Author Topic: Vitamin Water!  (Read 9411 times)

Offline Mike Sechler

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Vitamin Water!
« on: June 25, 2008, 09:44:27 PM »
Ah, the ever infamous Vitamin Water. Its been said that this drink is "great for the body and tastes good too!". Its also been said that "The drink is mainly composed of crap and should be considered false advertisement".

So whats the truth?

I've decided to do some research on the product. For those of you who don't know, here is a list of the flavors they offer and there main vitamins or components

power-c  (C+Taurine)
defense  (C+Zinc)
focus  (A+Lutein)
balance  (C+Glucosamine)
endurance  (E+Ribose)
essential  (C+Calcium)
vital-t  (C+E)
energy  (B+Guarana)
b-relaxed  (B+Theanine)
rescue  (C+Egcg)
charge  (B+Electrolytes)
multi-v  (A+Zinc)
formula 50  (50% DV of 7 vitamins)
revive  (B+Potassium)
xxx  (Triple antioxidants)

[cited - www.vitaminwater.com]

So they have good ingredients... but what about those sugars? Read this excerpt from Science Line.

"Even if you were to absorb all the vitamins, vitaminwater might have trouble living up to its image as a salubrious alternative to sugary soft drinks: Each bottle of vitaminwater contains 32.5 grams, or two heaping tablespoons, of crystalline fructose. Fructose is a simple sugar that sweetens many fruits, although the crystalline fructose in vitaminwater is produced from cornstarch, not fruit, by crystallizing the fructose in fructose-enriched corn syrups."

(The site also talks on how not all the vitamins will be absorbed, and how they may be unnecessary)

[cited - http://scienceline.org/2007/12/03/ask-intagliata-vitaminwater/]

Although sugar is needed for us to function, is this to much?

Lets look at some overall nutrition facts.

There are 2.5 servings per bottle and for each serving the following applies.

Defense

Calories 50; Total Fat 0g; Sodium 0mg; Total Carbohydrate 13g; Total Sugar 13g; Protein 0g; Vitamin C 60%; vitamin B3 10%; vitamin B6 10%; vitamin B12 10%; vitamin B5 10%, Zinc 10%

Vital-t

Calories 50; Total Fat 0g; Sodium 0mg; Total Carbohydrate 13g; Total Sugar 13g; Protein 0g; Vitamin C 60%; vitamin E 20%; vitamin B3 10%; vitamin B6 10%; vitamin B12 10%; vitamin B5 10%

Stress b lemon-lime

calories 40, total fat 0g, sodium 0mg, total carbohydrate 9g, sugar 8g, protein 0g, vitamin B2 25%, vitamin B3 25%, vitamin B5 25%, vitamin B6 25%, vitamin B12 25%, vitamin C 60%, st johns wort 25mg, kava kava 25mg

Revive fruit punch

calories 50, total fat 0g, sodium 0mg, potassium 30mg, total carbohydrate 13g, sugar 12g, protein 0g, vitamin A 10%, vitamin B3 10%, vitamin B5 10%, vitamin B6 10%, vitamin B12 10%, vitamin C 60%, vitamin E 10%, gotu kola 25mg, American ginseng 25mg

[cited - http://judesmultiinfo.com/Beauty_Denominator/2007/08/18/is-vitamin-water-good-for-you/]

My View - Although Vitamin Water may not be as healthy as its made out to be, it's still a great alternative to soda and beer. It tastes good and it can be good for you in the end.

Think, Solve, Resolve.

"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed on the concrete"

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2008, 10:06:43 PM »
Interesting presentation. Seeing as this is public I'll assume this is open for discussion. My thoughts:

How can you possibly consider this drink a "healthy" option. It's still made by a soda manufacturer and carries with it all the lies and scandals they bring. When, negating starvation, is that much sugar ever beneficial in our line of work? It costs the same if not more than a soda so in the end you are still wasting money on useless "vitamins" placed in sugar water in a sad attempt at getting people to buy it based of faulty assumptions that it must act like "medicine."

