Author Topic: Creatine  (Read 8699 times)

Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 09:45:42 AM »
I would just be concerned that that much max-effort squatting would tax the nervous system and then lead to decreases in strength.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 09:56:02 AM »
I made the recommendation with it in mind that this is a novice whose ability to recover is very strong and has not squatted very much before.  Squatting every other day going heavy can produce very rapid and safe results for as long as 3-9 months.

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2009, 09:57:12 AM »
A day of rest in between each bout is almost always enough time for your body to rest and recuperate. If one day you don't feel up to it, listen to your body and work something else. However, the squat is simply one of THE BEST pure strength building exercises. I, personally, have been squatting heavy every other day since about September.

Once you get to higher numbers or higher ratios then it is necessary to step back frequency and allow more recovery time.

Edit- Chris beat me

Offline Ryan Nicolai

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 04:10:16 PM »
I have these creatine pills that kill off reactive oxygen species... is that ok? The bottle says that the ROS absorbs creatine from your muscles created during a workout and are then flushed from your body. These ROS are apparently deactivated by something else in the pill so your muscles can utilize more creatine.


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Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2009, 05:29:04 PM »
Unless you are an elite bodybuilder looking to step over that final plateau, I have a hard time rationalizing the price of that supplement.

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2009, 06:34:41 PM »
I have these creatine pills that kill off reactive oxygen species... is that ok? The bottle says that the ROS absorbs creatine from your muscles created during a workout and are then flushed from your body. These ROS are apparently deactivated by something else in the pill so your muscles can utilize more creatine.

Considering what creatine does.... those are a load of crap.
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Offline tombb

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2009, 08:06:43 PM »
Unless you are an elite bodybuilder looking to step over that final plateau, I have a hard time rationalizing the price of that supplement.
Charles,
Creatine supplements are extremely cheap, especially compared to dietary sources. If you eat a decent amounts of meat everyday, your daily intake is around 2-3 grams, and you'll pay a lot for those 2 grams because meat is not a cheap food.  The same amount of creatine from supplements is instead just 10 cents or less, plus it's in a more easily absorbed form, and more practical to take before or after a workout than say a big steak..

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2009, 08:17:41 PM »
Thanks, Tom, but in a previous post I already preached the wonderful benefits of creatine. My last post was in response to anti-ROS pills. Perhaps you misread.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2009, 08:44:23 PM »
Unless you are an elite bodybuilder looking to step over that final plateau, I have a hard time rationalizing the price of that supplement.
Charles,
Creatine supplements are extremely cheap, especially compared to dietary sources. If you eat a decent amounts of meat everyday, your daily intake is around 2-3 grams, and you'll pay a lot for those 2 grams because meat is not a cheap food.  The same amount of creatine from supplements is instead just 10 cents or less, plus it's in a more easily absorbed form, and more practical to take before or after a workout than say a big steak..

???

Sorry that this is kind of OT, but you keep saying protein supplements are cheap...(i know here you said creatine but this is something I never brought up before)

Every calculation I have ever done comparing protein content in my food to the same amount purchased in supplements has always shown supplements to be much much much more expensive, gram for gram.

Where do you get your supplements?  Maybe I need to find a better source.

EDIT: I just did a calculation -- my current protein supplement is IsoPure which sells for about 50 dollars per 1050g of protein.  93/7 Ground Beef is about 3 dollars a pound and 1 pound is about 95g protein.  When I do the calculation I get ~5¢/gram of the supplement and ~3¢/gram of the whole food.  That's about a 30%-40% savings, in this case.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 08:58:33 PM by Chris Salvato »

Offline tombb

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2009, 08:50:29 PM »
Charles,
I was just responding to your mention "rationalizing the price of that supplement", which gave me the impression that you thought it was a good supplement but somehow a very expensive one, so I pointed out that it's also very inexpensive.

Chris,
if you give me some numbers to compare and how you derive them I can maybe compare them and give you numbers for cheap supplements. It might be that you buy supplements from an expensive source or maybe I am overpaying for my groceries hehe ;)

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2009, 08:54:49 PM »
I edited my last post with some numbers...

Could be a mix of both.  I usually buy ground beef, for example, not tri-tip cuts of beef that are 2x as much with the same amount of protein.

My supplement, IsoPure, is a bit pricey, too...but it may actually be cheaper gram for gram..i dunno...maybe a more in depth analysis would be better...i think that would be really interesting.

Offline tombb

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2009, 06:17:35 AM »
I edited my last post with some numbers...

Could be a mix of both.  I usually buy ground beef, for example, not tri-tip cuts of beef that are 2x as much with the same amount of protein.

