Author Topic: Parkour in the X-Games...  (Read 32469 times)

Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2009, 09:06:44 PM »
I'm against all competition within parkour.  Especially within the X-Games.  The X-Games because parkour shouldn't be classified in the same thing as BMX and skaters.  It isn't a sport, it is a discipline.

I do parkour for myself and others.  I don't train for fame or glory.  It isn't entirely true that parkour is without competition.  It is without competition with each other.  The competition is with ourselves.  Striving to become better.  We challenge ourselves, not others.

And I have a quote here by Matthew W. that I like to remember.
"The philosophy defines the movement, the movement does not define the philosophy."

Even if they called such a competition "Parkour Championships".  Even if the competitors were traceurs.  Even if it looks like parkour.  It isn't.  And it never will be.  You have the wrong philosophy running your head.  You wouldn't be doing parkour.  You would be making a bunch of movements not for the sake of getting from point A to point B as fast as possible.  Not to help other people.  Not to better yourself.  But to only to be better than your opponents.  I hate saying that.  No single traceur should be seen as an enemy to another.  We all fight the same fight and we're all on the same side.  We help and inspire others to grow and learn and fight the same battle.
The only competition in parkour is against ourselves.

Healthy competition is healthy, like slapping stickers to see how high you can wall run just for fun.  But you and I should both be smart enough to know that if anything like this becomes official it will degrade.  Gradually and slowly it will begin to lose its meaning.  It will soon be all about the competition and not about the philosophy.  I am not against competition, I am against competition with each other.

Offline Greg Davis

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2009, 09:33:17 PM »
Thank You, that's all I was trying to convey.
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Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2009, 08:47:22 AM »
I'm against all competition within parkour.  Especially within the X-Games.  The X-Games because parkour shouldn't be classified in the same thing as BMX and skaters.  It isn't a sport, it is a discipline.

I do parkour for myself and others.  I don't train for fame or glory.  It isn't entirely true that parkour is without competition.  It is without competition with each other.  The competition is with ourselves.  Striving to become better.  We challenge ourselves, not others.

And I have a quote here by Matthew W. that I like to remember.
"The philosophy defines the movement, the movement does not define the philosophy."

Even if they called such a competition "Parkour Championships".  Even if the competitors were traceurs.  Even if it looks like parkour.  It isn't.  And it never will be.  You have the wrong philosophy running your head.  You wouldn't be doing parkour.  You would be making a bunch of movements not for the sake of getting from point A to point B as fast as possible.  Not to help other people.  Not to better yourself.  But to only to be better than your opponents.  I hate saying that.  No single traceur should be seen as an enemy to another.  We all fight the same fight and we're all on the same side.  We help and inspire others to grow and learn and fight the same battle.
The only competition in parkour is against ourselves.

Healthy competition is healthy, like slapping stickers to see how high you can wall run just for fun.  But you and I should both be smart enough to know that if anything like this becomes official it will degrade.  Gradually and slowly it will begin to lose its meaning.  It will soon be all about the competition and not about the philosophy.  I am not against competition, I am against competition with each other.

What exactly qualifies you as a parkour philosophy expert?  I'm sick of hearing people say that the philosophy of parkour is against competition.  According to whom?  David Belle is about as active in the community as the bannana next to me on the desk.  Should we remember and respect him for bringing parkour to us?  Yes.  Should we continue to look to him for advice which is obviously not forthcoming?  No.  You say that you do parkour for yourself and others, why does that have to change?  Just because some people are competing somewhere why is that going to affect your training?  Your right about it not being parkour though.  People do parkour maybe once a week, the rest of it is training for parkour, but i'm still kind've confused why you would bring that up.  Whens the last time that you did parkour.