B-relaxed "jackfruit-guava" - Hey Coca-Cola, your package is illegal considering the fact that your b-relaxed drink has no traces of these what so ever.

What makes a glass of water so hard? Why must we keep funding these money machines?

Offline Mike Sechler

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2008, 11:25:56 PM »
I do respect your reply.

I guess it is because I used to be such a bad drinker. Coffe in the morning and soda every hour in between. Now I have found something that has at least a trace of health to it. I do not take vitamins and am not a heavy veggie eater so I need to get them from somewhere. Also, sugar is not as bad for you as most people think. All people need it in moderation.

All in all, water is great. But for those who need something with a little taste here and there, Vitamin water is better than that beer, coffe, or soda you plan to shove down your throat.

"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed on the concrete"

Offline bjkpersonal@aim.com

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2008, 01:17:13 AM »
Interesting presentation. Seeing as this is public I'll assume this is open for discussion. My thoughts:

How can you possibly consider this drink a "healthy" option. It's still made by a soda manufacturer and carries with it all the lies and scandals they bring. When, negating starvation, is that much sugar ever beneficial in our line of work? It costs the same if not more than a soda so in the end you are still wasting money on useless "vitamins" placed in sugar water in a sad attempt at getting people to buy it based of faulty assumptions that it must act like "medicine."

B-relaxed "jackfruit-guava" - Hey Coca-Cola, your package is illegal considering the fact that your b-relaxed drink has no traces of these what so ever.

What makes a glass of water so hard? Why must we keep funding these money machines?

          Sorry, Charles, but I'm with Mike on this one.  I'm a huge carb. addict, I have a huge love of bread and horrible drinking habits, too.  Luckily, I only like two pops over more water-based drinks (Dr. Pepper & the new Canada Dry Green Tea Mix), but I still down Gatorades all the time.  It's not good for me, but I like how Gatorade makes me feel fat.  It sounds stupid, but that effect really reflects the negative effects of so much sugar in soft drinks on the body.  I mean, Arizona Green Tea with Ginseng and Honey has 70 calories per 8 oz. while Gatorade has 60 and Vitamin Water has 50.  Also, Pepsi has 100 calories per cup, and Coke does too as far as I know.  Ironically, I can drink a 2 Liter (800) calories of Pepsi a day easily (if I get beyond the upset stomach, of course), but 8 cups of Vitamin Water has half the amount, and also fills me up.  When I drink pop, I just feel like drinking more pop and eating something to wash it down with.  Still, every time I drink Vitamin Water, it weighs me down just enough to make me want to skip a meal.  It's not too bright of an idea for most people, but my diet is rich with fresh cuts of meat, large portions of fruits and vegetables and a good amount of carbohydrates (usually bread, sometimes rice or pasta).  Every time I 'spoil my appetite' with, for all practical purpose, sugar water, I skip out on my carbs and still take in my proteins, fruits and vegetables.  The only difference that effects me is that I get the proper hydration I need when I want it, 'cause for some reason I really hate the taste of plain water, all brands, purified or tap.

          As for the initial question of "Is Vitamin Water good for you?", I have to say no, hands down.  It's not even a consideration to think of Vitamin Water as a good thing, since it really isn't 'vitamin water'.  That's just the advertising of it.  However, I do feel pretty good after drinking it besides the fact that I feel weighed down.  I like tea.  It runs through you, so you can drink your fair share and expel it before it ever (feels like it) weighs you down.  Pure water really doesn't appeal to me because it just seems as if it's making me heavier.  I know it's an extremely important part of any diet, but every time I drink pure water, I feel like I'm on a fad diet saying to myself "Yeah, body, it makes you feel bloated right now, but it's really good for you, I promise".

          I'd much rather have tea over Vitamin Water because it has zero calories, comes with either caffeine or no caffeine (in case you're replacing coffee), and feels like a natural purifier, whether it is or not.  Plus, I don't know about you guys but I actually enjoy urinating, so it's not a hassle, which what some people like to call it.  If you're so non-mobile that you have to worry about getting up to pee, you have your own diet problems to tend for.

