Author Topic: Vitamin Water!  (Read 9141 times)

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 12:03:33 PM »
Hmmm..

vitamin water as a drink to consume DURING a bout of exercise is quite different than drinking a vitamin water as a casual beverage.  Even then, I would argue that a gatorade dilution is better than vitamin water, like you use.

Secondly, you never answered my question -- did you ever try increasing fat consumption as opposed to increasing carb consumption?  That might have been a worthwhile investment of time.  A lot of people are scare of fat which hinders them from experimenting with it...if you haven't experimented with it yet I suggest that you do :)

If it were MY body, I would try to increase my fat significantly during the day and switch to water just to note the effects.  Then try increased fat with the gatorade dilution only during workouts.  Keep track of my BF%, perception of fatigue and performance at that point.  But thats just how I approach these things.

My reasoning is that, while you may be using mostly sugars for a decent part of your workout, there is still a very significant portion (probably well over 60%) of the workout that is aerobic, using mostly fats.  Glycogen reserves from the liver, if you eat enough carbs nightly (not implying overloading here, just that you aren't depriving yourself of carb) then your liver should still safely carry 2000-2500 calories of glyogen for use - so the lower carb diet might actually pay off in the end, increasing longevity and increasing insulin sensitivity/lowering insulin resistance. 

Thats my 2¢ solely based on the fact that you never tried to eat significantly more fats than carbs.  Let me know what you think :)

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2008, 03:45:30 PM »
Hmmm..

vitamin water as a drink to consume DURING a bout of exercise is quite different than drinking a vitamin water as a casual beverage.  Even then, I would argue that a gatorade dilution is better than vitamin water, like you use.

Secondly, you never answered my question -- did you ever try increasing fat consumption as opposed to increasing carb consumption?  That might have been a worthwhile investment of time.  A lot of people are scare of fat which hinders them from experimenting with it...if you haven't experimented with it yet I suggest that you do :)

If it were MY body, I would try to increase my fat significantly during the day and switch to water just to note the effects.  Then try increased fat with the gatorade dilution only during workouts.  Keep track of my BF%, perception of fatigue and performance at that point.  But thats just how I approach these things.

My reasoning is that, while you may be using mostly sugars for a decent part of your workout, there is still a very significant portion (probably well over 60%) of the workout that is aerobic, using mostly fats.  Glycogen reserves from the liver, if you eat enough carbs nightly (not implying overloading here, just that you aren't depriving yourself of carb) then your liver should still safely carry 2000-2500 calories of glyogen for use - so the lower carb diet might actually pay off in the end, increasing longevity and increasing insulin sensitivity/lowering insulin resistance. 

Thats my 2¢ solely based on the fact that you never tried to eat significantly more fats than carbs.  Let me know what you think :)

You're barking up the wrong tree. The thing with diet changes is that someone MUST be adapted to that diet first for it to work.

That's why throwing athletes who usually do 70% carbs into Zone ratios or greater fat ratios it's gonna take them probably about 2-3 weeks to produce and rid itself of fat and carbohydrate metabolism enzymes respectively. During this time you would probably feel sluggish, lacking in energy, etc. This is the problem with most of the diets test; they don't take into account lag periods and only test a diet for a couple weeks.... which doesn't tell us anything at all unless the macros are similar in nature to the previous diet (in which cause the diet probably is similar enough and won't tell us anything at all).

If he did up the fat, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't help him at all and he may actually feel worse. Now if, for example, he took the time and went Zone with extra fat blocks and felt significantly better and decided to stick with it... then maybe adding mass fat during a ride would be a good idea (well, more fat would be burned in energy regardless during a run because higher B-oxidation rates). Carbs are still absorbed faster regardless.. but fats do provide more energy.

This reminds me of something that occurs during the Tour de France where in the second or third day of hard riding it suddenly becomes easier as their bodies make the transition into much stronger B-oxidation for energy as opposed to carbs. Anyway.. yeah that's my take.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2008, 07:28:05 PM »
You're barking up the wrong tree.

i dunno why, but that made me laugh lol

I would agree with the adaptation principle, but i still recommend the experimentation, even if it is a longer duration "self experiment".

