Author Topic: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?  (Read 6508 times)

Offline tombb

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2009, 07:58:39 PM »
Just to add to this, you want to also consider exercise bouts and factors like recovery status (soreness for example) when you think about protein absorption, as that has a big effect both directly on muscle absorption and on AA blood profile.

If you only look at nutrition, you can see tapering effects, but exercise and recovery bouts help prevent that sort of getting desensitized to more constant levels of protein. (This is also analogous to insulin-sensitivity, where again frequent exercise can prevent insulin resistance despite nutrition patterns that might otherwise cause it)

In general I think a mix of spiking high protein consumption, depletion from exercise, and some periods of more constant supply during recovery is probably the way to go.

Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2009, 08:34:19 PM »
Just to add to this, you want to also consider exercise bouts and factors like recovery status (soreness for example) when you think about protein absorption, as that has a big effect both directly on muscle absorption and on AA blood profile.

If you only look at nutrition, you can see tapering effects, but exercise and recovery bouts help prevent that sort of getting desensitized to more constant levels of protein. (This is also analogous to insulin-sensitivity, where again frequent exercise can prevent insulin resistance despite nutrition patterns that might otherwise cause it)

In general I think a mix of spiking high protein consumption, depletion from exercise, and some periods of more constant supply during recovery is probably the way to go.

So are you saying to keep a constant, good supply of protein daily, but every so often (weekly maybe?) spike it to higher levels, along with diverse exercise habits?

Offline tombb

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2009, 09:43:03 PM »
Just to add to this, you want to also consider exercise bouts and factors like recovery status (soreness for example) when you think about protein absorption, as that has a big effect both directly on muscle absorption and on AA blood profile.

If you only look at nutrition, you can see tapering effects, but exercise and recovery bouts help prevent that sort of getting desensitized to more constant levels of protein. (This is also analogous to insulin-sensitivity, where again frequent exercise can prevent insulin resistance despite nutrition patterns that might otherwise cause it)

In general I think a mix of spiking high protein consumption, depletion from exercise, and some periods of more constant supply during recovery is probably the way to go.

So are you saying to keep a constant, good supply of protein daily, but every so often (weekly maybe?) spike it to higher levels, along with diverse exercise habits?

Not quite, I am saying that you should try to plan your protein intake around exercise and recovery first, also alternating slow release vs fast release proteins at different times (fast like whey during and right after workouts for example, slow during meals that are spaced apart like before bedtime). 

If you have to think about when to take the bulk of your proteins or at least a higher than average portion, again after a workout is probably one of the better choices.

And if you have to decide which days you should spread out your proteins on a more constant or even higher rate, days when you are feeling your body recovering from a particularly impactful workout is again probably a good choice.

Trying to have protein exactly every 2 hrs is unnecessary and would seem like a very tedious chore anyways.
And you have natural periods of low bloodstream AA levels like in the morning, where even lower amount of protein will seem more like a spike, so you don't have to worry excessively about planning for protein spikes.

Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2009, 10:23:39 PM »


Not quite, I am saying that you should try to plan your protein intake around exercise and recovery first, also alternating slow release vs fast release proteins at different times (fast like whey during and right after workouts for example, slow during meals that are spaced apart like before bedtime). 


Which is one of the reasons why snacking is better.

I hear chocolate milk was an excellent recovery drink for post workouts. Is this true?
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2009, 04:56:14 AM »


Not quite, I am saying that you should try to plan your protein intake around exercise and recovery first, also alternating slow release vs fast release proteins at different times (fast like whey during and right after workouts for example, slow during meals that are spaced apart like before bedtime). 


Which is one of the reasons why snacking is better.

I hear chocolate milk was an excellent recovery drink for post workouts. Is this true?


Yes..

Milk: The New Sports Drink?
Milk as an Effective Post-Exercise Rehydration Drink

Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2009, 08:49:01 PM »
So wait . . . How does one get 35grams of protein every two hours without eating too many carbs? If you want that much you just have to get it through whey or some other protein shake and those would be fast digestion right. You couldn't just eat fish or meats because there are too many carbs.  The reason I ask is because most of the time I work and would like to know easy things to eat at my desk.
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Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2009, 08:55:00 PM »
Hard boiled eggs

easy
portable
delicious

Offline tombb

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2009, 09:07:09 PM »
I think the point is that 35 grams exactly every 2 hours for the whole day is very unrealistic for most people and probably unnecessary especially considering the huge effort and sacrifice that represents.

