Author Topic: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net  (Read 7842 times)

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2009, 05:59:18 PM »
Blane responds

I had a browse through this topic earlier but only now have I sat down to read the entire thread. I have to say it contains by far the most interesting and inspiring posts I have read on a forum in a LONG time.

Erwan, I have read and re-read your posts that you kindly took the time to submit on the UF forums about a year ago, countless times and each time I find myself inspired by George Herbet, yourself and Methode Naturelle.
The topics that helped my Parkour the most was the importance of breathing properly, being at one with your environment and what you called 'furtive training'. - That last subject is now a part of my everyday life and I’m constantly working on my breathing techniques to improve my physical abilities. :-)

It wasn't until I read the detailed articles on this website about David's early (and current) training methods and his imaginary scenario creations that I began to realise just how much I could improve with visualisation and actual setting of goals, routes and challenges whilst training.

One of my favourite things to do right now are 'off-ground challenges', simply moving around without touching the floor is what it looks like to anyone watching but in my mind I'm 100m in the air and if I fall, then I die.
The more I practice it, the more it benefits my actual ability to move when I am up at serious heights. If you are in the right mind-set for this kind of training then you will find yourself beginning to believe that you ARE actually in great danger if you fall.
I'm sure you can imagine how beneficial this is to your ability to move at height and not panic.

Swimming never crossed my mind as an obstacle to be integrated into Parkour training so thanks for starting this thread and opening my eyes to that.
I guess human nature encourages us to train and adapt to our more immediate surroundings first before considering other possibilities. For me, living in a small half-rural town just outside a major urban city, my natural first response was to prepare for urban and rural 'situations'.

The 'elements' discussion above is also very interesting... I do train in the rain and wind but it's harder to prepare for things like hazardous gases and fire. :-o
I liked the idea of running 100m whilst holding your breath, it would be interesting to test some common Parkour techniques without using a fresh supply of constant air intake, perhaps I will look at spending some time experimenting with that.

I'll be spending some time with the;

QUOTE
"It resides not only in the muscles and the breath, but above all in the "energy" which is used, the will which directs it and the feeling which guides it."


...quote as I'm sure it has more layers to it than is obvious, that will open up as your training and mind develops.

Looking forward to reading more from this topic and finding out more about Methode Naturelle, it is of great interest to me.

-Blane

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2009, 06:00:24 PM »
Thanks for your long post Blane, I'm always glad to hear that my words may be useful to some of you ;-).
Regarding my posts on UF yes about a year ago, it wasn't then about Hebert but about Haberey, a French very special man I've trained with for 7 years in Paris.

Yes, visualisation is VERY important. Think of how what you train for, how you train like, is going to be useful and then used in an actual situation (not training).
That leads me to "It resides not only in the muscles and the breath, but above all in the "energy" which is used, the will which directs it and the feeling which guides it."

I asked Regis Hebert (Georges son, now 80) about it, so he went into a long explanation, and to sum it up, let's say that this will is sense of respect, of responsability etc...
To me...this "energy" is love.

"Etre fort pour être utile." I'm currently (hardly :-) ) training to be a lifeguard (aquatic type of rescue), not that I want to be one, just that I want to be able to rescue someone out of the water if I ever see (again) someone drowning. It makes my physical (very good so far :-D) condition even more meaningful you see ?
It is a beautiful feeling to feel that not only what you do can give you a better ability to escape from a danger (not mentioning the satisfaction of the training itself plus all benefits to your health and quality of life) but that it could potentially save your friend, your brother or sister, your parents, your neighbours or even complete strangers. Don't you think so ? :-)

So Etre fort pour être utile.

