Author Topic: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net  (Read 7823 times)

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« on: July 09, 2009, 05:44:03 PM »
"As a MN student and follower, what do you think of "useless" exercises, such as strength training instead of working out the body directly with useful movement as proposed by MN?"

Posted by Jean ;-)on another post, so I thought I had to reply to that one, but to not go off-topic, I'm replying here.
Jean, "strength" training doesn't mean anything specific. If you're talking about conventional working out, using muscle isolation, series of reps, lots of routine, no cardio-training and so on indeed, it's not exactly "useless" (because always better than doing nothing) but it is NOT DIRECTLY USEFUL, so not very interesting from a MN standpoint. For instance, being able to bench press one hundred kg or more is ok, but how focusing on that kind of performance all the time is going to be useful in a real situation ? But it doesn't mean it is totally useless. You could be trapped under a heavy pile of stones, and maybe this kind of strength can help you out.
I would never say such or such kind of training is totally useless, because even saltos, or playing ping-pong is better than doing nothing, and can also help you know yourself better. There's some good in about anything you learn and train, even tossing cans in a rubbish bin hahaha.
Now, again, the more you perform ACTUAL moves in what is just like or very close to real situations, the closer to actual usefulness your training gets.
In a real situation, it's quite unlikely you'll have to push a heavy object from your shoulder up in the air ten times, but more likely that you'll have to lift that thing up onto your back or shoulders, could be a body, then carry it on maybe 100 meters distance ?
In MN, the basic training is always chaining different types of real situation exercises, BUT it is also possible, apart from that, and in some other training session, to focus on some muscles to work them out if you have to make them stronger, for instance if you can't perform some real movement or want to perform even better. This principle is called "correction des points faibles" (working on weak points)
You can sometimes only train jumps, or climbing, or apnea, because you want or need to improve in such or such area. But again, that's ONLY after you've reached a sufficient level in all ten kinds of exercises, so it means you must always first train to chain all of these exercises; if you were to only train separately climbing, swimming etc...it's not good and less and less faithful to MN basic principle. It should never mean a kind of specialization that will make your potential to perform other moves and exercises go low, weak, slow, inneficient. For instance, if you start to specialize in running long distance, it is very likely you'll loose weight and strength and become much less good at lifting and throwing, therefore lowering your overall physical level because of that specialization. It's all about balance, becoming, being, remaining complete as an athlete.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 05:44:33 PM »
"I have a very simple question: Are all useful movements natural moves?"


Guys, in order to avoid boring, endless and somehow sterile debates about what is natural and/or useful and what isn't from a GENERAL standpoint, I'll only answer from a HEBERTISM standpoint (and not from a general standpoint because then answers depend on each individual standpoint).
From a Hebertism standpoint, the training is based on the Methode Naturelle in which ONLY useful and natural movements (again, from a Hebertism standpoint)are performed. All of them are natural, all of them are useful and vice-versa.
Walking, running, jumping, quadrupedal movement, balancing, climbing, lifting, throwing, swimming and defense moves are all natural and useful moves.
It is all the universal physical basic skills all human beings are or should be able to perform (normally without learning them) to ensure survival in challenging or dangerous situations or simply daily life in natural or close to nature conditions.

Then, there is LOTS of other moves, gestures, techniques or knowledge, that are potentially useful in life, like massage, rescue techniques, sewing, acrobatics, sophisticated martial art techniques, sign language and SO ON. From a Hebertism standpoint, learning them is all good and part of the overall physical education or a possible direct and useful application of the motto "to be strong to be useful". But they are not part of MN.
None of them are essential to a complete, natural physical development of the human body according to what is immediately, basically, simply and directly useful to it.

If you learn a sophisticated MA techniques that efficiently saves you from an agression, it is then very useful, but it's not natural movement, because you had to learn it and practise it a lot before, it is part of a method or tradition that isn't commonly shared by all human beings, right ?
Now anyone could kick, punch or even bite an agressor in order to defend oneself without having to learn anything prior to defend oneself : useful and natural.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 05:45:11 PM »
Listen guys, it is legitimate to sometimes think about those things from a semantics or philosophical standpoint, and it is obviously questions I have pondered about too.
An illustration, on some Japanese islands, scientists observing local monkeys have once seen a female monkey grab roots full of sand and go rinse them in the water before eating them. If I remember well, it was in the sea, so scientists were wondering if it was only to avoid sand in the mouth or because it gave aliments a salty taste that tastes better. Anyways, it was the first time a monkey of that group ever did this, but then other monkeys started to do the same and it became a collective habit. Natural, unatural ? Was it "invented" ? Will monkey babes have to learn that from imitation or will they be able to do that instinctively without "learning" ?
Is something unatural because we can think of it, describe it, name it ?
We will NEVER now what is the black and white limit between what is instinctive to us and what is part of a learning, a transmission, a culture.
But for for sure, just look at kids of all countries, and you will see them run, jump, climb, balance, throw, lift, go on all fours, fight, go into the water, try everything, simple, unsophisticated moves.
To make things clear again, MN doesn't look for any kind of technical sophistication in the first place. Only after the basic, complete physical condition is reached can one start to train more technically to reach a higher level of mastery. But why would you train to jump "extremly" well if you can't even swim or defend yourself properly ? What is seen as natural is all movements humans that still live in conditions really close to nature HAVE to perform, more or less skillfully, in order to simply live : walking, running, jumping, climbing and so on...they have to do these things not as a training, but as something necessary, directly and immediately useful for their comfort or survival. They don't train : doing useful tasks is the training itself.
Methode naturelle is there to allow (especially kids and young people) to reach a complete and useful development of their bodies by a methodical training that gathers in each training session all or at least most of 10 different kinds of movements and efforts "natural" human beings everywhere on Earth have to do when they live "naturally" (in an unsophisticated manner).
This is why you won't see acrobatics in a MN training because you could probably (just like Georges Hebert while travelling through Africa or Asia) find "natural" human beings perform acrobatics as an entertainment, but not in order to get food or run away from a predator.
So acrobatics could be part of natural movements, but not directly useful to get food, carry stuff, build a shelter or access to it, or help a member of the group out for instance. All right ?
MN doesn't look for unecessary sophistication and tends to avoid technical complications.
If you train hours so one day you can put one leg behind your head while still standing up and call that an "asana" with some other special name for that technique, all right, you can put one leg behind your head while still standing up.
Will that help you lots to swim, climb, lift, or simply run ? I do not think so. Is it natural ? If your body can do it, probably it is. Is it useful ? From a MN standpoint, NOT at all. We don't train for a purpose that is not directly useful, unless there's a lack or a real issue for someone.
I'll explain that : MN doesn't train stretching, all simply because performing movements like climbing, quadrupedal movements or else will obviously develop your flexibility naturally. So flexibility is never a purpose, but only a logical consequence, all right ? Same with losing weight for instance, a logical consequence of the training, not the goal. Now, if someone, a beginner, is especially stiff and that stiffness prevents them from performing natural movements well or at all, the training for that person could be more based on movements that help develop more flexibility, it is called in MN the principle of correcting weak points, but it is only done in case of a specific problem until it gets enough better to train with sufficient flexibility. Never becomes a purpose in itself.
Ok ? So you may say that such or such movement is natural blah blah blah and useful blah blah blah ok my advise is why don't you stick to simple things and go train because I've noticed that a huge majority of traceurs I've trained so far are barely unable to stand a one hour training session without needing breaks...before you debate what is natural and what is not, useful or not, why don't you go lift rocks or go swim in rivers, or run, jump and climb trees without shoes on ?
You will immediately understand what is challenging and that debating online is the less challenging of all.
Because you can go on endlessly (because indeed it would never stop...) argue. What is good with the MN training is that for some time you barely don't think anymore and let a different kind of intelligence take over, train and develop. You'll see.
So I won't answer anymore here before it gets really boring. If you need more conceptual understanding, and I understand that need and will never think it is wrong, then be patient and again wait for the website soon online (within less than 2 months).
If you need more understanding from body experience, give a try to some natural training before you get tips on how to set up more methodical training sessions of your own when the site is online.
To me, you're asking too much about "why" and not enough about "how".
You will learn more about "why" and "how" when the website job is done.
Back to the project for now, train well.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 05:45:45 PM »
Whoever you are, there's always a risk whenever, wherever you train, most of the time, it is when one forget about it and takes things for granted that injury occur, unexpected. In my case, I actually knew very well what I was doing and that I was facing a dangerous obstacle. Sometimes the training has to be also about will and courage in addition to the only physical aspect, but this you know well already my friends ;-). It is also about dealing quietly, I'd say even peacefully with possible consequences and take full responsability for them without complaining. More than that : whatever happens, accept it and agree to welcome the experience as a favorable one, could it be painful or bothering. As from then, it consequently becomes a way to grow, and if you've grown on those things already, then a way to check out your inner strength and philosophy is still there, strong, deep. Because it is one thing to "think" you have "learned" some special mental strength or something, maybe through some inspirational readings, but this is only conceptual kind of knowledge. Experience only shows you crystal clear what and where you really are, here and now, through its specific difficulty or challenge.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 05:46:37 PM »
I understand that many people somehow personaly relate to the very little they've seen in that preview. I wish I could start answering questions, but since really the website will answer so many of them...gotta focus on that at the moment.
To be useful yes...useful to oneself of course, but the real meaning of "To be strong to strong to be useful" is "to be strong to be useful to others" !
Here's something I wrote about that some time ago :