For example, with Charles suggestion of boiled eggs, if you only used eggs, 35g every 2hrs means SIX boiled eggs every 2hrs, about 50 (FIFTY) boiled eggs a day. And if you eat the yolk, that's also 250g of fat, which is quite a LOT for your system, I don't know how long your liver and kidneys could handle that.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2009, 05:09:32 AM »
no one here ever heard of chicken or tuna, i guess :P

Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2009, 06:29:10 AM »
no one here ever heard of chicken or tuna, i guess :P

Apparently not...
You couldn't just eat fish or meats because there are too many carbs. 

A can of tuna has 0 carbohydrates.

I'm confused?

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2009, 10:57:39 AM »
Lean meats have VERY few carbs as well
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Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2009, 04:55:37 PM »
...You couldn't just eat fish or meats because there are too many carbs...

Huh?
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Offline FastGuppy

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2009, 06:35:18 PM »
I just have hard time understand how someone who weighs 180 could eat 2 grams of protein without gaining a little weight. That just seems like a lot of calories. 
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2009, 04:15:20 AM »
Metabolic differences account for that easily.

Eat more.

Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2009, 05:29:24 PM »
I just have hard time understand how someone who weighs 180 could eat 2 grams of protein without gaining a little weight. That just seems like a lot of calories. 

Carbs are not the same thing as calories. I think that's the root of the misunderstanding surrounding your quote of: "...You couldn't just eat fish or meats because there are too many carbs..."

;)

To change the topic slightly, but still on the question of diets in general...

I have read here and there (mostly anecdotal) that after a certain point, diets don't "work;" i.e. that there is a certain weight your body "wants to be" and to force it too far out of that range is counterproductive. I am uncertain with whether or not I agree with this or understand it fully, so I'm looking for feedback on this idea to help me shape my knowledge on it. Obviously the body can and does adapt to pretty much whatever we subject it to. This is the fundamental idea behind diet, training, etc. So in theory we could cut calories, change our training routine, etc; and get results. This is how it's "supposed" to work, right?

My question is this... I have been on all sorts of diets and tried all sorts of things (including some that were not so great like anorexia and bulimia). Admittedly I have a lot of mental baggage attached to food/training/dieting that is unhealthy and impacts how I approach my relationships to food and exercise. This is a separate issue but is at least worth mentioning to give you the full picture. I have never been "overweight" in my life but I have been heavier and squishier than I'd like more often than not. My doctors have always said I have been at a healthy weight/been fit for the average person my age but I have always wanted to be fitter/leaner than average. With all the diets and strategies I have tried, I have always felt great for the first few weeks and then I hit this crash, where I feel like I would kill someone and feast on their entrails if only to have some food. Even with the Zone where I felt like I was eating all the time and could never eat everything on my menu for the day, after a few weeks I just wanted a large pizza all to myself, and a root beer float. It feels different from normal cravings as the body adjusts to a new diet. Those I can shrug off pretty easily. It's usually around week 3 or 4, when I have been doing fine and getting good results, that this happens. It also seems to be heightened/worse when my diet is coupled with regular/consistent physical training. I am cranky, I feel physically great on all the veggies and stuff, but it's like my taste buds want the greasy fatty taste of a bacon-and-ice cream-sandwich (no joke I spent most of last week obsessing about this very food--gross, huh?), and my stomach wants that big fat-tacular thing to work on, even though it knows it will feel terrible.

It's usually around this time that I bomb on my diet and training both. I go on a huge bender and stop training altogether, and also honestly just want to sleep and sleep and sleep. All the energy I felt from eating that healthy food and exercising just goes out the window. I almost always gain any weight/fat back at this time, but I feel more like "myself" afterwards. Except for being massively consumed with guilt.

I have tried monitoring to see if this type of thing coincides with my monthly cycle but it seems random. Honestly it seems to fall right around 3-4 weeks after I get back on the wagon, independent of what my hormones seem to be doing. At this point it's starting to feel like the weight/body comp that I am is "ideal" for me and my body and what it needs to function, and anything different I'd have to work so hard for, and at such a cost (feeling run-down, cranky, etc.) that it's not worth it. Because while I'm not optimized by any stretch, I'm certainly healthy and not an unattractive size. But at the same time it's annoying that I feel limited in what I can do physically because of bf and inconsistent training.

What is going on with this? Is this my body's way of telling me that this is the weight it "wants" to be? Or have I just not yet found the right diet/exercise lifestyle for my body? This is majorly frustrating. Am I being self-defeating or am I honestly not listening to what my body is telling me?

Thoughts?

