Author Topic: powerade? (and other post workout drinks)  (Read 11755 times)

Offline Shawn Meilicke

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powerade? (and other post workout drinks)
« on: May 29, 2009, 08:26:51 PM »
i got a bottle of it today...
ive never really looked at whats in it, but when i did i noticed that high fructose corn syrup is hte second ingredient on the list...

isnt that supposed to be a good drink for you?

--we have gone to the topic of which type milk is better to drink PWO--
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 10:05:34 AM by shawn7656 »
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Offline tombb

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2009, 09:00:17 PM »
Use the search function, this has been covered in a lot of threads already.

Yes, it's a decent post-workout drink, so it's good for you for that.

It's basically water with a lot of sugar and electrolytes.  Both of those things are really good during or right after a workout, and bad if you just drink it like water. HFCS is nothing special, it's just the same sugar you find in fruits, except it's much faster absorption without fibers, so it's the the same as honey (minus the vitamins etc).  As post-workout, it is again even better/healthier than table sugar after a workout, when you need energy fast, and worse than sugar at other times when you could be overwhelmed by too much fast-absorption sugar if you take it in large amounts when you don't need it.

Offline FastGuppy

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2009, 07:03:22 AM »
I'm not 100 percent sure but powder gatorade has little or no HCFS.
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Offline Shawn Meilicke

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2009, 07:37:38 AM »
alright thanks....sorry for not looking that up first :/
"Though all the world may hate us, we are named.
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Re: powerade?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2009, 08:28:44 AM »
personally  i love powerade

lol

Offline Shawn Meilicke

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2009, 09:22:40 AM »
yeah it is pretty good :)
"Though all the world may hate us, we are named.
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Offline Steve Low

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2009, 03:41:13 PM »
I'm not 100 percent sure but powder gatorade has little or no HCFS.

It's all sugar....

--------------------------

If you can, EAT REAL FOOD.

Or at least someting with carbs, protein AND fat. chocolate milk (whole) is a good PWO drink.
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Offline tombb

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2009, 05:30:41 PM »

Or at least someting with carbs, protein AND fat. chocolate milk (whole) is a good PWO drink.
minus the fat, so skim milk is a much better post-workout drink.

Get your fats at other times, post-workout it just interferes with the needed fast-absorption and with what proteins and simple carbs or sugars need to do.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2009, 05:50:49 PM »
The studies done on milk as PWO showed whole milk as being more beneficial than skim, IIRC

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/milk-the-new-sports-drink-a-review-research-review.html
Quote from: Lyle McDonald
Moving on the paper first examines research on milk and resistance training adaptations. A number of studies have been performed from acute (single drink) studies to longer work looking at lean body mass gain. In one acute study, both fat free and whole milk were shown to improve protein synthesis following training; the whole milk worked better although the researchers weren’t sure why.

I would suggest to just go with your preference of taste if you need to decide between skim or whole....unless you are losing weight in which I would suggest skim to keep the calories down.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 05:55:08 PM by Chris Salvato »

Offline Steve Low

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2009, 06:08:31 PM »
Yep... some combo of protein/carbs/fat is good PWO.... so IMO just eat real food...

but choco whole milk works
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Offline tombb

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2009, 06:14:05 PM »
The studies done on milk as PWO showed whole milk as being more beneficial than skim, IIRC

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/milk-the-new-sports-drink-a-review-research-review.html
Quote from: Lyle McDonald
Moving on the paper first examines research on milk and resistance training adaptations. A number of studies have been performed from acute (single drink) studies to longer work looking at lean body mass gain. In one acute study, both fat free and whole milk were shown to improve protein synthesis following training; the whole milk worked better although the researchers weren’t sure why.

I would suggest to just go with your preference of taste if you need to decide between skim or whole....unless you are losing weight in which I would suggest skim to keep the calories down.
The website you link doesn't have any reference to the study or paper they mention, and until I can look at the actual study I can't say much, especially since there is no logical mechanism for that and because sometimes these summary websites are not so good at interpreting or reporting results.

In fact, from that wording you quote it's not even clear that milk in that study was taken immediately post-workout. It just says it was taken once a day (acute).
So for example if it was taken once several hours before the workout (not ideal), then the extra fat would probably be better than fat-free just by slowing down digestion into exercise time. But it would still be worse than fat-free right after workout.

