Author Topic: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.  (Read 22835 times)

Offline John Conway

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2009, 05:10:06 AM »

 The answer is simple: because there minds were the 1st to be set free, so why not put all good judgement on what they say
and feel about the discipine that they created...yes THEIR discipline. It is their discipline, not EZ's and not M2's and not anyone else's.

The practice of Martial Arts is owned by no one, and neither is Parkour.


Please tell me how this makes any sense at all? How can it be "THEIR" discipline while parkour is "owned" by no one. You go on arguing completely convinced you are right and hey maybe you are maybe you aren't it doesn't really matter to me but at least get your story straight first?


I said the "practice" is owned by no one. The discipline belongs to them because they strarted it, they have the final say in issues such as competition.
You misread my comment.

Conway, I'm not ignoring you, but I do disagree. Please remember that "the founders" said there was no difference two years after a difference came about.

did David Belle say there was no difference? Sebastien Foucan clearly acknowledges that "Freerunning is his way" - he doesn't differentiate, but also doesn't necessarily subscribe to anyone else' definition of anything.

In either case, I see them as separate because they are now practiced as separate things, and there is no division between practitioners, people can practice one or both, and as much as people hate it, in my opinion a solid parkour foundation is a good start to freerunning - in the sense that if you can't vault a rail you have no business flipping over one, and if you don't have solid jumping, landing, and rolling techniques (all irrefutable skills of parkour) then you shouldn't be doing flips off anything.

If you agree that parkour is about efficiency moving over obstacles of some sort, then you have to acknowledge that "freedom to move however you want through a space" is different from that.

So, I have hopefully addressed your points - not an argument that I am trying to win, merely me sharing my opinion on the matters with you.

As for contacting them, I have to tell you that they let this go a long time ago. When I first searched for Parkour there were no English speaking websites, I made posts on French forums and was ignored (or worse).

the simple fact is I don't need their permission or anyone else's - I certainly didn't wait for their permission to make APK, and it has helped many people get into parkour. I didn't ask their permission to make a gym. APK is not any less useful for me not having asked them for permission, and in fact, it has stayed running when things like Parkour.net were shit down for lack of permission - which does more good??



That is why I trust your judgement. I feel the exaxct same way, that if one cannot vault a rail, they have no business flipping over one. I fear that that message right there will be lost on media coverage, that is the only tihng I fear. I do not fear loss of spirirt or values with competition, I fear that people will only look forward to flips, and that is not how it was in the beginning.

Really the way you explained it to me helped a lot.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 05:15:58 AM by NoRush »

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2009, 08:04:36 AM »
I'm glad it helped. I have no intention of letting something get to the media that misrepresents either discipline. I have no intention of letting something get out there that gets people involved in something dangerous which they are mislead to believe is our discipline. If there is anything in my track record which makes people feel that I might I'd certainly be open to discussing that.
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Offline Paul Leon Mederos

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2009, 09:40:36 AM »
On a side note, what is this karma you speak of NoRush  :P
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Offline Everett McClain

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2009, 09:48:29 AM »
On a side note, what is this karma you speak of NoRush  :P

Whoa O.O
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Offline Zachary Cohn

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2009, 09:50:50 AM »
On a side note, what is this karma you speak of NoRush  :P

Yeah what karma leon?

Offline Mike Patella

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2009, 10:21:13 AM »
In my opinion, a lot of practitioners are against change.  Parkour and freerunning are at a very unique stage.  They're recognized by a few people all over... but still not mainstream.  From my observations, the members of this forum that argue the most against competition and fear corruption of the philosophy, are the practitioners that train alone.  It's my feeling that they haven't experienced the community aspect of parkour firsthand, and therefore do not see the value of a more accessible and widespread "society" of traceurs.

I have the amazing luck of living in Baltimore, which has a small community... but also feeds into the massive DC community of traceurs.  I've met practitioners from all over the country (and some from abroad!) and my philosophy has completely changed since the beginning of the summer.  Parkour is about the community for me.  I have never been involved in something where I can travel to any point on the globe and meet people that are cool, share similar goals, and are more accepting.  I absolutely welcome the upcoming spotlight from this partnership, because that means even more cool people that I get to meet!