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2009, 06:00:57 PM »
AIDA Brazil, nice ! Yes Loïc lives where my parents live, so I ran into him quite a few times indeed, and he's a very simple guy.
As for my apnea training, I'll try to train more the depth part in the end of the summer, since before I'll be training and attending my second ironman. But I do train static apnea regularly even though I cannot dedicate much more time to it. It is such an issue to train to be complete, since every different type of training demands time and requires adaptations that sometimes are not compatible.
For instance, training your strength makes you more muscular, which is not that good for running and swimming, and consumes lots of oxygen when doing apnea, or spending lots of time in the water soften your palms and feet, which is bad when you want to run barefoot, and so on. Plus if you've got a job :-D, you've got to share you spare time between different disciplines, and it's then not easy to train enough in each area to make real progresses. So usually it goes by cycles, like one or two months you want to focus more on endurance, then on strength, more on parkour or more on swimming or climbing or else etc...
Being complete means no specialization, but making real progresses sometimes demands enough specialization. Very challenging. Fortunately, when you get an "interesting" level in one area, you can more easily and quickly catch up with your previous level after a break, faster than when starting from scratch, yep, fortunately.
So you see, parkour is only one key. You may be good at it, but if you can't swim, hold breath, fight, lift, carry or throw heavy objects, or endure cold and heat, you cannot cope with many types of situations in fact.
It is usual to see good traceurs unable to run a 20 k or even much less. If you can't run, if you can't swim, if you can't fight, if you've got low strength, wtf performing a 360° wallflip, I mean if you're looking for a genuine purpose, is that, or a video of yourself, a prioritary thing ?

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2009, 06:01:38 PM »
^^Exact. Etre fort pout être utile ;-). Je voudrais ensuite passer un monitorat d'apnée.

--- --- ---

Tu ne dois pas faire plus de 4' sur ton 200m 2 nages. Si comme moi tu n'es pas nageur à la base, tu auras peut-être du mal il te faudra bosser ta technique.
Tu dois aussi faire 3 x 15 m apnée avec 12" de récup et sans appui. 800m PMT (palmes masque tuba) en moins de 13'. Un 25m crawl avec un "canard" pour chercher un mannequin immérgé à 1,8 m puis remorquage de mannequin en rétropédalage sur 25m en moins de 1'20".
Toutes ses épreuves sont éliminatoires. Par contre si tu fais un super temps en natation 200m tu peux gagner des points.
Ca c'est pour le côté physique, mais il y a beaucoup de points en législation, ASN, secourisme (par équipe avec matériel type BAVU, DSA etc...). Essayes de bien préparer ton physique "aquatique" pendant l'été, en nageant beaucoup plus quelques apnées en binôme (accompagnées). En tout cas bravo, c'est utile ça ;-).

--- --- ---

Good swimmers don't make compulsorily good runners or jumpers and swimming doesn't make you more agile or endurant to parkour kind of efforts and moves.
Physical conditionning due to swimming is very specific, it has nothing to do with isometric kind of effort for instance. Take any swimmer than never trains parkour, apart from the technical aspect that obviously takes a while to master for a beginner, but regarding the only physical aspect, that swimmer will have his muscles all strained the day after. All simply because it's a totally different range of moves and efforts. So I don't think swimming is a great way to train the body for parkour. Swimming is a great way to train for...swimming, and obviously brings many physical benefits. Now, if you take a swimmer and a guy that never trains anything and ask them to try some parkour moves, the swimmer's better overall physical condition will be obviously an asset compare to the guy that never does any sport, for sure.

--- --- ---

Indeed, every specific kind of effort requires specific kind of physical adaptation.
Another illustration is running for instance. Obviously, training for a sprint is way different than marathon training, but there is more : running on a flat smooth distance and running exactly the same distance on a track and field kind of distance (up and down hill, with rocks, holes and bumps) is also a totally different kind of effort then adaptation (in the second case, you've got to be used to absorb more shocks, it's more a kind of isometrics effort, with many pace changes, plus better proprioception skill needed, so same distance, totally different kind of runner...).
Swimming is exactly the same. And this is why it's "easy" to be not too bad or even really good when you specialize a lot in any kind of sport or even specialty within a sport, but way more difficult when training to become a real complete athlete...

--- --- ---

Agreed. Most of people want to focus especially on what they're naturally skilled or talented for. I'm training what I'm not so good at untill I reach what I see as a satisfying level. Then I try to maintain that level as much as possible, while training more specifically other things I have to make progress in.
The reason why I keep on training (about to be 35) is because I NEVER actually feel strong, I don't feel weak either, but I only see the whole different kinds of progress I still can make and it is what prevails. I also know that the level you can reach is never something granted, and the physical condition you can make takes less time to loose than to build.

--- --- ---

Obviously YES. Hebertism isn't about making specialized champions, but about making complete athletes than can help their community, nation, or simply others. So that is a VERY important principle of Hebertism.

--- --- ---

Alfredblase, you must have read this thread too quickly and misunderstood things (mixing them up).
Parkour isn't MN, MN isn't parkour. Despite some similarities, it's different purposes, different way of training. So read again about it all please. And btw I'm giving ethical or training guidelines. I'm just sharing my personal mindset and outlook on training. Now you train what you want, the way you want and for the reasons you want. You've got nothing to worry about or worse to puke about like you said, man, be free ;-).