Quote
Now if, for example, he took the time and went Zone with extra fat blocks and felt significantly better and decided to stick with it... then maybe adding mass fat during a ride would be a good idea (well, more fat would be burned in energy regardless during a run because higher B-oxidation rates). Carbs are still absorbed faster regardless.. but fats do provide more energy.

That would still be my recommendation.  Change the diet and notice the effect -- this is just a more specific and direct instruction....and i never suggested fat DURING the ride -- i am pretty sure that no one would be comfortable eating nuts or shooting olive oil during a run would be deemed comfortable.

I am a proponent of higher carb ratios during activity, fyi :)

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2008, 02:58:17 PM »
or shooting olive oil during a run

This made me giggle. More so because I see someone actually marketing this now...

Offline bjkpersonal@aim.com

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2008, 04:48:17 PM »
vitamin water as a drink to consume DURING a bout of exercise is quite different than drinking a vitamin water as a casual beverage.  Even then, I would argue that a gatorade dilution is better than vitamin water, like you use.

          Is that just because you can get Gatorade in powdered form or because the ingredients in Gatorade are better than Vitamin Water?

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2008, 07:26:19 PM »
vitamin water as a drink to consume DURING a bout of exercise is quite different than drinking a vitamin water as a casual beverage.  Even then, I would argue that a gatorade dilution is better than vitamin water, like you use.

          Is that just because you can get Gatorade in powdered form or because the ingredients in Gatorade are better than Vitamin Water?

Both are, eh.

With powdered gatorade you can control portion better diluting it to a good amount to replace electrolytes instead of dehydrating like it generally does.
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Offline Kevin Davies

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2008, 04:46:41 AM »
Secondly, you never answered my question -- did you ever try increasing fat consumption as opposed to increasing carb consumption?  That might have been a worthwhile investment of time.  A lot of people are scare of fat which hinders them from experimenting with it...if you haven't experimented with it yet I suggest that you do :)

You caught me in my careful avoidance of your question  :P.  I haven't experimented with increased fat per se.  Though me diet used to have a lot more fat and I have actually tried reducing  the fat and felt much better for it.  But I should qualify that with the fact that a lot of that fat was also coming from things that were also highly sugary like cookies and candy bars and the like.  I think Steve is right though: to see if replacing carbs with fats was beneficial I would have to do a more long term experiment and commit to something like the Zone diet for a prolonged period of time to see if it was helpful.  In doing some quick research, I found one study were they had endurance athletes try the Zone diet for one week and found that it had a negative effect on their endurance.  The article itself concluded that the Zone diet must be bad for endurance athletes, but I think that was a bad conculsion, due to factors that Steve mentioned such as the time it takes the body to adapt to a new diet.  But what I think one could conclude from the study is that a short term experiments with diet will probably not be sufficient to find out the real effects of a diet change. Here is a link to the study: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0977.htm
As far as making a long term commitment to such a diet, I would have to research it more before I could do it.  I know that a lot of people here are big fans of it and I have read a lot of what people have to say about it here and so all of the enthusiasm for it has made me want to become more knowledgeable about it, I just haven't taken the time yet to gain sufficient knowledge for myself.

Offline bjkpersonal@aim.com

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2008, 07:18:31 PM »
Secondly, you never answered my question -- did you ever try increasing fat consumption as opposed to increasing carb consumption?  That might have been a worthwhile investment of time.  A lot of people are scare of fat which hinders them from experimenting with it...if you haven't experimented with it yet I suggest that you do :)