My supplement, IsoPure, is a bit pricey, too...but it may actually be cheaper gram for gram..i dunno...maybe a more in depth analysis would be better...i think that would be really interesting.
Yes you can have much cheaper protein supplements that are still very good, and as you know you can have very expensive meat aside from ground beef. Using your numbers,
EDIT: I just did a calculation -- my current protein supplement is IsoPure which sells for about 50 dollars per 1050g of protein.  93/7 Ground Beef is about 3 dollars a pound and 1 pound is about 95g protein.  When I do the calculation I get ~5¢/gram of the supplement and ~3¢/gram of the whole food.  That's about a 30%-40% savings, in this case.
If you use for example
"S.A.N. 100% Pure Platinum Whey" protein, that's only 2.3¢/gram of protein (1)
same for "4Ever Whey Protein" which is 2.2¢/gram of protein  (2), plus from that online store you get an extra 10% discount which more than offsets any shipping cost since that is a fixed cost regardless of quantity.
So those already beat your example of ground beef, 2.2c vs 3c.

But if you compare it to other protein sources people might also rely on and enjoy more than just ground beef everyday, boneless chicken, flank steaks, fish, cheese, eggs, milk, yogurt, all have much higher price per gram of protein.
On a side note, you might want to buy your Isopure online too (health stores are convenient for impulse shopping or trying small sizes for new things, but they often charge near double what you can find online for the same brand and product). If you buy the large size Isopure (7.5lb), it's $85 for 2600g of protein, which is still a bit pricey, 3.2c (and with the 10% discount it's 2.9c), but better than the 5c you are currently paying. And if you search around you can surely find an even better price, I just looked at the same store that I use because it's reliable and usually has good prices on average.

Offline Ryan Nicolai

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2009, 06:30:03 AM »
My brother picked them up and a couple days later realized that he would be in Iraq before he could finish the product. So he gave them to me... they are Creakic, Leukic, and Gakic... and a month supply of vitamins or whatever. He was told by the dude at the GNC store that this program is only meant to be taken for about 2-4 weeks because it's a stacking program and then you drop down to the "more-normal" stuff. If you do it right you won't lose progress once you stop. If memory serves me right, that's how it went down.

It cost like $120.


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Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2009, 06:41:29 AM »
All right, Chris, Charles.  All makes sense. :) 
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Offline tombb

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2009, 07:30:31 AM »
My brother picked them up and a couple days later realized that he would be in Iraq before he could finish the product. So he gave them to me... they are Creakic, Leukic, and Gakic... and a month supply of vitamins or whatever. He was told by the dude at the GNC store that this program is only meant to be taken for about 2-4 weeks because it's a stacking program and then you drop down to the "more-normal" stuff. If you do it right you won't lose progress once you stop. If memory serves me right, that's how it went down.

It cost like $120.
GNC is very overpriced already in my opinion, and so are muscletech products (the ones you mentioned). Basically they are not bad for you, but they are very overhyped, the sort of thing that starts with a reasonable result (like antioxidants can help exercise recovery) and takes it out of context for example claiming effects that are based more on timing of intake than on the product itself or always comparing to taking nothing at all rather than comparing with taking similar nutrients from cheaper products or foods. 

So definitely use the ones you got for free, the worse thing that could happen really is that they might not help you as much as you might hope but they won't hurt and they would be wasted free stuff otherwise.  But after that, if you consider actually getting more and paying for them, read first several online reviews both from expert sites and consumer reviews, to help you deflate the extra hype and fancy ads. It's very likely you will end up with less overprices and more standard staple supplements, like the supercheap creatine and things like standard protein powders and vitamin pills.
Every time someone claims they have a special supplement that nobody else has, that should raise a red flag and make you want to challenge that claim a bit, because all the other tried and true good supplements are things you can shop around for and pick different brands based on flavor, formulation, cost etc and not based on a special super-ingredient that nobody else has...

Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2009, 10:06:17 AM »
One thing about GNC is their fish oil is better than anything else I've seen on the market (in terms of DHA content per capsule), which means I take a lot less capsules per day.  But yeah, otherwise, i find it overpriced.

As far as good creatine goes, the really expensive stuff has a LOT of filler.  The realyl cheap stuff has a LOT of filler.  Read what's in it before you buy it.
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Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2009, 12:53:26 PM »
Um lets see my Prolab creatine 600 grams for 15 bucks.  Don't think its that expensive. Average out i dunno maybe 10 grams a day on lifting days 5 pre, 5 post. That should last me 60 days not bad at all.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2009, 01:23:11 PM »
I edited my last post with some numbers...

Could be a mix of both.  I usually buy ground beef, for example, not tri-tip cuts of beef that are 2x as much with the same amount of protein.

