  For those that choose a different route, in our journeys I hope our paths will cross, and often.

In my journey, I will free my mind, body and spirit from the boundaries others try and impose.  I will overcome obstacles and limits, not create them.  I will keep my mind open, and never stop learning and evolving.  I will train to always be strong, and always be useful.  I will train to improve, not simply to entertain.  I will be an active part of the parkour community.  I will build myself up, and also try to inspire and build up others, as well as my local community, and nearby communities, and communities in other states all across America, and beyond.  I will train hard, and safely, using controlled progression, learning from everything and everyone I can, exploring as much as I can, and sharing all my learnings freely with anyone who asks.  And I will always have fun.

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Offline Cameron Scott

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2009, 01:53:35 PM »


I'll also say that having learned parkour at Primal I know that Travis and others (who I've met more briefly) are concerned with safety, proper progression, and minimizing showboating.  Their attitudes, at least as I have observed them, are in line with the philosophies and attitudes I've observed on these forums.  Respect, inclusiveness, and striving to be your best are what they're about and that gives me a huge level of comfort.

Cameron, were you listening to anything I said in class? I've said a million times parkour is about being better than others and making as much money as possible.  :-Sarcasm

Still working on it Travis.  :P 

Offline 2nd Chance

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2009, 03:08:47 PM »
To those who are against the idea of the partnership, I pose a question: are you against the idea of being represented in the media at all, or just against being represented badly?

Say there was a hypothetical tv show about parkour. It shows that parkour is a self discipline, demonstrates the leave no trace initiative, shows people training humbly and represents traceurs in a responsible way. Obviously this show would have to still appeal to a larger crowd, so bigger flashy moves are there, but are by absolutely no means the focus of the show. The big moves are shown at the fruit of labor, not as a crazy guy doing a trick.

There is another hypothetical show, only showing flash and danger. It's a big competition portraying traceurs as irresponsible thrill seekers.

The second option obviously sucks. But what about the first option? If a show represented traceurs as responsible and dedicated, and able to do big tricks because of that, would you be ok with that?

In my eyes, the problem for me is that of misrepresentation, not commercialization. I have no problem with a parkour tv show personally as long as it portrays traceurs as more than just "those crazy guys doing the crazy stuff". However, if it does show us as irresponsible and mere adrenaline junkies, that's when it gets a bit south of good.

Offline Spencer B

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2009, 03:31:26 PM »
To those who are against the idea of the partnership, I pose a question: are you against the idea of being represented in the media at all, or just against being represented badly?

Say there was a hypothetical tv show about parkour. It shows that parkour is a self discipline, demonstrates the leave no trace initiative, shows people training humbly and represents traceurs in a responsible way. Obviously this show would have to still appeal to a larger crowd, so bigger flashy moves are there, but are by absolutely no means the focus of the show. The big moves are shown at the fruit of labor, not as a crazy guy doing a trick.

There is another hypothetical show, only showing flash and danger. It's a big competition portraying traceurs as irresponsible thrill seekers.

The second option obviously sucks. But what about the first option? If a show represented traceurs as responsible and dedicated, and able to do big tricks because of that, would you be ok with that?

In my eyes, the problem for me is that of misrepresentation, not commercialization. I have no problem with a parkour tv show personally as long as it portrays traceurs as more than just "those crazy guys doing the crazy stuff". However, if it does show us as irresponsible and mere adrenaline junkies, that's when it gets a bit south of good.

I think this is the general sentiment of what has been stated in here. We're not against competition directly, per-say, but against what it always seems to entail.

Making it like a traditional competition would be a major mistake. However, having where anybody and everybody can technically win, like Ninja Warrior, would be very in-line with what I see as the ideals of PK; an individuals journey and path, cheered on by his fellows against the gnashing, gnarled teeth of the hell-spawn course, every once of grit, luck and willpower tested and drained until either the course or the man yields. A beautiful image don't you think?
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Offline Zachary Cohn

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2009, 06:10:12 PM »
I think this is the general sentiment of what has been stated in here. We're not against competition directly, per-say, but against what it always seems to entail.

And what I always argue is against that "always." I encourage you to look into rock climbing, juggling, and hot air ballooning competitions. These are three other "fringe sports" that have competitions that are anything but everything you fear.

You guys trust us (Tribe + Alliance). Most of you have met at least some of us. A good number of you know us personally, at least on some level. Have some faith that we're in this for the good of Parkour. We haven't screwed up yet, in fact look at all the positive things we've done.

What indication is there that we'll screw up this? We <3 you guys, we <3 parkour, and we <3 the idea that one day we can make enough money doing what we love to support ourselves and a family.

Offline John Conway

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2009, 06:31:12 PM »
I do support the Ninja Warrior format. It is the competing against another traceur/freerunner (because those are the same disciplines
and all of parkour in America needs to recognize that) that I am against. Why am I against it? Because this is the way the founders
had set up their discipline.