"Now when the goal becomes to not only become stronger oneself but actually to become able to help others, it is obviously a change, an enlargement of purpose of training, so it logically and compulsorily will change the way you train and your outlook on training itself.
Think a little about that and you will see it makes a WHOLE difference."

Think of whatever is missing in your current training to actually reach or at least get closer to that goal.



And yeah, don't forget to be happy :-) ;-).

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 05:47:01 PM »
I'm currently negociating a big deal with "Dioor" and I see no problem being sponsored to do as long as :
_ I don't "do MN for the money" but do MN and "get money from it" (Yeah man how surprising !!! I was sitting there doing nothing else than what I love to do and for some "accidental" reason they come to me and give me money and stuff ! Wow I tell you what that was tooootally unexpected and unplanned ! :lmao: )
_ I'm good at what I do first, secondly I am original, thirdly I exploit the net, then...waiting for next steps hopefully coming soon...please hurry up I need fundations because if my foundations aren't strong, my career will fall, and I would kill myself if I was to fail being famous.

Now the only thing that bothers me is that I have yo wear those pink silk trunks with little golden accessories all the time because the contract I signed up for demands it.
I already noticed wearing them makes me a better Hebertist for sure, the only problem is it's actually not my favorite colors ! :lmao:

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 05:47:35 PM »
Bpl, first off, Parkour's motto is "Etre et durer" which means "to be and to last".
"To be strong to be useful" is Methode Naturelle's motto, since this method is both a physical and moral education method.
So from a parkour standpoint, the possibility of being helpful is not neglected, but was never placed as a prioritary goal, not even as a necessary one, but only as an option. Or you would have heard David and other parkour "pioneers" constantly remind people that they have to keep in mind the discipline was designed to eventually be able to help people or simply to become useful to others, which is not the case.
From an Hebertism standpoint, strenght and usefulness cannot be separated. They're intimately linked. It would be pointless to become strong if you don't aim that force to be helpful to your community, to other human beings, and do the good.
On the other hand, it would be pointless to claim to be useful if you're not strong. How could you help anyone, if first you can't be helpful to yourself because out of shape ?
Eventually, it leads us to ask one question, an important one...what is to be strong ?
Again, from an Hebertism standpoint, if a guy, let's say a weightlifter, has to suddenly run fast for 15 km but is out of breath after only one, could we say that man is actually strong ?
If a super runner has to climb a little cliff but get stuck, is he strong ?
If a "traceur" falls into the water and cannot swim, could we say he is actually strong ?
If swimmer can't defend himself since he's unable to fight properly, is he strong ?
If you can't resist bad weather and get sick all the time, are you strong ? If you can't cope with heat, if you suffer of vertigo, if you have no will, no courage and can't face challenging situations or dangerous ones, are you actually strong ?
Strength is a lot of things, all together. Like Hebert said, it is much better to reach an average level in everything than specializing in one or two disciplines but being totally weak in all others.
Some bad guy like a criminal with bad intentions could be very strong from an Hebertism standpoint, being fast, powerful, endurant, brave, resistant etc...now it is up to you to decide what's the point in being, or becoming strong. Is it an end in itself, or could you dedicate that strength to a higher goal, a good and positive one ?
It is not about being strong then possibly useful or the other way round.
"Be strong to be useful" IS the answer. But then it is not parkour, but Hebertism = Methode naturelle.

Got it ? ;-)

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 05:48:12 PM »
Obviously, there's many ways to help others, and it is so right that most problems people encounter in their daily lives are not life threatening but moreover related to psychological issues (or also financial ones for sure).
We're talking about real danger here, to be useful in such conditions, when vital issues are at stake, you must be strong physically and morally to actually be of any help.
Also, keep in mind that there's definitely a great interaction between mind and body, so a healthy body obviously helps a lot to have a healthier mind, AND vice-versa, so the training itself provides great benefits to one's daily life.
So great and very helpful people are not in shape at all.
Some very strong individuals are not helpful at all.
But anyways best is :
"Mens sana in corpore sano."

