Author Topic: Build our own Playground *Important*  (Read 13795 times)

Offline Adam McC

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Build our own Playground *Important*
« on: June 10, 2008, 02:13:24 PM »
Hey guys. I saw someone post an idea like this in a thread a bit ago, but nobody really paid attention, so I'm gonna put it out here a bit more.

Tk17 illustrated in his Pilgrimage video that we should not disrespect France by constantly breaking into the Dame Du Lac illegally and training. But he sure did, David Belle sure did, as well as many a traceur. So... what does that say?

We need the Dame Du Lac. It also says we need to be more respectful if we want to keep the Dame Du Lac.

So, why not make our own?

How much money would it cost to built an exact replica of the structure? If every traceur in the US, and even some UK, pitched in some money, I'm pretty confident that enough money could be gathered to build the structure. This saves many Americans a trip to France just so they can illegally break into the Dame Du Lac. I'm not saying we won't still go to France, there are tons of spots, tons of history, and tons of amazing traceurs down there, but wouldn't it be great if we had one too?

So here's what I think. We find out how much it would cost to build a replica. Same substance, shape, everything. A responsible American traceur who lives in a good area with a good climate is chosen, and every traceur willing to participate can send him money. Once he receives enough money, he pays out of the pocket for the building of the structure, and it is his property. City property means we have to deal with the city's regulations, but private property means we only have to follow the rules of the owner. So, someone mature (M2 for example) can be in charge of the structure, allow traceurs to train there, disallow any troublemakers or inexperienced traceurs who might get hurt, etc etc. Private properly would allow the rules to be set however we want them, so long as the rule setter is responsible.

What do you guys think? Any holes in my idea I've missed? Anybody know good sources to find out the cost of this project?

-Adam McC, and the Urban Current Clan.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 01:15:41 AM by AdamMcC [Feng] »

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Offline EpicMovement

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 02:27:53 PM »
Nice. I vote DC as the location, and mailing and paying checks to Primal Fitness.

Offline Graham Hughes

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 02:45:12 PM »
Sounds awesome, I'm in.

Though we'll need a lake to put the lady next to....
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 02:47:44 PM by Graham Hughes »

Offline Ryan Ford

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 02:55:53 PM »
It would be much more complicated than simply getting the money, buying the property, and building the structure. There would be all kinds of liability and insurance issues. If the French city of Lisses closed it down due to liability, do you really think that would ever fly here in the US of A is for anal? It would be cool, i just don't think it is too realistic.

Offline Samuel96

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 02:58:20 PM »
Awesome idea! I'm in if it's gonna happen.

Offline Adam McC

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2008, 03:23:26 PM »
It would be much more complicated than simply getting the money, buying the property, and building the structure. There would be all kinds of liability and insurance issues. If the French city of Lisses closed it down due to liability, do you really think that would ever fly here in the US of A is for anal? It would be cool, i just don't think it is too realistic.


We've got a very big community, Ryan. I know there are complications, but I think we're capable of overcoming them. I still feel positive about it.

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Offline Ozzi

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2008, 03:29:35 PM »
I can see where this could be possible and I can see how this would take a lot of work. Permits, lots of talking, finding the location, talking to the state. It can be done with years of preparation. I see Ryan's point but we should give this more thinking as it could be something that could happen. We dont even have to have the exact replica, maybe a little smaller, more safety features and what not.

Actually, all that money can also but put towards an actual PK park, with more features that will satisfy all the areas for a good PK training, with a mini dame du lac (without the lake :D).

It is an idea to be discussed, we all need something like this in the states. I know several parks can be build, but something big and the official would be great.

There is enough passionate traceurs within the community to be able to raise enough money, I know there is also enough people with degrees in here, lawyers and people who may have contacts.

We gotta keep in mind this is a huge network, I am pretty sure we know someone somewhere who can give us good advice on this. As for the location, somewhere in the middle of the country, like Adam said, good weather and what not, a place with cheap real state would help. We all can vote since off course everyone would want it close, I vote Hawaii  ::) ;D. Nahh really but this could be possible.

Mark, is this something you would be interesting in discussing? Can we sticky this?

I know many have thought of the idea of having a PK park being built, I think it is time we put those thought in action and try to do something. It could be privately own or state. Dont matter, several states build skate park, thats a liability also. A simple sign would take care of that. But yeah, privately own proly better.
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Offline Adam McC

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2008, 03:32:12 PM »
with a mini dame du lac (without the lake :D).