My supplement, IsoPure, is a bit pricey, too...but it may actually be cheaper gram for gram..i dunno...maybe a more in depth analysis would be better...i think that would be really interesting.
Yes you can have much cheaper protein supplements that are still very good, and as you know you can have very expensive meat aside from ground beef. Using your numbers,
EDIT: I just did a calculation -- my current protein supplement is IsoPure which sells for about 50 dollars per 1050g of protein.  93/7 Ground Beef is about 3 dollars a pound and 1 pound is about 95g protein.  When I do the calculation I get ~5¢/gram of the supplement and ~3¢/gram of the whole food.  That's about a 30%-40% savings, in this case.
If you use for example
"S.A.N. 100% Pure Platinum Whey" protein, that's only 2.3¢/gram of protein (1)
same for "4Ever Whey Protein" which is 2.2¢/gram of protein  (2), plus from that online store you get an extra 10% discount which more than offsets any shipping cost since that is a fixed cost regardless of quantity.
So those already beat your example of ground beef, 2.2c vs 3c.

But if you compare it to other protein sources people might also rely on and enjoy more than just ground beef everyday, boneless chicken, flank steaks, fish, cheese, eggs, milk, yogurt, all have much higher price per gram of protein.
On a side note, you might want to buy your Isopure online too (health stores are convenient for impulse shopping or trying small sizes for new things, but they often charge near double what you can find online for the same brand and product). If you buy the large size Isopure (7.5lb), it's $85 for 2600g of protein, which is still a bit pricey, 3.2c (and with the 10% discount it's 2.9c), but better than the 5c you are currently paying. And if you search around you can surely find an even better price, I just looked at the same store that I use because it's reliable and usually has good prices on average.

I think you're right -- it depends on the source -- but the difference is not as drastic as I thought...though, as you know, I always recommend whole foods over supplements.

That said, I think a cool little project would be to make an excel spreadsheet with a representative cost of a lot of good supplements and whole foods of different types to get a good idea of the cost of protein per gram...maybe I am just a little obsessed, though :)

Offline Ryan Nicolai

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2009, 04:35:01 PM »
Thanks Tombb. I didn't plan on continuing them after I was done because not only do I think it's too expensive for that product... but I also can't afford that. Just thought I'd check because I only get the "Don't take it!!!" argument from people I ask around my town.


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Offline tombb

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Re: Creatine
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2009, 08:30:44 PM »
I edited my last post with some numbers...

Could be a mix of both.  I usually buy ground beef, for example, not tri-tip cuts of beef that are 2x as much with the same amount of protein.

My supplement, IsoPure, is a bit pricey, too...but it may actually be cheaper gram for gram..i dunno...maybe a more in depth analysis would be better...i think that would be really interesting.
Yes you can have much cheaper protein supplements that are still very good, and as you know you can have very expensive meat aside from ground beef. Using your numbers,
EDIT: I just did a calculation -- my current protein supplement is IsoPure which sells for about 50 dollars per 1050g of protein.  93/7 Ground Beef is about 3 dollars a pound and 1 pound is about 95g protein.  When I do the calculation I get ~5¢/gram of the supplement and ~3¢/gram of the whole food.  That's about a 30%-40% savings, in this case.
If you use for example
"S.A.N. 100% Pure Platinum Whey" protein, that's only 2.3¢/gram of protein (1)
same for "4Ever Whey Protein" which is 2.2¢/gram of protein  (2), plus from that online store you get an extra 10% discount which more than offsets any shipping cost since that is a fixed cost regardless of quantity.
So those already beat your example of ground beef, 2.2c vs 3c.

But if you compare it to other protein sources people might also rely on and enjoy more than just ground beef everyday, boneless chicken, flank steaks, fish, cheese, eggs, milk, yogurt, all have much higher price per gram of protein.
On a side note, you might want to buy your Isopure online too (health stores are convenient for impulse shopping or trying small sizes for new things, but they often charge near double what you can find online for the same brand and product). If you buy the large size Isopure (7.5lb), it's $85 for 2600g of protein, which is still a bit pricey, 3.2c (and with the 10% discount it's 2.9c), but better than the 5c you are currently paying. And if you search around you can surely find an even better price, I just looked at the same store that I use because it's reliable and usually has good prices on average.

I think you're right -- it depends on the source -- but the difference is not as drastic as I thought...though, as you know, I always recommend whole foods over supplements.

That said, I think a cool little project would be to make an excel spreadsheet with a representative cost of a lot of good supplements and whole foods of different types to get a good idea of the cost of protein per gram...maybe I am just a little obsessed, though :)
Yes definitely. But since you are a fan of whole foods you would have to do the math for those and it's always more complicated (because prices vary, average protein content can be different etc) :P
I think eggs, cheese, milk etc are also much less protein-dense so if you looked just at the cost per gram of protein they look even more expensive.

For myself, I usually want my food to taste very good so I rather spend more on it by having fresh skim milk instead of say cheaper powdered milk mixed with water, or certain types of cheese that have their own name and flavor rather than just any 'generic' cheese shavings. And I hate things like yolks (taste terrible to me) so again I would just have egg whites instead of whole eggs or cheaper dried egg powder.
So I rather have a bit more expensive quality food and not take them into quantities that will make me get sick of them, and after that use nice and inexpensive supplements to fill in the rest of my proteins, creatine and vitamins needs.