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2009, 05:48:54 PM »
"Any man(*), whoever he is, if he really wants to live his life to the full of his abilities, has towards himself some physical duties to fulfill, just as he has, in another point of view, some moral duties to perform and some social obligations to respect. These duties constitute physical morality. They can be embodied in a double formula: "to develop oneself and to preserve oneself"."

(*all humankind, man, woman, child, from birth to adulthood).


That's an excerpt of Hebert's work to support the considerations that follow.
Because to me that's where everything starts, not Hebert statement, but the universal law which inded every living creature depends on, from their birth to their death :
to develop oneself and to preserve oneself.

How do all living animals, including humans, to develop and preserve themselves ? They use their specific natural and utilitarian capacities.

What are natural and utilitarian physical capacities ?
It is all physical capacities of a given species that are instinctively developed from a young age to ensure the individual can reach autonomy quickly, this autonomy being their ability to preserve themselves whether on their own or as a part of a group within their own species.
So animals can't wait to develop, they can postpone this crucial development, it is a urgent necessity in order to survive. Most of this development therefore takes place before adulthood.

So living animals preserve themselves by getting nutriments that suits their specific metabolism, by maintaining optimum health, and by avoiding all forms of danger, including accidents and predators.
To develop and preserve themselves, fishes swim, to get food and escape dangers.
To develop and preserve themselves, birds walk and fly, to get food or escape dangers.
To develop and preserve themselves, frogs leap and swim, to get food and escape danger.
To develop and preserve themselves, pumas walk, run, jump, climb, balance and swim (always on all four limbs so it's obviously quadrupedal movements), to get food or escape dangers.
All of them may also have to defend themselves the best they can at some point. All of them may have to hide to escape predators...or better hunt if they're predators themselves.

To develop and preserve themselves, human beings walk, run, jump, balance, walk on all fours (quadrupedal movement), climb, lift, throw, swim and defend themselves. Human being used to be nomadic hunters-gatherers. A tiny minority of us are still living this primal way of life.
That's in natural conditions of life in fully natural environments.

What about the civilized, sedentary human beings currently living in our modern societies ?
We obviously don't need to hunt and gather to get food anymore. We do the grocery and push buttons instead. Sometimes, it just looks like Pavlov experiments. We don't have to develop these natural capacities anymore because of that. We don't have that necessity or instinct to impose those efforts to us anymore. A first consequence of this is that we don't fully develop our natural and utilitarian capacities during childhood. It is very frequent that we are being more or less but more than less restricted to spontaneously and playfully explore, and consequently develop, these natural abilities. It is then very usual that civilized human grown-ups are not physically built and that the level of development of these capacities is very low in comparison to the potential level our own nature
would actually allow us to reach.
But this is a direct consequence of not taken into account, neglecting, when not actually fighting, our own nature as human animals we are.
This is a direct consequence of what is an early and continuous conditioning to nowadays living standards and social behaviors.
It is a consequence of what can be seen as the self-domestication of the human kind.
We may however develop these capacities, most of the time very partially because of specialization, and not to an optimum level, through leisure or competitive sporty activities, or sometimes professional activities. Most of the time, the efforts provided in these activities derives from these natural movements but are not truly natural anymore.
Many people find no satisfaction in practicing these activities and are extremely sedentary compared to a human being living a natural life as we all used to live a few millenniums ago, before civilization and the settlement of populations.

So we don't need to hunt or gather anymore to preserve ourselves. It is not a necessity anymore. Our instinct to feed ourselves makes us gather food in supermarkets, by providing an indirect effort which is working for money, and to fill up shelves, cupboards, fridges and freezers to make this food available anytime.
What about avoiding dangers ?
We face them a lot on TV and in video games...more seriously, that is still a great since vital concern to all of us wherever we live and whatever lifestyle. Our modern environment is by some aspects much safer than a natural one. But it is by other sides much more dangerous, and both natural and urban/modern/technological threats combined makes a long list and a great variety of dangers : floods, tsunamis, hurricanes, freezing weather conditions or heat waves, volcanoes, mud slides, rocks falls, heavy rain, thunder strikes, wild animals attacks, motorized vehicles for pedestrians, motorized vehicles crashes, fires, toxic smokes, military bombings, terrorist attacks, accidental explosions, riots, all kinds of human aggressions, and so on...not to mention invisible viruses.
Lifesavers, police, firefighters, doctors and many other rescue teams and protection forces were created and specifically trained with modern gear and equipment to rescue and save others, which is undoubtedly a greatn thing. To preserve your life when you can't do it yourself, or with great difficulty.
Still, they can't be there anytime, everywhere, or soon enough.
Still, because of this absence, anyone may have to face and escape those dangers anytime, on one's own.
In such a case, and despite it is no guarantee anyways, a better physically and morally developed individual is in a much better condition to preserve oneself by reacting strongly to the situation, that someone which natural and utilitarian capacities which are vital ones, are not or very weakly developed.
It is a very obvious and logical consideration that ca hardly be questioned.

Some people are not thinking that the possibility to face danger can happen anytime, anywhere and to anyone. Some know but prefer to believe it won't ever happen to them. Others expect professionals to save their lives in every case.
One last category of people think that they should prepare to the eventuality of confronting some of these risky situations on their own, in case no assistance, professional or not, could immediately help them out. It doesn't mean they are willing these difficult situations to happen. It doesn't mean they're totally convinced their preparation will be sufficient to survive or stay safe. For instance, a violent car crash is brutal and totally unexpected, and it is a situation over which one's has very few control. Life is greatly at stake, still one feels powerless.
Thing is, you still need a sufficient development of your natural capacities, including mental qualities of action, to be in a better condition to preserve yourself, independently of the use of any rescue equipment or gear, independently of any human assistance. Some situations, actually most of them, will require this good condition.
Of course, knowing how to use rescue equipment is a precious advantage, but when it is not available or out of reach which is the case most of the time, the only "equipment" left is one's own body, as well as one's own mental capacities to fully and efficiently use these physical capacities to escape that danger.

We saw that we don't have instinct and necessity anymore to push and guide us to develop these capacities.
We've too noticed that their gradual development that spontaneously starts at a young age in every human child of any country is greatly restricted and consequently impaired most of the time because of parental education and later on because of a sedentary lifestyle along with a totally unbalanced, unnatural and unhealthy diet. To catch up with our natural needs for complete and useful physical development, we therefore have to replace lost instinct and necessity by something else that fits what we've become : a purpose and a method.