          Good day : Vitamin Water Green Tea.  :)

Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2008, 04:36:19 AM »
Most teas are good for you.  Lots of anti-oxidants.  Definitely a "purifier," as you say.

As far as vitamin water goes...  I like the stuff, but I know it's not good for you.  What I do is buy a bottle once a week, and over the course of two days, drink from that bottle at the office.  This pretty much amounts to a gulp every few hours.  Otherwise, I'm drinking water (maybe one soda here and there because I'm addicted to the stuff).  I think that's a good way to enjoy the drink but not be taken in by the excess sugar.  I know most people would gawk at just sipping at a drink like that over two days, though.

Chris's viewpoint is very strong... and one I'm inclined to agree with.  I don't like big business in many forms, and these companies really are manipulating people, using people, abusing people, and in some cases, killing people (whether by malnutrition or literally killing them...  Coca-Cola authorized the shootings of resistant labourers in Argentina in the 90s and has legal rights over all water, in all forms, in certain cities in India, causing mass dehydration and the development of manmade deserts).  However, they push products that are literally addictive to the human body, and as much as I hate it, I'm always drawn back.
Andy Tran, C.S.C.S.
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Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 07:14:07 AM »
Horray!  An interesting topic i can throw my 2¢ into!

Chris's viewpoint is very strong...

I am glad you agree with my viewpoint before i presented it  ;D I am going to assume you meant Charles' view point, but i found that typo funny :)

My View - Although Vitamin Water may not be as healthy as its made out to be, it's still a great alternative to soda and beer. It tastes good and it can be good for you in the end.

This is true.  It is better than soda and beer.  But, actually, not by much.  These drinks are actually what I would consider high carb - 50 cals per serving all due to sugar is ~12 g of sugar which means about ~30g of high glycemic sugar per bottle with NO fat and NO protein and NO fiber to buffer the uptake into the blood stream.  Also, its a liquid, which means it passes through an [empty] stomach quite quickly and goes right into the blood.  Drinking these high carb drinks as a beverage, especially between meals or to replace meals all together, is a great way to stunt your weight loss or body composition goals.

While I have coached people through dietary changes, I have, in fact, recommended vitamin waters to replace sodas and coffees.  But that is only because they have absolutely refused to start by drinking water.  If one has the willpower, making the switch to water is ideal for several reasons that really do not need to be rehashed right now.  Unfortunately, many people, especially those who are not super-motivated, tend to have this psychological fixation on sugary tasty drinks.  Usually, I would recommend something like skim milk, Special K Protein Water, or a heavy dilution of IsoPure Bottled Drink in lieu of water until they can get off the high carb sugary drink crack they are addicted to.

There are only two reasons, in my opinion, to drink these "watery soft drinks."

The first is as a means to break away from the higher sugar content in other soft drinks.  A stepping stone, if you will, to the ultimate goal of being mostly hydrated by water. 

The only other reason would be to indulge yourself.  Yes, vitamin water, imho, should be considered an indulgence for a serious, motivated athlete.

If you are happy with your body comp and don't want to lower your BF% or increase your lean mass, then Vitamin water is fine -- but this takes you out of the realm of a serious motivated athlete then since an athlete (and traceur..) should always be looking to improve themselves.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 07:16:26 AM by Chris Salvato »

Offline Mike Sechler

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 12:31:18 PM »
I like and agree with most of the statements made.

I guess my point of view my be a little of because my body consumes most everything I eat without turning it into body fat. (to a degree, of course) My diet is has a very high count of carbs, sugars, and proteins. But when I look at it, I have a very small amount of vitamins.

The vitamins C and B can easily be consumed because vitamin C and the B complex group are water-soluble and can easily enter the bloodstream with water. Vitamins A, D, E and K are fat-soluble. That means they can only enter the bloodstream to carry out their functions if they are dissolved in dietary fat, like that found in a meal.

Again, good alternative to other drinks and a supplement for some vitamins. For those who were raised on junk its and easy way to start stepping down to regular water.