It seems to me that there is some disrespect for the founders in the community. Those who say why believe sometihng just because the
founders do? The answer is simple: because there minds were the 1st to be set free, so why not put all good judgement on what they say
and feel about the discipine that they created...yes THEIR discipline. It is their discipline, not EZ's and not M2's and not anyone else's.

The practice of Martial Arts is owned by no one, and neither is Parkour. However, the beginning of the Yamakasi marks the begining of
the discipline, the beginning of the words parkour/freerun/l'art du deplacement. We should not stray from one thing the founders teach,
direct, or change in their discipline. If we do not like it, then we must find something else or deal with what we do not like.

What I am getting at is that, M2, if you have not contacted the Majestic Force, Belle, Foucan, or any other founder (at least 1 founder)
and ask him for permission to run a competition, you should not have a competition. Not just you M2, but EZ as well.

And still no one has answered my question: which of the founders ever said that pk/fr/add were different and separatre from each other? No one. I
implore APK(.com) to change the message that pk and fr are different, and realize that in fact they are the same.

Regardless of that, competition in the ninja warrior format is a plus, and one that I highly support.
But a competition against another, let me just say this: can the so-called "champion" really tell himself, "Yea, I did better than them"?

Offline John Conway

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2009, 06:40:50 PM »
Another couple of things:

1. I most certainly know and believe full-heartedly that the Tribe and Alliance and M2 have the very best interests of
Parkour in their hearts, minds, and bodies. And I understand and support the idea of making parkour into something which can be made
a living off of. (Just not competition the Barclaycard style)

2. Come on people, smiting me does nothing to solve these problems. I've noticed my neg. karma going up,
while not one person has responded to anytihng I have said (I would not expect so though, pretty hard to
prove me wrong seeing as how I do not stray from what the foundes teach.)
These issues won't be going away just because you cannot answer my questions, I'll keep bringing them up
until it is realized that competition without the founders permission is invalid and void.

Offline Everett McClain

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2009, 07:23:09 PM »
Another couple of things:

1. I most certainly know and believe full-heartedly that the Tribe and Alliance and M2 have the very best interests of
Parkour in their hearts, minds, and bodies. And I understand and support the idea of making parkour into something which can be made
a living off of. (Just not competition the Barclaycard style)

2. Come on people, smiting me does nothing to solve these problems. I've noticed my neg. karma going up,
while not one person has responded to anytihng I have said (I would not expect so though, pretty hard to
prove me wrong seeing as how I do not stray from what the foundes teach.)
These issues won't be going away just because you cannot answer my questions, I'll keep bringing them up
until it is realized that competition without the founders permission is invalid and void.

+1
and will probably continue to +1 everytime i see this post.

Sometime people are cowards. I support both of your posts, I believe that getting in touch with it original practitioners is a MUST
I thought i saw one of the people who are on this project say they did that, but i could be wrong.
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Offline Burahobbit

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2009, 09:07:40 PM »

 The answer is simple: because there minds were the 1st to be set free, so why not put all good judgement on what they say
and feel about the discipine that they created...yes THEIR discipline. It is their discipline, not EZ's and not M2's and not anyone else's.

The practice of Martial Arts is owned by no one, and neither is Parkour.


Please tell me how this makes any sense at all? How can it be "THEIR" discipline while parkour is "owned" by no one. You go on arguing completely convinced you are right and hey maybe you are maybe you aren't it doesn't really matter to me but at least get your story straight first?

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2009, 09:55:55 PM »
Conway, I'm not ignoring you, but I do disagree. Please remember that "the founders" said there was no difference two years after a difference came about.

did David Belle say there was no difference? Sebastien Foucan clearly acknowledges that "Freerunning is his way" - he doesn't differentiate, but also doesn't necessarily subscribe to anyone else' definition of anything.

In either case, I see them as separate because they are now practiced as separate things, and there is no division between practitioners, people can practice one or both, and as much as people hate it, in my opinion a solid parkour foundation is a good start to freerunning - in the sense that if you can't vault a rail you have no business flipping over one, and if you don't have solid jumping, landing, and rolling techniques (all irrefutable skills of parkour) then you shouldn't be doing flips off anything.

If you agree that parkour is about efficiency moving over obstacles of some sort, then you have to acknowledge that "freedom to move however you want through a space" is different from that.

So, I have hopefully addressed your points - not an argument that I am trying to win, merely me sharing my opinion on the matters with you.

As for contacting them, I have to tell you that they let this go a long time ago. When I first searched for Parkour there were no English speaking websites, I made posts on French forums and was ignored (or worse).

the simple fact is I don't need their permission or anyone else's - I certainly didn't wait for their permission to make APK, and it has helped many people get into parkour. I didn't ask their permission to make a gym. APK is not any less useful for me not having asked them for permission, and in fact, it has stayed running when things like Parkour.net were shit down for lack of permission - which does more good??

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