Author Topic: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions  (Read 3983 times)

Offline Deshy

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Hey guys I'm new to the boards so please show mercy. I'm not a professional but I'm the best around my area (which is very small)
I Have a fascination with big jumps (excess of 12 ft.) I know im not as bad ass as some of you but ive had alot of problems because of it.
First my farthest drop was 26 ft.
Upon landing i bruised the balls of both feet and tore up my hands pretty bad (I was on concrete)
I know I know i'm supposed to roll out but that lead to another injury i will discuss here.
So the solution i think to the feet was better shoes (more shock absorption) Any suggestions for shoes ( i have Ariakes but the shock absorption is garbage) and for how to treat bruised feet for faster healing. (please dont tell me to stay off my feet im not that dumb lol but i work so thats not an option)
The hands? Should i wear gloves or is there a secret i dont know.

2nd jump
this one was about a 17ft drop from a monkey vault. I landed and rolled out just like I'm supposed to.
Problem is, the concrete shredded my back and shoulder bad enough that people could notice i was bleeding from quite the distance which got alot of unwanted attention from campus security ( i was at a college) every time i roll on a hard surface i rip my skin all to hell.
what the hell am i doing wrong guys (and girls).

I would also like to know if taking big jumps permanently damages your knees and is unavoidable.

Okay I know I'm about to be yelled at by a k-swiss fanatic but here me out.
The grip is pretty decent, and Ive had them for a while and they are VERY durable
but you know those perfect pretty little holes that go through the heel?  Yes the circular ones.
Well mine are not circles
They are VERY oblong and all the rubber down the heel all the way to the toe has VERY noticeable compression lines.
I need more cushion so any help?

Offline Zachary Cohn

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 03:43:38 PM »
STOP RIGHT NOW.

RIGHT NOW.

RIGHT.

NOW.

Quote
First my farthest drop was 26 ft.

First, I question if that distance is accurate. 26 feet is a lot of feet.
Second, WHY WOULD YOU EVER WANT TO DO THAT!? You likely have already done long term damage to yourself and you need to stop now.

Quote
I would also like to know if taking big jumps permanently damages your knees and is unavoidable.

Yes. Yes it will.

The solution to this is to stop doing big drops. I don't like taking drops larger than my own height (5ft 7). A lot of people use this rule.

Offline Deshy

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2008, 03:48:35 PM »
okay...
i wasnt clear enough lol
and yes im sure
I dont do anything over 18 to 20 now so stop freaking out lol
Shoes?
treatment?
shoulders
hands

see lots of stuff missed

(oh and one more thing lol you wanted to know why i would want to.
If youve ever done it you know that after about 12 feet time stands still you can hear the wind in your ears and just seeing and feeling all that is amazing to me)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 03:51:07 PM by Deshy »

Offline Spark710

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2008, 03:52:35 PM »
Okay, you're probably going to get a lot of replies like Zach's.  Just so you know, he's right: damage with high drops is unavoidable unless you build up slowly over years.

Some questions: How long have you been tracing?  Have you ever trained with someone really good?  Do you train on a regular basis?

Some answers: Shoes will mask the pain of drops, good technique will fix it.  If you're tearing up your back when you role, you're doing something wrong (try practicing on smaller drops, it might be a momentum thing).

Please train safely.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 03:58:58 PM by Spark710 »
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Offline Zachary Cohn

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2008, 03:55:53 PM »
I dont do anything over 18 to 20 now so stop freaking out lol

Read my post. 6 feet. Versus 18. People have done the physics, it's over a FIVE THOUSAND pounds of force.

Quote
If youve ever done it you know that after about 12 feet time stands still you can hear the wind in your ears and just seeing and feeling all that is amazing to me)

Do you enjoy the sound of a cane hitting the ground? Because that's all you're going to hear in about 5 years.