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2009, 06:02:13 PM »
I think it's a good outlook Vivanto, but it's also something I have been telling repeteadly to people and tried to have them understand that for a long time.
Still, we go on watching vids with movements without continuity and people that clealy seem very satisfied with their precision landings, over and over.
Oppositedly, a very good example of what parkour should be most of the time trained like and look like can be seen on the recent Mathieu Ledoux's video.
It illustrates well an essential teaching of Methode Naturelle which is to be able to sustain a continuous (no breaks) effort, continuous meaning more than 30 minutes, depending also on the intensity. It should also be an important principle of parkour !!!
Endurance is THE prioriary capacity in MN. Endurance in running, jumping, swimming, walk on all fours, etc... i.e endurance in motion especially, but also endurance in sustaining all kinds of natural and utility efforts. Of course agility and other capacities are super important too, but priority is always given to the fundamental and vital capacity which is endurance and especially endurance of the most essential human capacity of all : running.
Except some rare original traceurs like Sebastien Goudot or Mike (pizza aux 4 hahaha), I haven't met so far any traceur that can go on with a continuous effort including continuous running and also sprints + overcoming obstacles.
Apart from them that already knew, I can tell that all traceurs that have trained with me have understood the GREAT importance of OVERALL endurance and I think have started running more often.
Indeed, and that's something I've already mentioned, how many of you actually train their endurance, means non-stop training sessions ?
How many have actually experienced what it is to feel exhausted and have an experience of what they're still worth doing in such a state, for instance precision jumping or balancing ?
How many have tried passing obstacles after a long run, or a long swim, or after series of squat or lifting heavy stuff, or wrestling ?
I've often heard that most reality situations are supposed to demand a super fast and intense action that doesn't last long so that endurance is secondary...really ? How come ? The same people that had told me such things found themselves out of breath sometimes after less than 3' fast motion, so, what is 'explosive' ? 30 seconds ? 10 seconds ? What if you had to escape guys in a street with NO other obstacle but distance ? How fast and long can you run actually, do you know ?
And yes, not only their endurance is soon challenged, but what is a fact is that as soon as your endurance is challenged, your capacity of focusing, then consequently your agility is very challenged. Why is that ? Because between endurance and agility, the body gives priority to finding the ressources to sustain the effort, not to perform a beautiful and well controlled movement.
What the conclusion ? The more endurance you get, the longer your ability to control your movements well.
The less endurance, the shorter time your ability to control your moves. You'll find yourself limbs shaking, muscles burning, vision blurred, and begging for a break. Where have all your parkour skills gone after 15 minutes fast and continuous run ?
Thing is, and that's something I've clearly noticed and understood, most parkour practitioners that give a try training a more complete way with me finally decide to stick to parkour only (well actually to what they think parkour training is, because actual, original parkour is more demanding on endurance). Why ? Because the way parkour is now practiced is more fun, because agility movements are fun, like flying. But a complete natural and utility training is physically and mentally more demanding, in a nutshell, it's tougher, because it's a larger kind of training. It burns, it shakes, it hurts you. It's a multi-level adaptation.
And what you think is a 'tough' training might prove to be rather kind of 'light' actually. Try to figure what could be actually 'tough' and what mental capacities it would require, else than courage, but rather will (in a effort that involves mental strength continuously).
So thinking of 100 meter time, yes why not, but that just a mark, what about 500 meters, what about series of jumps within a 1h run, combining swim sprints + runs and jumps, combining lifting + climbing + runnning etc...
But if we're only talking about what is trained in parkour, then my advise, again and again, is to allow more time to cardio-respiratory endurance through actual natural movements, I mean training sessions where you train jumps, vaults, drops, climb-ups etc... but won't stop AT ALL means you have to jog or run in between and that without stopping, where you will focus less on the technical form of movements (I don't say not at all, but less importantly) but more on building the will to not stop or break your motion and also 'play' with your endurance sensations by alternating different paces.
So no, it isn't necessary to reach exhaustion all the time (by the way what do you call `exhaustion` ?) but performing your `usual` moves after or within a tiring overall effort will make you understand what are your actual possibilities and your actual limits.