To those that think that the discipline will become "corrupted" by the media spotlight: open your eyes.  There are already "bad apples" in the community - as with any activity.  As the discipline expands, sure, more defaceurs (go go lexicon!) will spring up... it's a natural part of any group.  However, as more practice parkour, more people will come to respect, love, and live the discipline.  More good will come, as will more bad - it's simply a product of a larger community.

Now, you could argue the philosophy of parkour and freerunning all day - that doesn't change the fact that they are a single discipline.  What you train for is your own business.  I don't train to prepare myself for an emergency situation and I don't train to express myself through movement.  I practice the art of motion because I enjoy training and I enjoy meeting people that also enjoy training.  Also, I practice parkour movements because it helps keep me fit and motivates me to become more fit.  Now my reasons for training don't fit in with parkour OR freerunning... yet I still consider myself a traceur.  Am I not a part of the club because I don't prepare for an emergency?  (I've yet to meet someone who practices ONLY to be ready to save people.)

So, in order to give something for discussion.  Do you feel that parkour and freerunning are exclusively as outlined by their creators or do you feel that the global community at large has turned the art of movement into something bigger... yet more personal?

Offline Adam McC

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2009, 10:25:18 AM »
Mike, nice post.

I'm glad it helped. I have no intention of letting something get to the media that misrepresents either discipline. I have no intention of letting something get out there that gets people involved in something dangerous which they are mislead to believe is our discipline. If there is anything in my track record which makes people feel that I might I'd certainly be open to discussing that.

For clarification.. I think, Mark, that people absolutely do not question your intention of representing Parkour/Freerunning in the best way possible. I think they question how the media, outside of your control, will personify it... and how the reactions of the mass audience, which can we cannot control, will affect the art as we now know it.

However, following our philosophy, I see this as a wonderful opportunity that, while it may be a high leap, it must be tried and potentially failed to eventually achieve our goal. If anyone here knows anything, its that success does not come instantly, so we might as well get going with the effort. Gotta start up the mountain some time. Standing at the bottom of the mountain speculating how impossible it is and guessing at the risks involved in climbing it will get us nowhere.

Good luck to you and all the other people involved in this effort, and know that anytime you feel burdened with the responsibility, there is an entire community behind you willing to help in any way.

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Offline Joseph Torchia

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2009, 10:46:10 AM »
Joseph,
I'm really sorry, but I'm not playing your game. You wrote 5 paragraphs of suppositions, even stated that perhaps I told people what to write, and then ask "innocent questions" which deserve answers? I'm sorry, but no. You are showing your ability to presume, and twist things way out of proportion, I won't fuel that fire.

You will notice that several people have raised points which have been addressed, maybe their approach was different?

M2


Wow, that was a lot of venom Mark.  I’m sorry you feel that way.  I was trying to be very diplomatic, though I can understand how your personal distaste for me might negatively color my comments.  I thought we left that in the past.  In case it was never clear before, I apologize for any misunderstandings or any insult that I may have caused you.  It was never my intention and I hope that we can find ways to work together in the future.  However, this isn’t really the place for that discussion but, if at all possible, I hope that as you, and others who might have a suspicion of my words, read my posts that you do not let these preconceptions rule.  As I already said, I am not attacking anyone’s character or intentions.   I think that APK and members of the Tribe have the best of intentions. Those that I’ve had the opportunity to meet all seem like good guys.  And, as a little shout out, thanks for your kind email Skipper.

I felt that my questions were legitimate and certainly not subversive.   Any suppositions I made, I made only because of the lack of available information.  Had you taken the time to answer those questions in a constructive and forthwith manner Mark, I believe you would have removed the causes of those suppositions, which naturally come to mind when you analyze the press release.  I was trying to voice my own and some of the community’s concerns while providing APK with an avenue to address those concerns and the suppositions they were based on.  My intention was merely to add a constructive and reasoned voice to the conversation and to move away from the love/hate fest that was symptomatic of the comment thread.  I think that a comment thread is too limited and doesn’t allow one to provide narrative voice to their statements, which is one of the reasons I created this thread - to promote a reasoned and thoughtful discussion.  Thanks to the efforts and goodwill in this community I think that has largely been a success.