If you can find the study you think they refer to, it would be easier to interpret exactly what they mean rather than just having to take their word for what the data might mean. Until then I don't think you should consider that statement to hold much value.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2009, 06:34:35 PM »
If you can find the study you think they refer to, it would be easier to interpret exactly what they mean rather than just having to take their word for what the data might mean. Until then I don't think you should consider that statement to hold much value.

I'll look for the link...but Lyle is an extremely highly regarded resource on matters such as these.  I probably don't even have access to the studies that he has access to because I am not a member of any journal or article database.  His word is good enough for me.  Thats like telling me to cite physics papers after I quote a lecture from Stephen Hawking.  *shrugs*

As for no mechanism being known: there is significant data showing that longer durations of elevated blood AA levels is more beneficial.  The main reason milk is more beneficial than Whey Isolate is the more prolonged elevation of blood AA levels due to slower absorption of the Casein in the milk (as well as the blunted absorption of the whey)

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2569005
Quote from: Brian D Roy
the elevation in blood amino acids was slower and remained elevated for a more prolonged period, providing a more sustained delivery of amino acids for skeletal muscle protein synthesis.


More fat = slower absorption = more prolonged period of elevated AA

-------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Found the paper.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16679981
Quote from: Elliot TA, Cree MG, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR, Tipton KD.
...
Net amino acid uptake for threonine was 2.8-fold greater (P < 0.05) for WM than for FM.
...
CONCLUSIONS: Ingestion of milk following resistance exercise results in phenylalanine and threonine uptake, representative of net muscle protein synthesis. These results suggest that whole milk may have increased utilization of available amino acids for protein synthesis.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 06:40:39 PM by Chris Salvato »

Offline tombb

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2009, 06:43:25 PM »
Actually I found one study comparing whole-milk vs fat-free milk after workout (1hr after, which is not as good as immediately after but still in the post-workout range). That might be what they referred to.

But the data actually shows that the extra calories are what is important and not the extra fat, and if anything fat-free with extra calories was higher than whole milk for protein uptake (85% being better than 80% but possibly just random variation):

METHOD: Three groups of volunteers ingested one of three milk drinks each: 237 g of fat-free milk (FM), 237 g of whole milk (WM), and 393 g of fat-free milk isocaloric with the WM (IM). Milk was ingested 1 h following a leg resistance exercise routine. Net muscle protein balance was determined by measuring amino acid balance across the leg. RESULTS: Arterial concentrations of representative amino acids increased in response to milk ingestion. Threonine balance and phenylalanine balance were both > 0 following milk ingestion. Net amino acid uptake for threonine was 2.8-fold greater (P < 0.05) for WM than for FM. Mean uptake of phenylalanine was 80 and 85% greater for WM and IM, respectively, than for FM, but not statistically different. Threonine uptake relative to ingested was significantly (P < 0.05) higher for WM (21 +/- 6%) than FM (11 +/- 5%), but not IM (12 +/- 3%).

So again, the comparison is between IM and WM, and there is no big difference when just look at aminoacid uptake as they did.

But in a way I stand corrected, in that I would have thought even just aminoacid uptake might be a bit reduced by the extra fat and that wasn't the case there, but it's definitely not better than milk with more sugar added to reach the same calories.

And there are other parameters like prevention of protein catabolism and positive protein balance and synthesis, rapid restoration of muscle glycogen stores etc that should again be better with fast digestion and higher insulin response, especially immediately after workout, and in stopping and reversing catabolism fast is of the essence.

Offline tombb

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2009, 02:06:18 PM »
Hey Chris, I didn't realize it but you replied in the 9 minutes  :o during which I was typing my reply so I didn't even see your post (I thought I was just posting twice in a row with no reply yet until after I looked at this thread again today).

It looks like we found the same article ;) but as you can see from my discussion it's not about the fat but just the calories, which is why they added that nice control of fat-free milk with non-fat calories added (I suspect it was a nice suggestion from the reviewers).

Also I was talking just about milk here, and both fat-free and whole milk have the same amount of casein, but whey and sugar still performs better as a post-exercise drink than just milk, because slow-absorption is a good thing at all other times but not right after a workout, so milk is still good enough but would be even better with no casein, more whey and more sugar.

Post-workout is just a very different situation. It's like for say large amounts of adrenaline and electrical shocks, which are normally not good for your heart, except when you need to restart it in which case they are the best thing to do at that very moment for that particular need.

