Author Topic: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis  (Read 11968 times)

Offline Jereme Sanders

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2006, 02:10:40 PM »
Here it says L'art Du Deplacement came first...in fact it is a PK timeline....

http://parkour.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4990&forum=1
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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2006, 02:22:19 PM »
Yes, but it was basically another name for the same art, they just chose something different after the split with Yamakasi. L' Art Du Deplacement was what they were practicing first, but as it grew in popularity, it became something that was never intended, so they dropped the name and began to use Parkour.

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2006, 02:48:08 PM »
So the yamakasi don't do L'art Du Deplacement?
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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2006, 03:04:05 PM »
1. You shouldn't put any weight on your arm...it's really only for guidance

Both Belle and Cyril use their arms; some situations more, some less. I made this a point to check this out and discuss it with them in depth so that I could dispell alot of myths and the Bad/Dangerous tutorials out there. ;)

Quote
2. You say "you can put your hands wherever you want"....that's not really the case, put them too far forward and you take the entire impact with your hands, too far back and you fall straight onto your back.

Not true at all. All depends on momentum and position. Just as there is not one set position you will drop from, there is not one position one should always put their hands.

In the end...

Tutorials are stupid. People read them/watch them and then move like lemmings.

Cheers my friends.

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2006, 03:20:03 PM »
And yet, his tutorial is for a kneeling roll. Can you put your hands anywhere you want? If you put them three feet in front of you, do you have good form? I doubt it.

I agree, there is no set position for your hands, but for a set starting position with set momentum there will be.

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Both Belle and Cyril use their arms; some situations more, some less. I made this a point to check this out and discuss it with them in depth so that I could dispell alot of myths and the Bad/Dangerous tutorials out there.

So dispell them. Right now you are being pretty ambiguous.

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Tutorials are stupid. People read them/watch them and then move like lemmings.

If they do so, that is a fault in the individual, but I feel that tutorials are a great starting point when you don't have personal interaction with a more-experienced person to draw from. For many people, tutorials are a great place to begin, from there, they can perfect and then modify the movements as they see fit.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 03:22:31 PM by gear »

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2006, 06:00:16 PM »
And yet, his tutorial is for a kneeling roll. Can you put your hands anywhere you want? If you put them three feet in front of you, do you have good form? I doubt it.
I agree, there is no set position for your hands, but for a set starting position with set momentum there will be.

Yes I just tried it, I even measured out 3 feet for you. =P
If you take it one step up and start from a crouch (which they will eventually do and I hope he mentioned it) then you can vary your hands even more.
Me naturally being 6'0 I put mine 2 1/2 feet infront of me wereas a smaller person would do less a bigger person may do more so what does your number mean anyways? I could put them 5 feet infront from a crouch and still roll perfectly because where your hands are dont infact do THAT MUCH for form. Its funny because me and Dimmonk have been working on something for a while that shows this thing infact many different ways and styles.... Will it ever be released .. who knows with us because these computers arent our 'fortes' .. ha ha ha ... but you can definetly have a great roll with any distance your hands go (good in real world based on situation of course ;)). Momentum has nothing to do with it... A proper roll there should be no extra momentum created by your arms anyways because you are just transferring momemtum from your drop into a run. David and Cyril both confirmed this with me. Cyril even say ... "But why? Are you trying to kill yourself?"

I noticed in the states alot of people swing into their stationary rolls... Great for learning or martial arts! ... bad for Parkour. I dunno why anyone would want to swing past the point of correcting their form since generating even more force from a high drop would be deadly if you even landed a little bit wrong which happens to the best of us. Why learn the wrong way then have to correct it? I stop people from even doing that here. Shit! A great example was when the news reporter was trying to learn here from m2 and she was killing herself landing into the floor because of that swing! WHY! Didnt upset me (hence why I sat and watched with my friends) but why teach this way? Another common thing swingers do is hit their hips/backs at the end of the roll really hard... Its unfortunate watching that too.