Mark, as for my “suspicion” that you might have told the members of the Tribe to write on the forum – I was commending you for good leadership.  If you were trying to produce a vigorous discussion on the forum, it seems to me that one of the best ways to do so would be to encourage the community leaders and the members of the Tribe to post up their thoughts to seed the forum with their ideas as a form of brainstorming.  It’s certainly something I would have done if I were in your position. It also resulted in some of the best ideas being put forward, Demon’s for example.  But judging from your defensive tone it appears you didn’t do that.  So, unfortunately, that only supports my pervious concern that more could/should have been by done APK to promote a full discussion before you moved ahead on the project. 

Anyway, now that I’ve gotten that out of the way, I hope I can add my thoughts to this discussion without anyone openly or implicitly attacking my motives or my character.  I’ve certainly have not intentionally done so and I wont do so in the future.   It important that we all maintain a compassionate view for our fellow human’s fallibility. I say this as much as a reminder to myself as to anyone else.  We all have made, make, and will continue to make mistakes.  As I mentioned to Skipper in my email to him, there is no reason why this discussion should not and cannot be a reasoned and constructive one, based on mutual respect and friendship.  If friendship is too much to ask for, then may empathy suffice.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 10:54:28 AM by Joseph Torchia »

Offline Joseph Torchia

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2009, 10:50:14 AM »
Mark, I must respectfully disagree with you statement that “without the competition, without the reward/risk factor, this is not going to make the public eye.”   There are many examples of programs that have contributed greatly to greater public knowledge of our discipline and were the inspiration for thousands of people around the world to begin training and yet did not include any competition.  Instead they focused on the beauty of the movement, the dedication of the practitioners, and the philosophy they guides and inspires the training. I refer to BBC’s “Rush Hour” commercial featuring David Belle, the documentaries: “Generation Yamakasi,” “Jump London,” and “Jump Britain.” In addition to these think of the hundreds of documentaries, art exhibits, and short films that have expanded the discipline to new audiences yet have focused on the intimate details, the stories, and not competition or flashy stunts and flips.  I think that Brett was one of the first to propose a personal/community focus for APK’s program, and I wholly support a move in this direction and an expansion of that theme.  I know that you’re committed to a competition format but perhaps some changes can yet be made.

Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2009, 12:15:32 PM »
Mike, nice post.

I'm glad it helped. I have no intention of letting something get to the media that misrepresents either discipline. I have no intention of letting something get out there that gets people involved in something dangerous which they are mislead to believe is our discipline. If there is anything in my track record which makes people feel that I might I'd certainly be open to discussing that.

For clarification.. I think, Mark, that people absolutely do not question your intention of representing Parkour/Freerunning in the best way possible. I think they question how the media, outside of your control, will personify it... and how the reactions of the mass audience, which can we cannot control, will affect the art as we now know it.
Example: if there are announcers for a show, there must be at least one of "our own." We need actual experienced practitioners that are commentating on the action (if it's that kind of show) that actually understand what's going on. Maybe there can even be guests that will join in...
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2009, 12:25:58 PM »
Joseph you've done it again, after reading your first sentence, I'm out.I had no venom, and you said (not me) that maybe I told people what to write. So I'm sorry, but I don't like your method of discussion.

I really see everything else you have written as a continuance of your agenda, whatever it may be, it is far too complex to be simply questions of issues.

You've now written another 6 paragraphs to explain how you''re not doing that, I'm sorry, it sounds like more of the same to me.




 
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2009, 12:35:22 PM »
Alec the idea - at least a this point-  is that I would be the "color commentator", and Brett Haber (2X emmy winning sports announcer) would be the announcer. This 2 person format works very well for many professional sports formats.