Offline Chris Kessler

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2009, 09:21:54 AM »
What exactly qualifies you as a parkour philosophy expert?  I'm sick of hearing people say that the philosophy of parkour is against competition.  According to whom?  David Belle is about as active in the community as the bannana next to me on the desk.  Should we remember and respect him for bringing parkour to us?  Yes.  Should we continue to look to him for advice which is obviously not forthcoming?  No.  You say that you do parkour for yourself and others, why does that have to change?  Just because some people are competing somewhere why is that going to affect your training?  Your right about it not being parkour though.  People do parkour maybe once a week, the rest of it is training for parkour, but i'm still kind've confused why you would bring that up.  Whens the last time that you did parkour.



That's like saying, "Let's ignore the teachings of Plato, Socrates, Ghandi, Malcolm X. They aren't here, and this is now, their teachings were nice, but now it's time for us to 'make up' out own way."

There IS a philosophy to parkour. Parkour as it started. Be strong to help others, point A to point B, efficiency; these are all parts of the parkour philosophy. Just because the founder is a recluse doesn't mean that parkour itself has to change. AKA Freerunning. Parkour didn't change, Freerunning was born from it.

If you have a competition, call it freerunning and I'm sure most of us will be happy with that.

Honestly, I don't give a damn what you call it, but at least I have to courtesy to respect others' opinions and values and not to tread on what they believe in.

What makes him an expert on parkour philosophy? Well, he's a traceur, and he obviously has read up on his stuff. What makes you an expert critic? The door goes both ways. Keep it civil, don't use snide comments like "What makes you an expert..." Because degrading your critical thinking skills down to that level defeats the whole purpose of argument.
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Offline danhezee

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2009, 10:53:47 AM »

That's like saying, "Let's ignore the teachings of Plato, Socrates, Ghandi, Malcolm X. They aren't here, and this is now, their teachings were nice, but now it's time for us to 'make up' out own way."


I nominate the quoted line above as biggest strawman of 2009.  And yes we do ignore some of the teaching of Plato and Socrates. IIRC, Socrates taught the solar system revolved around the earth and used the retrograde and prograde movements of the planets as proof. There are several examples of both of them being wrong, but we continue to respect them.  As far as Ghandi and Malcolm X,  many people respect them but I doubt that even you agree with everything they taught 100%.

But on a more serious note, I like the idea of the xgames hosting a parkour challenge.  It could be like ninja warrior have several predefined courses.  The first course is open to all takers those who survive get to go to the next challenge.

Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2009, 04:16:45 PM »
Theres always a time where the student should surpass the master.  There are many arguments for either side, so i'll just present one real quick.  It is almost selfish to not have parkour competitions.  The reason for this is this would bring unparalleled exposure to parkour.  Think about how much parkour has changed your life, now wouldn't you want that for everybody else?  We would have much more people starting to do parkour.  You might argue that people might not have the true philosophy of parkour in their hearts, or something similar.  However, why would it matter if it is making that person more useful, more fit, and maybe even a better person all around.  Competition would also bring out the best of training.  When competition becomes big, we will begin to see what people are really capable of.  Right now there isn't a single person in the world who is training for parkour to the extent they could be (oly lifting all the time, sprints, nutrition, plyo's, weights etc...)  This is what competition would allow.  It would bring whole new levels of training, and improvement to the community.

Offline Patrick Yang

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2009, 05:19:20 PM »
Sat, although I agree that we can spread parkour to more people with the X-Games, I argue that it would be difficult to keep it as the right kind of exposure.  Already YouTube has done the community a great disservice in that for every good piece of parkour media out on the web, there are scores more made with the "go big or go home" attitude.  It's hard to control how media edited and produced by third parties portray the discipline.  When you're talking about something that reaches such a wide audience, how can we keep people from watching it and jumping off of fifteen-foot ledges and calling it parkour?  Without being able to expound on the importance of proper conditioning, without the control to give them the entire picture, we do more harm than good.
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Offline Dan Elric

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2009, 07:11:30 PM »
Theres always a time where the student should surpass the master.  There are many arguments for either side, so i'll just present one real quick.  It is almost selfish to not have parkour competitions.  The reason for this is this would bring unparalleled exposure to parkour.  Think about how much parkour has changed your life, now wouldn't you want that for everybody else?  We would have much more people starting to do parkour.  You might argue that people might not have the true philosophy of parkour in their hearts, or something similar.  However, why would it matter if it is making that person more useful, more fit, and maybe even a better person all around.  Competition would also bring out the best of training.  When competition becomes big, we will begin to see what people are really capable of.  Right now there isn't a single person in the world who is training for parkour to the extent they could be (oly lifting all the time, sprints, nutrition, plyo's, weights etc...)  This is what competition would allow.  It would bring whole new levels of training, and improvement to the community.
I have a bone to pick with you.