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2009, 06:03:21 PM »
Things that I already told numerous time : run, swim, why not bike and jump the rope at least twice a week.
A decent endurance work starts as from 40-45 mn non-stop. Of course it's possible to train shorter time but more intensely (faster pace) and it works very well in the beginning, but it works even better, at both a physical and mental level, if you train to sustain a longer time or distance because it builds a real endurance adaptation (storing more and also using different sources of energy) and also a confidence in distance and the ability to move a longer way ( this experience will 'shorten' your own appreciation of distances).
You can play with alternating paces ('fartlek') freely including slower phases but also sudden sprints, or do some interval-training using a watch, but it doesn't compulsorily needs to be so scientifical in the beginning, what counts is to simply train endurance more often and actual endurance, not just a 10 minutes jog to warm up because 10' is like...nothing.
It might feel truly boring to many of you, but what do you expect ? Easy training ? Gain but no pain ? What is your goal, super precision jumps that look good or a more complete condition starting by overall resistance in the first place ? Something that demands a stronger will is something that builds a stronger mind. Mental challenge on harder obstacles requires courage, but resisting the will to give up and stop when your legs burn running demands a strong will that lasts longer. It's differently challenging the mental qualities, but it is AS MUCH important in parkour.

Now, to make it more fun, personnaly I like to train a one hour non-stop training session including a variety of obstacles on the way, between 50 and 80, means up or more than 1 obstacle per minute. Drops, distance precision jumps or climbups, whatever doesn't slow me down too much or too long so that the session remains a continuous run.
If 1h is too long for you in the beginning, you can start by 20 minutes for instance. The number of obstacles (that can be the same done repeatedly) and the level of difficulty will vary according to your possibilities, especially since you don't have time to stop to focus you must run but focus at the same time, it means you must choose less technical jumps if you want to keep it safe and controlled and not injure yourself or damage your joints. Also it's up to you to sometimes speed up or slow down .
That's to me one great way to train your cardio-respiratory condition while keep the fun of involving jumps and obstacles. Try it and you'll see you'll have great satisfaction ;-).

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2009, 06:04:11 PM »
Mis-spelled "fartlek"

Indeed, typing mistake. It's the most enjoyable way to train because it feels natural and spontaneous, it simply feels free. It adapts to your sensations, to the ground, to your will, it reflects well what is to be in motion in the nature, which will demand to adapt to different paces, sometimes switching suddenly from fast to slow, slow to fast, increasing speed, decreasing speed, fast alternation of fast and slow etc...
HOWEVER it is also a limited kind of training to get better results in speed and/or endurance you need to plan and respect other kind of training programs, which I do, but not only this is something individual that must adapt to one's own goal but also one's own possibilities, but it is also something that requires knowledge and experience, so not the kind of general tips that can be given just like that. It would be useless and not serious.
That's why training parkour a 'fartlek' way is the best advice I can give (try to find more info about it, it generally regards running but can easily fit to a run and jump kind of training) and the one that is the most safe, simple and fun.

--- --- ---

It's all good to sprint and feel the "burn" in your limbs especially the legs but also the lungs and feel your heart pounding however alternating with slower paces not only allow you to do it again several times (so that in the end your total amount of time spent sprinting is higher than if you had tried to just go on sprinting until you are "dead" and must stop) but it proves to be very efficient in term of adaptation to fast changes (some interval-training programs consist in 30" sprint and 30" slower for half an hour, but that's only an example that doesn't necessarily apply to you or your own condition and goal).
Anyways like I said, even though I do believe at some point it's totally necessary to "rationalize" the training(s) to optimize it, I believe it only concerns an athlete that has already reached a plateau and that needs to "trick" his own body by using a much more specific methodology in order to push it to reach higher level of performance that cannot be reached by just random training or simply adding more "volume" (quantity of effort provided). Intensity or quantity of "work" reaches limits and rationalized quality of training becomes truly essential.
BUT how many of us are actually concerned by such objectives ? A huge majority of parkour practitioners are young and just need to GRADUALLY build a whole condition starting from a usually very average, when not poor physical condition.