(Sugar and carbs are not that bad for athletes that will burn it off the next day. We need them, just in moderation)

"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed on the concrete"

Offline Steve Low

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2008, 12:41:31 PM »
Actually a very slight mixture of salt water is more ideal that just water... if you're a heavy sweater and acutally need to replace electrolytes.

But yeah.. water >>>> anything with sugar. If you have to pick between vitamin water and soda/beer/whatever then pick vitamin water... hardly recommended though. o_o
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Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2008, 02:35:58 PM »
I guess my point of view my be a little of because my body consumes most everything I eat without turning it into body fat. (to a degree, of course) My diet is has a very high count of carbs, sugars, and proteins. But when I look at it, I have a very small amount of vitamins.

That first sentence is how many health related rumors are spread, which is why I brought it up. Just be cautious when making statements based on personal experience. Every body is different and won't necessarily have the same reaction or experience as you.

The second sentence brings up an all-too-often forgotten about relationship. People who are healthy are not always fit and people who are fit are not necessarily healthy.

Quote
The vitamins C and B can easily be consumed because vitamin C and the B complex group are water-soluble and can easily enter the bloodstream with water. Vitamins A, D, E and K are fat-soluble. That means they can only enter the bloodstream to carry out their functions if they are dissolved in dietary fat, like that found in a meal.

I'm a little confused if this was put in to back up a point or just for informative purposes. Your next sentence will bring me into my next point. 

Quote
Again, good alternative to other drinks and a supplement for some vitamins. For those who were raised on junk its and easy way to start stepping down to regular water.

This is not a supplement for vitamins unless you are consuming this drink with a meal. Sipping some of Vitamin Water's other drinks at the office with no food in your stomach will simply yield expensive excrement; drinks that carry A, E, or D(not sure i saw a vitamin water with D in it but regardless). There is no fat in this beverage and these vitamins will simply be excreted out. In reference to the B complex and C vitamins, you rarely have to worry about getting your RDA in these.

Quote
(Sugar and carbs are not that bad for athletes that will burn it off the next day. We need them, just in moderation)

Disagree and agree. Sugar is a bad form of carbohydrate that is not "needed." Good carbs are definitely necessary in almost all diets and your fitness level and specific goal will determine the moderation. A cyclist will need a hell of a lot more than an oly-lifter.

Personally speaking I try my best to avoid statements like the one you just gave at all costs. It fosters a mental association that "Oh, this candy bar is okay because I'm just going to work it off later..." This is usually how abuse starts and/or how good diets are ruined.

edit - bold for "nitpicker" Chris
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 10:37:27 PM by Charles Moreland »

Offline Mike Sechler

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2008, 07:17:56 PM »
I guess I was to tired to be specific. I'm sure most people here can make a good interpretation of what I said and im sorry if I was misleading.

"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed on the concrete"

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2008, 08:58:47 PM »
Horray!  I get to critique charlie :P

Quote
Again, good alternative to other drinks and a supplement for some vitamins. For those who were raised on junk its and easy way to start stepping down to regular water.

This is not a supplement for vitamins unless you are consuming this drink with a meal. Sipping some of Vitamin Water's other drinks at the office with no food in your stomach will simply yield expensive pee; drinks that carry A, E, or D(not sure i saw a vitamin water with D in it but regardless). There is no fat in this beverage and these vitamins will simply be urinated out. In reference to the B complex and C vitamins, you rarely have to worry about getting your RDA in these.

For things to be urinated out they must first enter into the blood stream and then filtered out by nephrons.  Since these things are not absorbed at all, they simply pass through the small intensite, large intestine and rectum relatively untouched.  Therefore, they pass through the GI tract, not the urinary tract, as their method of excretion.

Just nitpicking on ya :P

Quote
(Sugar and carbs are not that bad for athletes that will burn it off the next day. We need them, just in moderation)

Disagree and agree. Sugar is a bad form of carbohydrate that is not "needed." Good carbs are definitely necessary in almost all diets and your fitness level and specific goal will determine the moderation. A cyclist will need a hell of a lot more than an oly-lifter.