I think that would be a "Dame Du Sans Lac"

Lady of the non-existent Lake. ;)

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Offline Nick Kelly

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2008, 04:32:39 PM »
It would be much more complicated than simply getting the money, buying the property, and building the structure. There would be all kinds of liability and insurance issues. If the French city of Lisses closed it down due to liability, do you really think that would ever fly here in the US of A is for anal? It would be cool, i just don't think it is too realistic.


We've got a very big community, Ryan. I know there are complications, but I think we're capable of overcoming them. I still feel positive about it.

I'm with Ryan. I think that even if the parkour community is able to somehow put that huge sum of money together to overcome liability and zoning issues on top of building the structure (that's a LOT of money and organization), the money would be much better invested in the parkour community in other ways (like implementing community outreach programs, building up local communities etc.).

Offline Adam McC

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2008, 05:30:05 PM »
Individuals are already putting money together for their local communities and causes. Collecting money from groups in order to spread the money back out to local communities seems rather redundant. I'm just trying to think of a project that benefits all in an even way, and do something that we could not do on our own. I am open to other projects of course, but with this community, we have the ability, and I think we should explore our ability to accomplish large projects like this.

If anyone has a specific idea, then of course, let's hear it, that's the purpose of this forum and this topic.

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Offline Tyler Morita

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2008, 06:56:18 PM »
Nick, I see what you and Ryan are saying, and I agree completely with your reasoning, but not with your conclusion...

This would be an incredibly complicated project, taking several years to complete, especially with all the zoning and liability issues....

....but if we don't do it, who will?

If practicing parkour has taught me anything, it's the idea that if some obstacle seems difficult, I should respond by working harder towards my goal of overcoming it.  While it's true that there are tons of barriers to a project of this type and caliber, if no one surmounts those barriers, we will never see an incredible tool like the dam du lac on american soil.  A tool that will not only be used to improve the skills of traceurs here, but also, I believe, to spread the knowledge and love of parkour much further into america (especially if it was near a pk specific gym with training days on the structure)...effectively accomplishing the same goal as the community outreaches that were mentioned, and probably starting many more community programs throughout the country, with all the publicity something like that would get.

I don't really see the point in copying the dam du lac though.  yeah, it's cool, but if drawing up the blueprints for the ultimate parkour park (complete with safetey measures) would be as easy as drawing up the blueprints for (or copying them from) the dam du lac...I agree with Ozzi, I think we could do better than a copy.

I think we need someone fluent in legaleze to start looking at what it takes....what kind of zoning is needed, what kind of permits are needed, all those things.  Once we have a solid idea of what obstacles need to be overcome and a step by step plan detailing what it will take, I think we should then start thinking about cash flow.

In the mean time, anyone have any ideas for the perfect parkour structure(s)?

Offline Steve Zavitz

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 07:11:53 PM »
I really don't think that any state would be too accepting of a Parkour park without strict rules and guidelines for every traceur/traceuse on the premises.  It's true that many sanction skateparks, but keep in mind that every skater there has to wear helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, wrist guards, etc.  It might be more realistic money-wise for the state to sponsor a PK park, but I just don't know if it would be very useful under their terms.  I'd much rather see a privately-owned park, monitored by experienced practitioners.  There are plenty of liability forms that could be signed, and we'd all be there to watch each other's backs.  That being said, I still think it's a good idea to implement some security measures.  Dame du Lac is awesome, but it's still dangerous.  I'm not insinuating that we should create a complex rigging system; I just thing there are ways to create a safer environment without limiting movement or freedom.  Anyways, I totally agree with Tyler.  This is an obstacle that I'd love to overcome.  It'll be difficult, but think of all the benefits!  Wouldn't it be great to have a centralized area for American Parkour?  I'm all for this, and I'd love to help out in any way I can.

Offline Adam McC

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 07:18:05 PM »
I really don't think that any state would be too accepting of a Parkour park without strict rules and guidelines for every traceur/traceuse on the premises.  It's true that many sanction skateparks, but keep in mind that every skater there has to wear helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, wrist guards, etc.  It might be more realistic money-wise for the state to sponsor a PK park, but I just don't know if it would be very useful under their terms.  I'd much rather see a privately-owned park, monitored by experienced practitioners.  There are plenty of liability forms that could be signed, and we'd all be there to watch each other's backs.  That being said, I still think it's a good idea to implement some security measures.  Dame du Lac is awesome, but it's still dangerous.  I'm not insinuating that we should create a complex rigging system; I just thing there are ways to create a safer environment without limiting movement or freedom.  Anyways, I totally agree with Tyler.  This is an obstacle that I'd love to overcome.  It'll be difficult, but think of all the benefits!  Wouldn't it be great to have a centralized area for American Parkour?  I'm all for this, and I'd love to help out in any way I can.



