Author Topic: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training  (Read 12448 times)

Offline David Jones

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« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2010, 05:02:05 PM »
Spencer is right on the money.

Offline Tom Coppola

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2010, 05:21:38 PM »
Good people, yes. "Good" traceurs? Debatable. My big problem is that the way PKGen trains imo hugely stifles progression. Dan, Forrest, and all them having been training almost twice as long as Phil Doyle...enough said.

P.S. Blane gets my respect, his movement is absolutely ridiculous but he was a beast before he joined PKGen.

You can't reliably compare Phil Doyle and Dan/Forrest as athletes in parkour.  Phil began parkour-specific training at a very young age, allowing his body to physiologically adapt much more quickly to parkour-type movement.  Whereas Dan and Forrest both began training at a relatively older age.  Even having a background in sport, the adaptations develop at a slower rate and result in lower performance.

Its like comparing a gymnast who starting training at age 8 with a gymnast who started at age 16.  Even if both were training for the same amount of time/volume/intensity, the one with an earlier onset of training will outperform the other every time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfGJ-vaW0Uw

When faced with the stress of a life-threatening engagement, we don't rise to the occasion, we descend to our level of training.

Offline David Jones

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« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2010, 05:37:53 PM »
Damian Walters started Gymnastics at 16... Lol. That's an exception though.

matcauthon12

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2010, 05:38:51 PM »
You can't reliably compare Phil Doyle and Dan/Forrest as athletes in parkour.  Phil began parkour-specific training at a very young age, allowing his body to physiologically adapt much more quickly to parkour-type movement.  Whereas Dan and Forrest both began training at a relatively older age.  Even having a background in sport, the adaptations develop at a slower rate and result in lower performance.

Its like comparing a gymnast who starting training at age 8 with a gymnast who started at age 16.  Even if both were training for the same amount of time/volume/intensity, the one with an earlier onset of training will outperform the other every time.


That's completely true, it's not a perfect analogy. What I was really trying to say was that if Dan/Forrest/rest of PKGen trained more like Phil and the other Cambridge boys their "technical skill level" would be higher than it is now imo.

Offline Tom Coppola

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« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2010, 06:26:36 PM »
Damian Walters started Gymnastics at 16... Lol. That's an exception though.

Where did you hear that?  According to this site, he started specifically training tumbling in 1989 (age 7).  Also, his wiki says he first tried to learn how to front flip at age 4.  That's a pretty early start in sport and probably one reason why he is at the level he is today.  The other major factor is probably the social environment he was raised in.  Considering his father owns a gymnastics facility and his sister is a coach.

That's completely true, it's not a perfect analogy. What I was really trying to say was that if Dan/Forrest/rest of PKGen trained more like Phil and the other Cambridge boys their "technical skill level" would be higher than it is now imo.

Yea, I've been fairly skeptical of PKGen's training methods.  I think they spend perhaps too much time on mentally challenging, endurance-style conditioning (like the Yamakasi) where pushing yourself to the limit is actually detrimental to physical performance.  Not quite enough time spent optimally developing strength or skill training.

That being said, I also don't think Phil or the other Cambridge guys optimally train either.  I can only imagine the level they would reach if they intelligently programmed their training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfGJ-vaW0Uw

When faced with the stress of a life-threatening engagement, we don't rise to the occasion, we descend to our level of training.

Offline Shae Perkins

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2010, 06:41:09 PM »
What is the optimal way to train in your opinion Tom? Not being critical, just curious. And what do you know about how the Cambridge guys train? I've always been interested in how they go about it.
This post was based off of my personal gatherings. Enjoy:)

Offline Tom Coppola

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2010, 07:33:10 PM »
What is the optimal way to train in your opinion Tom? Not being critical, just curious. And what do you know about how the Cambridge guys train? I've always been interested in how they go about it.

Well, considering parkour (and parkour coaching) is so young, I don't think there can definitively be an "optimal" training protocol, yet.  However, I think Rafe has taken a pretty good stab at it in his talk on Parkour Programming:  http://vimeo.com/15670755

Its going to take some time and practice experimenting with different training/coaching methods, but in the future we will see some really incredible athletes, surpassing the level of the practitioners currently at the top.  Look at the increase in skill level that we've seen in the past few years.  These gains have been primarily the result of two things: the internet and regional communities.  Better information is being disseminated to people who are just starting out and seasoned practitioners alike.  Imagine if these athletes were put on a training program similar to professional/olympic athletics, but specific to parkour...