You don't care about the prolonged period of elevated AA there because you especially want to spike it right at the critical and short post-workout window of increased absorption. And they are removed from the bloodstream at a much greater rate at that time so you really need to do the most to push in more AA and energy faster right away.

A couple of hours after the end of your exercise and PWO drink you can certainly go back to slow-absorption protein, carbs etc and be better for it, but immediately post-workout they would be taking away from the much more needed fast absorption ones.
If you want we can discuss further any point about this for which you think there might be evidence or reasoning to think otherwise, it might be off topic from the starting topic but would probably be a much less repetitive and more informative topic :P

Offline RandJordan

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2009, 03:14:31 PM »
Actually I found one study comparing whole-milk vs fat-free milk after workout (1hr after, which is not as good as immediately after but still in the post-workout range). That might be what they referred to.

But the data actually shows that the extra calories are what is important and not the extra fat, and if anything fat-free with extra calories was higher than whole milk for protein uptake (85% being better than 80% but possibly just random variation):

METHOD: Three groups of volunteers ingested one of three milk drinks each: 237 g of fat-free milk (FM), 237 g of whole milk (WM), and 393 g of fat-free milk isocaloric with the WM (IM). Milk was ingested 1 h following a leg resistance exercise routine. Net muscle protein balance was determined by measuring amino acid balance across the leg. RESULTS: Arterial concentrations of representative amino acids increased in response to milk ingestion. Threonine balance and phenylalanine balance were both > 0 following milk ingestion. Net amino acid uptake for threonine was 2.8-fold greater (P < 0.05) for WM than for FM. Mean uptake of phenylalanine was 80 and 85% greater for WM and IM, respectively, than for FM, but not statistically different. Threonine uptake relative to ingested was significantly (P < 0.05) higher for WM (21 +/- 6%) than FM (11 +/- 5%), but not IM (12 +/- 3%).

So again, the comparison is between IM and WM, and there is no big difference when just look at aminoacid uptake as they did.

But in a way I stand corrected, in that I would have thought even just aminoacid uptake might be a bit reduced by the extra fat and that wasn't the case there, but it's definitely not better than milk with more sugar added to reach the same calories.

And there are other parameters like prevention of protein catabolism and positive protein balance and synthesis, rapid restoration of muscle glycogen stores etc that should again be better with fast digestion and higher insulin response, especially immediately after workout, and in stopping and reversing catabolism fast is of the essence.

Very interesting, I like it a lot when people who speak of fitness studies post or cite they're sources.

Offline Shawn Meilicke

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2009, 04:57:32 PM »
Hey Chris, I didn't realize it but you replied in the 9 minutes  :o during which I was typing my reply so I didn't even see your post (I thought I was just posting twice in a row with no reply yet until after I looked at this thread again today).

It looks like we found the same article ;) but as you can see from my discussion it's not about the fat but just the calories, which is why they added that nice control of fat-free milk with non-fat calories added (I suspect it was a nice suggestion from the reviewers).

Also I was talking just about milk here, and both fat-free and whole milk have the same amount of casein, but whey and sugar still performs better as a post-exercise drink than just milk, because slow-absorption is a good thing at all other times but not right after a workout, so milk is still good enough but would be even better with no casein, more whey and more sugar.

Post-workout is just a very different situation. It's like for say large amounts of adrenaline and electrical shocks, which are normally not good for your heart, except when you need to restart it in which case they are the best thing to do at that very moment for that particular need.

You don't care about the prolonged period of elevated AA there because you especially want to spike it right at the critical and short post-workout window of increased absorption. And they are removed from the bloodstream at a much greater rate at that time so you really need to do the most to push in more AA and energy faster right away.

A couple of hours after the end of your exercise and PWO drink you can certainly go back to slow-absorption protein, carbs etc and be better for it, but immediately post-workout they would be taking away from the much more needed fast absorption ones.
If you want we can discuss further any point about this for which you think there might be evidence or reasoning to think otherwise, it might be off topic from the starting topic but would probably be a much less repetitive and more informative topic :P

im totally ok with you guys going off topic, i got my question answered, it neednt be again :)

and AA=amino acids?
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2009, 05:06:05 PM »
Yes.. AA = Amino Acids...