So Faulkermano if you feel like sprinting but know the goal is to not stop AT ALL during your training session then think about it before you start speeding up so you already know you will only slow down but not totally stop. Prepare your mind and your will. Show honor to your own personal commitment to your training and to yourself. If you tell yourself before you start you're going to do this or that, then do it no matter what (not talking about dangerous moves here but about endurance or strength training).
Yes, a "parkour fartlek" is much more taxing that random jumps or running only.
Personaly I do not "refuel" myself apart from water when the weather is hot, but it depends on the weather and as long as the weather isn't too hot and that you have drunk a lot hours before the training and enough just before starting to train it's quite possible to not drink for an hour and that's what I do, BUT it's always best to have some water available and to feel free to drink as much as you want. Dehydration, even slight, can cause injuries and also lowers performance.
As for food nope I do not eat at all even when I train more than 1h. But that's only if you are a complete athlete, means you're also an endurance athlete used to sustain long efforts, so 1h non-stop endurance training is actually a "short" training (I'm not talking about a strength training which should last less than one hour but be more intense). I won't give more details about how it works at a physiological level because that's going to be too much complication and you're not there yet.
But to be simple, the more you'll resist the need to eat while training, the more you'll get used to it...simple body adaptation.
Apart from real endurance athletes, all energy drinks are just bulls---, that's pure commercial bs. It only works for the unprepared athlete that has no serious training and no knowledge of physiology.

Last, exhaustion can be especially beneficial at a mental level, it can be some sort of test of will and build a stronger mind, but regarding the physical and physiological aspect of the training, I think it's usually rather a bad thing. It might cause injuries and other physical troubles. But again, depends on what you call "exhaustion", some kind of exhaustion (especially pure endurance training) can provide real benefits sometimes and under some specific conditions.
As for vomiting, I think it's an heresy to push so much that you feel so bad, actually when I train strength intensely I do feel some kind of stomach illness sometimes indeed, but to push further would mean you're playing with your health. People that are proud to vomit because pushing hard should instead think that the only reason why they have to vomit is because their diet is bad and/or their meals and training plan are not very well combined. For instance if you drink one liter of orange juice and eat 3 energy bars 10' before training and after a short warm-up start series of explosive sprints you might ralph within minutes or even seconds and it doesn't prove anything but that you're an ignorant.

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2009, 06:04:55 PM »


It's just slaloming around bamboo sticks, that's the beginning (after warm-up walking) of the training session on that beach.
It requires fast changes of pace and direction ((trying to slow down as less as possible and to accelerate as fast as possible while turning around the sticks).
It's especially demanding when running on sand, great cardio-pulmonary training and legs work out through fast movement.

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2009, 06:05:54 PM »
It can be done using any sufficiently close landmarks, even people walking on a street laugh.gif.
I'll use that post of yours Zorak to develop some other reflections about what is looked for in Hebertism.
You'll see that everything in MN is simple, and many people might think "I can do that" or "I already did that" and indeed they can, or could, or would... But what counts is the regular practice, to check progress in all areas and try to maintain the level that was reached in all of them for your whole life.
Many people, not necessarily that old people, sometimes in their...20's, will notice that they used to be able to do these things, but not anymore because of lack of regular practice.
MN teaches to see these simple and natural movements and exercises as fundamental movement we should never cease to pratice if we want to maintain our ability to move with agility, speed and endurance. In a nutshell, to move with ease. Instead of looking for sophisticated scientifical programs, just to explore what lies within your own being and deserves to be woken up and freed.
Every specialized athlete could say that they can whether run, swim, jump, lift, climb or fight much better than I do. All of them would be RIGHT, and I'd 100% agree with them.
MN doesn't incites you to specialize, quite the opposite, but to reach an optimum level (according to your own natural potential for each kind of movement) so you can cope with many situations of life, including more challenging if not perilous ones. So there's a choice to be made here, do you want to excel in one or two of those disciplines, but remain about unable to perform properly in all other areas of the human natural and useful (functional) capacity, OR to be totally, completely functional even if taking this option will never allow you to be a champion of anything ?
That is THE question :-D.