Please realize guys that there are some details which I simply won't and can't share publicly yet, but I'll try to answer as many questions as practical at this early stage.

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Offline Joseph Torchia

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2009, 01:04:52 PM »
Mark, APK, most of the points that I have thought of take a critical stance on what you are promoting but I hope that you do not mistake a critical stance as an attempt to criticize APK. For so few (the members of the Tribe and APK) to attempt to promote and grow the discipline on a national level I find truly admirable.  I thank you for that work, and the dedication and sacrifices you have made. To be fair APK is collectively forging a path before any other in the United States so it is understandable that you occasionally make mistakes.  That said, there are decisions being made that I must respectfully disagree with.  Furthermore, I think that APK, having the benefit of being able to watch the international community, should not have made some of the mistakes that it seems to be making. In this post I am not trying to make the argument that a competition and a league are inherently bad things, only that what you have described and shown of the processes has me concerned.  I think that the premise that you have based this agreement on is inherently flawed. You should, in my opinion, be spending your time and resources on things that would better benefit the community you seek to serve.

I will first attempt to address what I feel is a flawed premise. There seems to be a profound misunderstanding and a lack of appreciation for this discipline and what it was meant to be. L’art du Deplacement, Parkour, Freerunning ; whatever, originally grew out of a desire to become strong - to become strong mentally, emotionally, personally, and (perhaps even lastly) physically. The movement that we are all captivated by, that inspired us all was merely the byproduct of that pursuit. Parkour (or whatever you want to call it) is a methodology of training, first and foremost.  To create a league and to create competitions runs the risk of inversing that emphasis, by making the focus and the pursuit of the discipline on the movement instead of self-betterment. 

Whether you are training parkour to express yourself, or to move efficiently from one point to the other should be a non-issue.  As we all know, we all have our own reasons for training – there are a million reasons for training not just the two limited definitions presented by the common definitions for parkour and freerunning.  So while we don’t agree on definitions or methodology, we all agree one the purpose: to become stronger and better people, to surpass ourselves, through movement.  This is what the ‘Art of Movement’ means.  And that emphasis is key, because once you shift the emphasis from becoming strong mentally, emotionally, personally, and then physically, to movement you lose what the discipline is all about.  You loose the reason for which it developed and was first envisioned, and you lose the reason, the real reason all of us train.  For example,] one day, we’re not going to be able to move fluidly and efficiently nor will be able to do massive flips and tricks, but we’ll still keep training.  Why is that? The reason is simple; because our goal is to become strong in every sense of the word, and that spirit and intention is something you cannot show through a league or through competition.  That is why I am worried about this partnership, because you’re running the risk of eviscerating the soul of the discipline and corrupting it into something else entirely.  The focus of our effort, collectively and individually, should never be on the pursuit of movement but rather on the pursuit of self-enrichment and self-betterment through movement. It’s a subtle but essential distinction that is too often confused and miss-promoted.

Secondly, this partnership is a waste of resources and time because the U.S. parkour scene simply is not ready.  The parkour community doesn’t need to grow larger, it needs to strengthen so it can survive and perpetuate itself.  As evidence of this let’s look at the makeup of what a league might be.
 It comes to mind that a league and competition will showcase the best athletes. This sounds great in principle but in practice how would it work?  There are perhaps only about fifty practitioners give or take a few dozen, in the United States that could compete and succeed in a competition.  What is the point of a competition that only a few individuals or teams can participate in?  There are thousands that need training and to be taught to proper understanding of the methodology and practice of the discipline.  How will a competition or league benefit them in the short run?  We all know and planned on there being competition at some point, even the founders discussed this, so the long run is not important – in the long run there was always going to be competition. So why now, what service does this partnership provide to the community now?