Offline Deshy

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2008, 04:01:47 PM »
zach i know you are trying to be helpful but your tone is rather harsh so please calm down.
okay aything over 6 ft is dangerous and since yall are the experts i will stick to it (most of the time)
the okay what aboutt the shoes and glove situation.
I hear 5.10 has really good shoes.
Are they better than my ariakes

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2008, 04:04:03 PM »
Hey guys I'm new to the boards so please show mercy.

I'll be kind enough to show a little bit...

Quote
I'm not a professional but I'm the best around my area (which is very small)
I Have a fascination with big jumps (excess of 12 ft.) I know im not as bad ass as some of you but ive had alot of problems because of it.

None of us here place any significance on doing big drops. In fact, most of us believe it to be vain and utterly stupid. There is no prestige in being able to drop from such a height.

Quote
First my farthest drop was 26 ft.

I really don't have to continue more than this sentence right here. Usually there is a little whisper in the back of your head when you overlook a 10 ft drop that says "Hey, I probably shouldn't do this" (even if I could). How loud that voice is from 26 ft....well...I'd listen to it and the next quote is why:

Quote
Upon landing i bruised the balls of both feet and tore up my hands pretty bad (I was on concrete)
I know I know i'm supposed to roll out but that lead to another injury i will discuss here.

How can you possibly justify anything that is so damaging to your body!? This is absolutely dangerous and reckless.

Quote
So the solution i think to the feet was better shoes (more shock absorption) Any suggestions for shoes ( i have Ariakes but the shock absorption is garbage) and for how to treat bruised feet for faster healing. (please dont tell me to stay off my feet im not that dumb lol but i work so thats not an option)
The hands? Should i wear gloves or is there a secret i dont know.

You're dropping from 26 feet and you think 3/4th of an inch of plastic, rubber, and foam is going to solve that?! You need to think a little more about what you're doing to yourself.

Quote
2nd jump
this one was about a 17ft drop from a monkey vault. I landed and rolled out just like I'm supposed to.
Problem is, the concrete shredded my back and shoulder bad enough that people could notice i was bleeding from quite the distance which got alot of unwanted attention from campus security ( i was at a college) every time i roll on a hard surface i rip my skin all to hell.
what the hell am i doing wrong guys (and girls).

After a certain point, every single jump you take WILL BE DAMAGING TO YOUR BODY! I don't care if it's shattered joints, torn ligaments, broken bones, ripped up skin, or if you somehow manage to come out of it unscathed. It is NOT healthy.  

Quote
I would also like to know if taking big jumps permanently damages your knees and is unavoidable.

Easy answer: Yes. Simple solution: Stop.

Quote
Okay I know I'm about to be yelled at by a k-swiss fanatic but here me out.
The grip is pretty decent, and Ive had them for a while and they are VERY durable
but you know those perfect pretty little holes that go through the heel?  Yes the circular ones.
Well mine are not circles
They are VERY oblong and all the rubber down the heel all the way to the toe has VERY noticeable compression lines.
I need more cushion so any help?


You post something like this, and then you're worried about us bashing you for a brand name?! This is a prime example of how little you know of parkour. In most cases, we make suggestions to people to stop what they are doing and re-evaluate how they train. With you, I'm going to be as stern as possible:

This is reckless, obnoxious, immature, and most of all, D A N G E R O U S! I feel ashamed there was no one or nothing out there that could have prevented you from doing these things and calling it parkour, because it is not. I sincerely hope you don't feel attacked by mine or others' posts and take heed to what we are telling you. There are a lot of very experienced traceurs on here that will tell you the same thing.

Train for life. Respect your body. Don't damage yourself unnecessarily.

Offline Deshy

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2008, 04:18:34 PM »
to answer you question yes i feel attacked lol
ive never been bashed so hard for doing something that i enjoy.
honestly i didnt ask for your opinion on what i do i asked for advice on impacts
i know your "looking out for me" but its like alot of sports
things will get damaged.
im aware now that big jumps arent safe
i will only do them in severe moderation
i think 10 ft isnt that bad
and fine i will enjoy my cane.
so please stop bashing and suggest some useful things besides what you dont want me doing.
Im asking about shoes and gloves at this point.
thats all i want
nothing more nothing less
thank you

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2008, 04:53:58 PM »
to answer you question yes i feel attacked lol

I'm sorry you feel that way. Hopefully you will understand that we say what we say because we really don't want to see you get hurt.