As we've seen, a great majority of us, human beings with a modern way of life, don't need to be able to get food a natural way anymore, by gathering and hunting in the nature. Our preservation by finding food is not challenging anymore and doesn't require physical skills anymore (again, for most of civilized people living in a modern environment).
Being able to get food is not a purpose as long as finding this food doesn't compulsorily require natural physical capacities anymore.
Apart from some jobs, having fun, trying to lose weight and get fit, or compete with others are the most common reasons motivating people to provide physical efforts which are most of the time not natural or utilitarian ones. The purpose being not a vital concern, it is therefore secondary. It's not directly about preserving oneself.
However, escaping danger in the absence of an adequate vehicle, modern equipment or police, army and professional rescuers is still a great concern whenever danger arises.
Within our modern global civilization, the vital purpose of being able to preserve oneself by avoiding or escaping danger is maybe the only one left and therefore becomes logically obvious to the people concerned by such a preservation.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 05:50:41 PM »
About more than 20 years ago in France a young man, David Belle, was greatly influenced by his fascinating father, a former military officer and elite firefighter. His father had been trained as a young boy by the Methode Naturelle in Vietnam, a physical and moral education concept created and developed decades ago in France as well, and that explains that the necessity of developing and preserving oneself is a law of all living creatures, and as regarding human beings, can even be called a "physical duty". It also believes this development should be maintained throughout life and serve an higher ethical and altruistic purpose which is to be useful to oneself and be useful to others.
Encouraged by his father, David started to train these natural and vital capacities.
David trained enormously, most of the time on his own and with his own instinctive method which he refined along the years. He would create imaginary situations of danger and would challenge himself to escape them with real skills, real efforts, and sometimes real risk. He gradually but continuously pushed his capacities to a truly amazing, admirable and inspiring level. A fascinating level to many people, just like his own dad was fascinating him.
A handful of young teenagers started to train with David, learning from him, before his older brother invited them to show their skills during a firefighter event. Medias started to talk about him and his original group...He later decided to make it a discipline on its own and gave it a name : parkour.

Though, he was never really preoccupied to define his practice, since he was so totally focused on the practice, the satisfaction it provides and the personal progress he could make. He was, and still is, exploring life in various directions. He's a lot living his own life his own way, like being in his own world.
The confusion about the discipline he created, is not only due to his lack of concern about the issue, and lack in providing a clearly defined purpose and training method. The confusion is mainly due to all people from all over the world that tried to define it with their own perception and understanding, as well as their own expectation, and in the absence of any official and organized guidance from him.
This confusion was and is still the source of numerous arguments among members of the practitioners community.
Some tried to include artistic elements and make this aesthetics's concern part of the purpose. It finally led to a new separate hybrid practice called "freerunning".
Still, the useful aspect, which is the utility aspect, utilitarian side and function, is absolutely recurrent in David's words when asked or interviewed about parkour. On his official blog, the discipline was recently qualified as a "utilitarian sport".
It is indeed a natural heritage directly coming from the Methode Naturelle's conception, together with the firefighting "tradition" of the Belle's family that is all about saving lives, all about preserving life.

Preservation...this is what a utilitarian capacity is all about.
Preserving one's life. Help preserving other members of our own species.

Which require a training. That training is parkour. It is surely not the only kind of training intended to help preserve human life. Firefighters know that well. It is one of them, and it is one of the most efficient, because it is fully functional and most of the time greatly close to reality situations. It is also one that anyone can practice without having to become a professional.
The method of training, at least so far, was as well never clearly defined. However, the need to follow a predefined training method is not really a demand from the current community of traceurs. Let's say it's a part of the freedom one's may enjoy training parkour, according to each individual preferences, needs or experience. According to each individual, this method can be well defined and scientific or totally intuitive, influenced by martial arts or athletics, gymnastics or fitness methods. It's up to people. What's for sure is that it has to emphasize a lot on natural movements, since it is training natural capacities. Some more analytical and decomposed movements still can provide good additional benefits to the overall condition.

Now I am going to sum things up :
Humans are living beings that need to develop and preserve themselves just like any other living being.
One preserves oneself by getting food and escaping dangers. In order to manage these tasks, one needs to develop physical and mental capacities specific to one's own species, and to maintain them as long as possible.
Our civilized life makes it possible to not compulsorily have to develop these capacities to get food.
However they are still entirely useful and indispensable to escape dangers, whether one's living in a natural or urban environment and in the absence of immediate assistance.
Since we've lost a lot of our instinct
and mainly follow our consciousness, as humans we need to define a conscious purpose to perform efforts that are not imposed by instinct of absolute necessity anymore.
David trained to be able to escape dangers he was imagining. Even though it wasn't an elaborated and fully defined purpose, the simple purpose of saving his life was there and preceded the intentional training. This training had him fully develop some of the most important human natural and utilitarian capacities, basically in order to prepare himself to escape dangers and consciously or not obey to the universal law of all living creatures : preserve oneself.


Therefore the core purpose of parkour can be expressed in a core conception as follows :

Parkour is a utilitarian discipline (*) which purpose is training to develop important natural and vital human physical capacities including walking, running, jumping, quadrupedal movement, balancing and climbing, along with qualities of action (*) in order to prepare oneself to escape life-threatening situations and thus preserve oneself.

(*or sport)
(*which are mainly courage, will and self-control)

The fact that not all of the human natural and indispensable physical capacities are part of the training is due to the specificity of David's practice and conception of parkour as a discipline, at least so far.
He may train them occasionally and separately, still he never stated it was part of his practice, never displayed any image of himself training them and tagged as "parkour", and didn't train them enough to reach an equal level he developed in other natural capacities as listed above.
However, these missing capacities prove to be essential to preserve oneself as well in specific circumstances, and can be trained separately.

The core conception concerns all of practitioners.
Additional conceptions of parkour or related to it are numerous within the parkour community, but whatever additional philosophical conception is strictly personal and doesn't compulsorily concern everyone. They may fit one's own overall conceptions of life but don't necessarily suit or match others conceptions. They may fulfill one's personal expectations, quest, ambitions, plans, visions or dreams.
They may be influenced by other disciplines, other philosophies, by various cultures, by movies as well.
However reduced to the core conception and apart from it, the need for sophisticated explanations and elaborated philosophy is a personal matter. It can be a part of what can be called "your" parkour.
It is the so-called "parkour is what you make of it".
To me, it is parkour "folklore".