Back to it :P

It looks like we found the same article ;) but as you can see from my discussion it's not about the fat but just the calories, which is why they added that nice control of fat-free milk with non-fat calories added (I suspect it was a nice suggestion from the reviewers).

I think you are jumping to a conclusion.  More calories..yes.  But also more macronutrients across the board -- more to buffer absorption...and a higher volume of liquid.  There is a lot going on there and saying the reason is the calories is jumping to a conclusion.  Another study would be needed to test if it is the calories, the buffered absorption or some other element that we are overlooking.

Also I was talking just about milk here, and both fat-free and whole milk have the same amount of casein, but whey and sugar still performs better as a post-exercise drink than just milk, because slow-absorption is a good thing at all other times but not right after a workout, so milk is still good enough but would be even better with no casein, more whey and more sugar.

Post-workout is just a very different situation. It's like for say large amounts of adrenaline and electrical shocks, which are normally not good for your heart, except when you need to restart it in which case they are the best thing to do at that very moment for that particular need.

Fast absorption is good for immediately during a workout...but JUST fast proteins (i.e. Whey) just give you a spike...the real power is unleashed when you have slow proteins to provide a slower, more prolonged elevation of blood AA levels.  This is cited left and right through the literature - but for convenience I will just recite what I have posted above.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2569005
Quote from: Brian D Roy
the elevation in blood amino acids was slower and remained elevated for a more prolonged period, providing a more sustained delivery of amino acids for skeletal muscle protein synthesis.

PWO IS different but not THAT much different.  The spike of blood AA levels is great for the immediate effects that are caused when coupled with sugar but for a more pronounced benefit you really want the slow proteins in there for the prolonged delivery of AA.

Lets draw a comparison of recovery to a war-torn nation.  After a major battle if there is a huge influx of funds it is great for the initial rebuilding process...but if the spike of funds suddenly ends you aren't really seeing a major benefit.  If, after a major battle, there is a huge influx of funds followed by a long prolonged period of wealth then the nation can more adequately recover and become stronger than before (supercompensation).  (This may not be an airtight analogy but it should help someone else who isn't as good at reading physiology papers.)

A couple of hours after the end of your exercise and PWO drink you can certainly go back to slow-absorption protein, carbs etc and be better for it, but immediately post-workout they would be taking away from the much more needed fast absorption ones.

Again, I feel that you are jumping to a conclusion.  The literature I have read has all pointed to best results when there is a spike of blood AA levels followed by a prolonged period of elevation in blood AA levels...and that literature review posted above has a few citations within it regarding that issue.  Maybe you have found conflicting data that shows more benefit when there is a spike of AA without a prolonged period of elevation?

In terms of protein synthesis (from above, comparing the speed of soy vs. the speed of skim-milk...whole milk is obviously slower than skim because of the fat):

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2569005
Quote from: Brian D Roy
The authors speculated that their observations were attributable to the differences in soy protein digestion as compared to milk protein digestion. The soy based beverage was digested and absorbed much more rapidly leading to a large rapid rise in blood concentrations of amino acids shuttling them to plasma protein and urea synthesis [2], whereas with the fat-free milk the elevation in blood amino acids was slower and remained elevated for a more prolonged period, providing a more sustained delivery of amino acids for skeletal muscle protein synthesis.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2569005
Quote from: Brian D Roy
Firstly, it contains carbohydrates (lactose) in amounts similar to many commercially available sports drinks (glucose, maltodextrin). Milk contains casein and whey proteins in a ratio of 3:1 which provides for slower digestion and absorption of these proteins resulting in sustained elevations of blood amino acid concentrations [2]. Another advantage is that whey protein also contains a large proportion of branched chain amino acids which have an integral role in muscle metabolism and protein synthesis. Finally, milk also has naturally high concentrations of electrolytes, which are naturally lost through sweating during exercise. The high concentrations of these electrolytes should aid in fluid recovery following exercise. Based on these characteristics of milk, there has been growing sport nutrition research interest in milk and its possible roles as an exercise beverage for both resistance and endurance sports and training.