Quote
ive never been bashed so hard for doing something that i enjoy.

Let's say I enjoy killing people. Should I feel offended if I get arrested? Let's say I enjoy cutting my wrists? Should I be offended when someone takes me away to an asylum?

Quote
honestly i didnt ask for your opinion on what i do i asked for advice on impacts


I gave you my advice on impact. It's harmful and damaging and the solution to avoiding further injury is to not take large drops...not switching shoes.

Quote
i know your "looking out for me" but its like alot of sports
things will get damaged.

A football player doesn't sprain his own knee. A Soccer player doesn't purposefully roll his/her ankle. This is not the same as what you are doing to your body.

Quote
im aware now that big jumps arent safe
i will only do them in severe moderation
i think 10 ft isnt that bad

You will, but that's all I can say. Your body. Your choice. I gave you the warning.


Quote
so please stop bashing and suggest some useful things besides what you dont want me doing.

From my perspective, I'm not bashing; I'm saving. You're on a parkour forum seeking advice on depth drops. As variable as the definition of parkour can be, I'm sure an incredible majority will agree that dropping from 26 feet "just 'cuz" is not parkour. At this point, I really hope you didn't tell the Safety Officer you were doing parkour. Zac and I have been fighting for almost a year to have our university have an official parkour club; we were denied because of liability issues such as yourself.


Quote
Im asking about shoes and gloves at this point.
thats all i want

Your shoes are perfectly capable of assisting you in performing everything within the realms of parkour. Sadly, this does NOT include 26 foot drops.

Gloves should never be needed because you should never exert such stresses from safe and proper parkour training and conditioning. The stresses you are placing on your hands is damaging.


Quote
nothing more nothing less
thank you

I care too much to agree to this. There are two clear paths you can take when you walk away from this thread:

You can take it how you're taking it right now. Feel bashed upon and attacked and leave as a victim. I hope this path comes off rather obviously as negative.

Or

You can take this thread with an open mind and realize we genuinely care about what you are doing to yourself. You can step back and re-assess your goals in your head, stay on the site a little longer before going out again, learn a little bit about the discipline you seem to enjoy, and become a fully integrated member of the community. The community is here to help each other. This is a very mature and positive viewpoint.


It's your choice which path you take. You have that control. Whatever choice you decide to make...no regrets and no hard feelings.

Offline PKAB

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 05:02:18 PM »
okay heres the thing.... WAY TO FAR OF A DROP

see its not that ariakes arent shocks absorbant its just that how much do you think they will absorb froma 26 foot drop
take it easy practice youre rolls so you dont bleed calous youre hands for future drops (hopefully not huge purposeful drops) and yes you can (or already have :-\ permnently damaged youreself

listen to Zachery Cohn and take it easy man injuries are NOT fun

maybe do that youre own height drop rule thing that sound great and really practice those landing



 ;D ;D ;Dgood luck ;D ;D ;D

KJS
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Offline Deshy

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 05:04:40 PM »
Thank you. you had the most civilized post of all so far.
I was at the point that on the next negative post i waas just gonna quit this place.
let me ask though
you said 10 ft was questionable
so lets say i took a one 10 ft'r a month would i still be endagering myself.
shoes?
gloves?

Offline Lonnie Tisdale

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 05:07:53 PM »
I realize you feel attacked Deshi but you have to understand that what you are talking about is far off the mark from what this website is for and what our discipline is about. These people are legitimately concerned for your well-being. If you want adrenaline and big drops take up diving, bungee jumping or skydiving. Parkour is not for you.

We strive to make ourselves stronger through movement and everything we do should be adding to our strength over time, not detracting from it. Most beginners fail to realize that we learn to roll out of a drop as a precautionary measure, not as progressive training tool. Even drops of as little as 5 feet can cause long term damage over time. Seriously, why would we make this up?