It is every master's dream for the student to surpass them.  And yet... It is not up to the students to decide when they have surpassed their master.  The master will be the one to say who has surpassed who.  By claiming yourself to be better than those who taught you, you only prove how much you have yet to learn.

Unparalleled exposure hmm?  I agree that it would bring parkour into the light.  However, this would be the wrong type of exposure.  It is better to expose fewer people to the true face of parkour than to simply expose more people to what appears to be parkour.  There is a  reason Parkour Generations and Majestic Force are teaming up to ensure not just the movements of parkour are taught correctly, but the philosophy behind it.  It would be folly to disregard these founders.  I'm sure you heard that Australian traceur that said he did parkour for the thrill.  I don't expose thrill seekers to parkour.  In fact, when there are "hot-shot jocks" around I don't train on anything that looks cool so they won't try to copy me.  I've had a kid copy a rail precision that was four feet above the ground.  He could of easily slipped and cracked his head open.  I had spent nearly a year getting to this point that I had stressed to them before NOT to do it.  He goes and does it anyway.  What does that say to the people who see all of these moves on the X-Games even if they have plenty of warnings they say, "Don't try this at home."
It is important to spread parkour to those who want to learn it, but only to those doing it because they love doing it, not for the thrill it gives.  I started parkour because it appealed to me.  Not the thrill.  The difference.  I wanted to learn it because it was something different and it amazed me.  A week later when I went to the PKGen's training in Columbus, albeit for one day.  I truly learned what parkour was about.  I met someone who my first initial thoughts of was that he was some type of laid back "too cool for you" emo kid.  I honestly thought that.  I was kind of revolted by his appearance.  But he turned out to be extremely nice.  My prejudice was folly.  It wasn't just him though.  Every traceur I met there, every single one was kind, courteous, helpful, nice, and I could tell there was some type of magical attraction between all of us.  Everyone respected everyone.  It was an unspoken mutual respect.  It amazed me.  There was like what? Fifty to seventy-five people there on the second training day and they all got along.  It didn't matter how good you were, it didn't matter how high you could wall run.  You were treated with the same respect regardless of your skill level.  THIS is what parkour is about.
I fear competition would destroy this bond.  We would want to become better than others.  We would think ourselves higher than others.  Suddenly it matters that your better than someone.  Suddenly animosity would form.  The bond would be destroyed.  Parkour would be destroyed.

Competition would bring out the worst.  A precision has the weight of everything up to this moment on it.  You are bogged down by expectations of others.  What if you're not the best?  What if you're not the greatest?  What will happen to you?  It is like you're wearing weights.  Weights that will keep you from flying.  People will take risks for the sake of the gold, risks we always stress not to take.  Do you not understand that we don't train to do parkour?  We should be training parkour because we love doing it, not for any reason.  I know nearly everyone here will agree with me when I say that I bet no one who has been training parkour for a year or more isn't in it for anything but the love of doing it.

Parkour shouldn't be lumped into being an X-Game.  Everywhere people say it'll become the next skating.  I fear they may be right.