With a proper roll you learn to harness and transfer whatever momentum you have already generated by dropping your torso into the run afterwards. Infact, you can remain stationary 1 inch from the floor with my legs almost straight, hold that position, and STILL roll properly with awesome form by just falling the remainder from there.

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If they do so, that is a fault in the individual

Yes and no, but I side more with no. We are teachers in our communities, what we do and say it watched a lot and mimicked by people wether we like it or not. If you shun people for doing something a little bit differently then where does that get you? Your just being what you dont want to be called in the first place right? I can't do that... I stress safety but beyond that I tell people to experiment with themselves, training lemmings is horrible, theres already enough out there and Ive backed away enough the past 8-12 months that I dont do it anymore.

The cool thing about Parkour is there isnt one set form and there isnt one set way of doing anything, you must find the way that works for you. Parkour isnt about Limits or set things. Sometimes people in toronto come back to me and say they had this breakthrough, and wonder why I didnt tell them or say anything to them that would have maybe changed them... Why? The path to self discovery is such a great one that I will aid in small bits but not interfere. These kids come to us with the want to explore, have fun, learn .. whatever! I personally believe our roll is not that of 'army instructors' or 'personal trainers' but rather people to help others find their passions inside. Anytime you limit anything this is taken away.

This site itself keeps saying Parkour isnt about the movements.... but yet now I see people always getting worked up and giving statements about "the way things are" and the form and this and that... Bleh... Backwards.. Totally backwards.

My day out with Exo and Asa proved this to me fully. You can talk to Exo yourself as hes part of the Tribe and he should feel free to talk to you guys in your secret areas... You guys are thinking way too much 'in the box' in the USA from my standpoint and have many things to learn. Learning is a great thing though and I gave them some great new ideas to push their own creativity along! Shit not only there but LA did the exact same thing, same old stuff! Everyone training the way Parkour should be on paper and not the way Parkour really is. (Hence why I hate tutorials and find them worthless)  I sure aint the best traceur in the world and have plenty more to learn myself... but I havent put my name on anything to sell or whatnot that says "this is the way" that in turn I would have to back up to make myself/group look creditable... Remember I'm not here to bash you guys, I could care less what the general american public buys into or what they think is right and wrong. Don't care 1 bit, infact if you are selling a lot, good work! The way I see it Parkour in the world is already messed up enough as is and me going around isn't going to solve anything anytime soon. When I post I post to help with a different opinion and it ends there. You guys are the ones that always get suppppppper dooooper defensive all the time. At the end of the day the good ones always shine through and there are stones in every rough.

When it comes to the roll tutorial on this site so that I sound less "ambiguous"? Sure.

You probably think im going to say the arms, but M2's legs are the biggest and worst problem. Its a great way to learn the roll the way hes teaching there because if you can get that right it gives you the feeling your looking after, but its not a practical real world roll and shouldnt be used anywhere but in the learning process. Again, useful for martial arts (if even though..  because the MA system is flawed enough) but beyond that even the way its described and talked about has various flaws. Cyril actually tried to teach Exo to roll this way just so that he could get the feeling, almost exactly the same... but just like I said the second that tutorial came out, he said the same, "not real world".

I dont know what the DVD says about this style of roll but here I quote:
Quote
Rolling is a foundation movement; you can’t land from height properly if you don’t know how to roll

This is danger because... How does one expect to land safety from height with forward momentum in that goofy position? Common, you guys call yourselves traceurs and dont realize that?!
Ive seen M2 roll really well too on ground using this, but again, your taking 1 persons way (which isnt a great way to land from a drop at all and not even the Tribe do it in their demos) and preaching it as the way on this site / DVD.

