Author Topic: Sick  (Read 8544 times)

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Sick
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2009, 03:56:14 PM »
A multivitamin that gives you all the vitamin A you need in one sitting. Which is bad, because Vitamin A is stored in your fat and you CAN overdose on it. Last I heard it was losing it's cult following after the FDA bitch slapped it for vitamin over dose.

I am fairly certain there are very few reported cases of Vit A overdosing....aside from eating polar bear liver nightly...

Haha, well yeah, you'd have to take 9000mg to get most of the bad side affects, but what I mean is it has more than 100% in one sitting, and when people get a bunch of their Vitamin A from other food sources, it gives you too much. And since it's stored, that can build up. So, taking that multivitamin as a daily isn't a healthy thing to do.

Not trying to be a pain in the ass, I don't follow your logic.

If you don't see negative effects aside from taking insane amounts daily (and by insane, i mean like 1 billion times the daily value), then what is the harm is taking airborne aside from wasting your money?

Offline Liset Reep

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Re: Sick
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2009, 04:06:04 PM »
Not trying to be a pain in the ass, I don't follow your logic.

If you don't see negative effects aside from taking insane amounts daily (and by insane, i mean like 1 billion times the daily value), then what is the harm is taking airborne aside from wasting your money?
Haha, you aren't. But my point is you wouldn't need to take insane amounts daily to get negative side affects.

The package says to take one tablet every 3 hours as needed. One tablet has the daily recommended value-5000mg. The tolerable uptake is 10,000mg. So, if you took two in one day, you just took as much as you possibly can.

Then, heaven forbid you still need another pill (becauseitdidn'twork!) a THIRD time, and you just went over the limit.

Add that to any amount of Vitamin A you were already taking with your food.

It's one of the reasons the FDA threw a fit (in addition to claiming to prevent illness without proof of such claims).
My wedding anniversary is the same weekend as the CO National Jam.
This makes me very sad, and if I didn't already have everything booked, it'd be a hard decision.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Sick
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2009, 04:23:35 PM »
Not trying to be a pain in the ass, I don't follow your logic.

If you don't see negative effects aside from taking insane amounts daily (and by insane, i mean like 1 billion times the daily value), then what is the harm is taking airborne aside from wasting your money?
Haha, you aren't. But my point is you wouldn't need to take insane amounts daily to get negative side affects.

The package says to take one tablet every 3 hours as needed. One tablet has the daily recommended value-5000mg. The tolerable uptake is 10,000mg. So, if you took two in one day, you just took as much as you possibly can.

Then, heaven forbid you still need another pill (becauseitdidn'twork!) a THIRD time, and you just went over the limit.

Add that to any amount of Vitamin A you were already taking with your food.

It's one of the reasons the FDA threw a fit (in addition to claiming to prevent illness without proof of such claims).

Your sources are a bit off...check out this one, instead: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/819426-overview

First off, vitamin A is measured in IU not mg for nutritional purposes since there are multiple types of vitamin A.

Acute Toxicity of Vit A is at 25,000 IU/kg.  Thats 1,250,000 IU total for a 110# woman or 2,250,000 IU total in a day for a 200# man...one tablet of Airborne is 2000 IU.  I would say you are FAR OFF of acute toxicity by taking Airborne..

According to my sources, "Liver toxicities can occur at levels as low as 15,000 IU per day to 1.4 million IU per day, with an average daily toxic dose of 120,000 IU per day".  This means one would need to take at LEAST 8 tablets a day to have a chronic toxicity level if they are very sensitive to vitamin A....the average person would have to take 60 tablets (daily, mind you)

Based on this information...vitamin A is pretty damn harmless in the quantities in Airborne...

And I am pretty sure the FDA doesn't throw fits about anything.  If they did, they would probably have re-analyzed their stupid food pyramid decades ago.

Offline tombb

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Re: Sick
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2009, 04:24:57 PM »
Liset, it's very rare (almost unheard of) for a reason, it's not enough to go over the dose one day. You have to go 3x over the max dose for several weeks in a row to actually get side effects and hypervitaminosis. That just never happens to people in normal situations.

Plus I am not sure what multivitamin you are taking, but most multivitamins are once a day pills with actually less than 100% RDA (usually ~50% as retinoic acid and 25% as beta-carotene which doesn't cause hypervitaminosis). And that's the RDA, it's still safe to take up to 2x the RDA. So no risk of any excess vitamin A again here. And trust me you don't get all that much vitamin A from your diet, and when it comes from vegetables and fruits it's stuff like betacarotene which again you won't overdose from.

The only problem would be with small children taking pills like they are candy, and even in that case they would suffer from iron poisoning well before getting any problems from vitamin A.