You caught me in my careful avoidance of your question  :P.  I haven't experimented with increased fat per se.  Though me diet used to have a lot more fat and I have actually tried reducing  the fat and felt much better for it.  But I should qualify that with the fact that a lot of that fat was also coming from things that were also highly sugary like cookies and candy bars and the like.  I think Steve is right though: to see if replacing carbs with fats was beneficial I would have to do a more long term experiment and commit to something like the Zone diet for a prolonged period of time to see if it was helpful.  In doing some quick research, I found one study were they had endurance athletes try the Zone diet for one week and found that it had a negative effect on their endurance.  The article itself concluded that the Zone diet must be bad for endurance athletes, but I think that was a bad conculsion, due to factors that Steve mentioned such as the time it takes the body to adapt to a new diet.  But what I think one could conclude from the study is that a short term experiments with diet will probably not be sufficient to find out the real effects of a diet change. Here is a link to the study: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0977.htm
As far as making a long term commitment to such a diet, I would have to research it more before I could do it.  I know that a lot of people here are big fans of it and I have read a lot of what people have to say about it here and so all of the enthusiasm for it has made me want to become more knowledgeable about it, I just haven't taken the time yet to gain sufficient knowledge for myself.

          At one point, I decided to try to get rid of most fats in my diet (stupid fad diet), but I ended up feeling alot better from it.  A few months later, I decided to try putting fats back in, and I felt 100 times better than before.  It ended up being that after I got off my need of fats in my diet, I had enough sense to eat healthier fats which made me feel much, much better than low amounts of fats.  I tried low-carb, felt pretty bad for a good month until I stopped.

          Random statement, just thought I'd throw that in there.

Offline G_Dogg

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2008, 01:10:52 PM »
not to sure if this has been thrown out yet but they have zero carb zero calorie poweraide now thats really good (taste wise) im not sure about the sugar content thou but i can get em at the corner store for $1.05.  ive never researched them thou so i dont know if there good for you or not but they seem better than anything else out there besides water

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2008, 02:02:37 PM »
not to sure if this has been thrown out yet but they have zero carb zero calorie poweraide now thats really good (taste wise) im not sure about the sugar content thou but i can get em at the corner store for $1.05.  ive never researched them thou so i dont know if there good for you or not but they seem better than anything else out there besides water

I don't know this product from a hole in the wall but I will put a significant amount of money down that its loaded with artificial sweeteners.

With that in mind, act based on how you feel on sweeteners.

Personally, im against them.  But that's just my opinion.

Offline G_Dogg

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2008, 04:06:00 PM »
true that its got some bad artificial flavoring that should be avioded but if u arnt worried bout that no cals or carbs is a better alternative to other stuff but then again theres always water

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2008, 06:08:51 PM »
true that its got some bad artificial flavoring that should be avioded but if u arnt worried bout that no cals or carbs is a better alternative to other stuff but then again theres always water

Not necessarily.  Sometimes the lack of calories makes you more hungry, resulting in you consuming more food that DOES contain calories, according to several psychological AND physiological studies...

If the goal is weight loss, it may be counterproductive.

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2008, 05:33:25 AM »
You see not too many people realize that sugaR is actually good for you, not too much sugar mind you but just the right amount. Many doctors encourage things such as a piece of chocolate a day, or soft drinks once in a while. The old age myth that sugar is an imflamitory towards the muscles is just false. I have an aunt who specialize in diets and fiber for people. So in the end sugar is not as bad as people say.

Offline Kevin Davies

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2008, 06:00:07 AM »
You see not too many people realize that sugaR is actually good for you, not too much sugar mind you but just the right amount. Many doctors encourage things such as a piece of chocolate a day, or soft drinks once in a while. The old age myth that sugar is an imflamitory towards the muscles is just false. I have an aunt who specialize in diets and fiber for people. So in the end sugar is not as bad as people say.
You are a brave man to make such a statement on this forum.  I would pull out your research tools now, because you had better be prepared to defend it from the onslaught of people who disagree with you  ;D

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2008, 07:15:36 AM »
You are a brave man to make such a statement on this forum.  I would pull out your research tools now, because you had better be prepared to defend it from the onslaught of people who disagree with you  ;D

HA!  How true it is!