I did not watch Matthews, but to be fair I will watch it in a second and comment just so that it seems like Im not just picking on one side. If his is worse trust me I will say it. =P
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 06:02:01 PM by Parkourdan »

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2006, 06:19:41 PM »
haha. I dont like his tutorial at all. Sorry Matthew but its not very good.
Why do you start in the same position m2 is in then kick your foot back first then drop with straight legs? That was strange and confusing and you dont really do much for explaining the roll at all.... specially with your style.

I think there are 2 key things that no one ever talks about in a roll that are super-important.

1. Having a solid position when you hit the ground to avoid collapsing. This involves training leg strength and also air position/feeling. You can see this is the main factor behind bad rolls in most videos.
2. Being able to transfer that momentum from when you hit in that solid position into a run off after.

When I talked to Belle about my list he commented that if you dont have a similar momentum coming out of the roll as what went into it theres a missing link somewhere in your form and its a bad roll. He said most people miss the point of the roll which is just to transfer your momentum to the next thing you are doing and he infact listed that as priority before safety mainly because safety is a given.  He said too many people climb up, drop, roll, over. He said thats the improper way to train that and with each and every roll you should be looking out at something, pick something and make sure mometum from that drop brings you closer to that after the roll.

Not to mention there is not set form or shape or thing you have to do. But we already know that.

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2006, 08:34:22 PM »
danno,
you talk of 'swinging'.  i think i kind of get what you mean, but its still pretty vague.  what exactly are you referring to?
I care because you said that this often leads to hard bashing of the lower back, and i have this problem.  I originally learned to roll in martial arts long before i discovered Parkour. how does one 'not swing'?
i've tried alot of rolling practice on my own, and i feel like i'm at a dead end. i can roll on grass, but concrete is a dirty beast.

Offline Matthew Lee Willis

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2006, 07:14:27 AM »
Well thanks for the constructive critisism.  Yea, I know I totaly screwed up on the history part.  I cant believe that I said william belle.  Thanks for catching that for me.  I think I will contact the people up there at expert village and just tell them to take it off.  Other wise "my Excuse" thread prevents me from making excuses for most of the rest.  I stand behind everything that I had said in any other tutorial except the history thread...I so screwed that up.  For the rolls thing how you roll in russian somba...they roll with straight arms completly to the side of your body.  I also do think that it is important that you use your arms for "some" Shock obsorption...Think of a dive roll.  You have to use your arms.  Other wise thank you demon and the others.
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Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2006, 07:31:53 AM »
Dan,
not sure what you mean by "swinging" ... nothing I teach (that I'm aware of) is a swinging motion.

Also not sure what you mean by "you just sat there with your friends" as you weren't there when I was teaching rolls in toronto? This especially bothers me that you could see someone teaching something you felt was incorrect and stand by allowing people to be potentially hurt?

Anyhow, a bashing of the back in my experience is usually from not rounding the back enough  (yes, a set part of the roll that people must do) think of a wheel with a flat spot, it rolls, then part has no contact, then the next part to contact gets a harsh hit, this happens when people round their upper back, but leave their lower back flat, so then their tailbone or hip area hits after "skipping over" their lower back region.

I agree that each person must find what fits them, but we're all built pretty similarly, regardless of height humans have relatively the same proportions, and most people here will have 2 arms and two legs and a set number of vertabrae and the same muscular system in their back.

As you know, I also disagree with you about hand placement, I'm not sure how you can think "it works well for martial arts but not for Parkour" ... hitting the floor with momentum is relatively the same whether you throw yourself there or someone else does it for you, could you please explain this further? As for the position, "bad" (not measured by a number, as you pointed out, but measured by what is right for each person) hand position is the leading cause of not rounding or not starting the roll on the back of your shoulder. When a person reaches too long they tend to be extedned rather than round, and when they reach too short they tend to crumple, what you are attributing to "leg strength" I attribute to the wrong angle of momentum conversion caused by the person not supporting- not because of strength, but because they are "aiming" for the wrong spot too close to them.