Offline PKAB

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2009, 07:29:49 PM »
Lets face it Parkour looks cool. Many people go to skate parks with a Skatboard and just stand around. Why? because it looks cool. Parkour is being pulled closer and closer to being the next skateboarding. I believe we should fight this current. My reason is that Skateboarding is done mostly by people that 1. want to get girls 2. want to look cool 3. TO hang out with cool people. Now I respect Boarders but you have to admit this is true to some extent :-\. A huge part of Parkour is its Philosophy and inspirational depth. Now if Parkour became an X-game we all know it would be exploited and advertised as, well, an extreme sport for lack of better wording. I thought most of us agreed parkour was developed as an art, not a sport. COmpetition may very well wash away parkours values. Now local jams with races, games, ext are extremely fun and i enjoy doing that kind of thing with friends but if Parkour was an X game pretty soon all the kids that know nothing about it other than it looks cool will wash in like crazy. I just want to keep parkours values preserved.
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Offline Greg Davis

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2009, 08:45:07 PM »
+1 Daniel and PKAB
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Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2009, 09:41:48 PM »
Theres always a time where the student should surpass the master.  There are many arguments for either side, so i'll just present one real quick.  It is almost selfish to not have parkour competitions.  The reason for this is this would bring unparalleled exposure to parkour.  Think about how much parkour has changed your life, now wouldn't you want that for everybody else?  We would have much more people starting to do parkour.  You might argue that people might not have the true philosophy of parkour in their hearts, or something similar.  However, why would it matter if it is making that person more useful, more fit, and maybe even a better person all around.  Competition would also bring out the best of training.  When competition becomes big, we will begin to see what people are really capable of.  Right now there isn't a single person in the world who is training for parkour to the extent they could be (oly lifting all the time, sprints, nutrition, plyo's, weights etc...)  This is what competition would allow.  It would bring whole new levels of training, and improvement to the community.
I have a bone to pick with you.

It is every master's dream for the student to surpass them.  And yet... It is not up to the students to decide when they have surpassed their master.  The master will be the one to say who has surpassed who.  By claiming yourself to be better than those who taught you, you only prove how much you have yet to learn.

Unparalleled exposure hmm?  I agree that it would bring parkour into the light.  However, this would be the wrong type of exposure.  It is better to expose fewer people to the true face of parkour than to simply expose more people to what appears to be parkour.  There is a  reason Parkour Generations and Majestic Force are teaming up to ensure not just the movements of parkour are taught correctly, but the philosophy behind it.  It would be folly to disregard these founders.  I'm sure you heard that Australian traceur that said he did parkour for the thrill.  I don't expose thrill seekers to parkour.  In fact, when there are "hot-shot jocks" around I don't train on anything that looks cool so they won't try to copy me.  I've had a kid copy a rail precision that was four feet above the ground.  He could of easily slipped and cracked his head open.  I had spent nearly a year getting to this point that I had stressed to them before NOT to do it.  He goes and does it anyway.  What does that say to the people who see all of these moves on the X-Games even if they have plenty of warnings they say, "Don't try this at home."
It is important to spread parkour to those who want to learn it, but only to those doing it because they love doing it, not for the thrill it gives.  I started parkour because it appealed to me.  Not the thrill.  The difference.  I wanted to learn it because it was something different and it amazed me.  A week later when I went to the PKGen's training in Columbus, albeit for one day.  I truly learned what parkour was about.  I met someone who my first initial thoughts of was that he was some type of laid back "too cool for you" emo kid.  I honestly thought that.  I was kind of revolted by his appearance.  But he turned out to be extremely nice.  My prejudice was folly.  It wasn't just him though.  Every traceur I met there, every single one was kind, courteous, helpful, nice, and I could tell there was some type of magical attraction between all of us.  Everyone respected everyone.  It was an unspoken mutual respect.  It amazed me.  There was like what? Fifty to seventy-five people there on the second training day and they all got along.  It didn't matter how good you were, it didn't matter how high you could wall run.  You were treated with the same respect regardless of your skill level.  THIS is what parkour is about.
I fear competition would destroy this bond.  We would want to become better than others.  We would think ourselves higher than others.  Suddenly it matters that your better than someone.  Suddenly animosity would form.  The bond would be destroyed.  Parkour would be destroyed.

Competition would bring out the worst.  A precision has the weight of everything up to this moment on it.  You are bogged down by expectations of others.  What if you're not the best?  What if you're not the greatest?  What will happen to you?  It is like you're wearing weights.  Weights that will keep you from flying.  People will take risks for the sake of the gold, risks we always stress not to take.  Do you not understand that we don't train to do parkour?  We should be training parkour because we love doing it, not for any reason.  I know nearly everyone here will agree with me when I say that I bet no one who has been training parkour for a year or more isn't in it for anything but the love of doing it.