Personally speaking I try my best to avoid statements like the one you just gave at all costs. It fosters a mental association that "Oh, this candy bar is okay because I'm just going to work it off later..." This is usually how abuse starts and/or how good diets are ruined.

Firstly, sugar is a carb.  I wish people would stop saying "sugar and carbs" as if they are two different things.  Sugar (high GI carb) IS bad, whether you are an athlete or sedentary.  Sugar causes an inflammatory response which will hinder your recovery and progress as an athlete.  Lets not also forget the effect that high GI carbs have on blood insulin levels which will cause fat gains, or at the very least, hinder your fat loss.

Secondly, the diet of a cyclist and an o-lifter, in terms of carbs, is not as different as you are implying.  Realistically, anyone exceeding 50% carbs in their diet is hindering their recovery and progress as an athlete.  Cyclists may find they need carb ratios that high, but not as often as you think....unless they are an endurance athlete that is still under the false impression that carb loading is a good practice...

This only throws relative amounts of other macronutrients off by 5-10% from that of a power or strength athlete.  Not a big change at all.

Also, Charlie IS right about this "oh well i will just burn it off" mentality".  Any meal that is a cheat meal is recognized as such and usually used for emotional and psychological stability.  Being very strict on diet can be psychologically taxing and cheat meals release you from this burde.  On top of that, the body does react fairly well when you "shock" it with a cheat meal. Cheat meal frequency depends on the individual person, though.

Also, the quality of cheat meal food increases drastically as the person gets more accustomed to better foods.  Cheat meals to me, for example, used to involve heavy fried foods.  Now my cheat meals are usually a meal with more rice than i normally would have or a few extra beers/drinks - never anything overboard like a double big mac with cheese.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 09:01:12 PM by Chris Salvato »

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2008, 10:38:45 PM »
I guess I was to tired to be specific. I'm sure most people here can make a good interpretation of what I said and im sorry if I was misleading.

+1 for bringing up beneficial discussion

Offline Mike Sechler

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2008, 10:48:26 PM »
Haha.. yeah that was in relation to my other post, not the original.

Thank you guys for input. Anymore would be appreciated.

(P.S. Dont hate me for starting this post, just trying to share information  :) )

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Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2008, 10:55:36 PM »
Secondly, the diet of a cyclist and an o-lifter, in terms of carbs, is not as different as you are implying.  Realistically, anyone exceeding 50% carbs in their diet is hindering their recovery and progress as an athlete.  Cyclists may find they need carb ratios that high, but not as often as you think....unless they are an endurance athlete that is still under the false impression that carb loading is a good practice...

I mentioned specific goals, so please don't make assumptions on what I deem standard based on a general statement. I used a cyclist as an example mainly to describe a performance based athlete who wouldn't worry much about recovery. Sorry for not making that clear. A performance based cyclist will almost always exceed your precious 50% threshold.

Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2008, 06:56:00 AM »
Secondly, the diet of a cyclist and an o-lifter, in terms of carbs, is not as different as you are implying.  Realistically, anyone exceeding 50% carbs in their diet is hindering their recovery and progress as an athlete.  Cyclists may find they need carb ratios that high, but not as often as you think....unless they are an endurance athlete that is still under the false impression that carb loading is a good practice...

I mentioned specific goals, so please don't make assumptions on what I deem standard based on a general statement. I used a cyclist as an example mainly to describe a performance based athlete who wouldn't worry much about recovery. Sorry for not making that clear. A performance based cyclist will almost always exceed your precious 50% threshold.

zing, burn

since i never trained a cyclist, i will have to concede here, but i would still be inclined to disagree :P

Offline Kevin Davies

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2008, 08:27:33 AM »
Secondly, the diet of a cyclist and an o-lifter, in terms of carbs, is not as different as you are implying.  Realistically, anyone exceeding 50% carbs in their diet is hindering their recovery and progress as an athlete.  Cyclists may find they need carb ratios that high, but not as often as you think....unless they are an endurance athlete that is still under the false impression that carb loading is a good practice...