Offline Liset Reep

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Re: Sick
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2009, 04:31:12 PM »
I was referring specifically to Airborne, which came under fire from the FDA for having too much Vitamin A. I was just pointing out that fact. If he wants to take it, I agree with you, I highly doubt he'll start keeling over from kidney damage from acute toxicity or anything, but it's not a good multivitamin to take daily. Or something I'd take three times a day for week's cold.

I'd recommend a regular multivitamin if he thinks the vitamins will help him get over his sickness faster, because like you said, they are a supplement and don't give you the highest dose in one sitting. You also aren't expected to take more than one a day.

But I just wouldn't recommend Airborne. :)
My wedding anniversary is the same weekend as the CO National Jam.
This makes me very sad, and if I didn't already have everything booked, it'd be a hard decision.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Sick
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2009, 04:38:01 PM »
I was referring specifically to Airborne, which came under fire from the FDA for having too much Vitamin A.

The FDA also says that more than 50g of protein a day is too much and recommends 6-11 servings of bread/grain/pasta a day despite the amount of evidence against high carb diets for the obese (aka >50% of america) and the amount of evidence for higher protein in the obese...

but i digress...

Offline Liset Reep

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Re: Sick
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2009, 04:53:18 PM »
I was referring specifically to Airborne, which came under fire from the FDA for having too much Vitamin A.

The FDA also says that more than 50g of protein a day is too much and recommends 6-11 servings of bread/grain/pasta a day despite the amount of evidence against high carb diets for the obese (aka >50% of america) and the amount of evidence for higher protein in the obese...

but i digress...
Eh, they're not perfect, I admit. They're more of a general guideline. Which, for people who aren't active athletes, 50g is probably too much. And I'm not sure if they've made a different guideline for the obese yet, but I guess they're looking into it with more studies before they get two separate guidelines.

/digress as well
My wedding anniversary is the same weekend as the CO National Jam.
This makes me very sad, and if I didn't already have everything booked, it'd be a hard decision.

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Sick
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2009, 11:18:20 PM »
I was referring specifically to Airborne, which came under fire from the FDA for having too much Vitamin A.

The FDA also says that more than 50g of protein a day is too much and recommends 6-11 servings of bread/grain/pasta a day despite the amount of evidence against high carb diets for the obese (aka >50% of america) and the amount of evidence for higher protein in the obese...

but i digress...
Eh, they're not perfect, I admit. They're more of a general guideline. Which, for people who aren't active athletes, 50g is probably too much. And I'm not sure if they've made a different guideline for the obese yet, but I guess they're looking into it with more studies before they get two separate guidelines.

/digress as well

You kidding me? Even for a sedentary person 50g protein is waaaaaaaaay too low.
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Offline Liset Reep

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Re: Sick
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2009, 11:59:22 PM »
You kidding me? Even for a sedentary person 50g protein is waaaaaaaaay too low.
Not necessarily. It's what, .4g/lb of body weight for sedentary, so 50g is perfect for someone like me. Crunching some numbers it may not be too much as I first thought, but it's not too low?

Edit-Actually, given I don't weigh a lot, 50g is probably too low for most of the forum folks.
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« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 12:58:51 AM by Liset »
My wedding anniversary is the same weekend as the CO National Jam.
This makes me very sad, and if I didn't already have everything booked, it'd be a hard decision.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Sick
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2009, 05:53:26 AM »
50 g of protein is what the FDA and WHO have decided is necessary for survival....not what is ideal for the average person...especially the athlete (which the average person should be, anyway, in my opinon...)

it is kind of...odd...to see people recommend diet and exercise to better health -- but then their diet plan isn't one that facilitates exercise and therefore doesn't facilitate better health.  Makes no sense to me, personally...

Offline tombb

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Re: Sick
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2009, 11:40:07 AM »
You kidding me? Even for a sedentary person 50g protein is waaaaaaaaay too low.
Not necessarily. It's what, .4g/lb of body weight for sedentary, so 50g is perfect for someone like me. Crunching some numbers it may not be too much as I first thought, but it's not too low?

Edit-Actually, given I don't weigh a lot, 50g is probably too low for most of the forum folks.
Where should I hand in my smart card?
Liset, no problem, the fact that you looked it back up and tried to revise your statements based on what you found means you should keep your smart card.

It's pretty normal to have some general notions that maybe was never checked too carefully or fully put in the proper context.  But as long as we remain willing to look back to what evidence and sources we had for holding a position and then unbiasedly compare it with new facts and more accurate analysis, when challenged, we're all going to be better for it and maybe have extra chances to learn and refine our knowledge.