In conclusion, train like if you life depends on it. Because it actually may seriously depend on it one day. Some people may not correctly appraise the importance of these capacities and their development. It all depend on their own conception of their own life and how to better live it, optimize it, protect and maintain it. Every people have their own understanding, and consequently their own priorities.
To people practicing parkour, the core motivation should be to preserve themselves by preparing to situations that will most threat their lives : dangerous situations.
Most of all other additional motivations are really acceptable, could it be the feeling of freedom in the first place, the well-being, the fitness, the fun, the graceful movements, the sharing with others, the feeling to be someone else or some kind of warrior, hero or superstar, loosing weight, getting in shape, learning about one's own limits, and so on...all very acceptable. Still not any is part of the core purpose.
Recognition, impressing others, making money...why not ? Your choice, as long as it is respectful to others, and not using others. Even further from the original and true purpose.
But if ONE thing had to remain, one purpose, one goal in mind...preserve yourself, and prepare to it.
Parkour is one of the great disciplines that will help you achieve this natural and fundamental goal.
Call it a necessity, an instinct or a moral duty...
In the "old times", I've heard my personal "master" often say : "we live, we die".
The later the better.
Enjoy life people. Life rules...(nah, everybody knows FUN rules !!! ;-) )


PS : I've written this in one shot late at night. Tonight...It's been a long, very long time I've watched people, including myself sometimes, endlessly arguing about parkour in a more or less constructive and respectful manner.
This is my personal vision of parkour.
Again, this my personal vision of parkour. Right ? It might not please some people, or might not match their own.
Forums were created for us to communicate and share. This is what I do, with my own purpose...no, not that one again biggrin.gif, simply the purpose of helping by contributing as constructively as I can.
This is an essay to share with you not all, but most of my conceptions relating to parkour, in the clearest manner I could. I thought I had to do that at some point. Tonight was that moment...still I do have lots of other considerations I'd like to share as well with the community, regarding commercial aspects, competition, and future. It will come surely...at some point.
Anyways, for now I sincerely hope it will help people. :-).
It's dawn now, and I'm off to bed.

Erwan aka Hebertiste.

Edit :

Thanks to discussing that core concept (ion), it has evolved to the following versions :

Parkour = utilitarian training of physical and mental capacities, to preserve oneself in dangerous situations that require efficient movement on land.

That one works well too :

Parkour = utilitarian training of physical and mental capacities to get out of risky situations that require efficient movement on land.

This is not a definition of parkour, this is my personal core concept of parkour.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 05:51:22 PM »
I'd like to explain another very important point here, because I'm a little bored, not with those kinds of question since new practitioners of parkour come here to get answers, but with answers that don't explain anything. So you guys say "yes it's good for legs" and that's it. And you will end up with the same kind of questions over and over "is this exercise good for parkour", "good for arms", "good for joints" and whatever.
To me it is a common misconception, at least from a parkour standpoint, when people say that such or such exercise is good for legs or arms or shoulders or whatever like if it was a goal, not a consequence. You're talking like if you were therapists.
An isometrics exercise(static posture), since we're talking about one of them, is good to be able to stand a static position. This aptitude is a UTILITY aptitude that should be trained for what it is and not for some approximative physical benefit. It shouldn't be done for secondary reasons. It's like running, you don't run because it's good for your cardio-respiratory condition or to lose weight, you run because you want to be able to run, you want that physical ability, it is the real goal, and a better cardio-respiratory condition or a possible loss of weight are natural consequences, not goals. At least is it the way it should be seen from a parkour standpoint, because parkour is not some kind of therapy or some get--in-shape method or well-being discipline. Parkour is a UTILITY/UTILITARIAN discipline, training for real functional aptitudes in reality situations.
Someone running to lose weight isn't running to prepare for a utility situation but for a better health or well-being in mind, and the ability to run is a secondary consequence, THAT is a totally different mindset, and for a practitioner of parkour, that would be the wrong standpoint. But from a parkour standpoint, means from a UTILITY standpoint, these benefits shouldn't be seen as goals but as natural outcomes, the real targeted benefit being the utility aptitude, that will be efficient and truely useful in a reality situation.
So back to isometrics, it seems people won't even see the utility of such or such posture, so will think they "have" to do it to "condition" for some sort of indirect benefit. "Yeah do it it's good for your legs", is that a real answer ? Does it give someone a real purposeful motivation to do it ? Probably it will instead be seen as a chore deprived of any fun.
THAT is the misconception, because the ability to stand the posture IS the benefit.
So instead of seing them like if they were fatigues, you should be thinking that you are not conditioning but training the REAL thing.
Because you never know if having to stay for a long time in such a static position, could it be against a wall to help someone, hanged to a very high ledge and waiting for rescue, is not going to be a direct and vital necessity.
I never "condition" simply because I always condition as a result but not as a goal. Whatever effort, movement, posture, training, is seen as a possible situation, a possible effort I could have to provide one day in a difficult situation, and I'm training the utility aptitude to just do it and I know my body will adapt naturally, it will "condition". I'm not conditioning for the sake of conditioning, it is not some sort of separated chore different of the "actual" training. Whatever I do is the real training of the real aptitude.
You think pistols are conditioning ? Wrong. It is a utility natural move and you're training to get the physical aptitude to do it, repeatedly or not. Conditioning is the afterwards adaptation that you can't control, it is the body intelligence that will do it while you'll be busy doing something else, or sleeping. And that goes for everything.

So Alex123, yes it is a good training, it is training a utility aptitude, that of being able to stand such a position longer, without shaking, without tapping too much into your energy if you have to run and jump after that for instance. It will help your balance too, which is too a utility natural aptitude. That it is "good for legs" means barely nothing from a parkour standpoint, means from the utility discipline standpoint that parkour is.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 05:52:00 PM »
Hebertiste, why do you train in the natural method? How did you end up deciding this is the best way to train for you?

It's very simple, I love nature biggrin.gif.

I'll try to be short... rolleyes.gif but I have to sum things up a little.
Why am I training a natural way and what means "natural".
I explain natural from an evolutionary perspective. Human beings in the wild were mostly generalists, not specialists, they were all-terrains opportunists for their survival. I am, just like you, the outcome of this long, long, long line of people. In this modern lifestyle where almost ANY physical effort has become a pure option, I feel the surge to feel alive and healthy, able to move, face a wide range of situations with enough capability and enough adaptability. In the almost total absence of danger or physical challenge (imposed, not chosen), a deep, evolutionary drive in me tells me, and constantly reminds me to stay alert and ready. I have paradoxically no anxiety because I enjoy this feeling of readiness. But capacities is an either-or proposition: you use them or lose them.
Why is there, among the minority of physically active individuals, people swimming exclusively, others only running, others solely climbing, others just lifting or throwing, others fighting or jumping and nothing else?
Why is there so much specialization? I cannot reply about others motives (even though I have my point of view on this matter), but personalyI do not want to be a specialized athlete. It is obvious that given the super wide range of natural capacities we all hold potentially, there is MUCH to train in all areas, but this is what I enjoy. It is as well obvious that since I do not specialize, I cannot compare my performance with ultra-specialized athletes. Consequently, if it was to be compared, the swimmer will swim better than me, the runner run better, the climber climb better, the high level traceur move and pass obstacles with more ease or even pass obstacles that would let me stuck there etc...I have no problem with this because in my perspective the goal is equalization, NOT specialization. It also to improve oneself, not to compete.
On the other hand, probably none of these specialized athletes would have exactly the same ability I have to deal sufficiently well with about any kind of natural physical action in real-life situations (governed by practicalness and not conventional sporty rules). However, even though they train for other purpose, many special forces militaries would have such similar and some even higher abilities because they also train exclusively for practical situations and it is their job to do so.
All this to explain that physical conditioning all depends on your goal. There is no one type of physical conditioning, even in the same sport or discipline. Even in the army elite task force.
The best is the one that suits you best and allows you to reach your objectives.
Thing is, despite the rather complete appearance of parkour, parkour is not a complete discipline when we think about all the actual natural capacities of the human being. In that sense, parkour is as well a specialized discipline, that you like it or not. More complete than most others and that's why we love it so much wink.gif, but still specialized.
It is also obvious that there is a current trend that seems to tend towards an impoverishment of parkour movements because it is a frequent thing that people want to specialize in the movements they excell at. Some sort of specialization within the specialization.