I suggest you take the criticism and re-evaluate your training and your goals. We are not trying to push you away, but we are trying to scare you straight. Another way to gauge the force of your drop is if your heels touch the ground. You should be landing on the balls of your feet but if you have too much force, you will fall back on your heels, taking excess momentum through the ankles, shins and knees.

EDIT: To answer your question about shoes... More padding is only going to hide excessive force, not eliminate it. If you cant do a drop barefoot, you shouldn't be doing it with crazy padded shoes. The skin on your hands will get tougher overtime. No need for gloves.
"Let the fear of danger be a spur to prevent it; he that fears not, gives advantage to the danger."

Offline PKAB

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 05:15:56 PM »
Thank you. you had the most civilized post of all so far.
I was at the point that on the next negative post i waas just gonna quit this place.
let me ask though
you said 10 ft was questionable
so lets say i took a one 10 ft'r a month would i still be endagering myself.
shoes?
gloves?
I would ask someone more experienced about the height you want to do why not do a height you can do all month as much as you want ;D but i think Ariakes are GREAT shoes and you should be proud to wear them ;D about the gloves lose em Calouses are important and you should build them up

Sorry you felt attacked earlier but they did make some good points

Good luck
KJS
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Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 05:25:55 PM »
Deshy, to be honest I've dealt with a lot of confused people. You're not unique in that sense so take solace in the fact that you are not the first person to do this.

Drops are a very touchy subject and sometimes it takes a lot of convincing to help someone understand why depth drops are damaging. A vault over a picnic table is not a situation where we need to worry about the plyometrics of parkour because unless you're landing on your heel, you will be able to properly mitigate the forces being placed on your body. The forces are mitigated enough that your muscles can easily absorb the force and saves your precious joints, ligaments, and bones from severe damage. Take note: broken bones may heal properly, but why risk it? Joints and ligaments do not. You mess up your knees...you're done. Simple. Had a good run. Mess up a ligament, and all chances are against you ever regaining the same support it once used to give.

Once you start adding vertical height, amplified by the force of gravity, after a certain point, the drops will ALWAYS be damaging to your body; slowly grinding away at those structures that are so precious that do not heal. Once you take off, you are constantly accelerating towards the ground (unless of course you drop from a point that gets you terminal velocity but I doubt we'll ever get someone to decide it reasonable to drop from such a height). The only real measurement you can have as to what is safe is your expertise with proper landing technique and your 1RM in the squat. I have yet to see a traceur squat 1000lbs so I'll go as far to say that I feel most people I see drop from over 10 feet have no place doing it. Granted, the forces placed even with proper technique, will almost assuredly greatly increase over 1,000lbs.

The advice I give others like you is rather simple: there is a lot to parkour. Why not step back for a while and take some time to work on your vaults? Your precisions? Your balancing, conditioning, climbing, etc.? As you become more adept and more in tune with your body (as well as becoming more involved in parkour) you'll start to understand that by the time you are physically ready to take a 10ft drop, chances are, you won't. You know you can do it and by that time, that feeling will suffice.

As I said before, train for life and respect your body. There are many out there that would kill to have the options available to them that you have.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 05:27:57 PM by Charles Moreland »

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2008, 09:43:43 AM »
If you are going to take huge drops and can't be dissuaded:

DO NOT CALL IT PARKOUR OR FREERUNNING. Do not misrepresent what we do with what you're doing.

As Lonnie said.. if you want the adrenaline rush go do skydiving, bungee jumping or something along those lines. Something you can actually CONTINUE to do for decades to come instead of blowing out your body in a couple years.
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Offline pinkpawn

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2008, 09:23:13 AM »
Firstly, I will post again later when I have more time to write what I really want to say.
Second, here is some things about your post atm:

Quote
I have a fascination with big jumps (excess of 12 ft.) I know im not as bad ass as some of you but ive had alot of problems because of it.
Had alot of problems? Thats because your body is telling you its no good for you.. .. listen to it.