I mentioned specific goals, so please don't make assumptions on what I deem standard based on a general statement. I used a cyclist as an example mainly to describe a performance based athlete who wouldn't worry much about recovery. Sorry for not making that clear. A performance based cyclist will almost always exceed your precious 50% threshold.

zing, burn

since i never trained a cyclist, i will have to concede here, but i would still be inclined to disagree :P

I thought I would just throw my own two cents in here.  I have trained pretty heavily as a cyclist in the past and still do a fair amount of cycling still.  And for me, especially when I am riding a lot, I eat a boatload of carbs.  I never actually measured the percentage, but I know from experience if I did not eat a lot of carbs my body would start feeling wiped out after a lot of hard riding. The problem I have found is that it is too hard on my digestive system to get enough calories through other means.  I will still try to eat a good amount of protein and veggies and other good stuff and avoid straight sugar crap, but I personally have found it impossible to maintain the energy to do a lot of cycling without a fairly high carb intake.  My riding buddies, who ride a lot more than me, have had similiar experiences.  One of them did the Atkins diet for a while, but then after a while when he started riding more he couldn't keep on it, because he didn't have enough energy to maintain his riding volume (usually 150-250 miles a week).


Offline Chris Salvato

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 09:12:54 AM »
hm...

did you ever try to up your fat intake instead of carbs?

long duration exercise uses more fat than carbohydrate as an energy source

Offline Kevin Davies

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 10:18:44 AM »
long duration exercise uses more fat than carbohydrate as an energy source

My understanding is that that depends on the level of effort and duration of the endurance event*.  Certainly for 100 mile ride at 50% of VO2 max, I think that would be true.  But general a hard ride for me would be 1.5 hours at around 75-80% VO2 max (a little bit below anaerobic/lactic/steady-state/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-to-be-scientifically-accurate threshold) , where carbohydrates would still be the primary source of energy.  To bring the conversation back a little bit to vitamin water  ;), in this type of riding I have found that diluted sports drinks with a little bit of sugar to be very effective.  I have had the chance to experiment with the effect of different things, because I have a pretty standard ride that I do which is ride 26 miles to my work which takes between 1:15 to 1:40 depend on traffic and how I am feeling and how hard I want to push.  If I use straight water, my ability to maintain a high level of effort drops about an hour in.  If I use slightly diluted Gatorade (made from powder), I can maintain my hard effort the whole way.  If I try to eat some sort of solid food it usually just slows me down because I am usually breathing pretty hard and have to slow down so I can swallow. I tried milk once, but that was just a bad idea and made me want to puke.
I realize that all this has little to do with parkour, but since this were the thread had gone I thought I would throw in my personal experience.




*http://www.cptips.com/lact2.htm
  http://www.cptips.com/bscphys.htm
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 10:33:49 AM by Kevin Davies »

Offline Charles Moreland

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 10:33:50 AM »
If I use slightly diluted Gatorade (made from powder), I can maintain my hard effort the whole way.  If I try to eat some sort of solid food it usually just slows me down because I am usually breathing pretty hard and have to slow down so I can swallow. I tried milk once, but that was just a bad idea and made me want to puke.

Thanks for bringing this up Kev. Another option I forgot to mention, although it is a little specialized. It works great for steady state activity like cycling but I think personally it is quite a stretch for application to Parkour which has the comfort of stopping when necessary and snacking and the like. Definitely a good point though.

Offline Kevin Davies

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Re: Vitamin Water!
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2008, 10:45:29 AM »
It works great for steady state activity like cycling but I think personally it is quite a stretch for application to Parkour which has the comfort of stopping when necessary and snacking and the like.

Unless you are on top of a mountain and being chased by an old mountain lion who chases you all the way down the mountain and you have to run and use your mad parkour skills for an hour and a half straight to evade him.  Then you might be like "Dude, I wish I had some Gatorade!" :o . Hmm, well I guess that might fall under the specialized situation category, never mind.