Now I'm going to really answer your question.
I don't need "physical conditioning drills". All simply because anything I do is some form of conditioning. And because I don't specialize. Specialization breeds weaknesses in areas that are neglected. Hence the need for "physical conditioning", most of the time made of pretty boring conventional, mechanistic, repetitive, isolated movements focusing on specific, isolated parts in order to "work them out".
Sorry but I'm very bored with this kind of thing. I also get easily bored having to count reps and series. I focus on sensations mainly and count not often. Sensations are much more reliable than numbers. THe body doesn't know how to count. I prefer the real thing. Real, natural movements that are multi-joint, multi-plan, multi everything. And free. Not freestyle, just performed freely, or according to what a specific situation demands.
Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands, if that rings a bell. What you find in MN is all simply this SAID principle. You want to be able to jump? Jump. To run? Run. To lift? Lift. To fight? Fight.
If you run long, you will adapt to running long distances. If you run fast, your body will adjust naturally to better sprint. Running on difficult, uneven surfaces will prepare your body to this type of challenge. Same goes for other capacities. THe good thing about focusing on situations and the capacity they require is that you don't have to question yourself how to prepare your body. You just want to have your body do these things in a certain way and enough variety and trust it is going to adapt/prepare/condition in the process. That's why it is a "natural method".
I don't need physical conditioning drills because I don't need to compensate for specific lacks or weaknesses in my body.
When I deadlift or squat heavy not only I know that I'm improving my ability to lift, or carry, but I also know that I will kick an opponent with more power, run uphill or sprint faster etc...When I improve my neuromuscular intelligence by training agility, for instance in passing obstacles or moving close to the ground on all fours, I know it will be also beneficial for my grappling capacity (fighting skills).
I directly train for the kind of skill and adaptation I want. And since I train the whole range of these natural capacities, I don't need to worry about possible weaknesses, need for compensation and possible need for "physical conditioning drills".
They can be funny to do sometimes. They may be helpful in case I'm lacking of space and time and want a brief and super intense session out of the blue when I'm too busy or on travel. Apart from that, I'm just bored with this kind of approach.
BUT this is me, ok? Just my way. If done adequately, such exercises can provide great results. It all depends on your objectives and your perspective as well.

Train well whatever your way wink.gif.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 05:53:52 PM »
Why is swimming not ever seen incorpirated into parkour runs? It seems that if you are trying to escape someone you may have to swim at times, so a good traceur should show nice speed when swimming. right?

Swimming is (apparently) not part of parkour since water is not seen as an obstacle in parkour so far.
My concept is that there is more obstacles to cross than what we think.
For instance, I always recall that distance is the first obstacle of all. A "flat" one, though running up and down hills is not quite "flat". If you have to run for 2 hours, or even more, or 50 kms or more, you should be able to do it.
In many emergency cases, distance will be the most prioritary or difficult obstacle to clear. Long distance running skill is important, definitely.
Water is one of them, a liquid obstacle. What indeed if there's water across you way ? What if you must swim underwater a 50 m long distance ? Isn't that an obstacle that require only your human abilities to go from A to B sh*t ? Think of A to B when it's time to save your own life...
What if you simply fall into the water ? SWIM.
Same with air. Air, lack of oxygen, toxic smokes in a corridor or tunnel to cross can be an obstacle. If you must run that 100 m long tunnel without breathing or you'll die, better is to be trained for it.
Same with shoes. What if you were to loose your shoes ? Can you still run ? What if the ground is frozen, or very hot ? Or full of sharp stones ?
If parkour to you is only reproducing specific moves you've seen on vids, you're totally missing the point, because you're just limiting your practice to what you think it is. But parkour is not only the moves you can put a name on, guys wake up !
You must make sure what you train for is going to potentially save your life or other's when needed, so train your body and mind for it, and don't limit that training to what you only know. It is all about adaptation to about any situation. You must think of circumstances that were not expected.
Again, if you loose sight of this purpose when you train, you're only having fun. What pushed David beyond his own limits when he was a teen was that he was always imagining such demanding situations. He was creating them in his head, then had to find solutions to escape the fictive danger he had imagined. I know because he told me.
His dad was a first a soldier, then became a great firefighter, rescuer, lifesaver. He was trained by the Methode naturelle, and trained and inspired his own son using the same method, which motto is "Etre fort pour etre utile", to be strong to be useful.
Strong means complete, able to run, jump, climb, lift heavy objects, swim, fight (self-defense), to be fast, agile, endurant, brave etc...both physically and mentally strong. Useful is about helping others.
Parkour is simply a modern and mainly urban declination of this discipline and philosophy.
Don't limit your practice to only its visual aspect, and don't limit your philosophy to what only suits you.
It's no about fun, parkour is so much more than that.
If you don't get it, you're lightyears away from understanding its true essence.