Thanks for letting me ramble; and thanks in advance for your insights/ideas.
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
as though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome,
she would be beyond all walking, and would fly.
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Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2009, 07:51:29 PM »
I just have hard time understand how someone who weighs 180 could eat 2 grams of protein without gaining a little weight. That just seems like a lot of calories. 

Carbs are not the same thing as calories. I think that's the root of the misunderstanding surrounding your quote of: "...You couldn't just eat fish or meats because there are too many carbs..."

;)

To change the topic slightly, but still on the question of diets in general...

I have read here and there (mostly anecdotal) that after a certain point, diets don't "work;" i.e. that there is a certain weight your body "wants to be" and to force it too far out of that range is counterproductive. I am uncertain with whether or not I agree with this or understand it fully, so I'm looking for feedback on this idea to help me shape my knowledge on it. Obviously the body can and does adapt to pretty much whatever we subject it to. This is the fundamental idea behind diet, training, etc. So in theory we could cut calories, change our training routine, etc; and get results. This is how it's "supposed" to work, right?

My question is this... I have been on all sorts of diets and tried all sorts of things (including some that were not so great like anorexia and bulimia). Admittedly I have a lot of mental baggage attached to food/training/dieting that is unhealthy and impacts how I approach my relationships to food and exercise. This is a separate issue but is at least worth mentioning to give you the full picture. I have never been "overweight" in my life but I have been heavier and squishier than I'd like more often than not. My doctors have always said I have been at a healthy weight/been fit for the average person my age but I have always wanted to be fitter/leaner than average. With all the diets and strategies I have tried, I have always felt great for the first few weeks and then I hit this crash, where I feel like I would kill someone and feast on their entrails if only to have some food. Even with the Zone where I felt like I was eating all the time and could never eat everything on my menu for the day, after a few weeks I just wanted a large pizza all to myself, and a root beer float. It feels different from normal cravings as the body adjusts to a new diet. Those I can shrug off pretty easily. It's usually around week 3 or 4, when I have been doing fine and getting good results, that this happens. It also seems to be heightened/worse when my diet is coupled with regular/consistent physical training. I am cranky, I feel physically great on all the veggies and stuff, but it's like my taste buds want the greasy fatty taste of a bacon-and-ice cream-sandwich (no joke I spent most of last week obsessing about this very food--gross, huh?), and my stomach wants that big fat-tacular thing to work on, even though it knows it will feel terrible.

It's usually around this time that I bomb on my diet and training both. I go on a huge bender and stop training altogether, and also honestly just want to sleep and sleep and sleep. All the energy I felt from eating that healthy food and exercising just goes out the window. I almost always gain any weight/fat back at this time, but I feel more like "myself" afterwards. Except for being massively consumed with guilt.

I have tried monitoring to see if this type of thing coincides with my monthly cycle but it seems random. Honestly it seems to fall right around 3-4 weeks after I get back on the wagon, independent of what my hormones seem to be doing. At this point it's starting to feel like the weight/body comp that I am is "ideal" for me and my body and what it needs to function, and anything different I'd have to work so hard for, and at such a cost (feeling run-down, cranky, etc.) that it's not worth it. Because while I'm not optimized by any stretch, I'm certainly healthy and not an unattractive size. But at the same time it's annoying that I feel limited in what I can do physically because of bf and inconsistent training.

What is going on with this? Is this my body's way of telling me that this is the weight it "wants" to be? Or have I just not yet found the right diet/exercise lifestyle for my body? This is majorly frustrating. Am I being self-defeating or am I honestly not listening to what my body is telling me?

Thoughts?

Thanks for letting me ramble; and thanks in advance for your insights/ideas.

Well all I can say is those cravings can be terrible, I can cope with you on that one for sure. When it comes down to it, training yourself to be able to resist/ignore/not-even-acknowledge the cravings is what's going to get you through. Having an iron will will get you to be able to push past that stage and continue eating well.
It's not easy.
It's crazy how strong the sense of taste is at completely RUINING your reason and critical thinking. That fact actually kind of interests me; why would, evolutionarily, having such a driving sense of taste be useful?

I dunno, but it's terrible and frustrating because giving in is easy, but eating well is hard.

Between taste, habit, and social pressure/situations, it's hard to change your eating habits in general. All I can say is keep at it, and best of luck, I know you can do it! :D

Offline tombb

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2009, 08:50:35 PM »
QMKC, it's not about having a strong sense of taste. A stronger sense of taste might actually make you pickier and able to eat less foods. And it's generally not about just some innate appetite level for most people. A lot of people can get fat because of sadness or trauma or boredom or just plain bad habits, or how their parents fed them, etc, and all these reasons are about nurture rather than genetics or taste.
Also, it's not just about humans, many human foods are just too delicious and calorie dense for any type of animal. If you allow  mice to feed off food pellets as much as they want, they maintain their ideal weight. If you allow them to also choose foods like icecream, frenchfries etc, and eat as much as they want of those like they did for pellets, they very quickly get overweight or even obese.