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2009, 06:06:20 PM »
Not exactly emphasis since prioritarily you wanna train to avoid being hurt of course (by strenghtening your body, training your agility and to know your own capacity), but it can be trained specifically or simply through regular training.
For instance, if crawling, you may only use your arms and let your legs just like "dead", you can do quadrudal walking with only two legs and one arm, or two arms and one leg, or climbing rope without using legs, or using only legs but one arm, or try to find your way with closed eyes etc...
I got hurt myself in Corsica near the end of the trip with a sprained ankle (training in the nature can be really tough and anyways whatever you do, wherever and at any level, "zero risk" doesn't exist).
This being said, I was trapped on the other side of a flooded river and had no other way but to do quadrupedal walking on the stony bank (one leg jump was way too risky, "quad" was perfectly safe) for about 200 hundred meters before I could find a zone where swimming was not too dangerous given my injury and the strong current. That day, we hadn't finished filming the rope climbing, so I had to climb it without using legs of course, then to climb again, untie the rope and climb down the tree using only my arms and one leg. So that was a real situation where I still had to move and do things while being hurt and unable to walk at all. I believe most of people would have called for rescue and gone to hospital. The conclusion is that indeed it is fun to sometimes make things a little more complicated as mentioned before, but you don't have to really train specifically for an injury case as long as you have a wide range of natural and useful exercises in your training. If you're "in shape" in a useful and complete manner, you're strong enough both physically and mentally to cope with about any "minor" kind of injury.
Now, it all depends on what is injured and how badly, I don't think there would be any "training" to resist or cope with an badly injured face or head, or important loss of blood or situations like that, see what I mean ? You can strive to train, thinking of many kinds of difficult situations, but there's no guarantee you can get by of all kind of situations, nor guarantee you'll ever have to use that great capacities trainings gave you to save your own life or other's.

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2009, 06:08:03 PM »
From PK Danno [of PKTO]: The project has been put on hold now and being thought about thoroughly before further steps are taken. It will be modified from its original form in one way or another, and steps are being taken in order do this.

That being said, although the video will be released one day, it will not be in the near future and a date cannot be said at this time.

Treat this as an official statement. Thank you.


--- --- ---

Whatever way the human body trains, in whatever direction, apart from destructive routines, there's always adaptations and progress, more or less, slow or fast, also depending on each individual. Appraising the efficiency of a method mainly depends on the way it is done, but prioritarily according to the goal that is looked for.
A general goal itself can be divided in multiple goals.
Some different methods sometimes have similar goals, like self-defense (not launching a discussion about it please) but different ways to reach it. Some different methods have partly similar goals, or totally different ones.
What is efficiency is an eternal debate. The way to define this efficiency is an eternal debate. Comparing is always interesting, but not compulsorily objective at every level. Nature is extremly sophisticated, human nature too. Different ways to understand it, explore it, explain it, define it, experience it and enjoy it.

--- --- ---

When I practice parkour, I can see this training whether as a parkour training of course, or as well as a MN technical training (focusing on "movement on land" capacities).
A MN training session is basically a combination of several or all of natural capacities without pauses, so no-stop, no idle-times, only at different paces, slow or fast.
A MN technical training session focuses on refining the technical control of the movement or effort, in usually one or only few of all existing natural capacities (there is 10).
A "rush" of parkour, non-stop movements, could be seen as a MN training session involving the natural capacities or running, jumping, climbing, balancing and QM.
A training of different "parkour" moves, repeating moves and trying to control them better, while allowing myself pauses, breaks, to try things differently, re-focus, or relax, is basically the SAME as a MN technical session. Only in MN, endurance sessions (non-stop) prevail on technical sessions, even though improving technical control of movements and efforts is not neglected at all in MN.
So basically that's it. When I go swim, then get out of the water and run, am I doing triathlon because I used to train triathlon before ? Hey, but where is the bike ? So is it aquathlon ? Or is it athletics when I start some interval-training routine ? Or is it trail training as I start to leave the road to follow a single track in the wild, now on a "fartlek" mode ?
Or is it "MN" (as many people would think) just because I want to simply enjoy running barefoot ?
Or does it become parkour as I start jumping from rocks to rocks while keeping on running ? Or MN ? When did it start being any of them ? And when did it stop being any of them ?

I am, just like many of you, a man of multiple experiences, thoughts, emotions, motivations.
The most my activity or behavior will conform to some official or commonly accepted definition, the more this practice is likely to be called by such or such name, WHEN needed to give it a name.
Sometimes, it is quite obvious.
Sometimes, it is less obvious, and boundaries are crossed.
Sometimes, it can be totally something and totally something else at the same time. Sometimes, partly something and partly something else at the same time.
Sometimes, it's just totally different things.
It doesn't confuse me AT ALL.
Because my experience and understanding makes me able to make a difference.

--- --- ---

So any activity you choose, natural or not, scientifical or not, methodical or not...what it it about ? Personal satisfaction.
Does is fit you ? Does it fit who you are, your taste, as well as your expectation ?
Does it fit your conception of existence, and of course prioritarily your own existence ?
That is the real question. The is no "better way", only the one that you choose to follow, this was said over and over before.