I also know that you disagree with my statement that you shouldn't land flat on your palm, but I ask you to try this: crouch down, put your palms flat on the floor, and now transfer weight gracefully to the back of your shoulder ... by setting your hands palm down you are naturally bracing against a round position, "pushing back" with your hands instead of absorbing.

If you could explain to me in depth the difference between what you know to be right and what I have said I think it would be very helpful to many people.

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2006, 08:44:39 PM »
wait..M2, do you advocate no flat palms on the ground, or yes flat palms?

Offline Matthew Lee Willis

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2006, 08:56:53 PM »
I didnt mean to make trouble...crawls to safety
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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2006, 04:19:06 AM »
Steez I am saying that you do not put your palms flat on the ground for most rolls out of a drop. dive rolls are a different story.
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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2006, 10:16:12 AM »
Ive been massively busy. Trying to co-ordinate the premiere of b13 here and have had little time.

Ill post a video tommorow showing you how you can roll just fine with palms on the floor plus address all your concerns Mark and show you your view is still limited. There are honestly 5-6 different roll techniques (just like theres so many vault variations no one ever practices as they arent listed in 'tutorials') that I have learnt over the past 3.5 years that are all useful and all work pending on the situation... The last one being Cyrils which I learnt and practiced on in LA that took me a good 10 times before I could get right. I dont like his technique with his hands but it STILL works just fine as a roll. For 75% of my rolls I use the meat under my forarm to guide me to put a little pressure here or there to make sure im on track, but Im glad I have learnt to roll from all positions as it comes in handy as I do use my hands too when air position is not optimal or for other reasons. If you cant form an arch with your back having your hands on the floor, my advice is to work on it and try harder because many can.

I will also photoshop the roll tutorial on this site and show you guys how its flawed.

Matthew, you didnt cause any problems. Infact, another source of info is always a good thing so even though your tutorials arent first class, they still help people by giving them another opinion on things. Never discredit yourself or appologize as its wrong to do so, especially in this case.

Cheers for now... Off to watch b13 for the 6,000th time and fall asleep while doing so. =P

Offline Mark Toorock

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2006, 10:27:06 AM »
Cool, looking forward to it, thanks!
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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2006, 10:55:28 AM »
I have to second Danno's point about your tutorials Mathew, I don't mean anything negative by my criticism, but I think that all the information you recieve on them will be of use.

Danno, indeed there are infinite possiblities for movement. Communicating that idea is like making somebody hear the sound of one hand clapping. If you can give them a foundation, they can start the journey towards understanding on their own from that point, like teaching a young Buddhist simple Kung-Fu as one step on their path to enlightenment. On the other hand, you could leave them with this:

The Short Staff

Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"

....but I doubt that would be the most auspicious beginning to their journey.....maybe it's just me ;)

Offline Matthew Lee Willis

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2006, 10:00:49 PM »
I told you all that in my EXCUSE thread that I would not be hard on myself and that I would not make excuses.  Now the HISTORY OF PARKOUR tutorial has got to go.  I didnt plan on taking them all down.  Just the History one.  It is obviously wrong in some parts about the whole screew up with William belle instead of Raymond Belle.  It is easier to take that HISTORY PART off.  I will definitly keep the rest of them up though.  Trust me I am not being HARD on myself.  I dont want people to be taught the wrong thing ESP. about the history.
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Gearsighted

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2006, 05:40:42 AM »
Why all the caps?

Needless to say, I'd think it would be beneficial if there was some way to edit with further information for the other tutorials. Either way, it's nice of you to do something to help. I'll continue with my critique in the first reply I posted as I get a chance.

Offline Matthew Lee Willis

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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2006, 06:15:26 AM »
UPDATE: I was ABLE to TAKE off THE history OF parkour So that THERE would NOT be CONFUSION.
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Re: Tutorials by Matthewleewillis
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2006, 06:49:26 AM »
What about confusion through FAULTY TECHNIQUES?

Also, if you are using caps to BE A DICK, then I can QUICKLY RESOLVE THAT FOR YOU.