And in terms of rehydration:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2569005
Quote from: Brian D Roy
The ability of milk to effectively act as a rehydration beverage likely relates to the composition of milk. Milk naturally has high concentrations of electrolytes (133 mg Na+ and 431 mg K+ in a 250 mL serving) which aid in fluid retention when consumed. Another factor that has been speculated to contribute to the ability of milk to be an effective post-exercise rehydration beverage is the rate at which it empties from the stomach [22]. Energy dense fluids empty from the stomach much more slowly, leading to a slower absorption into the circulation [23]. This slower absorption attenuates the large fluctuations in plasma osmolality that can occur with consumption of large volumes of water or sports drinks. Subsequently, the large fluctuations in osmolality (decreased osmolality) [caused by sports drinks, NOT milk] would result in increased clearance rates by the kidneys, similar to those observed by Shirreffs et al [22], resulting in large increases in urine output.

I just find it odd that you think the slow absorption is a bad thing when all the data points to it being the main reason skim milk is beneficial when compared to other sports drinks.  Following that logic, Whole Milk should be just as beneficial if not slightly superior, imho.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 05:10:00 PM by Chris Salvato »

Offline tombb

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2009, 06:10:09 PM »
I think you are jumping to a conclusion.  More calories..yes.  But also more macronutrients across the board -- more to buffer absorption...and a higher volume of liquid.  There is a lot going on there and saying the reason is the calories is jumping to a conclusion.  Another study would be needed to test if it is the calories, the buffered absorption or some other element that we are overlooking.
Actually I thought WM and IM were both isocaloric and isonitrogenous (e.g., they just added sugar and water or something), but I looked at the paper content more carefully and you are right:
Quote
FM and WM were isonitrogenous and WM and IM were isocaloric.
So yes you are right I would like to see then try with also fat-free milk with sugar to get to the same calories to tease out those differences. I know from other studies though that extra calories do cause an increase in AA absorption, but so can extra protein, so yeah, it would be nice to test the contribution of the two independently...

Also I was talking just about milk here, and both fat-free and whole milk have the same amount of casein, but whey and sugar still performs better as a post-exercise drink than just milk, because slow-absorption is a good thing at all other times but not right after a workout, so milk is still good enough but would be even better with no casein, more whey and more sugar.

Post-workout is just a very different situation. It's like for say large amounts of adrenaline and electrical shocks, which are normally not good for your heart, except when you need to restart it in which case they are the best thing to do at that very moment for that particular need.

Fast absorption is good for immediately during a workout...but JUST fast proteins (i.e. Whey) just give you a spike...the real power is unleashed when you have slow proteins to provide a slower, more prolonged elevation of blood AA levels.  This is cited left and right through the literature - but for convenience I will just recite what I have posted above.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2569005
Quote from: Brian D Roy
the elevation in blood amino acids was slower and remained elevated for a more prolonged period, providing a more sustained delivery of amino acids for skeletal muscle protein synthesis.

PWO IS different but not THAT much different.  The spike of blood AA levels is great for the immediate effects that are caused when coupled with sugar but for a more pronounced benefit you really want the slow proteins in there for the prolonged delivery of AA.

Lets draw a comparison of recovery to a war-torn nation.  After a major battle if there is a huge influx of funds it is great for the initial rebuilding process...but if the spike of funds suddenly ends you aren't really seeing a major benefit.  If, after a major battle, there is a huge influx of funds followed by a long prolonged period of wealth then the nation can more adequately recover and become stronger than before (supercompensation).  (This may not be an airtight analogy but it should help someone else who isn't as good at reading physiology papers.)
I think the problem is that you didn't follow some of those nested references deep enough.

All the evidence you are referring to is just for normal meals with no exercise involved. 

For example, in the paper you quote multiple times in your post, the statement is just taken from this [2] paper, specifically:
[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12730415
which is just about postprandial aminoacid intake, which is a big word for "after a meal". It's just saying after a meal you have more sustained release and uptake with slower absorption, which should be no surprise to you. But again it's completely different for post-workout with its exercised-induced increased uptake, and a timeframe where 'time-released' simply doesn't matter at all and is clearly inferior to fast-release.

For PWO it's not even a matter of spiking, as I mentioned aminoacids are quickly absorbed so you don't get any negative feedback on intake until your muscles are more than saturated and happy, or you completely run out of digested whey, both of which don't happen for a while and when you do you reached your optimal goal anyways.