As for MN, indeed I believe it all simply may suit people (who cares how many) that prefer a more natural way, more intuitive (body intelligence) but without being aleatory, so following a defined method of practising what is natural to the human nature. So yes, a method that is close to nature and also close to their own nature, while also focusing on the altruist part of this nature and not on the individualist one.

I believe it is a very simple concept indeed.

--- --- ---

Tous les textes sont rédigés depuis plusieurs mois.
Quand je vois ce qui arrive au parkour et toutes ces dérives dues à des personnes qui ignorent volontairement sa philosophie d'origine et tentent de le détourner pour des raisons commerciales, ça me fait BEAUCOUP réfléchir.
Il y a des milliers de petits gars pleins d'hormones qui veulent se faire plaisir à se montrer en vidéo à la moindre occasion, et de l'autre côté des businessmen en embuscade prêt à sauter sur la moindre information pour alimenter leur business et activer la pompe à fric.
J'ai encore besoin de temps pour trouver la parade et faire les choses bien, constructivement, en évitant les mêmes dérives.
Mais ça va venir. En attendant, rien ne vous empêche d'aller crapahuter dans les bois, les rivières, soulever des troncs et des roches, plonger, nager, lancer, apprendre à vous battre, bondir et grimper. Pas forcément méthodique , mais déjà naturel ;-).

[Google Translate] All texts are written for several months.
When I see what happens to the parkour and all these lapses due to people who willfully ignore his philosophy of origin and attempt to divert for commercial reasons, it makes me think A LOT.
There are thousands of young guys full of hormones that want to be happy to show video on any occasion, and on the other side of businessmen in ambush ready to pounce on any information to fuel their business and enable the pump money.
I still need time to find the parade and do things well, constructively, avoiding similar abuses.
But it will come. Meanwhile, nothing prevents you from going trudge through the woods, rivers, lifting logs and rocks, dive, swim, run, learn to fly, jump and climb. Not necessarily methodical, yet natural ;-).

Offline Gregg HIPK

  • Moderator
  • Hirundo Rustica
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • Karma: +72/-4
  • Methode Naturelle
    • View Profile
    • HIPK fb group
Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2009, 06:14:08 PM »
Despite I must have spent more than 200 hundred hours on it already, I have cancelled the MN project, this decision was take about two months ago, here's the reasons why:

_Trying to introduce MN in a synthetic manner in a modern vocabulary is a delicate task because it implies updating Hebert's writings. It is not the basics that are outdated since they do meet the specific goals of MN, but the way to define and introduce them. It would impose to take the decision to sometimes greatly modify the way Hebert defined his concepts and that's not something I'm untitled to do, despite my (honestly) great understanding of these very concepts.

_I don't want to be for the rest of my life the guardian of a so-called tradition, history, or to always have to check that everyone conforms well to a given conventional method, doctrine, philosophy or ethics. I've done my share but it is pretty boring, time-consuming and not appealing at all, this is very easy to understand.

Even though they are honorable and valuable, I don't want to have to constantly conform myself either to these principles that someone else defined a century ago and that applied to the specific historical context of that past time.
Instead, I believe things need to evolve, to be refreshed and fully adapted to present times and lives.
MN is not a martial art and Hebert was not a sensei.
My goal is not to be useful to the method itself as it is under its current form for the sake of respecting history and conventions, but to see how the beneficial aspects of the method could become useful again to some people. I say some people because despite I believe it could be beneficial to everyone, I understand not anyone would like to train this way, so it's no about deciding who should benefit of the method or not, but understanding only some people would be interested in it.
I see the method as being just like any other method: just like a screwdriver, a pedagogical or tutorial book, it is tool and no more. The tool itself is of a less importance than its potential benefits for the people that use it.
So after a long reflection I've come to the conclusion than the best option in this regard is to use what's best in it (in my opinion) while getting ridden of what is negative (in my opinion again).
Therefore I've decided to go for a new form of my own, a renewal and an evolution that will keep what's best in it but will give me some creativity and freedom to implement anything I feel like and believe is necessary, and that goes especially regarding the ethics and philosophical principles.