It provides an opportunity for profit for APK, it’s partners, and a select few individuals.  That’s important as it allows for them to make a living and to keep on teaching in their local communities and to continue providing the services they do (APK, various gyms, even a NPO or two).  Okay, that’s wonderful. But how much would it take to produce a TV program like this, hundreds of thousands of dollars, perhaps millions.  What could be done with that type of money and capital.  Well, you could open up gyms all around the country, or you could invest it in a thousand other programs that would have lasting benefit all around the country and affect individuals and communities.  That sounds a lot better than a TV program, to me.   But, that’s a poor argument because without the TV program there would never be that much capital mobilized into the parkour industry.  Exactly, so where does that leave us? With or without a competition there will be little new money and capital coming into the community.  The money that will be coming in will mostly be supporting a few businesses and individuals at the “top”.  The added public attention from TV will bring in more practitioners to the same number of communities that are underfunded, understaffed, and quite frankly lack the knowledge and ability to properly teach these new practitioners and keep them safe. Also, a TV show will do nothing to change the laws that prevent most people from being able to train where they want, open up school sponsored programs, etc; it will do nothing to provide information how to set up a legal organization complete with insurance, instructors, and an EIN.  It will also do nothing to create a non-profit governing body that would be a representative organization that could act on behalf of the community, providing insurance, provide standards of safe practice and requirements to become a certified coach – all things that are needed to legally institutionalize parkour.  An influx on new practitioners will do nothing concrete to solve any of these major problems facing the parkour community but these new practitioners will grow the market and expand the industry. That’s a great business plan, and there’s nothing wrong with it – if that’s your goal.  However, if you’re trying to support the community, as APK says it is, then you’ve gone in the entirely wrong direction. 

What APK should be doing is publically encouraging everyone (including members of the Tribe and Alliance) to learn from the founders of the discipline, go back to the source.  Not out of some false idea of idol worship or to create some misguided cult of personality (such as those that briefly grew from David and Seb Foucan). But rather, contact with the founders should be promoted so that practitioners can understand where the discipline came from, why and how it was developed, and what it means to those who practice it most reverently. Thus, the U.S. community can appreciate and learn to have not just their physical prowess but also their humility, altruism and passion. 

If you disagree with their training methods, don’t worry about it - keep your training methodology, they don’t care – whether it be lifting weights through a regimen that directly adheres to the latest studies in sports medicine and science, MovNat, or Crossfit. Instead, seek to adopt the spirit that has inspired us all – directly or indirectly.

But not only should APK encourage the American parkour community to train with the founders and those they’ve endorsed to teach but it should create opportunities and platforms for the founders to come to America and teach.  If you can’t pay for the flights through APK, charge for it, take a cut if you need the money to support yourself because your not doing TV shows or product promotions.  There’s more than enough demand from the community to connect and learn from the founders to cover the costs of flights and hotels at an affordable price. Just look at the turnout for David Belle showing up in New York for the NewYorker Festival or the event we hosted in Columbus, OH.  And if APK has tried to connect to the founders and offered to bring them to the United States yet they’ve denied - perhaps APK better take a closer look at what it’s doing and how it’s running APK, because if they’re refusing it’s because they don’t think your representing the discipline correctly.  And if that’s the case then I think everyone should consider what and how it is APK is promoting and teaching the discipline. 

I believe that you (members of APK) are all good people, but even the best people with the best intentions can make mistakes.   And not actively providing and promoting access to and teaching from the individuals that have the most experience practicing and teaching this discipline, never mind having actually developed it, is simply irresponsible and suggests a staggering act of narcissism. 