For proteins, as people mentioned the values you were citing are basically the RDA as in amount recommended for just minimum maintenance, not what is ideal for growth and athletic performance.
So yes the 50g a day you mentioned is ok for you to avoid health complications from having too little protein, but there is still much room for actual improvement and you can definitely double or even triple that and still get additional benefits to your training from the extra protein (see one of the many studies on this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1474076)

Now, protein is not without problems, if you have a bad diet and lifestyle it can actually cause various complications and that's one of the reasons why sometimes doctors might tell some of their patients to reduce the amount of protein they consume. But that's not an intrinsic problem in the amount of protein but rather in the mix of poor diets, lack of exercise, and mismatched amounts of protein given these conditions.  For example, proteins are acidifying and if your diet is bad and doesn't balance them with things from the opposite pH spectrum like vegetables, you can run into problems (e.g., http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/6/1051 )
And if you are sick or recovering from something, processing the extra protein can be a strain on some of your systems (renal, hepatic etc) which might be bad if those systems are compromised to begin with. But if you are healthy and have a good balanced diet and good amount of exercise, then the extra protein is just what you want, as many studies showed.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Sick
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2009, 12:08:24 PM »
Now, protein is not without problems, if you have a bad diet and lifestyle it can actually cause various complications and that's one of the reasons why sometimes doctors might tell some of their patients to reduce the amount of protein they consume. But that's not an intrinsic problem in the amount of protein but rather in the mix of poor diets, lack of exercise, and mismatched amounts of protein given these conditions.  For example, proteins are acidifying and if your diet is bad and doesn't balance them with things from the opposite pH spectrum like vegetables, you can run into problems (e.g., http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/6/1051 )
And if you are sick or recovering from something, processing the extra protein can be a strain on some of your systems (renal, hepatic etc) which might be bad if those systems are compromised to begin with. But if you are healthy and have a good balanced diet and good amount of exercise, then the extra protein is just what you want, as many studies showed.

Well said.

Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Sick
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2009, 01:21:32 PM »
There might be more to vitamins than we know.  I heard a lot of stuff being thrown around about the "maximum" dosage of things, so I'd like to point out this: http://www.popsci.com/node/32093.  Even in the article the featured dietitian recommends taking a multivitamin for a safety net.

Offline Patrick Yang

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Re: Sick
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2009, 02:42:00 PM »
And if you are sick or recovering from something, processing the extra protein can be a strain on some of your systems (renal, hepatic etc) which might be bad if those systems are compromised to begin with. But if you are healthy and have a good balanced diet and good amount of exercise, then the extra protein is just what you want, as many studies showed.

Being a moderately active practitioner of the art in his mid- to late-twenties on medications that exert a constant renal and hepatic stress, this has been one of my major concerns about switching to a higher protein diet.  Myriad factors — a slowing metabolism, medications, a relatively active lifestyle, a clean diet — makes the issue rather confusing to me.  Are there any articles that ye gods of fitness could point me to on this topic?
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Offline tombb

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Re: Sick
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2009, 01:51:27 PM »
And if you are sick or recovering from something, processing the extra protein can be a strain on some of your systems (renal, hepatic etc) which might be bad if those systems are compromised to begin with. But if you are healthy and have a good balanced diet and good amount of exercise, then the extra protein is just what you want, as many studies showed.

Being a moderately active practitioner of the art in his mid- to late-twenties on medications that exert a constant renal and hepatic stress, this has been one of my major concerns about switching to a higher protein diet.  Myriad factors — a slowing metabolism, medications, a relatively active lifestyle, a clean diet — makes the issue rather confusing to me.  Are there any articles that ye gods of fitness could point me to on this topic?
Patrick,
whenever there is a medical condition + medication with potential side effects, it's difficult to know or tell you what will happen under non-average situations. That's because what we know about a medication is based on tests in average conditions (e.g., usually not highly active and on a high protein but healthy diet for example). So it would be hard to find data on such a specific combination of factors.

Usually at best you can go by the type of medical condition and the class of drugs and try to at least guesstimate areas of potential problems based on their known average mechanism of action, but it's still not quite an ideal solution because some complications and unwanted interactions can be hard to anticipate (ever watch House? It's kinda like that hehe). And even in those cases people sometimes discover problems that only come up after prolonged use of a medication under average-to-bad lifestyle, like for beta-blockers for blood-pressure etc.

However what I think you should do is come up with a good way to monitor relevant parameters frequently as you slowly and progressively try new changes in diet and exercise, and use that as a feedback to see if you are making things better or worse, and adjust accordingly. You can talk it over with your doctor, listing your medications, condition, and plan for changes in diet and exercise, and then come up together with some reasonable tests (e.g., not expensive, not intrusive) to monitor things. So for example maybe some blood tests and urine tests related to kidney function etc.