My personal background is obviously not just MN. There's also the numerous teachings of Jean Habrey. There's also all sports I've practiced such as martial arts or triathlon, there's as well my own experience of life, observation and research and reflections.
Most importantly, there is my personal values. MN has never been a sole physical training, but also stood for specific values. Though I share many of them, I also have my own and some are actually contradictory with Hebert's own values. I also believe that regardless of the training principles themselves, Hebert was the outcome of his own time and personal background and experience and that his concept and ethics greatly derive from them. So am I.
Just like him, I am the outcome of my time, my familial background, my own experience of life and my personal expectations and from all of this stems a personal set of values as well as a specific orientation.

I cannot reveal yet this orientation in details, but basically it will be environment-oriented and freedom-oriented.

So even though the training method that I will introduce will remain greatly inspired by Hebert’s, it will not only be "pure" MN but will include other types of training. It is a rather synthesis.
Consequently and since I have evolved towards a more personal philosophical perspective, it would be dishonest to call what I intend to do “MN” when I’m implementing numerous training and conceptual aspects in my project that Hebert didn’t include or developed himself in his work.

Now, no deadlines, no pressure. I've done lots about it already but still much needs to be done.
Also remember it's an OFF-TOPIC matter that is not especially parkour-related. You have no reason to take this more seriously than a skateboarding project or else, and if you choose to do so, don't come complain to me or blame me or go whining because you've got no news, because it doesn't lead nowhere, because I pretend to be someone special or superior or whatever other reason.
It may take a few months, why not a few years? I can’t predict because it is a creative process and because I'm not following a predefined plan, a pre-existing concept or tradition. Also because I DO NOT COMPROMISE with any industry, sponsor or existing business. I'm rather a loner and relie solely on my personal ressources and some friendly connections.
But hopefully it will take less that a year from now on. Who’s in a rush anyway? Not me.
I am not in charge of anything except my own life and my own choices and if you're looking for ways to improve your own life, there's so much you can learn by yourself from the whole world. So good luck with your self-growth, is such is your purpose in life and I wish you so, and who knows as some point it is likely indeed that I release some info that you might find useful and valuable and that may match your expectations...or not.
Does'nt matter, you know why? Because I'm not trying to please or convince anyone, but to share the best I can what I think is valuable. But again, it's all a matter of personal perspective and expectations.
I’m not the outcome of a tradition and don't want to be. I’m defining a new and different way, that it comes to fruition or not, that is fits you or not, that people like it or not is a totally different issue. To be honest, even though the training concept itself may appeal to many, the purpose I'm associating to it is twofold, one is positively and commonly accepted, i.e. environmental issues while the other, i.e. freedom, is greatly controversial and a matter of personal convicition.

If my project goes on as I plan, at some point some people willing to do so will be able to come train with me a way that is very close to MN for sure, however with a different ethical perspective and purpose. It will be entirely up to them to decide if they want to train this way in the first place and to go on with it and if it is satisfying to them.
If it doesn't go as planned for some reason...forget about all I said.

And to those who'd still doubt it, I never pretended to be some kind of superior athlete, I've my own weaknesses and things to improve, what counts is to not compare my level or capacities with others but for you to decide if the perspective I have to offer, both regarding training and regarding values and purpose, suits and match your personal expectations. NO MORE.
There are plenty of methods out there in this world, and lots of freedom to experience new stuff for people with an open mind and seeking for answers or solutions for themselves.
There’s lots of quality trainers in all kinds of field that are highly competent about what they do and teach. There's as well lots of philosophies and beliefs out there, you just have to take what you like and forget what you do not.


I wish you great improvements, satisfactions and happiness in your own trainings, activities and lives smile.gif.

Erwan

PS and NB:

In case you aim at the goals that MN aims at, there's other ways to reach them, like training all the capacities separately, it works too.
There's alo the possibility for you to instinctively train all natural things together mixing them the best you can and following your intuition. This is somehow a basic form of MN for ppl with no real knowledge about it.
Now, when it comes to call what you do MN without having studied Hebert's writings and claim you know what you're talking about, and even worse when it comes to making vids and labelling them "MN", let me tell you it is not only illusory but also plain false and blatantly dishonest to do so.
If you believe MN is just about running barefoot in the woods, climb trees and lift rocks, you just have no idea how ignorant and wrong you are about it.
As regarding a pure ethical level, if you want to be strong to be useful for real and really dedicate your energy to help others and save lives, the best way to do so is for you to become a firefighter or some kind of professional rescuer. As from that, you can implement all kinds of trainings in order to become a more complete athlete and a better life-saver.

This post has been edited by Hebertiste: Dec 8 2007, 11:40 PM