Another thing that APK could do that would be far more productive and beneficial to the development of parkour would be to use it’s resources (expertise, capital, and the community) to create a representative national governing body that could provide insurance and would affiliate itself to the International Governing Body that Parkour Generations and Majestic Force (AKA Yann, Laurent, William, and Chau) are working with communities all around Europe to create with adherence to the ADAPT instructor certification program.  By doing these two things APK could provide an avenue to institute parkour as a legitimate sport/discipline/art that would work within the legal framework of the United States.  As such would provide a way for parkour to become taught in school systems, clubs, and universities around the country.  It would provide a set standard for rules and conduct that would produce better instructors, keep new practitioners safe, and promote the correct understanding of the discipline both within the parkour community and the general public.  A governing body would be an authority to settle disputes and act as an intermediary between the parkour community and public and private institutions.  Effectively ending kids getting kicked out of training spots, or worse getting in trouble with the law.  A national governing body would also serve to truly connect the disparate parkour communities around the country and bring them together under a single umbrella that would exist not merely as some name on a website, of because a bunch of people got together, started jumping on things, bought some T-shirts, and called themselves a “team or community” but that was an actual legal organization complete with a seal from the Secretary of State’s Office, an EIN number, and filed under the IRS.  In fact, just providing a guidebook on that would be more useful to the many parkour communities around the country than the league or competition APK is working on now (and have apparently been spending the last three years on).  And again the fact that APK has not done this already, I feel, is either a profound lack of foresight or an irresponsible disservice to the community which forces one to consider just how much APK’s choices are business decisions that are good for its pocketbooks, those of a few elite practitioners who would benefit from media exposure, rather than in service to the community.  I’m not saying it’s the case, but is sure makes us question.
Also APK should stop promoting a shoe that simply isn’t that good, and isn’t a cost effective option for the community when compared to other shoes.
I have no problem with what APK is doing as a business and it can do what it wants and what it feels can best make profits.  I know that the members of American Parkour are good people, who have a true passion and discipline for parkour, and want to see it grow and succeed.  I also understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch and as such members of the Tribe feel they need to promote products, perform for corporate sponsors, and seek to solidify the American Parkour franchise by making it into a brand name to support them and to have an income.  However, despite the best intentions of the members of APK their actions have thus far not been within the best interest of the national community.

Furthermore, I would like to dispel a notion that seems prevalent amongst many U.S. parkour practitioners; that American Parkour is a representative organization or that we, the many practitioners of the country, have a reason to be supportive of the business that is American Parkour when it’s actions are not within our best interest.  Because we don’t, and I believe we have a responsibility to speak up when their actions may threaten the discipline. To open their eyes to what would better serve the community when they cannot, or refuse to see it.

The problem is that parkour is simply too young and too vulnerable to business interests to survive and live as anything other than a shell of its former self. By focusing on a league or competition APK runs the very serious risk of misrepresenting the discipline.  Considering that many of the APK communities, don’t seem to understand or accept the discipline as is taught by the founders I feel that risk is closer to a certainty.  And if APK messes this up, our discipline will only live on as a X-Games, spectator sport that provides benefits and a lifestyle to a few but leaves the community to fend largely for itself.  Instead, of focusing on a media partnership I believe that APK should refocus and re-intensify it’s efforts on building up and strengthening the U.S. parkour community.  To create institutions that will benefit every community instead of just a few at the “top”.  There is no reason to push for a league or competition at this time, and certainly not in the manner that APK seems to be going – without proper emphasis on parkour as a discipline of movement (as opposed a discipline in pursuit for some ideal of movement), and without the involvement of the founders. Once the community has been established it can then focus on partnerships and media that will expand the discipline and create opportunities for its practitioners. If, as APK says, the ink is already signed, and there’s nothing to stop it the focus should be on the community/personal aspects of the discipline and should seek to showcase the proper understanding of the discipline in a documentary/artistic manner.  This effort should also involve the active founders and principle developers Yamakasi/PKGen, Belle and Foucan if you can.

The parkour community doesn’t need to grow larger, it needs to strengthen so it can survive and perpetuate itself. 

I know that post may be interpreted as pure negativity by some.  I wish to restate that my purpose is simply to offer a reasoned (while yet impassioned) response and critique of some of the decisions that are being made by APK. Specifically those relating to this most resent partnership.  I have full respect for the members of APK and wish them the best of luck moving forward. So much is riding on what you are doing.  I hope my words may be taken for the good natured critique they are meant to be and may be applied by APK now and in the future.

Offline Corndogg

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2009, 01:32:46 PM »
i need cliff notes.   :o
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2009, 01:33:29 PM »
Well, as I suspected, those are not questions. You have a very clear agenda, and I actually agree with many points of it.

the "questions" you pose I have to say in my opinion are mostly "why doesn't APK do this or this" and actually don't really relate directly to the league aspect except to say "don't do it, do this instead".