Quote
So the solution i think to the feet was better shoes (more shock absorption)
Really the shock absorption in shoes is meant for running, no more. Not even strapping something like a high jump mat to your feet will really help you from that height.

Quote
..and for how to treat bruised feet for faster healing. (please dont tell me to stay off my feet im not that dumb lol but i work so thats not an option
Umm stay off your feet? You may say that is not what you want to hear, but my next post will be about what I did to myself, and TRUST ME staying off your feet is the best thing you can do.

Quote
The hands? Should i wear gloves or is there a secret i dont know.
My hands have been toughened up over time by doing my parkour exercises. You could try gloves, or go with the prevention is better than cure method.

Quote
Problem is, the concrete shredded my back and shoulder bad enough that people could notice i was bleeding from quite the distance which got alot of unwanted attention from campus security ( i was at a college) every time i roll on a hard surface i rip my skin all to hell.
what the hell am i doing wrong guys (and girls).
Yea something really wrong here, maybe your not planting onto your hands enough or your kind of flipping not rolling. By not planting or if you are 'flipping' across the ground you are probably making your back slide over the concrete instead of rolling.

Quote
I would also like to know if taking big jumps permanently damages your knees and is unavoidable.
Yep every jump you do.. even jumps at 3 foot high. Hell running bare foot on concrete is bad for you, that is what shoes are made to absorb.

Quote
They are VERY oblong and all the rubber down the heel all the way to the toe has VERY noticeable compression lines.
I need more cushion so any help?
More cushioning isn't the answer. The answer is that no cushioning in any shoe is made to withstand that kind of force. You might aswell jump bare foot from that height.

Like I said once I have the time I will make another post here. Not sure on how to word what I want to say yet, and its 2:30am...
Just quickly watch this video and check out the strain on the body at this 'small' height Time Warp Free Running
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 09:31:22 AM by John [pinkpawn] Bingley »
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Offline Deshy

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2008, 05:32:28 PM »
-John.....
HOLY SHIT!
I just watched that video
I had no idea that i  was doing that much damage to myself.
The jump he took at the end is like an everyday thing for me and when they slowed it down i saw how devastating it was to his body.
NO MORE big jumps for me unless im running for my life.
See I've had to teach myself everything i know and most is because of what i see in training videos online.
I now have a feeling some of it is camera angles.
-The shoulder roll problem. = Fixed it. It was the sheer height of the jump. Even The guy in the video hurt himself. (ironically in the exact same spot as where i always get skinned and bruised up)
Now i have my last questions that need answering.
Okay first up is my hands. I have caluses i can usually hold a lighter to but the problem for tearing is the worst when im doing anything with bars.
I end up ripping the actual callus off. right at the top of my palm just before the fingers start.

Shoes- I will out right ask
whats the benefit of ariakes vs. 5.10's shoes
pros and cons maybe?
Ive been looking at both and i really need a new pair of shoes

Offline Chris Salvato

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Offline Spark710

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2008, 06:29:52 PM »
-John.....
HOLY SHIT!
I just watched that video
I had no idea that i  was doing that much damage to myself.
The jump he took at the end is like an everyday thing for me and when they slowed it down i saw how devastating it was to his body.
NO MORE big jumps for me unless im running for my life.
I tried to applaud you more than once, but the website disagreed, so one applaud and three smiley faces is the best I can do.
 :) :D ;D

whats the benefit of ariakes vs. 5.10's shoes
If you look in Consumer Whores, you'll find lots and lots of threads about this.
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Offline pinkpawn

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Re: Big Jumps and the injuries ive suffered and hopefully some solutions
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2008, 11:50:47 PM »
Okay so I am back again, with my follow up post as promised. It is something I don't really like to talk about, but I am going to post it anyway, and I am sure any kind of reputation I may have been building on this website will be shot down in flames and then some. I deserve -10,000 karma I assure you. This post is a bit of a novel, but I think it is crucial to be that way. So here it is:

One day a few months after starting 'parkour' I decided that doing a big jump was the thing for me. After finishing work I found an object high enough (one around 6 meters or 20 feet), I climbed it and jumped off. Needless to say, I failed miserably. Other than the obvious, I made a bad mistake in calculating the horizontal distance that I would travel in the air. Therefore as I came close to landing it became apparent that I was going to be landing right next to an object that I could no way steer myself around. Upon landing there was no way I could go forward so my instinct told my body to lean back from this incoming object. Unfortunately this had further consequences with me landing flat footed, maybe even more on my heels. The sound of my feet hitting the concrete sounded like a sledge hammer. I managed to walk around and talk to my co-workers a little before driving home. That night my feet were not too sore, just a slight dull pain in them...

... the next day however the situation was alot worse. When I woke up in the morning the pain in my feet was still there, and probably worse than the night before. I lay in bed for an hour or so on my laptop then decided to get up. I swung my legs out of bed and placed my feet on the floor. They were a little tender but looked okay. I shifted my weight to them to get out of bed, stood up and then it happened. The pain in my feet was so agonising I dropped to the floor. I tried several times to stand on my feet but all I could do was drop straight to my hands and knees. I had tears running down my face because of the pain. Now I used to be a serious track and field athlete (which makes me just think wtf would I do what I did?) and have had to deal with the pain barrier and things like that before. Normally if you are sore you can still manage to do things to some degree. The pain was so intense, it was crippling pain. I couldn't walk, I couldn't even stand; I had never felt anything like it before.

I was taken to the hospital and had someone look at my feet. The whole underside from my heel to the ball of my foot was black on both feet; my arches were also somewhat flatter than normal due to swelling. The day progressed with examinations, xrays, scans of other kinds, alot of pain and tears. The doctors told me that amazingly no bones were broken or fractured (legs and hip included), but I had mostly damaged all the soft tissue on the underside of my foot and most certainly bruised the bone.

For several days at home I was largely dependent on someone else, having to resort to crawling to get around anywhere. Things like getting drink or food took the aid of someone else as I couldn't carry something in my hands and crawl at the same time. It took 5 days before I could even stand on my feet, and then I could only hobble a room or two before the pain was so intense I had to give up and crawl. Six weeks after my jump I returned to work for 3 hour shifts as this was all I could manage to stand for. At about 8 weeks I could function in a normal (normal as in not doing sports normal) way again.

My feet seemed to have healed up okay, and I can now exercise and do everything I could once do; although I know it will have repercussions later on in life. The damage done can never be totally undone...
These days I am still practicing parkour, but it is not the 'parkour' I started out with; it is now actually parkour. The adrenaline rush I got from jumping that height I now get every time I practice parkour. I go for xrays on my feet, legs and hips every 3 months now to check that the damage sustained has not left me vulnerable to stress fractures (and I will probably do so for another couple of years). I am so ashamed and embarrased to have shared my stupidity and naivety (..I am 25 after all) with the rest of the parkour community, but I hope it can stop just one person doing something the way I did. While practicing parkour with other people, or on the forums I always advocate safety first; although I wish the journey I took to get there had been a different one.

So to the OP (or anyone else reading), listen to the regular people on these forums; they are good people and will keep your best interests in mind. You may feel intimidated, frustrated or feel like you are being attacked; but they really are here to try to help you, so keep that in mind. If you really want to do parkour, realise that safety needs to be the first thing on your mind to ensure the longevity of the discpline of parkour, the longevity of yourself, other people you may train with and in general the passers by you meet when practicing parkour.

I am sure this post will get a few not too good replies, and believe me I know I deserve it. There is nothing I can say in my defence. The only thing I can do is what I have done here, and try to promote the practicing of parkour in the safest of ways possible.

edit:
A good video to see what happens to your legs on impact:Time Warp + Free Running
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 12:02:50 AM by John [pinkpawn] Bingley »
The edge..                                                           ..its the starting point, not the limit!