Parkour shouldn't be lumped into being an X-Game.  Everywhere people say it'll become the next skating.  I fear they may be right.

+1 well posted sir.  Alright where to begin, haha this is endless!  You talk about the master deciding when the student has surpassed them, but there is no master like that in parkour.  There is nobody really that I look upto as the ultimate authority in parkour right now.  I'm actually not really a fan of the yamakasi or pkgen much at all.  Especially Dan Edwardes that guy is the biggest elitist D-bag around (even coming from people that have met him) The yamakasi may have the mental side of the whole parkour thing down, but their training methods are pretty much useless in my opinion for a lot of things.  Sure they might build up your mental toughness, but hey so will kicking yourself in the balls (that'll go a lot quicker too)  I agree that we do need to worry about the people who see it and go out and try stupid shit, but honestly they would probably see parkour at some point in their lives and do that anyway.  If anything the competition will bring some legitimacy to the sport.  I don't see why it is any different for BMX.  That is, why don't people go out and try a backflip on a bicycle right away?  Some people do, and there will always be those people.  We are not going to be able to account for all these people, and it is silly to even try.  As far as the jam atmosphere being ruined i don't think thats a problem.  I agree the jam atmosphere at the COPK jam yearly has been amazingly awesome.  Only a small majority of those people would have competed and they probably would all be friends.  Competition is just the next logical step for the growth of parkour.  Like media before it, people are scared about what might happen.  When parkour was first introduced in movies people said that it would ruin parkour, or that the person was selling out.  People even said that about B13.  The new thing will always be scary to some people but we just have to embrace it before it forces itself upon us.  Lets face it, competition will happen.  My only worry is that it won't be done right.  Thats why I think the community needs to come together and just try to make it the best possible scenario it can possibly be.

Offline Eric Tracy

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2009, 05:37:38 PM »
I'm glad that you guys are getting so into this thread and it has caused me to sway back and forth on this issue once or twice.

This being said I think that this issue is part of a bigger issue, The Advancement of Parkour
   so i'm going to repost it under this title to open it up more and get into some new and different discussions about how we plan to meaninfully spread PK to the world in a respectful way.

So look for the topic The Advancement of Parkour and i will leave this topic open for a little longer...

Thx,
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Offline Stephanie Belle Hagan

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2009, 06:56:29 PM »
Um. I wish I could contribute to this, but WOW. I'm seriously just wow'ed. I can't handle it. My brain needs to like, digest the beauty of all the posts. +1 to Daniel, PKAB, Sat, etc... you guys all bring up fantastic interesting points.  :D

I need to lie down lol. Seriously. I mean it. I'm getting lightheaded. I have tears in my eyes. What can I say? I get emotional. 
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Offline Shane Warren

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2009, 07:05:22 PM »
Putting this on the air will induce the thought that its a extreme sport and then we will have 3 week newbies jumping off their houses
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Offline Sat Santokh

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2009, 11:08:02 PM »
Putting this on the air will induce the thought that its a extreme sport and then we will have 3 week newbies jumping off their houses

Did you bother to read anything

Offline hillexallen

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2009, 12:25:47 PM »
Why do you guys think that it is pk to have parkour competitions? Parkour and freerunning are both non-competitive!
Here are some things to think about:

1. Competition pushes people to do dangerous things that their bodies are not physically prepared for. The point of parkour is "to be and to last", and competition would completely contradict tyhat. Should we stay true to parkour, or change it into a more dangerous sport, where rivalries and hatred are encouraged?

2. The art of displacement, parkour, and freerunning are all non-competitive. The founders have said that many times. If there were to be a parkour competition, would it even qualify as parkour? I think not, and I don't think that companies should be able to use the name of our discipline to make money off of competitions aren't even about our discipline.