Anyways, going back to Muse's question, I recommend you watch a BBC documentary called "why are thin people not fat".
It discusses a lot of interesting side studies plus one main experiment they do directly trying to get thin people fat.

One of the interesting points it raises is, how can people's weight remain mostly so constant over so many years? And this is people that don't really count calories or anything. If you ate even 1 calorie or bread crum more than what you consume every day you would gain many pounds over a few years... But we have a normally fine-tuned system that both makes us eat less when our body thinks we might start to go above its ideal weight, and fidget more to burn extra calories as needed.

The problem is that your body's idea of your maintenance weight can get out of whack, especially if you gained too much weight at some point, and your fat cells actually divided. When they divide they get smaller and send signals to your brain to feed them until they reach their ideal size again, except now there are twice as many :P

One of the experiments they showed for example is having overweight people lose some weight, then trap them in a research center and give them only enough calories to allow them to perfectly maintain their new healthier/lower weight, and these people mainteined their weight for a year or more, but throughout that time, they did catscans of their brain and throughout the entire time their brains kept showing the same activation pattern as starving or underfed people, meaning that after gaining weight their physiology and their body and brain's feedback for ideal weight actually changed.

So in these people diets will work (if you physically stop them from eating more than X calories and make them exercise to burn Y calories even if they are unhappy and suffering), but if you stop the diet they might go back to overfeeding until they reach their body's new skewed feedback idea of 'ideal weight'.

Anyways there is more in the documentary and I think you can watch it online here so I won't discuss it too much:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00hbsk2/Horizon_20082009_Why_Are_Thin_People_Not_Fat/

But specifically for your situation, Muse, if you never been fat, what you describe might just be a healthy and normal consequence of having tried to be a bit too strict and unrealistic/unbalanced with your body, and you might just want to have a less extreme diet that is a bit more in agreement with your body's needs.
If you crave a certain type of nutrient (say fat or carbs or proteins) you don't have to see it as a sort of weird addiction withdrawal, it might just be your body trying to tell you that you need to figure out a better balance maybe keeping things healthy but still not eliminating something excessively or unnecessarily. For example, I think if you remove all sugars including fruit milk etc for too long you are more likely to one day have your body really crave the sweetest thing it can think of which is usually much worse than balancing a bit of good healthy sugars, carbs, fats, proteins in the first place.
Normally I would say our brain knows best compared to our brain, but that's only when we are clearminded enough to look at all the data, including feedback from our body. People that don't, and try to only fight or force their body to go along with something can end up with very skewed concepts of what is good for their bodies, like with anorexia, bulimia, compulsions etc.
Look less for immediate perfection in your schedule and try to do things more gradually and trying to adjust things around your body's needs and feedback too rather than just going for ideal concepts that might not even be accurate for your ideal metabolism, and adjusting thing little by little in a more scientific and planned way will help you avoid reactive or emotion-driven cycles of strict idealism and guilt ;)

Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2009, 08:41:29 AM »
Sorry about the misunderstanding. I suppose I could have used better words there; 'sense of taste' is definitely inaccurate.
I'm not sure exactly how to put it, but it's just the allure of great tasting foods can drive you past your will and all sense of critical reasoning just to satisfy the desire to enjoy that taste. Like you said, our human-made foods do that to us, but I was mainly just speculating on how intense/crazy it is that we succumb to something as simple as a taste.

Besides that, all I can say is it takes a lot of practice to be able to endure past those things, and the willpower involved is mind-blowing. I've been off and on "the wagon" a lot, and I'm learning more and more everytime I 'fall off' and then have to 'get back on'. It's the collection of all of the times put together that's finally allowing me to understand what I need to do to keep my eating habits in good order.
But, it's different for everyone, so like I said, practice is what will take you there.

I guess all in all, persistence is key. Keep up the work, Muse, you can do it!

Offline tombb

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2009, 09:43:44 AM »
Part of the drive to eat certain delicious foods is physiological, based on what nutrients you have been neglecting rather than just being about how irresistible those foods are.
For example, when you crave less healthy / more calorie-dense foods you don't necessarily crave all kinds at the same time, and usually you will crave the ones that contain large amounts of whatever you have been restricting excessively from your diet. So if someone read and believed that you should remove all fat from your diet (you shouldn't, even on a diet), and you decided to eat only raw fruits (high in simple sugars but basically no fat or proteins), then you are more likely to crave deep-fried stuff than, say, sugary sweets (since you have been eating lots of sugar from fruit already). Same thing for the opposite situation, etc.