You see not too many people realize that sugaR is actually good for you, not too much sugar mind you but just the right amount. Many doctors encourage things such as a piece of chocolate a day, or soft drinks once in a while. The old age myth that sugar is an imflamitory towards the muscles is just false. I have an aunt who specialize in diets and fiber for people. So in the end sugar is not as bad as people say.

Carbohydrates, that is, sugars in all forms, are good for you.  In fact, you need them.  If you don't take in sugars, you will die.

Doctors who encourage chocolate usually recommend chocolate that is dark and high in cocoa.  This is because of the anti-oxidants found in cocoa.  Chocolates containing highly processed sugars, like those in Hershey's Syrup, however, are not as beneficial as the concentration of cocoa is much less (thus fewer antioxidants).

Soft Drinks being recommended by a doctor is ridiculous.  That's like a doctor recommending a big mac with cheese.  If my doctor would recommend that to me, i would ask his reasoning.  Most likely, it would result in me not going to that doctor anymore.

Sugar causing inflammation is not a myth.  Several studies prove the inflammatory effects of different foods on various tissues of the body.  This includes tissues in the gut and post-absorption, such as the muscles.  Sugars cause most of the inflammation associated with these responses.  You hearing that this is a myth from your aunt doesn't cut it for me.  If you have some studies with abstracts that you can link to, then please do so.  Else, I am dismissing this as hearsay.

Processed sugars are bad.  That is one of the few blanket statements I will stick to.....unless you can provide compelling evidence to the contrary.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 07:57:03 AM by Chris Salvato »

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2008, 08:03:13 AM »
This is a supporting study for what I am talking about:

Dietary pattern, inflammation, and incidence of type 2 diabetes in women

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/82/3/675

A case study done on a large population of women.  The design seems sound, despite the limitations of case studies - but it is my opinion that case studies are the most comprehensive data there is to be had on nutrition and dieting.

If you can provide counter-examples, i would be willing to read them.

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2008, 05:00:47 PM »
You see not too many people realize that sugaR is actually good for you, not too much sugar mind you but just the right amount. Many doctors encourage things such as a piece of chocolate a day, or soft drinks once in a while. The old age myth that sugar is an imflamitory towards the muscles is just false. I have an aunt who specialize in diets and fiber for people. So in the end sugar is not as bad as people say.

Again, if you're going to make bold claims, back them up with some info. Hearsay... doesn't hold up.
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Offline KC Parsons

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2008, 06:46:46 PM »
What's your guys' take on tea?

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2008, 09:01:52 AM »
Take on what? Whether tea is good for you or not? or whether it's good for hydration? Not sure what you're getting at.

Regardless tea is pretty close to a miracle drink and incredibly easy to make, whether in prepackaged bags or home made. I'm  bored and don't feel like looking up a link but here's a little something on the benefits of tea.

-Lower blood pressure
-Possibility of lower incidence of heart disease
-Incidence of lower cholesterol
-Lowered risk of many different strands of cancer
-Incidence of lower risk of hypertension
-Incidence of lowered risk of Alzheimer's

There's plenty more, just go google it. I say "incidence" because there are many different studies showing only possibilities to cause these effects, so pay attention to who issued the research before believing anything. Regardless, we've been consuming tea for several thousand years. Hard to argue...

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2008, 09:38:11 AM »
Take on what? Whether tea is good for you or not? or whether it's good for hydration? Not sure what you're getting at.

Regardless tea is pretty close to a miracle drink and incredibly easy to make, whether in prepackaged bags or home made. I'm  bored and don't feel like looking up a link but here's a little something on the benefits of tea.

-Lower blood pressure
-Possibility of lower incidence of heart disease
-Incidence of lower cholesterol
-Lowered risk of many different strands of cancer
-Incidence of lower risk of hypertension
-Incidence of lowered risk of Alzheimer's

There's plenty more, just go google it. I say "incidence" because there are many different studies showing only possibilities to cause these effects, so pay attention to who issued the research before believing anything. Regardless, we've been consuming tea for several thousand years. Hard to argue...

Uhm this all depends on the type of tea.

Black teas, not so much.

Green teas, yeah.