I don't know exactly how the Cambridge guys train, but I know Phil, for example, doesn't weight train (not that he should, but he would definitely benefit from it). 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfGJ-vaW0Uw

When faced with the stress of a life-threatening engagement, we don't rise to the occasion, we descend to our level of training.

Offline Micah.

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2010, 05:05:39 AM »
And I thought I was always under-training when I went out and trained for 2 hours. Hmm, seems I've been hitting the number on the spot.

:) Makes me feel more confident now in my training.

Offline Adam McC

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2010, 06:21:18 AM »
If you guys want some information on how the Cambridge guys train, and the perspective of conditioning from those fellows, versus Parkour Generations, send a message to Duncan, (TK17). He is a level 2 PkGen instructor, but has spent a lot of time traveling and training with the Cambridge guys. I was fortunate enough to spend a lot of time talkin to Duncan about these issues, but I won't paraphrase him, since its his knowledge and not mine. If you want to get to the source of this, talk to him. He knows. It'd serve better than a lot of speculating and guessing.

As for Dan being a pretentious douche, be careful how quick your judgements are. I'm been lucky enough to spend some time learning from Dan, and I can tell you he is a very knowledgeable and kind man. He does know what he's talking about. He's been around longer than any of us. So, have your opinion, that's awesome. Just be cautious of judgements! :)

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matcauthon12

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2010, 06:41:18 AM »
Well, considering parkour (and parkour coaching) is so young, I don't think there can definitively be an "optimal" training protocol, yet.  However, I think Rafe has taken a pretty good stab at it in his talk on Parkour Programming:  http://vimeo.com/15670755

Its going to take some time and practice experimenting with different training/coaching methods, but in the future we will see some really incredible athletes, surpassing the level of the practitioners currently at the top.  Look at the increase in skill level that we've seen in the past few years.  These gains have been primarily the result of two things: the internet and regional communities.  Better information is being disseminated to people who are just starting out and seasoned practitioners alike.  Imagine if these athletes were put on a training program similar to professional/olympic athletics, but specific to parkour...

I don't know exactly how the Cambridge guys train, but I know Phil, for example, doesn't weight train (not that he should, but he would definitely benefit from it). 
That's true as well. I think we Americans might be able to strike a balance between the French/traditional British way of (maybe) over-conditioning and the new wave UK way of (again, maybe) doing a bit too much technical training. That having been said, I'd still much rather train with Phil/Kie/Toby/Luke, etc. haha

Offline daggerx222

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2010, 09:33:55 AM »
This is how i live. I go out and practice parkour all the time, im practicing when im watching videos, getting out of my chair, washing dishes off, EVERYTHING.

Parkour is movement. I try not to live with standards of better, but i think that i and many other people have and ae pushing much past limits that PKGen is.

Yes working out makes you strong, but doing pushups and stuff will never give you the confidence to do a 14 ft running precision. That comes from the power of your mind, and the choices it makes, not from the muscles you have or any of that.

I don't care how anyone trains because they aren't me, but i like to share my opinion and i hate seeing people tell me what is and what isn't training.
The definition of Training is -Activity leading to skilled behavior. So that means if you think about moving, your leading to more skilled movement.
If you vacuum a room, your training that movement. If you do an 8 foot kong-precision once than you are still training. Even if you do a frontflip and under rotate you are leading to more skilled behavior and learning how to land on your feet the next time.

Last question is, What counts as skilled behavior? Being some robot that does work-outs all day?
Thats not an image i want to convey with parkour. I want parkour to be about freedom, jumping about and playing like a kid, but also doing something that becomes so natural yet others look at as an impossible level achieved in an artform.
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Offline daggerx222

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2010, 12:16:46 AM »
PKGEN is lame for this.
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Offline Andy Keller

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2010, 08:56:52 AM »
PKGEN is lame for this.