Basically sometimes if you feel a craving for say bread-like stuff, it might be a sign that you removed complex carbs too much from your diet, and if you had kept some like say the occasional breakfast oats or brown-rice or whatever you probably wouldn't get to the point of craving the most calorie-dense version of that class of foods.

Now, this type of feedback can be unreliable if you are already overweight and with the type of physiological change I describe (higher number of fat cells per volume for example due to gaining too much weight and then losing it, thus staying with smaller but more numerous and hungrier fat cells per pound of fat even at your ideal weight), but in general it's at least important to listen to these signs and at least ask the question of whether falling off the wagon might have been caused by trying to ride a physiologically inappropriate wagon that was not best for your body or health.

Sometimes if you start with excess of a nutrient. and then cut it off completely, you can feel much better for a while, but trying to cut it off completely forever is still not the right thing. For anything, vitamins, proteins, carbs, fat, etc you are better off finding a good balance and sticking to it. 'Detox' periods can be great only if they are short and actually help you normalize and balance things, not eliminating them completely, stuff like intermittent fasting, cycling high and low protein days etc to give fatigued systems like liver and kidney a breather, resetting your sensitivity levels, etc.

Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Diet: Good, bad, and bullshit?
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2009, 03:57:31 PM »
Part of the drive to eat certain delicious foods is physiological, based on what nutrients you have been neglecting rather than just being about how irresistible those foods are.
For example, when you crave less healthy / more calorie-dense foods you don't necessarily crave all kinds at the same time, and usually you will crave the ones that contain large amounts of whatever you have been restricting excessively from your diet. So if someone read and believed that you should remove all fat from your diet (you shouldn't, even on a diet), and you decided to eat only raw fruits (high in simple sugars but basically no fat or proteins), then you are more likely to crave deep-fried stuff than, say, sugary sweets (since you have been eating lots of sugar from fruit already). Same thing for the opposite situation, etc.

Basically sometimes if you feel a craving for say bread-like stuff, it might be a sign that you removed complex carbs too much from your diet, and if you had kept some like say the occasional breakfast oats or brown-rice or whatever you probably wouldn't get to the point of craving the most calorie-dense version of that class of foods.

Now, this type of feedback can be unreliable if you are already overweight and with the type of physiological change I describe (higher number of fat cells per volume for example due to gaining too much weight and then losing it, thus staying with smaller but more numerous and hungrier fat cells per pound of fat even at your ideal weight), but in general it's at least important to listen to these signs and at least ask the question of whether falling off the wagon might have been caused by trying to ride a physiologically inappropriate wagon that was not best for your body or health.

Sometimes if you start with excess of a nutrient. and then cut it off completely, you can feel much better for a while, but trying to cut it off completely forever is still not the right thing. For anything, vitamins, proteins, carbs, fat, etc you are better off finding a good balance and sticking to it. 'Detox' periods can be great only if they are short and actually help you normalize and balance things, not eliminating them completely, stuff like intermittent fasting, cycling high and low protein days etc to give fatigued systems like liver and kidney a breather, resetting your sensitivity levels, etc.

haha, I gotcha there. Though, you can probably agree that a lot of it is psychological and habit.
I think the other important thing is to never completely eliminate one type of macronutrient or anything (usually tends to be carbs here), but to just make sure it's from a good source. Skipping a can of coke and going for an orange instead is going to be the better choice (unless odd situations....like you're allergic to an orange or something O_o). Like a lot of us say, it's not so much worrying about amounts and more about the source the food is coming from. I do agree that not enough carbs can hit you hard sometimes. The average american has way too many in their diet, plain and simple, that's why most of us here suggest the severe amount of lowering that we do. But, like I said, if they're coming from a good source you shouldn't have much to worry about or you can even try cycling higher carb days and lower carb days.
Again, though, when it comes down to it, the important factor is the source you're getting it from (for reasons that have been exhaustively mentioned on these boards :] ) .



I think another thing to keep in mind is the concept that it's damn near impossible to plan all of your diet perfect in amount, source, and timing. That's one of the main reasons I focus mainly on the source of what I'm eating and less about amounts (though I try to watch protein grammage to get a general idea).

I dunno, it might be off a little bit, but if you're eating good sources all around you'll run into very minimal problems, I'd assume.

Bleh, /rant.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 03:59:19 PM by QMKC Parsons »