To use your example of a war-torn nation, you might want to use the most resources at springtime when everything is most-responsive to rebuilding and you have a critically short window of time/opportunity to plant trees etc before the winter comes, and excess money won't be wasted in stupid stuff because there are many concrete things to do and everybody is ready to do them. Later on and throughout the winter, it makes more sense to then have a supply of slow and steady money to keep pipes from freezing etc, and excess funding then would 'spike' and end up in the pockets of corrupt politicians. Or something... analogies...
The equivalent without the analogy is what I mentioned before:
A couple of hours after the end of your exercise and PWO drink you can certainly go back to slow-absorption protein, carbs etc and be better for it, but immediately post-workout they would be taking away from the much more needed fast absorption ones.

And in terms of rehydration:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2569005
Quote from: Brian D Roy
The ability of milk to effectively act as a rehydration beverage likely relates to the composition of milk. Milk naturally has high concentrations of electrolytes (133 mg Na+ and 431 mg K+ in a 250 mL serving) which aid in fluid retention when consumed. Another factor that has been speculated to contribute to the ability of milk to be an effective post-exercise rehydration beverage is the rate at which it empties from the stomach [22]. Energy dense fluids empty from the stomach much more slowly, leading to a slower absorption into the circulation [23]. This slower absorption attenuates the large fluctuations in plasma osmolality that can occur with consumption of large volumes of water or sports drinks. Subsequently, the large fluctuations in osmolality (decreased osmolality) [caused by sports drinks, NOT milk] would result in increased clearance rates by the kidneys, similar to those observed by Shirreffs et al [22], resulting in large increases in urine output.
Rehydration is a completely unrelated issue from fast or slow absorption of protein and protein synthesis.
And even if we were talking about rehydration problems, the additional clearing of excess water from a sport drink (which was never what we were discussing, unless sport drinks contained whey too for example), the issue would be only one of efficiency given a limit on how much you can drink after losing too much fluids. If you can afford to drink an extra sip of a sport drink or water+salt+sugar, then you are probably better off, since being able to use that extra water for filtration is generally an advantage.

Again, regardless of side discussions about efficient water retention, all evidence on post-workout drinks clearly and conclusively shows the opposite of what you are claiming. Fast-absorption is ideal, slow-absorption is sub-optimal. That's why whole milk is not as good as just whey+sugar right after workout, while something like cheese (mostly casein and fat) is better throughout the day and especially night for total protein absorption and synthesis.

If you found even a single paper showing specifically any advantage of slower protein release and slower digestion immediately post-exercise, that would be a big plus for your current position, but again if you follow any of the links and studies and papers you cited so far, it's never about post-exercise, and again all the literature I have ever seen specifically about post-exercise measurements always shows clearly that faster absorption is better.

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2009, 07:17:25 PM »
Tom I can add myself into Chris' position and give you the references you are looking for:

According to the vast amount of studies of proteins and the PWO, fast acting proteins are obviously superior in the pre-workout stage however are blunted in the PWO where a mixture of fast/slow (slow having a higher priority) is optimal regardless of endurance or resistance training. While it makes sense that you want AAs fast, fast absorption proteins have tendencies related to switching on protein synthesis while slow absorption proteins have tendencies related to switching off protein breakdown.

In actuality, Tom, both fast and slow proteins release AA's at the same time; there just happen to be more when considering a whey like protein(1). The spike is that which triggers synthesis. Also, either your vision of what happens to AAs in the muscle is skewed, you just explained it in a strange way, or I am interpreting what I read wrongly. Seeing as I doubt I can provide a better explanation here is an excerpt from The Protein Book by Lyle McDonald:

Quote
However, simply eating tons of protein generally doesn't lead to gains in muscle mass. Rather, protein stored during the day is broken down and released to the body during the night, a process referred to as diurnal cycling. With increasing or decreasing protein intakes, diurnal cycling can increase or decrease after a short adaptation period; overtime this ensures that the body simply maintains its protein stores at a constant level.

Increase the body's protein stores (i.e. skeletal muscle mass) requires a stimulus such as resistance training that, in essence, "tells" it to store more protein. The combination of properly performed resistance training along with sufficient calories and protein leads to an increase in body protein stores; lean body mass is gained.

So what does this have to do with what we're talking about? I'm still learning but based on everything I've read in conjunction with this excerpt, lean body mass gains are not dependent on what happens at the micro-managed PWO level. What IS important is that the proper switches are turned on/off to allow for a net positive balance (determined by the difference between daily dietary intake and daily protein turnover) which causes the body to increase its protein stores which is the product of diurnal cycling.