Good contribution to discussion. And sweet double post. :P

Are you trolling?
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Offline DaveS

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2010, 10:58:19 AM »
I think we Americans might be able to strike a balance between the French/traditional British way of (maybe) over-conditioning and the new wave UK way of (again, maybe) doing a bit too much technical training.
Just thought I should offer you my take on the differing methods. It might be useful to hear a perspective from within the UK. :)

As a whole the UK has always been focused on the technical aspect of Parkour, much like the rest of the world. We're geographically closer to Lisses, but Parkour still spread to the UK via short videos and that meant that the idea of Parkour being a list of movements to learn is as popular in the UK as it is in the rest of the world. If you look at very early UK videos (2002/3/4) there's a huge technical range, and the same thing can be seen on the thousands of videos posted by current beginners. There's more focus on learning "180 catleaps" than there is on getting stronger legs. Blane was one of a very small number of people to start conditioning regularly early on in his training.

The Lisses scene that I saw pre-Parkour-tourism had an emphasis on hard physical training but not on the military style 'beastings' commonly used by PKGen and Majestic Force. They focused on physical challenges but they preferred to do it through movement than through essentially stationary exercises like squats and push-ups. Though not as technically orientated as the UK scene at that time was, they had a good enough physical grounding in movement to adapt well to any specific technique when needed.

The over emphasis on physical conditioning has entered all parts of the Parkour community relatively recently, partially through Majestic Force (who passed it on to PKGen), and partially from practitioners from other activities applying their existing methods to Parkour. This is the new wave, not the technical training which has produced many of the famous UK and international names of the community.

Personally, I think that both the overly technical approach and the overly physical approach are later developments of the original activity, which was developing through challenging movement itself. I say this because this is what I saw in Lisses, it's what I've heard from David, from Sebastien and the other non-modern-Yamakasi experienced practitioners, from the developmental background to Parkour, and what I've learned on my own about the best way to train. I doubt we'll ever know for sure about the history aspect, but I think you're right that the best way to train lies somewhere in between the two popular methods we see in most places today.
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Offline daggerx222

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2010, 12:37:37 PM »
Good contribution to discussion. And sweet double post. :P

Are you trolling?

Call it what you want. I decided to sum up my last post because for some wouldnt realize my stance on the situation.
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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2010, 03:38:54 PM »
They focused on physical challenges but they preferred to do it through movement than through essentially stationary exercises like squats and push-ups.
IMO best way to condition. In all honesty, my main problem with PKGen wasn't how much they emphasized conditioning but rather how they emphasized the conditioning itself. Climbing missions and dynos will get your arms just as strong as pushup circles :P.
Thanks for clarifying a bit what i was trying to get across.

Offline Rafe

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2010, 04:26:10 PM »
IMO best way to condition. In all honesty, my main problem with PKGen wasn't how much they emphasized conditioning but rather how they emphasized the conditioning itself. Climbing missions and dynos will get your arms just as strong as pushup circles :P.
Thanks for clarifying a bit what i was trying to get across.


Neither of these is optimal for getting your arms strong. Climbing missions and push up circles will develop primarily stamina not strength dynos are a power excercise and won't significantly develop max strength except in beginners who will suffer tremendous joint wear and tear doing dyno's were they could more effectively develop strength doing weighted pull ups without the joint wear and tear.

Stamina, Endurance, Speed, Agility - Co-ordination, Balance, Accuracy, and power are best developed through parkour based methods. Max strength and flexibility need to be developed through supplementary training for optimal effectiveness and safety.
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Offline David Jones

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« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2010, 08:08:14 PM »
There definitely is such a more effective way to increase performance in terms of power and strength rather than how PKG goes about it, just look at how other top athletes in different sports go about increasing performance levels (simply through compound lifts and the sort). The thing I notice is that a lot of PKG's primary goal is definitely oriented around stamina and endurance, rather than strength gains. This is, of course, after most of them having trained many years so I'm sure their goals have changed somewhat...

Offline daggerx222

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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2010, 10:00:03 PM »
I think id much rather be a well toned swift athlete than some stupid ass juice head PARKOURER that can do some good push ups and pull ups and not some far strides, cats, kong precisions, front 540's, and double fulls like a true practitioner of movement that keeps the essence of a child and not one of a dude on jersey shore.

Think about that for a minute.
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Re: DAN from Parkour Generations, Words About "Actual" Training
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2010, 10:19:36 PM »
...i dont even know how to respond to this. It seems that you are a little misguided and have seriously misinterpreted the purpose of strength training. But, all ill point to is gymnasts. Not scrawny, definitely not juice heads. Lean, some larger than others, agile, and powerful. Very similar to what many traceurs including myself pursue. And you get there through the combination both strength and technical/skill training.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 10:21:27 PM by Caleb M. Iuliano »