PS : and in my humble opinion don't trust so much those people supposed to "help" you with parkour but actually using you to make money with the companies that target you guys as simple potential customers.
Yes, they are using you, as cynical and simple as that.
Proof ? If they weren't to sell anything to you (or to those companies that put ads on their websites), they would NOT exist.
You may think PAWA is kind of slow, not enough reactive or whatever, but at least they and Parkour.net don't market you guys. Their mission is purely educational, when others purpose is 95 % mercantile (not talking about the guys hired by them, but about the CEOs) and 5 % financial. Or the other way round...:-D

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 05:54:28 PM »
Completedness can never be achieved indeed. It is also so sad to see that whenever you stop training in a certain area (so you can make progress in an other one) you're going to regress more or less...I'm quite aware of this matter, myself training in many different ways to get multiple abilities.
It is also true that there is for every discipline so high standards (because of super specialized athletes performing amazing things each in their own specific field) that it might make you feel not so good...because to become greater you must specialize, dedicate enough amount of time and energy, of yourself, then you have no or much less time or energy to train in other areas, then how can you become or remain "complete" ?
In H?bert's view, it is important to be complete and useful. All your training must aim to that, complete training, useful training. It means it must help you face every situation of daily life, but also to cope with dangerous or emergency ones. You're not going to train because it's good for your back, or for your shape, or to loose weight, or to impress others, or because it's only fun or because it's the new underground craze, or because you can make a video, and so on...no. You train always for a useful purpose, obviously to become or stay healthy, but also to educate yourself, your body, your mind. To get a real life.
This is the reason why he was so interested in education versus sports. Sports to him was show-business, competition, elitism and specialization, all bad things to him.
You might be a champion, for instance a great swimmer. But what if you cannot run ? You can be a very powerful man, but what if you too cannot run well, or swim, or climb ? You could be a great fighter, but what if you suffer of vertigo and would drown in a river ? The answer to this issue is that it is much more important and useful to be "competent" in everything than to be excellent in one or two areas but poorly skilled in all the other kind of abilities that make a man complete.
What is complete then ? It Hebert's concept, it is all natural skills that any human being should have developed from childhood to adulthood, and that are things that a human can naturally do when raised close to nature, close to a natural way of life :
walking, running, jumping, equilibrium, quadrupedal movement, climbing, lifting, throwing, then swimming and fighting (self-defense) and also adapt and resist to difficult atmospherical conditions, or lack of food etc... But to be complete also requires to be brave, have a fighting spirit, but also to be altruist, respectful to others, all values that makes a person really strong and helpful to others.
You don't need to be an expert in any of those areas, but only to be able to perform any of these activities at let's say an "competent", sufficient level. And above all, you must not forget that all this is about "to be strong to be useful".
If all your training doesn't allow you to help others when it's needed, in Hebert's opinion it is then pointless. Altruism is a very dear quality in Hebert's heart.
Education through training means leading people to understand the importance of such values. Training is not the end or the goal itself. It is just a way to reach a higher goal.

You may ponder on this following Hebert's quote :

"It resides not only in the muscles and the breath, but above all in the "energy" which is used, the will which directs it and the feeling which guides it."

So this philosophy might help you reach a deeper parkour practice, if you wish so...

And yes, again, F****K the obvious commercial exploitation of parkour by websites that only want to make bucks out of us, the "little people". All you need to train is your will and courage.
You have the power to contribute to counterstrike this sh****t by simply think and not buy it, before it ruins everything.
BTW and again, Parkour.net doesn't sell anything, doesn't promote any commercial product, doesn't use you to make money.
There is other local websites like that deserving much more attention that those commercial websites I won't mention...you know them all.

Train well...

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 05:54:55 PM »
Res, I understood you. For different our views are on this matter, I wish you good luck anyways :-).

Kaito : summer is the perfect time to swim a lot (sea, lakes, quiet rivers) and then it's free. Yes it's true, go from running to swimming then running again (and maybe on and on that way) requires adaptation. For instance, the blood circulation is a little different since you go from a vertical position to an horizontal one and back. IN the beginning, you might feel dizzy, especially when you come out of the water. Breathing is different as well. Swimming requires lots of relaxation to be efficient.
Last point but not the less, how do you swim with clothes and shoes ON ? If you get rid of them, how do you cope (with other obstacles, when all wet, maybe no shoes on anymore) when you're out of the water ?
That's thinking about unusual situations that simple FORCES you to adapt and find a solution. You've got a right not to think of such situations, and say for instance that it is very likely to never happen. Why would you train for something that might never happen ? Then why do you train parkour for Huh?

Guardian, you wrote :
" I see you people debating wheter swimming is part of Parkour. YOU just don't get it , LEARN TO COPE AND TRAIN WITH WIND, SAND, WATER AND FIRE. You might need those skills one day. I don't know, maybe to HELP somebody!!!! you guys really think you'll spend your whole life walking on concrete, in cities..."

THAT is an important outlook, very !!! Now, you're talking about something that is dear to me, you're talking about elements.

Whether you're in the nature or in an urban environment, elements are everywhere, always.
Adaptation to those elements is one of the keys to go further in training than only making the "official" moves of parkour, and "treating" your movements with such names as tic-tac or whatever...:-D.
Learning to train with elements for instance means maybe you'd go train with no shirt on despite the cold outside, or despite the rain. It means you're going to take your clothes off and dive into that lake. It means you're going to feel the air, maybe train lacking air (apnea), and realize how much air and breathing is important. Air, just like water, is element. It means maybe you're going to feel the ground not through your shoes, but through your natural sole, your skin, barefoot. Lots of natural sensations, and perceptions.
In fact it also means you're able and READY to experience some discomfort untill you find comfort where you thought you'd never find yourself at ease.
Eventually, it means you make ONE with the Universe, and that this time it is not only a conceptual thought in your mind you think is beautiful because you've read it in a book, but a feeling you've found by yourself, a feeling you've "paid the price for", a feeling of gratitude and intimate connection with the Universe which you're a part of.
Yes, something real that you actually experience, not think of. The more you think of it, the further you get from it.
This is "Etre dans le vrai".

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 05:56:05 PM »
Kaito, there's a real difference between training and face an actual difficult situation.
All parameters (you'd have to cope with) that you mention are part of the training. You'll catch a cold if you're not trained to adapt to cold, also if your alimentation is bad.
Swimming with clothes on is difficult, requires a specifical training, but the first thing to do if you ever fall into the water is to get ridden of your shoes, then clothes. That's why it's good also to train not to wear too much clothes in the winter, and resist cold. It is possible to keep your shoes if you tie them together and put the pair around your neck, if you think you'll compulsorily need them after swimming. But it slowers the speed. Obviously, if you're not used to run barefoot, it is crucial to keep them...but if you're trained, you just cope with all these things. All depending on the situation. You're not facing these situations, you're imagining them and creating the circumstances (or partly) that are as much similar to those situations so if they ever get to happen, you're as ready as possible to go througout the danger.
If parkour is training also to survive a dangerous situation, why would you train to only specific kind of danger or obstacle ?
You won't loose you $$$ shoes when training, but if one day you have to get ridden of them to save your life, will you think twice about it ?

--- --- --- ---

At least if you can swim, it's already good :-D.
Let's say it's not about extreme survival skills, it's not about surviving for days alone in the jungle.
Just to be able to go beyond common obstacles using only your body and mind. Isn't water a very common obstacle ? If using ONLY the possibilities of the human body, doesn't it mean you should be able to cope even if (almost) naked and no shoes on ?