You ask why we haven't created a handbook - actually, I worked (discussed and added input) for 6 months on the one that ended up with Dan's name on the cover - if you think for a minute that business (big business) isn't already involved in parkour then you are sadly mistaken.

As for K-SWISS- I love their shoes, I DO like them better than other shoes, and yes, their support (mostly in the form of cash) has been a big help to APK to do many things.

Simply saying "why not put the money into something else" - without the league the money doesn't exist AT ALL. There IS no money to put into something else, which is one of the big points people seem to be missing - by doing certain commercial ventures it strengthens and improves our ability to do the things WE WANT to do.

No, a TV show won't change the laws that allow us to practice where we want, but the people working to change those laws need funding, they need to eat, and I'm sorry, but the money isn't falling out of the sky. Parkour Visions has actually been helped quite a bit the presence of APK in terms of getting necessary funds to do the work that Tyson, Rafe, Janine, and others are doing. I feel national exposure for those programs will help tremendously.  

I'm sorry that you feel that APK doesn't represent the community and it's wishes, there are many people who feel it does, and many people working to make their input heard.

You are doing that as well, and everyone can clearly see your opinion. Will I later get chastised for not posting your comments on the front page? That is what you did when I STARTED an anti-competitive thread and it "died in five days". I'm afraid that I won't ever live up to your standards, and what's more I'm afraid that I'm comfortable with that.

The last thing I'd like to say is do you feel that THE FOUNDERS are not motivated by the profit that will allow them to do this for a living? I remember very clearly "parkour doesn't need a forum" , "you can't learn parkour from a video", and "we don't need parkour merchandise" all being discussed by Parkour Generations, yet two years later all of those things exist on their site. I am not critical of any aspect except one: hypocrisy. I obviously feel there should be forums, tutorials, and merchandise available to those who want it, and I have said that very consistently.

It is romantic to think that someone will teach the discipline for purely altruistic reasons, but it is highly unlikely and not really a model that our modern world supports.

I'm sorry also that you feel that I have nothing better to do with my time than to hold some grudge against you. I do feel you treated me unfairly in the past, however I spend my time looking forward and trying to bring parkour / freerunning to people. I have no personal issue with you or anyone else that I feel is "active".

I am taking your words here at the value (to the best of my understanding) that your words here are meant to represent.

It is clear to me that you had something to get off your chest (not questions) and now it seems you've taken the opportunity to do that. Hopefully I have given you my perspective on your more pertinent points.




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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2009, 01:40:45 PM »
"Good luck to you and all the other people involved in this effort, and know that anytime you feel burdened with the responsibility, there is an entire community behind you willing to help in any way."

Thanks Adam, that means more than you could know.

I think it is easy to lok at a conversation like this and feel "Everyone is against it" when in fact if you look at the original comments on the article, there were about 8 people with concerns and probably 4-5 "supporters" out of 43 posts!!

Same here, yes, people have voiced their concerns, some I personally feel to be valid and some I feel to be unfounded fears, but it is always the case that people who are unhappy with something are more vocal. read restaurant reviews for a restaurant YOU LIKE and see what others say. There will always be a bad experience in a restaurant, even if it is simply a matter of building the wrong expectation, or someone's personal taste in food, or one waitstaff having a bad day!

So, I am not actually discouraged by the helpful constructive criticism that has gone on here. People like Brett's (just an example, there are a few people) input have given or reinforced ideas that we already had on how to make this a successful venture that the community and participants feel proud of.

We are listening, so please keep the ideas and input coming!

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Offline Alec Furtado

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2009, 01:50:28 PM »
Sorry Joseph, but I disagree with just about everything you said except for the part about organizing a national organization (paragraph #10). But still, results like that can come about from a large movement like this. The exposure certainly isn't necessary, but they might (MIGHT) give PK and it's value a large portion of the spotlight for sponsorship of something like that.