Offline Patrick Yang

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Re: Sick
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2009, 02:14:33 PM »
However what I think you should do is come up with a good way to monitor relevant parameters frequently as you slowly and progressively try new changes in diet and exercise, and use that as a feedback to see if you are making things better or worse, and adjust accordingly. You can talk it over with your doctor, listing your medications, condition, and plan for changes in diet and exercise, and then come up together with some reasonable tests (e.g., not expensive, not intrusive) to monitor things. So for example maybe some blood tests and urine tests related to kidney function etc.

Thanks for the suggestions, tombb.  I've told my doctor about my increase in protein consumption and decrease in carbohydrate consumption, and he mentioned that many people had success with the Mediterranean diet.  Getting frequent blood work done is prohibitively expensive currently.  I currently get blood work done anyway every three or four months, and it includes kidney and liver function.  So on a longer scale, it's taken care of.  I was just hoping for some material to read so that my actions could be more proäctive instead of remedial.
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Offline tombb

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Re: Sick
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2009, 02:31:31 PM »
However what I think you should do is come up with a good way to monitor relevant parameters frequently as you slowly and progressively try new changes in diet and exercise, and use that as a feedback to see if you are making things better or worse, and adjust accordingly. You can talk it over with your doctor, listing your medications, condition, and plan for changes in diet and exercise, and then come up together with some reasonable tests (e.g., not expensive, not intrusive) to monitor things. So for example maybe some blood tests and urine tests related to kidney function etc.

Thanks for the suggestions, tombb.  I've told my doctor about my increase in protein consumption and decrease in carbohydrate consumption, and he mentioned that many people had success with the Mediterranean diet.  Getting frequent blood work done is prohibitively expensive currently.  I currently get blood work done anyway every three or four months, and it includes kidney and liver function.  So on a longer scale, it's taken care of.  I was just hoping for some material to read so that my actions could be more proäctive instead of remedial.
Well in that case consider even something as simple as http://www.craigmedical.com/urine_diagnostics.htm
they cost you about $19 every 100 tests, or 19c per use (50c for the more complete test) and you can measure even 3-4 times a day at home :)
And try to read up more on anything you can find on the particular medication you are taking (search by medication type, like beta-blockers, ace inhibitors, etc and look for side effects, interactions with different diets/lifestyles etc), and simple things like impact of protein on kidney and liver function.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 02:35:12 PM by tombb »

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Sick
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2009, 04:57:22 PM »
However what I think you should do is come up with a good way to monitor relevant parameters frequently as you slowly and progressively try new changes in diet and exercise, and use that as a feedback to see if you are making things better or worse, and adjust accordingly. You can talk it over with your doctor, listing your medications, condition, and plan for changes in diet and exercise, and then come up together with some reasonable tests (e.g., not expensive, not intrusive) to monitor things. So for example maybe some blood tests and urine tests related to kidney function etc.

Thanks for the suggestions, tombb.  I've told my doctor about my increase in protein consumption and decrease in carbohydrate consumption, and he mentioned that many people had success with the Mediterranean diet.  Getting frequent blood work done is prohibitively expensive currently.  I currently get blood work done anyway every three or four months, and it includes kidney and liver function.  So on a longer scale, it's taken care of.  I was just hoping for some material to read so that my actions could be more proäctive instead of remedial.
Well in that case consider even something as simple as http://www.craigmedical.com/urine_diagnostics.htm
they cost you about $19 every 100 tests, or 19c per use (50c for the more complete test) and you can measure even 3-4 times a day at home :)
And try to read up more on anything you can find on the particular medication you are taking (search by medication type, like beta-blockers, ace inhibitors, etc and look for side effects, interactions with different diets/lifestyles etc), and simple things like impact of protein on kidney and liver function.

Epic.

I think i am going to get some, actually.  It never occurred to me to buy those.

Offline Pave_the_Planet

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Re: Sick
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2009, 12:17:39 PM »
A multivitamin that gives you all the vitamin A you need in one sitting. Which is bad, because Vitamin A is stored in your fat and you CAN overdose on it. Last I heard it was losing it's cult following after the FDA bitch slapped it for vitamin over dose.

I am fairly certain there are very few reported cases of Vit A overdosing....aside from eating polar bear liver nightly...
I do that ALL the time.

Offline Shawn Meilicke

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Re: Sick
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2009, 04:50:00 PM »
i really think this has gone off-topic, the question was about getting over a cold, not how much of [insert mineral, vitamin, etc.] should be taken daily and how the FDA is full of douche baggery
though i realize AT FIRST it had something to do with it, the last two pages was "vitamin a!!" "vitamin a >:(" "protein!!!" "protein >:("

back to colds please? (im interested in this a lot because im sick right now...)


but to add to the original reason this was posted, i was just reading something today that drinking warm milk with some honey in it around four times a day will get rid of a cold in around 48 hours. ive heard great things about honey, we should use it more often; why do you think bears go to such great lengths to get honey from a bees nest?
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