Exactly. It wouldn't be a park, the government would have no say in the matter. Think of it like a swingset or a tree in someone's backyard. It's their property, and if someone knocks on their door and says can I play there? If he says sure, then they can. If those people sign a quick piece of paper that says I won't sue the owner no matter what, then we're done here.

Security measures might be a good idea. Beginner sessions with harnesses, etc etc.

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Offline Andrew Robillard

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 07:24:32 PM »

Exactly. It wouldn't be a park, the government would have no say in the matter. Think of it like a swingset or a tree in someone's backyard. It's their property, and if someone knocks on their door and says can I play there? If he says sure, then they can. If those people sign a quick piece of paper that says I won't sue the owner no matter what, then we're done here.

Security measures might be a good idea. Beginner sessions with harnesses, etc etc.

umm actually its a little bit more complicated than that. for something like this the land would have to be properly zoned which means that it would have to follow government guidelines and safety regulations even though its private property. you would have to look up the zoning laws for the city/county/state you want to build it in and figure out where you can build it, where you can't, where the land is zoned for what you want or if you're going to have to have the city re-zone it. your going to have to look at all the safety laws and bureaus for the area etc.

it would be a very complicated task but it is possible. also if you build a dam du lac replica it would probably be legally required to have some sort of rigging system along with maximum capacity and such.

its much more complicated than a simple liability issue.
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Offline Andy Animus Tran

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 07:42:55 PM »
Let's not forget that whoever owns it will also need to pay taxes on it annually.
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Offline Adam McC

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 07:47:37 PM »
Let's not forget that whoever owns it will also need to pay taxes on it annually.

Ah, very good point.

Yeah Rob, I hear ya man, I know it'll be complicated, but I don't want to get discouraged because of it.

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Offline Tyler Morita

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 08:15:10 PM »
What do people think of the idea of simply copying what skaters have done?  Take over a warehouse, charge a membership or entry fee...private ownership...

Some privately owned skateparks have some pretty insanely dangerous structures without rigging...how do they get around it?

if it's a matter of ownership, no prob.  If it's a matter of zoning and permits...what's that mean?  location restrictions?  cost of a zoning permit or some such garbage?

Probably going to need a staff...co-owners?

We really need someone with a legal degree...

Offline Alissa J. Bratz

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 08:20:05 PM »
Before we get too far down the Road of Ideas, I suggest we are sure we know what we're talking about in the way of legality/zoning/liability. I have seen all too many times what kind of stuff goes down when people start "armchair lawyering." :)

This is not a bad idea. I suggest the following:

1. We all commit to respecting the laws of Lisses with regard to the Dame, and commit to admiring her from a distance only when we are there training. I'm not sure how often people from the APK community get over there, so I don't know how much of an impact it would have, but if we were very public about it, and made our commitment an "event" along the lines of our Leave No Trace, I think it could be very powerful.

2. We find out from people who know firsthand (e.g. the government of Lisses) why the Dame was closed, specifically on what points of law and under which statutes its closing is covered

3. We use the information from #2 to decide if and how to proceed with building one here; alternatively (or additionally) we could use the information in #2 to try to start a global campaign to work with the French government to have her re-opened under conditions that they approve and we agree to.

Before making any concrete moves on this, though, we will need lawyers.

Just my 2c.
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Offline misstanyamae

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 08:58:14 PM »
I may be wrong, but the impressions I got from the Generations community in London were that the cities of Lisses and Evry are starting to embrace parkour a bit. I also got the impression that many think the Dame may re-open soon.
I think that there will only be one Dame du Lac. Touching the exact material that the other traceurs have touched is what makes it special... overcoming the obstacles that prevent you from climbing and training on the Dame make it special.

At the very least, it would be wrong to copy it because it is another creative person's design.

Something -like- the Dame would be best. Parkour parks would be cool too. Our creativity, our ideas, our hard work for our communities.

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Offline Andrew Robillard

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Re: Lady of the Lake *Important*
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 09:21:32 PM »
At the very least, it would be wrong to copy it because it is another creative person's design.

Something -like- the Dame would be best. Parkour parks would be cool too. Our creativity, our ideas, our hard work for our communities.

(I'm not one to ever save trips either! I love debt.)

i agree with this completely. one of the first things i thought of when i read the thread.

why copy something out there when we can build something of our own. make something the people in europe will want to come here for  ;)
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