The United States parkour community is much larger and stronger than you presume it to be.


Mark - That sounds cool, man. Tbh though, 2x emmy winner doesn't mean he can't mess it up just the same :P. I sent you a message on Facebook, but I'll ask again... when might we start hearing more/seeing actual results? Or is that a secret too? :)
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Offline John Conway

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #77 on: September 02, 2009, 04:41:06 PM »
On a side note, what is this karma you speak of NoRush  :P
On a side note, what is this karma you speak of NoRush  :P

Whoa O.O
On a side note, what is this karma you speak of NoRush  :P

Yeah what karma leon?

hhahaa! You guys just made my day woth while.  :)

Offline John Conway

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #78 on: September 02, 2009, 06:02:15 PM »
Allright well I usually try making long, well-written posts like Joseph's but I just don't have the patience for that right now.  ::)
In the stead of elongated comments mine will be more short and choppy and about what I can actually remember.

First off I need to say that I feel my comments are full of flowery words sometimes, making me seem like an extremist or
someone who will not be persuaded. This is not the case at all. I am told all the time that I am "deep" and I need to
"lighten up." About this I want to point out that my views and opinions and feelings that I have, although they clearly
differ from some of the members of the Alliance and Tribe, I in no way mean to embarass myself or anyone else,
or to seem that I am 100% correct or right or better than anyone. I quite literally have love for many members of the
tribe and Alliance and if something really negative happened to them, I would probably end up crying for them (or you goven
the reader  :P).

Hopefully I'm getting across what I mean to get across. Could I say what I have posted to your faces? I ask myself that all the time,
and while usually the answer is yes, I encourage others to remember that if what you have to say cannot be said in person,
do not bother saying it online.

Joseph, I'm very glad you posted what you posted because I agree with what you have said, and, like M2, he also saidd he agrees with
some of your points...agenda was the word actually. Regardless, I'm saying that yes, people need not be afraid to present their own ideas even if they differ from those of the more well-known people on these forums.

I really don't know where I am in this matter anymore. Surely there are things that I do not agree with with APK.com, such as the definition aspect being official. However, there are other things that I fully support and contribute to, such as Leave No Trace.

I also recognize the need of money, really, no matter what any one says, we need money to survive. Whether that is ethical or right, or whatever does not matter, we need it to survive. There are certain ways to make this money. Competition, or commercilization, is one way.
Now, just because APK.com might come up with a competition, does not mean that everyone should assume that every parkour/freerun/l'ard du deplacemet practitioner in America supports these competitions.

I think a main challenge of APK.com, and that I think Joseph was trying to get across was that AmericanParkour.com has American in the title, leading others to assume that hey, everyone in that country must surely agree with what is going on. That is not the case what so ever, and I encourage people to voice their opinions.

I would like to see a bigger televised parkour community. I would not like to see competition in the form of 1 vs 1. I would like to see competition in the form of 1 vs. Self. Both Joseph and Mark make very valid point. Compromise is the key. We must be able to adapt, just as parkour has taught us all. We must be able to adapt.


Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Discussion of APK Partnership with FME and Motion Inc.
« Reply #79 on: September 02, 2009, 06:18:22 PM »
The way that APK represents what peopel think is right here, and on the homepage. I hope you'll all rememebr when Rafe made an article that was anti-competition. Even though it didn't suit MY personal goals, nor the commercial goals of APK, it was posted right on the front page, given equal weight with anything created "by APK" ... so I can only say to anyone who feels they are not represented - "Where are you"

With that I will point out once again, that people with a grievance or disagreement are much more likely to post than those who agree, because those who agree feel that their opinion has been voiced.

How annoying is it in fact when someone posts, and 10 people post the same thing or say "I agree" ...

NoRush I agree with your plea for people to state their opinions and not be afraid to go against the grain, but also ask that they do so with a purpose and with as much care as you and have put into your posts.

People who have not violated the rules of the forum have not been banned, not matter what their views or opinions.

Frankly I feel that flowery and long-winded usually make your point less succinct.

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