--- --- ---

Kaito, yes, you're right, there's always a balance to find, it is absoluetely true.

"i just stated that you dont jump in a lake with all your clothes on to train for when it may happen once... you just train to swim.."

Don't you train doing sdc, sdb and else in case it may happen once ? isn't it what you explain to people questionning you about why you do such weird things ?
Why would it be that different, just becasue you'd never thought of it before ?
Now, if you never train in cold water, never train swimming underwater to hold your breath long enough, if you don't swim that well even without clothes on, think how it's going to be difficult if you must cross that river fast enough when it's in the night, cold water, clothes and shoes on, that maybe you've got to hold your breath enough long to be able to take everything off before you even can start swimming properly. Or swim througout that flooded corridor without breathing. Yes, all unsual, unlikely situations, just like the situations you train parkour for : unsual, unlikely, but potentially dangerous, likely to happen to you even though there's not that many chances.
There's always a higher kind of danger or difficulty that can be encountered or imagined for sure. Obviously it is always possible to train for even more extreme situations. It is up to everyone to set the "limits" and personal goals. But...
It may take less than a minute for you to die in the water if you're not trained at all. I said distance is the first obstacle to cross, I was wrong. Lack of air is.
Swim if you can, swim if you wish...

--- --- ---

So my little apnea training of this afternoon :

Swimming underwater without fins :

6 x 25m relaxed, 33" average + 20 to 30" statical before emerging.
4 x 25m, fast 25"
1 x 50m = 1'03" (test)

Nothing impressive. I can't train very regularly. But I have a sufficient notion of what I coud do in case I must swim underwater.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 05:56:34 PM »
Kaito

First off, unless you're using at least a rope, a depth gauge, how can you tell you're diving 25 m ?
Secondly what you or above all the way you do is very dangerous. Your whole body needs to slowly adpat.
I've trained once with Loic Leferme in Villefranche-sur-mer (http://www.divernet.com/news/stories/loic011104.shtml) and he told me many things.
When you see "black" like you say, it means you're risking a black-out". Black-out in itself is not drowning, but obviously if you ever get unconscious while underwater, guess what...you're going to breathe, get water in your lungs and then drop like a stone to the bottom of the sea.
Training that way, not mentioning you're then on your own (were you ?) cannot be called training, but suddenly pushing your limits dangerously without proprer preparation and sufficient knowledge and then risking your life or physical integrity.
Before you go deeper, first you must ensure your capacity of both statical (without moving) and dynamical (swimming horizontaly underwater while holding your breath) apnea.
Because if you can swim only 30 m dynamical for instance, it means you can't dive deeper than 15m (15 m x 2) and that you're already pushing your limit.
If you can hold your breath for let's say 2'30, it means you shouldn't dive longer than 1', since not only you're going to swim down instead of simply not moving, but also the deeper the colder, and the colder the water is, the shorter your capacity to hold your breath is, plus the effect of pressure and stress.
So that's lots of things you seem to not be aware of, and I don't mention every other problem you could encounter that could damage your health.
Try to learn first before you do such things. Every summer, young people die that way, and also good apneists (hunters). It is one of the most dangerous sports.
Regarding your cramp, after some time spend in the water, it is a vey common thing. Also because you're not used to swim, so you don't relax your muscles enough, which is one of the prioritary keys to swim well and long. Lack of water (drinking water) being also one of the main reasons for cramps.
I hope it helps...

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 05:57:15 PM »
I did a 20 m my first try whith Lo?c, with no special training. I went down "immersion libre" (only pulling down with both arms on the rope) and used the fins to go back up. But that day it was cold and windy, which makes things harder.
But there was a girl next to me using a monofin (like a whale tail) that did easily a 40 m. Lo?c did more than 100 m of course...so it is amazing what can be achieved with proper training. Lo?c explains that when he tried diving first (apnea) he couldn't do more than 15 m, now he can do something like 175 m.
But Patrick Musimu from Belgium did a 209 m...
Yes these guys are doing amazing things, extremly impressive and requiring lots of training and dedication. It is totally inspiring to me and to many other people.
However, and this is a personal choice, I prefer to be like I said before "average" in everything than specialized in one. Plus, there's not lots of chances, though not impossible who knows after all, that I must reach such depths one day in order to save my life.
So I know I could easily reach like 12 m, it let me some options for instance in case the car I'm in crashes deep into a river.
But I'll train some more deep diving in the summer ! :-)

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 05:57:44 PM »
QUOTE
and another opinion..more training less talking smile.gif


For some people, more reading better understanding, better understanding better training ;-).
I'm not here to debate. I'm here to share, I'd be glad if what I share is helping others, just like others share and help me. It is a very basic and human activity.
Lack of understanding led and is still leading many people to low quality or potentially harmful training, or unappropriate mindset.
Meaning and understanding is a prioritary thing. You may learn much by yourself and by simply practising, it is obviously the best way. But how can you train efficiently if you have no understanding and no meaning ?

Zorak, it all depends on your views on what education is.
When you train, you're educating yourself. When you get trained (if ever), someone is educating you. When you understand something, whatever the source of this understanding comes from (yourself, someone, a book, a movie, a song, a post on a forum, a quote carved on a stone, a message from outer space :-D...), you're still learning and making progress with your education.
As long as it is focused on making progressing so you become a better person, stronger, wiser, more useful...it ain't waste of time.
As usual, everywhere there's a balance to find.

But truely, I do not believe in autism virtues.

Offline Gregg HIPK

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Re: Old "Hebertiste" [Erwan] comments from .net
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 05:58:34 PM »
^^ what if you have to save your life but you're hands are tied up, or you're really sick with high fiever, or you're suddenly blinded, or you haven't eaten or slept for days ? What if you have to choose between saving your mom or your dad but cannot save both ? How can you train for such things, or can you be sure what decision you would make ?
What if during your lifetime you never have to use any of the skills you've trained so hard for ?
If both your legs are broken, if you're trained enough maybe you can crawl fast enough on your hands or elbows to escape that fire...? Maybe yes...maybe not...
If both your arms are broken if you're trained enough maybe you still can swim well enough to reach a safety place ? Maybe yes...maybe not.
If for some reason I'm too weak, I might not be able to cope with the situation and then might die, that is certain, except if I'm rescued fast enough.
There is NO warranty that your training will ever save your life. Some people sometimes can save theirs with no specific training. All depending on the situation.
There is NO warranty you'll ever have to use your skills either...

I'm not different than you, I cannot read in the future.
If you worry that such a situation could occur, then try to imagine it and find the best solution(s) to cope with it. Be sure anyways that most kinds of trainings you could do will help you even in the worst situations, so it's always better train than not preparing at all right ?
No guaranty. Life is not guaranted, ever, will never be. Train as you wish, it's all UP to you ;-).