It's late and searching through all these references is making my head hurt. Respond to this as you will and if there needs more explanation or more sources I can dumpster dive tomorrow through over 500.

But seriously, if you want to know everything pertaining to proteins...get the protein book.

1. Graph adapted from: Boirie, Y. et. al. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA (1997) 94: 14930-14935.

-Yes while this is "postprandial," and I know you'll try and use that a basis against the claims made above, because recent research tends to favor the concept of mechanisms that should be either turned on or off at the appropriate times, this generally negates the impact of that word.

And (while typing this) I just came across a reference to the preliminary data presented at the 2005 International Whey Conference which suggested that a 50/50 mix of both whey and casein would be optimal in regards to gaining lean body mass with training.

Phillips, SM. Eating the Right Proteins to Support Muscle Mass with Exercise. Presentation at the 4th International Whey Conference, 2005.

Offline tombb

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Re: powerade?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2009, 08:48:32 PM »
According to the vast amount of studies of proteins and the PWO, fast acting proteins are obviously superior in the pre-workout stage however are blunted in the PWO where a mixture of fast/slow (slow having a higher priority) is optimal regardless of endurance or resistance training.
Charles, the second part of your statement has no support in the literature. There is no blunting in PWO, and a mixture is suboptimal compared to just fast-acting proteins.

While it makes sense that you want AAs fast, fast absorption proteins have tendencies related to switching on protein synthesis while slow absorption proteins have tendencies related to switching off protein breakdown.
That's in other times like ordinary meals and snacks, not immediately after vigorous exercise, where the body wants to be anabolic to adapt to that strong exercise stimulus and just needs a big spike of insulin even just from sugar to reassure your body you have 'captured your prey/meal' and can invest in building muscles to hunt more efficiently in the future.

In actuality, Tom, both fast and slow proteins release AA's at the same time; there just happen to be more when considering a whey like protein(1). The spike is that which triggers synthesis. Also, either your vision of what happens to AAs in the muscle is skewed, you just explained it in a strange way, or I am interpreting what I read wrongly.
I think it's the 4th possibility not listed in your options, that the literature and I are right, and that you are confusing effects of different protein consumption at mealtimes with the very different mechanisms of exercise and post-exercise protein intake :P

The reason why you can't use a study about something unrelated like the effect of just daily food consumption independent of exercise on protein absorbtion is that it's completely unrelated, in mechanism, physiology, and of course actual consequences and results.

Spike in protein is not what triggers the syntesis we are talking about here, the body starts out in catabolic state after exercise to restore energy stores, and then switches to anabolic once insulin signals there's enough resources available. The biggest stimulus for protein synthesis is the immediate after-effect of exercise itself (a completely different mechanism than just what you can get even without exercise from spikes in protein consumption), hence the special post-workout window and its more specific features.

So what does this have to do with what we're talking about? I'm still learning but based on everything I've read in conjunction with this excerpt, lean body mass gains are not dependent on what happens at the micro-managed PWO level. What IS important is that the proper switches are turned on/off to allow for a net positive balance (determined by the difference between daily dietary intake and daily protein turnover) which causes the body to increase its protein stores which is the product of diurnal cycling.

Many studies clearly demonstrate that lean body mass gains are significantly affected by what you call the "micro-managed PWO levels". That IS much more important comparatively, although everything else is also very useful. The proper switches are strongly turned off by intense exercise not followed by nutrition (catabolism and protein balance losses, all directly measurable effects), and strongly turned on by quickly following intense exercise with fast-absorbing energy and protein.
And that's in every aspect, including hormones, muscle glygocen restoration, net muscle nitrogen balance, etc.

It's late and searching through all these references is making my head hurt. Respond to this as you will and if there needs more explanation or more sources I can dumpster dive tomorrow through over 500.
I think if you read again through your sources and the literature you should be able to see where you might have confused well-known and straightforward effects of different proteins throughout the day vs what happens instead with PWO supplementation because of the particular state that the body is in.
But, if you can find a good study to support your point, just give me the best one you can find between those 500, I don't have all that time to go through so many right now ;), but just make sure it is actually comparing intake right after exercise, keeping everything else the same.
Taking slow-acting proteins throughout the day is not what we are discussing and I think we all agree that's a good idea in general.