3. Do we want eyeryone to get into parkour? I don't. I think the reason that most traceurs are smart, kind people, is that only smart, kind people understand parkour. If we change parkour into something that everyone can understand and practice, we will have more negative people in our community.

I am really ashamed that traceurs would even THINK about p[romoting parkour competition. Non-competition is one of the most important parts of parkour!!!

Offline hillexallen

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2009, 12:41:06 PM »
Parkour in the X-Games would definitely not help parkour, it would hurt it immensely.

Offline TR

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2009, 02:57:07 PM »
Competition is just the next logical step for the growth of parkour.

How is it the next "logical" step? It's been stated over and over and over again. Parkour isn't against others. It's against yourself. To improve yourself, FOR yourself, not for some competition. If Parkour was made into a competition, I can just imagine these new competitive guys coming out to jams and being competitive with EVERYONE, challenging them to do this and that, etc. Oh sure, you can say we don't know what competition will bring, and you think it will ALL just be positive? And to come up with a possible scenario:

What if someone new to our "discipline" (Which would be gone by the way if competition was introduced. Parkour would just be another new sport). They go out and do things to see what they can do, how big they can go, rushing their training, etc. just for the next competition. It would only be damaging to those new "practitioners". Which would at the same time, give Parkour a bad name all over the place. Possibly getting Parkour banned in certain areas because of its new found recklessness and danger. Of course, this is just a "what if" scenario. I guess you can also assume this would never happen, just as I can assume it will.

People would get into parkour for the competition, not for the core values and benefits true Parkour brings. I think that's pretty much guaranteed right there if competition was introduced.

Offline hillexallen

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2009, 04:53:05 PM »
Competition is just the next logical step for the growth of parkour.

How is it the next "logical" step? It's been stated over and over and over again. Parkour isn't against others. It's against yourself. To improve yourself, FOR yourself, not for some competition. If Parkour was made into a competition, I can just imagine these new competitive guys coming out to jams and being competitive with EVERYONE, challenging them to do this and that, etc. Oh sure, you can say we don't know what competition will bring, and you think it will ALL just be positive? And to come up with a possible scenario:

What if someone new to our "discipline" (Which would be gone by the way if competition was introduced. Parkour would just be another new sport). They go out and do things to see what they can do, how big they can go, rushing their training, etc. just for the next competition. It would only be damaging to those new "practitioners". Which would at the same time, give Parkour a bad name all over the place. Possibly getting Parkour banned in certain areas because of its new found recklessness and danger. Of course, this is just a "what if" scenario. I guess you can also assume this would never happen, just as I can assume it will.

People would get into parkour for the competition, not for the core values and benefits true Parkour brings. I think that's pretty much guaranteed right there if competition was introduced.

I agree!!! Parkour cannot be competitive!!!

Offline Mathew C

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Re: Parkour in the X-Games...
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2009, 07:22:53 PM »
Competition is inherent in parkour

Now take that finger off the caps lock  :P and listen to this

   As traceurs, we all strive for self-improvement, and to do so successfully in the long term, we have to be smart about it. This means we have to know our limits, and know how to gauge progress so that we neither hurt ourselves in haste nor grow stagnant, satisfied with maintenance. Our focus (in terms of the quantifiable goals we set) should be constant self-improvement about all else, and to the exclusion of all else.
   Now, what is competition? It is the defining attribute of a setting or situation in which the determined goal is to exceed, outdo, dominate (etc.) a peer in some demonstration of skill or ability. At first this seems to be complementary to the idea of self-improvement - after all, a little competition pushes us to try harder, right? Right (no sarcasm in case anyone reading this is confused). However, not all competition is beneficial to the parkour lifestyle - only smart competition.
   Competition against other people is very un-smart. Every body is different, so to set a standard for YOUR body based on what someone else's can do is nonsensical, and such a standard will almost never be exactly aligned with what your goals would be based on the criteria in paragraph 1. When, then, is competition complementary, and even essential to parkour?When you compete against yourself.

There is only one traceur you should ever strive to outdo: yourself two weeks ago.